DO's, the second class citizen?

[BORNagainSTDENT]

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It seems like people are getting offended when some one points out the stigma, even if the person who points it out doesn't believe it. If I point out existing racism does that mean I am racist?

The same exists of Caribbean MD schools, people fail to realize that these people passed the USMLE. They say things like "oh you couldn't get into an American school", but is getting into the school important or making it through.

 

[thanecyan]

I heard some MDs think that DOs were once MDs who were abducted by aliens, and given special training (OMM) that acts to bring their patients' minds under the alien's control (cranial), effectively allowing them to walk among us unseen, and plot the Earth's demise (AOA)!!

Nice

 

[Fly Army]

Several years ago when I started this journey my brother-n-law said he would rather see me go off shore than attend a DO school. At that time I was pretty sure I wanted to do Emer med and had already noticed many of the ED docs were DO. I did have a choice to attend a couple MD schools... but really just felt like the DO school I selected was a better fit for me. Fast forward to the end of MSIII early MSIV... I decided orthopaedics was what I wanted to do... and being HPSP had only six ortho programs to gun for... all of which had MDs for PDs. While rotating, I had at least three attendings (that I can remember) ask me why I picked the DO route..... I think they were somewhat curious, but they also thought it would be more difficult to match at an allo ortho program as a DO (the words used were "out sider"). Ultimately I matched... and of the 23 residents three are DOs. Truthfully, if I had it to do over (knowing I wanted ortho) I may have very well picked the allo med route..... However, going to a DO school has not kept me from being successful and attaining the training I want. And my brother-n-law (who didn't want me to attend a COM school) has asked me to consider working at their practice once I've completed my military obligation... Full circle!!!

 

[Ki45toryu]

I've met a lot of doctors, MDs and DOs, and do you know what I've noticed:

To many of them, they're the world's only first-class citizen!

It's called ego, so don't read too much into it.

Jake

good point

 

[Buckeye(OH)]

The stigma exists. I was rotating at Cook County Hospital where the Rush attendings often do their clinic cases. I was told by a particular Rush attending that he does not take "alternative students." After he saw how well I could "toe in" a retractor, he had no problem letting me throw some one hand ties. It was still a little slap in the face but I THRIVE on being the underdog.

 

[devlyyn]

99% of the problems you will encounter are just due to ignorance. You better just learn to deal with that. If you don't know how to deal with ignorant people, you have no business practicing medicine really. Usually if the person is really that interested I go on to explain "oh you know XXX from XXX is a D.O."...

 

[jabreal00]

I am new to SDN so I've been snooping around some of the subforums. I stumbled onto this topic. I graduated medical school from an allopathic school in the North East. I am now an attending (I just finished residency in 2008). I can say without equivocation that there's not much discernable difference between MD/DO, especially in primary care (IM, Peds, FP, OB/Gyn or Psych).

I have to admit, a DO student will have a more difficult time getting an allopathic residency in a surgical subspeciality (ENT, ortho, Neurosurg, Optho) but it can be done. But one has to remember, allopathic students also have a hard time matching in those competitive residencies. Similar difficulties for DO applicants to IM, Psych, Peds residencies at elite programs (MGH, UCSF, JHP etc). The program directors there are still very much the old guard.

Where I practice now (midwest), it's a mix of MD/DO. Many of the subspecialist (GI, Heme/onc, Ortho, Cards) in the surrounding areas are DOs. The new fight looming for doctors especially for primary care doctors are the midlevels (nurse practitioners and PAs). They are lobbying to practice medicine independently. This push is more vigorous especially in anesthesiology. CRNAs, which is basically a nurse who did 2yrs of OTJ with an anesthesiologist wants full independent practice.

Younger docs look at MD=DO, IMHO.

---------------- Listening to: Sofa Surfers - Sofa Rockers via FoxyTunes

 

[nlax30]

Where I practice now (midwest), it's a mix of MD/DO. Many of the subspecialist (GI, Heme/onc, Ortho, Cards) in the surrounding areas are DOs. The new fight looming for doctors especially for primary care doctors are the midlevels (nurse practitioners and PAs). They are lobbying to practice medicine independently. This push is more vigorous especially in anesthesiology. CRNAs, which is basically a nurse who did 2yrs of OTJ with an anesthesiologist wants full independent practice.

Younger docs look at MD=DO, IMHO.

---------------- Listening to: Sofa Surfers - Sofa Rockers via FoxyTunes

Good post, thanks for the info!

For the DOs around you in subspecialties, any experience with ones who did an osteo residency followed by an allo fellowship? Or do you mostly see them sticking with either all osteo for residency/fellowship or all allo for residency/fellowship?

 

[mentulbloc80]

Having graduated from a DO school, and having done very well, and landing a competitive residency at university allopathic hospital in a northeast city I can say that at no point in my education did I feel inferior or less qualified then an MD. The only part of my education I was dissapointed with was my 3rd year clerkships - as DO's we are relegated to rotate at small community hospitals which, IMHO, pale in comparison to the large volume and academics one could be exposed to at large primary affiliated quaternary care center.

But with all that being said, in my opinion, one should pursue the MD route over the DO route if possible. The osteopathic philosophy is, for lack of a better word, a fraud, or atleast it has become one. The textbooks we use are all written by MD's, with the exception of the OMM books (which are badly written anyways and are unreferenced). The hospitals we train in are staffed by 90% MD's. Only 5% of DO's actually do OMM. We claim better palpatory technique, and maybe we have an advantage at the start of residency, but by the end, MD or DO can equally assess organomegaly. So I ask, where is this unique philosophy, where is this holy grail of holistic medicine, where is the true difference? The answer I have come up with is there is none.

So if there is no difference, no true life changing philosophy or perspective, why deal with DO discrimination *which does exist when applying for residencies and teaching positions at university hospitals, the patients that are confused as to whether or not you are a chiropractor or if you can write meds, etc...

If you want to be an community FP, doing a DO route is good choice. If you want competitive field like rads, surgery, ortho, derm, even internal medicine at a university you could work half as hard, perform 1/3 less on the USMLE and still have a better chance at landing an allo residency if you want to an MD school. It can be a real heartbreaking and frustrating experience going through this, and I can say having gone through it, becoming a DO wasn't worth the grief.

 

[mentulbloc80]

The school (MD, DO, Carib) does...not.......matter. What matters is how well you do on your boards and residency. Take this scenario: a grad from Harvard who did poorly on the boards, a grad from KCUMB who did average on the boards, and a Carib grad who did excellent on the boards...does school really matter? Most definitely not. MD, DO...whaaatever.

This is entirely misleading, and false. You are either premed or just starting and have no idea. If you think you are getting Harvard or Hopkins from a DO school or even a low tier MD school b/c you have good numbers you are near delusional. Top programs cherry pick from other top programs, and despite all the debate about which DO school is the best, even the "best DO school" is not considered tops by any US News top ten ranked hospital. Please stop kidding yourselves. And to the poster who asked about doing a DO residency then MD fellowship, I can say for medicine this is near impossible.

If you want GI or cardio you better land a solid university program, or a place that you won't mind staying for fellowship but expect to do a cheif year.

As a side lots of DO schools post match lists, like IM Hopkins or Columbia. What they don't post is that it is not the main hopkins but a secondary affiliate like Bayview or Sinai, or for columbia St Lukes Roosevelt not Presbyterian. Pay attn to these details.

 

[scotchtapetest]

This is entirely misleading, and false. You are either premed or just starting and have no idea. If you think you are getting Harvard or Hopkins from a DO school or even a low tier MD school b/c you have good numbers you are near delusional. Top programs cherry pick from other top programs, and despite all the debate about which DO school is the best, even the "best DO school" is not considered tops by any US News top ten ranked hospital. Please stop kidding yourselves. And to the poster who asked about doing a DO residency then MD fellowship, I can say for medicine this is near impossible.

If you want GI or cardio you better land a solid university program, or a place that you won't mind staying for fellowship but expect to do a cheif year.

As a side lots of DO schools post match lists, like IM Hopkins or Columbia. What they don't post is that it is not the main hopkins but a secondary affiliate like Bayview or Sinai, or for columbia St Lukes Roosevelt not Presbyterian. Pay attn to these details.

So following your argument even if you go to a MD school unless you are attending a TOP MD school you are not going to get a residency at the TOP residency programs. I don't think anyone in their right mind is arguing that going to a DO school is the same as going to Hopkins, but people also forget that attending a MD is school is also NOT like attending Hopkins.


This goes back to what I've been arguing in my other posts. People refer to MD schools as if all are the same. There are over 120 MD schools out of which the top 20 are extremely prestigious and hard to get in. But they admit less than 10% of all future MDs so the other 90% have to attend other schools. This is the same in any field and not restricted just to medicine. If you get your JD from Harvard you have a better chance of getting a fellowship/mentorship/job at a better place and that goes without saying. However, the vast majority of lawyers and physicians do not attend the top schools (that's why they are the TOP schools).


The major issue becomes whether one is at a disadvantage attending a DO schools as opposed to your run-of-the-mill state MD school (i.e. the other 100 allopathic schools). There are varying opinions on this, especially on SDN, and you may feel that there is a disadvantage and some may not. So whether one is able to be accepted as a resident in Hopkins is not the measure because they only accept very limited number of people. We should always consider the other 90% of individuals (MD and DO) who do not get accepted at Hopkins (or other top residencies) and whether based on their academic performance and past/present experiences they have faced discrimination when it comes to residency just because of their initials/degrees.


By the way, in your other post you mentioned that 90% of the staff at your training hospitals were MDs, that is a very encouraging sign to me because that shows that DOs are over represented in such hospitals. In this country, 90% of all physicians are MDs and the 10% DOs are more represented in FP than in hospital based practices compared to MDs. Therefore, statistically speaking, 10% DO staff is actually higher than what one would expect.

 

[SteelCity]

Top programs cherry pick from other top programs, and despite all the debate about which DO school is the best, even the "best DO school" is not considered tops by any US News top ten ranked hospital. Please stop kidding yourselves.

Isnt Michigan State COM ranked in the top 10 according to newsweek?

 

[mentulbloc80]

Isnt Michigan State COM ranked in the top 10 according to newsweek?

....for best training for primary care doc's, so if thats what you want, not too shabby.

 

[mentulbloc80]

So following your argument even if you go to a MD school unless you are attending a TOP MD school you are not going to get a residency at the TOP residency programs. I don’t think anyone in their right mind is arguing that going to a DO school is the same as going to Hopkins, but people also forget that attending a MD is school is also NOT like attending Hopkins.


This goes back to what I’ve been arguing in my other posts. People refer to MD schools as if all are the same. There are over 120 MD schools out of which the top 20 are extremely prestigious and hard to get in. But they admit less than 10% of all future MDs so the other 90% have to attend other schools. This is the same in any field and not restricted just to medicine. If you get your JD from Harvard you have a better chance of getting a fellowship/mentorship/job at a better place and that goes without saying. However, the vast majority of lawyers and physicians do not attend the top schools (that’s why they are the TOP schools).


The major issue becomes whether one is at a disadvantage attending a DO schools as opposed to your run-of-the-mill state MD school (i.e. the other 100 allopathic schools). There are varying opinions on this, especially on SDN, and you may feel that there is a disadvantage and some may not. So whether one is able to be accepted as a resident in Hopkins is not the measure because they only accept very limited number of people. We should always consider the other 90% of individuals (MD and DO) who do not get accepted at Hopkins (or other top residencies) and whether based on their academic performance and past/present experiences they have faced discrimination when it comes to residency just because of their initials/degrees.


By the way, in your other post you mentioned that 90% of the staff at your training hospitals were MDs, that is a very encouraging sign to me because that shows that DOs are over represented in such hospitals. In this country, 90% of all physicians are MDs and the 10% DOs are more represented in FP than in hospital based practices compared to MDs. Therefore, statistically speaking, 10% DO staff is actually higher than what one would expect.

Its not a matter of debate as to whether a run of the mill state school does better for match, its a fact. Suny Downstate is one of the lower end medical schools in the country, but consistently places people into NYU, MGH and if you don't believe go look at their match list, it is posted on their website, compare it what you consider the best DO school.

As a DO your odds of landing these places is much much less then if you went to the dumpiest MD school out there. Often times you are just screened out before they even review your CV. When they get the applications, they have a computer program where they can select out candidates, for instance they will click off: above 235 usmle, with honors medicine, with Alpha Omega Alpha junior honor society. DO schools don't participate in AOA honor society and some students don't take the USMLE. Therefore you will be screened out even before they see your DO degree. At least if you attend a crappy MD school your application has the potential to viewed.

And the 90% of DO's at my hospitals is not a surprising number... they are all community hospitals chuck full of medicaide/care patients. Go to a large private hospital or a large academic center like Hopkins and see how many DO's are on staff there....🙄

 

[Cp22kjer]

I am new to SDN so I've been snooping around some of the subforums. I stumbled onto this topic. I graduated medical school from an allopathic school in the North East. I am now an attending (I just finished residency in 2008). I can say without equivocation that there's not much discernable difference between MD/DO, especially in primary care (IM, Peds, FP, OB/Gyn or Psych).

I have to admit, a DO student will have a more difficult time getting an allopathic residency in a surgical subspeciality (ENT, ortho, Neurosurg, Optho) but it can be done. But one has to remember, allopathic students also have a hard time matching in those competitive residencies. Similar difficulties for DO applicants to IM, Psych, Peds residencies at elite programs (MGH, UCSF, JHP etc). The program directors there are still very much the old guard.

Where I practice now (midwest), it's a mix of MD/DO. Many of the subspecialist (GI, Heme/onc, Ortho, Cards) in the surrounding areas are DOs. The new fight looming for doctors especially for primary care doctors are the midlevels (nurse practitioners and PAs). They are lobbying to practice medicine independently. This push is more vigorous especially in anesthesiology. CRNAs, which is basically a nurse who did 2yrs of OTJ with an anesthesiologist wants full independent practice.

Younger docs look at MD=DO, IMHO.

---------------- Listening to: Sofa Surfers - Sofa Rockers via FoxyTunes

Good post, thanks for sharing.

 

[Lokhtar]

An admission committee guy came to speak to us and said while they do the same things, medicine is a very hierarchical world, and if you do academic medicine, there will definitely be a perception against you. He said outside of academia, it won't matter much/at all.

 

[digitlnoize]

Isnt Michigan State COM ranked in the top 10 according to newsweek?

Exactly what I was thinking. That person has no idea what they're talking about.

I won't pretend that discrimination doesn't exist. However, the people that are still doing it are equal to the KKK in my opinion. In both smarts and numbers.

I know for a fact that I am getting a better education than I would have received at my allo options...I talk to my friends there and they're not as happy and not learning even remotely as much as me.

Bring it USMLE. Bring it.

 

[TexasTriathlete]

There are more DO's out there these days, so DO's are becoming pretty widely-accepted. If you look at emergency medicine, there is virtually no bias against DO's, even at the most prestigious programs.

Why? Because EM is a relatively new specialty, full of young docs. These guys came up training with DO's, and being taught by them in class. As the old ****s die off, and DO's become more widespread, the bias will further be weeded out.

And this is clearly for the better, since programs will be looking more and more for the most qualified applicants.

 

[MCVmedstudent]

In EM there seems to be much less of a stigma... i wouldnt go so far as to say it is completely not there but it is nowhere near as severe as in the surgical subspecialties.

 

[Instatewaiter]

This goes back to what I've been arguing in my other posts. People refer to MD schools as if all are the same. There are over 120 MD schools out of which the top 20 are extremely prestigious and hard to get in. But they admit less than 10% of all future MDs so the other 90% have to attend other schools. This is the same in any field and not restricted just to medicine. If you get your JD from Harvard you have a better chance of getting a fellowship/mentorship/job at a better place and that goes without saying. However, the vast majority of lawyers and physicians do not attend the top schools (that's why they are the TOP schools).

The major issue becomes whether one is at a disadvantage attending a DO schools as opposed to your run-of-the-mill state MD school (i.e. the other 100 allopathic schools).

Even those lower tier MD schools place people in very competitive residencies- for instance there is a school that comes to mind that is often talked about on SDN as low-tier that recently sent 1 student to UCSF neurosurg and 1 to yale neurosurg.

If you are curious about whether you have a higher advantage to attend at DO school or a run of the mill state school just look at some match lists and it should be obvious.

I know for a fact that I am getting a better education than I would have received at my allo options...I talk to my friends there and they're not as happy and not learning even remotely as much as me.

Name that defense mechanism...

 

[JaggerPlate]

Even those lower tier MD schools place people in very competitive residencies- for instance there is a school that comes to mind that is often talked about on SDN as low-tier that recently sent 1 student to UCSF neurosurg and 1 to yale neurosurg.

If you are curious about whether you have a higher advantage to attend at DO school or a run of the mill state school just look at some match lists and it should be obvious.

Ehh ... I agree with you in theory, but every match list I've seen from a DO school this year (including a ton that are new to very new in the medical world) has been fantastic. It's stupid to pretend that doing poor at an allo school will get you that derm spot just because you're coming from an MD school, just as it's stupid to believe you'll never face any bias as DO and you can land ACGME integrated plastics if you work reeel hard and eat your vegetables. It pretty much breaks down to how hard you'll work/how smart you are. Is the road generally less traveled for two smart and dedicated students, with one in allo and one in osteo matching ACGME ... sure, it's easier for allo. But, you shouldn't count on it.

 

[SteelCity]

Ehh ... I agree with you in theory, but every match list I've seen from a DO school this year (including a ton that are new to very new in the medical world) has been fantastic. It's stupid to pretend that doing poor at an allo school will get you that derm spot just because you're coming from an MD school, just as it's stupid to believe you'll never face any bias as DO and you can land ACGME integrated plastics if you work reeel hard and eat your vegetables. It pretty much breaks down to how hard you'll work/how smart you are. Is the road generally less traveled for two smart and dedicated students, with one in allo and one in osteo matching ACGME ... sure, it's easier for allo. But, you shouldn't count on it.

very well said

 

[mentulbloc80]

Ehh ... I agree with you in theory, but every match list I've seen from a DO school this year (including a ton that are new to very new in the medical world) has been fantastic. It's stupid to pretend that doing poor at an allo school will get you that derm spot just because you're coming from an MD school, just as it's stupid to believe you'll never face any bias as DO and you can land ACGME integrated plastics if you work reeel hard and eat your vegetables. It pretty much breaks down to how hard you'll work/how smart you are. Is the road generally less traveled for two smart and dedicated students, with one in allo and one in osteo matching ACGME ... sure, it's easier for allo. But, you shouldn't count on it.

The DO match lists are not that impressive. Every year DO's do well in anesthesia, PMR, and pathology. In other fields people land impressive places in remote locations like Mayo, CCF, Dartmouth, even pitt etc.. because they are remote and competitive applicants from MD schools tend to want to be by coasts and and in cities. Honestly, look at the "worst" MD school you can think of and compare their match list to the "best" DO school.

If you want a university program for other then the above mentioned fields in a "desirable" location there is no arguement that u would have been better off at an MD school, plain and simple. Being in the NYC area, I have friends with 250+ on both steps, research, and are more importantly normal looking/talking people that got snubbed by every single NYC university hospital (not even offered an interview), and even some community programs with just a university affiliate. Conversely Downstate, Stony-Brook, Upstate consistently ranked in the lower tiers of medical schools nearly always places not one, but a 10+ a year into nyc hospitals like Columbia, Mt Sinai, Cornell etc..

Your optimism speaks lengths about your inexperience or your blinding pride in osteopathy. If you think, honestly, that you are going to land an ACGME spot in a direct plastics residency from a DO school without being the first blood relative of program director based soley on hard work you are sorely mistaken. You should honestly stop misleading people, or trying to be the happy messiah on this forum as it can cause people to rank less programs and not match, or get their hearts set on something unattainable. so spare me the 😍 for osteopathy and start talking some sense already.

 

[mentulbloc80]

Exactly what I was thinking. That person has no idea what they're talking about.

I won't pretend that discrimination doesn't exist. However, the people that are still doing it are equal to the KKK in my opinion. In both smarts and numbers.

I know for a fact that I am getting a better education than I would have received at my allo options...I talk to my friends there and they're not as happy and not learning even remotely as much as me.

Bring it USMLE. Bring it.

My retort to this is "who cares about you being happy." 10 years from now what you learned in years 1 and 2 in medical school about the kreb's cycle and prussian blue stains will mean nothing. The only thing that will mean something is ultimately your end result of your medical school career: The medical residency in the hospital you want. Your friends may be more miserable now, but your happiness will seem much more short sighted when you "bring on the USMLE" and still not get interviews at Umich ann arbor, Uchicago, or Northwestern (unless of course you are looking at anesthesia, pmr, or path).

Furthermore I can garauntee you not a single program director knows that mich com is on the pimary care best hospital list and if they did, i'm sure they will happily point you in the direction of FP.

 

[J1515]

This is entirely misleading, and false. You are either premed or just starting and have no idea. If you think you are getting Harvard or Hopkins from a DO school or even a low tier MD school b/c you have good numbers you are near delusional. Top programs cherry pick from other top programs, and despite all the debate about which DO school is the best, even the "best DO school" is not considered tops by any US News top ten ranked hospital. Please stop kidding yourselves. And to the poster who asked about doing a DO residency then MD fellowship, I can say for medicine this is near impossible.

If you want GI or cardio you better land a solid university program, or a place that you won't mind staying for fellowship but expect to do a cheif year.

As a side lots of DO schools post match lists, like IM Hopkins or Columbia. What they don't post is that it is not the main hopkins but a secondary affiliate like Bayview or Sinai, or for columbia St Lukes Roosevelt not Presbyterian. Pay attn to these details.

I suggest you take a look at NYCOM's matchlist my friend. They matched to both Hopkins and Harvard, as well as St. Lukes Roosevelt which they list separately. Also, I thought I might add I have no interest in doing my residency at either of those places and therefore am not applying there ::gasp::

Furthermore, as a 4th year I got plenty of interviews at what you would like to call "competitive" allo programs. My numbers and LORs spoke for themselves.

Eventually you will learn that there is more to practicing medicine than letters and names.

 

[mentulbloc80]

Actually let me post it for you, Downstates match list, read it and weep from one of the worst MD schools in the country both on happiness and INH funding:
http://sls.downstate.edu/student_affairs/residency/res_place_2009.html

Note the # of harvards, ivy's leagues, university hospitals, ortho, optho, urology, derm etc.......

 

[J1515]

I had a conversation with a senior doctor and director at a well known medical hospital here on the east coast,

Anytime a thread starts off like this you know you are going to be in for some good solid quality entertainment

 

[J1515]

Actually let me post it for you, Downstates match list, read it and weep from one of the worst MD schools in the country both on happiness and INH funding:
http://sls.downstate.edu/student_affairs/residency/res_place_2009.html

Note the # of harvards, ivy's leagues, university hospitals, ortho, optho, urology, derm etc.......

Wow, someone who supposedly graduated from medical school and is still obsessed with which are the "best" and "worst" schools. Sad.

Something noteworthy for the people who still care about what are the "best" and "worst" residencies, Downstate matched people at NUMC for radiology - one of the supposed worst hospitals for residency in the tri-state area. Actually overall, Downstate's match list looks quite similar to NYCOM's.

 

[p30doc]

Your optimism speaks lengths about your inexperience or your blinding pride in osteopathy. If you think, honestly, that you are going to land an ACGME spot in a direct plastics residency from a DO school without being the first blood relative of program director based soley on hard work you are sorely mistaken. You should honestly stop misleading people, or trying to be the happy messiah on this forum as it can cause people to rank less programs and not match, or get their hearts set on something unattainable. so spare me the 😍 for osteopathy and start talking some sense already.

fyi you ignored the cruel part of his statement " just as it's stupid to believe you'll never face any bias as DO and you can land ACGME integrated plastics if you work reeel hard and eat your vegetables."

 

[digitlnoize]

My retort to this is "who cares about you being happy." 10 years from now what you learned in years 1 and 2 in medical school about the kreb's cycle and prussian blue stains will mean nothing. The only thing that will mean something is ultimately your end result of your medical school career: The medical residency in the hospital you want. Your friends may be more miserable now, but your happiness will seem much more short sighted when you "bring on the USMLE" and still not get interviews at Umich ann arbor, Uchicago, or Northwestern (unless of course you are looking at anesthesia, pmr, or path).

Furthermore I can garauntee you not a single program director knows that mich com is on the pimary care best hospital list and if they did, i'm sure they will happily point you in the direction of FP.

I don't want to be anywhere NEAR those places. Brrrr. And Crime. I have a kid that I don't want to get shot, thanks!

I'll take my "crappy" community residency, then I'll work in my "crappy" community hospital or office. I'm old...I have no illusions about path to NOT academia.

I want the USMLE to "bring it" because I want a good score. Then I can go to the places that I want to go...and not where US News tells me.

Places I don't want to do residency:
1. Hopkins (see #4)
2. Harvard (see #4)
3. Anywhere in Chicago (see #5)
4. Anywhere in a Huge Major City (I hate the traffic and the crime).
5. Anywhere cold.

All that being said, I'll take what I can get, but I'm not gunning for the big leagues here. I just want to be a good fraking doctor and take good care of my patients. I don't need to go to the mighty "Northwestern" to do that.

If they don't want me because of my initials, that's their loss, and I wouldn't have wanted to go there anyway, MD or DO. If they discriminate against the letters after your name, they're discriminating against other things too and they probably wouldn't have taken me because I'm too: Short, Old, White, Bald, Smart, Paternal, Funny, Cute, or Hard Working.

Screw that place. 😀

 

[mentulbloc80]

I suggest you take a look at NYCOM's matchlist my friend. They matched to both Hopkins and Harvard, as well as St. Lukes Roosevelt which they list separately. Also, I thought I might add I have no interest in doing my residency at either of those places and therefore am not applying there ::gasp::

Furthermore, as a 4th year I got plenty of interviews at what you would like to call "competitive" allo programs. My numbers and LORs spoke for themselves.

Eventually you will learn that there is more to practicing medicine than letters and names.

No, NYCOM did not get hopkins this year or the last. Hopkins was at Bayview not the university hopital, Harvard for a specialized Child Neuro program. And if there was one or two people that did, so what, one or two over the course of 30 years with 300 people graduating each year and you think its significant? And about St Lukes Roosevelt: You obviously don't know anything about St. Lukes/Roosevelt, a hospital with 90% FMG's as residents and terrible fellowship placement for medicine.

And listen, I am not saying that the best programs are the ones with the best names, but if you are interested in any of those names you would be tons better off at an MD school, so why put a ceiling on your potential as a DO.

On a side note, as a social experiment, why don't you apply to NW, UChicago, or UMich and lets us know if you get an interview, it will cost you 10 dollars.

 

[digitlnoize]

No, NYCOM did not get hopkins this year or the last. Hopkins was at Bayview not the university hopital, Harvard for a specialized Child Neuro program. And if there was one or two people that did, so what, one or two over the course of 30 years with 300 people graduating each year and you think its significant? And about St Lukes Roosevelt: You obviously don't know anything about St. Lukes/Roosevelt, a hospital with 90% FMG's as residents and terrible fellowship placement for medicine.

And listen, I am not saying that the best programs are the ones with the best names, but if you are interested in any of those names you would be tons better off at an MD school, so why put a ceiling on your potential as a DO.

On a side note, as a social experiment, why don't you apply to NW, UChicago, or UMich and lets us know if you get an interview, it will cost you 10 dollars.

For anyone who wants to know where DO's can match:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=612056

Page 2 includes an Anesthesia match at UChicago. Gasp. 😱🙄🙄🙄

Someone interested in going to the places you name off would probably not be applying to a DO school anyways. Likely. Most of us don't care about the "prestige" or the "name" of the institution. It's really not that big of a deal. I'm not into playing that game. If you are...I feel sorry for you. 🙁

 

[mentulbloc80]

Something noteworthy for the people who still care about what are the "best" and "worst" residencies, Downstate matched people at NUMC for radiology - one of the supposed worst hospitals for residency in the tri-state area. Actually overall, Downstate's match list looks quite similar to NYCOM's.

2 people did out of close to 20, but I guess you missed the NYU, Columbia X2, Mt Sinai, Brown, UCLA and CCF. Find me this in NYCOM's match list, in fact, why don't you call NYU and ask them if they will take a DO with perfect board scores, highly published research, and excellent letters. I can tell you, the answer is no.

This is not meant to glorify MD programs, rather illustrate the realistic limitations DO's face.

 

[J1515]

No, NYCOM did not get hopkins this year or the last. Hopkins was at Bayview not the university hopital, Harvard for a specialized Child Neuro program. And if there was one or two people that did, so what, one or two over the course of 30 years with 300 people graduating each year and you think its significant? And about St Lukes Roosevelt: You obviously don't know anything about St. Lukes/Roosevelt, a hospital with 90% FMG's as residents and terrible fellowship placement for medicine.
.

I didn't say anything about the quality of St. Lukes. I said they list it separately and don't pretend it's a Columbia residency as you claimed. Columbia and Cornell are known for not being kind to DO students. There are a few others. Big deal. I'm not sure why anyone would be so hell bent on doing a residency at a place with a specific name as opposed to choosing based on teaching, attendings, research, call sched, fellowship opportunities. There are plenty of hospitals in the NY area that fit those criteria. The sad fact of the matter is DO schools admit plenty of sub-par applicants who wouldn't be able to get these "big name" residencies whether they had the initials M.D. or G.O.D. following their names. Incidentaly, NYCOM matched an allo Derm recently in addition to the osteopathic derm residencies. From what I understand, not many people even applied Derm that year (this is hearsay). The people that want these so-called "impossible" places you mention can get it and have gotten it if they are academically capable.

 

[J1515]

2 people did out of close to 20,

Doesn't matter. 2 people were forced into the "worst" hospital in the tri-state area, and having the magical M.D. behind their name didn't help.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but NYCOM matched anesthesiology, pathology, psychiatry, and of course PM&R at NYU in recent years, as well as path and PM&R at Mt. Sinai, and IM at CCF. You should probably stop speaking now.

 

[digitlnoize]

2 people did out of close to 20, but I guess you missed the NYU, Columbia X2, Mt Sinai, Brown, UCLA and CCF. Find me this in NYCOM's match list, in fact, why don't you call NYU and ask them if they will take a DO with perfect board scores, highly published research, and excellent letters. I can tell you, the answer is no.

This is not meant to glorify MD programs, rather illustrate the realistic limitations DO's face.

You still haven't explained how NOT going to NYU is a limitation. 😕😕😕

To me, that's a plus. You still get to be a (insert specialty here). I don't see any "limitation" there. Shucks, I didn't get to live in NYC as a Resident. How will I ever get to experience a cockroach-filled, shoebox-sized apartment now?

And spare me the garbage about how DO's can't be a ______. Because you will find DO's in every specialty. All of them. Every. Last. One. Lots of them, in fact. Derm, plastics, rads, etc...DO's are there. Hell, I worked with a guy for 6 months before I glanced at a chart and realized he was a DO...

 

[SteelCity]

Your optimism speaks lengths about your inexperience or your blinding pride in osteopathy. If you think, honestly, that you are going to land an ACGME spot in a direct plastics residency from a DO school without being the first blood relative of program director based soley on hard work you are sorely mistaken. You should honestly stop misleading people, or trying to be the happy messiah on this forum as it can cause people to rank less programs and not match, or get their hearts set on something unattainable. so spare me the 😍 for osteopathy and start talking some sense already.

I really think you misread what jagger was trying to say, he was trying to imply that it is obviously an uphill battle for a DO matching ACGME and even with stellar stats your still probably the underdog in matching to these "top programs". I dont think anyone in here is doubting that, but for you to make it seem like its impossible just because your friends with a 250 on the step 1 couldn't do it, it just simply makes you look inexperienced and bitter. Thats like me posting someone I know who got a 240 on step 1, which got him into Yale's GS, and posting a forum named "lollipops and fudge cycles for osteopaths" Get real, I know its hard, people get it.

 

[J1515]

why don't you call NYU and ask them if they will take a DO with perfect board scores, highly published research, and excellent letters. I can tell you, the answer is no.

NYCOM matched anesthesiology, pathology, psychiatry, and of course PM&R at NYU in recent years, as well as path and PM&R at Mt. Sinai, and IM at CCF.

If there is anything else I can do to help alleviate your misunderstanding of the DO profession please don't hesitate to let me know.

 

[TexasTriathlete]

So far, every single class that has been graduated by GA-PCOM has accounted for no less than half of the ACGME radiology matches at MCG. We are an allo radiology ****ing powerhouse.

 

[Peptoboy]

2 people did out of close to 20, but I guess you missed the NYU, Columbia X2, Mt Sinai, Brown, UCLA and CCF. Find me this in NYCOM's match list, in fact, why don't you call NYU and ask them if they will take a DO with perfect board scores, highly published research, and excellent letters. I can tell you, the answer is no.

This is not meant to glorify MD programs, rather illustrate the realistic limitations DO's face.

You'll have to excuse "mental", if you have ever seen comments made by him in other threads it would immediately become apparent that he is often ignorant in his postings.

 

[mentulbloc80]

Doesn't matter. 2 people were forced into the "worst" hospital in the tri-state area, and having the magical M.D. behind their name didn't help.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but NYCOM matched anesthesiology, pathology, psychiatry, and of course PM&R at NYU in recent years, as well as path and PM&R at Mt. Sinai, and IM at CCF. You should probably stop speaking now.

I keep saying path, anesthesia and PMR are DO friendly. In fact year after NYU takes a predominance of DO's from NYCOM. These fields have been "open" since the early 90's. CCF, while one of the best hospitals in the country, is in cleveland, and because of locale and being in the DO friendly midwest is definitely more open to DO students. It is also very open to FMG's which populate 25% of the hospital. You'll find the same at Mayo located in north american tundra.

As far as fellowship opportunities, especially for medicine, if you are interested in GI or Cardio you better attend a university hospital or a place that you wouldn't mind doing a cheif year at. Compare NYU's match list with North Shore Manhasset's, arguably the best "community" program in the surrouding area. Both good programs, one with a name that gets you into fellowships afterwards, the other struggles.

NYCOM'er's love NYC. They apply there in abundance for all the specialties, and aside from the above mentioned fields, have yet to match at any of the university hospitals even for what some would consider less competitive fields such as medicine and pyschiatry. My opinion is you are either interested in NYCOM, or attending there and are trying to defend it.

And the two Downstaters that ended up NUMC I'm sure ended up there because of low numbers and class rank, but still took slots from NYCOM students who were trying to match *anywhere* for radiology. Furthermore there numbers were probably significantly lower then NYCOMer's who may have matched at equally terrible programs.

One girl matched for Derm. at montefiore in the bronx. Stellar to say the least. Ask what her father does smart guy. To continue to add perspective, examples are given about great matches, but they are between 1-8 people in a class of 200-300.

And to all those who throw hate on "name places" and university hospitals why do was DO's continue to revel on them when people place into them if they are truly nothing special.

 

[mentulbloc80]

And to J1515, since I think you are a NYCOM student...Ask how many students at NYCOM went unmatched this year....drumroll....

49

Nearly 50 people out of 300. 1 out of 6 did not match. Osteopathic students in the DO match this year: 40% did not match.

Continue to hold onto your pipe dreams about NYC chief you are in for some real heartbreak. As a heads up google "Freida." This will pull up a search engine for all MD residency programs in the country. Find the big 5 hospitals (NYU, Monte, Columbia, Cornell, Mt Sinai) and see how many have DO's in there medicine program. Let everyone know what you find, because apparently I am very ignorant.

 

[digitlnoize]

NYCOM'er's love NYC. They all apply there for all the specialties, and aside from the above mentioned have yet to match at any of the university hospitals. My opinion is you are either interested in NYCOM, or attending there and are trying to defend it.

And to all those who throw hate on "name places" and university hospitals why do was DO's continue to revel on them when people place into them if they are truly nothing special.

NYCOM-ers my love NYC, but I sure don't. Nice place to visit, wouldn't live there for ANYTHING.

DO's talk up the "name places" because people like YOU say it can't be done.

For the last time: THE LETTERS AFTER YOUR NAME DON'T MATTER. WHERE YOU TRAIN DOESN'T MATTER. WHAT COUNTS IS HAVING A LICENSE TO PRACTICE MEDICINE AND BEING A GOOD DOCTOR.

 

[SteelCity]

As a heads up google "Freida." This will pull up a search engine for all MD residency programs in the country. Find the big 5 hospitals (NYU, Monte, Columbia, Cornell, Mt Sinai) and see how many have DO's in there medicine program. Let everyone know what you find, because apparently I am very ignorant.

NYC hates DO's, got it. Wanted to stay in florida anyway.

 

[J1515]

And to J1515, since I think you are a NYCOM student...Ask how many students at NYCOM went unmatched this year....drumroll....

49

Nearly 50 people out of 300. 1 out of 6 did not match. Osteopathic students in the DO match this year: 40% did not match.

Continue to hold onto your pipe dreams about NYC chief you are in for some real heartbreak. As a heads up google "Freida." This will pull up a search engine for all MD residency programs in the country. Find the big 5 hospitals (NYU, Monte, Columbia, Cornell, Mt Sinai) and see how many have DO's in there medicine program. Let everyone know what you find, because apparently I am very ignorant.

blah blah blah blah big 5 names, NYU won't take DOs, blah blah blah...you clearly stated above, and I quote:

2 people did out of close to 20, but I guess you missed the NYU, Columbia X2, Mt Sinai, Brown, UCLA and CCF. Find me this in NYCOM's match list, in fact, why don't you call NYU and ask them if they will take a DO with perfect board scores, highly published research, and excellent letters. I can tell you, the answer is no.

I showed you DOs at CCF, I showed you DOs at Mt Sinai, I showed you DOs at NYU, there are DOs at Monte, there are DOs at Jacobi. Sorry you're so unhappy with your education. Have a nice day.

And for the record, I've already matched. Trust me chief - there was no heartbreak 🙂

 

[J1515]

And the two Downstaters that ended up NUMC I'm sure ended up there because of low numbers and class rank, but still took slots from NYCOM students who were trying to match *anywhere* for radiology.

yeah I'm sure

 

[Lokhtar]

Anyone know why did 1/6 of the students not match? That number seems a little high.

 

[mentulbloc80]

blah blah blah blah big 5 names, NYU won't take DOs, blah blah blah...you clearly stated above, and I quote:

2 people did out of close to 20, but I guess you missed the NYU, Columbia X2, Mt Sinai, Brown, UCLA and CCF. Find me this in NYCOM's match list, in fact, why don't you call NYU and ask them if they will take a DO with perfect board scores, highly published research, and excellent letters. I can tell you, the answer is no.

I showed you DOs at CCF, I showed you DOs at Mt Sinai, I showed you DOs at NYU, there are DOs at Monte, there are DOs at Jacobi. Sorry you're so unhappy with your education. Have a nice day.

And for the record, I've already matched. Trust me chief - there was no heartbreak 🙂

that was just in radiology they matched at these places. and again, only in pmr, anesthesia, and pathology, not represented anywhere else.

 

[J1515]

that was just in radiology they matched at these places. and again, only in pmr, anesthesia, and pathology, not represented anywhere else.

IM at CCF, EM at Jacobi, IM at Jacobi, rads at Yale. Face facts. Your preconceived anti-DO notions were wrong. You flat out stated these hospitals don't accept DOs. But continue to obsess. Nobody believes for a second that you attended a DO school. Good night.

 

[SteelCity]

IM at CCF, EM at Jacobi, IM at Jacobi, rads at Yale. Face facts. Your preconceived anti-DO notions were wrong. You flat out stated these hospitals don't accept DOs. But continue to obsess. Nobody believes for a second that you attended a DO school. Good night.

Maybe he's an MD student that got beat out for a slot by a DO....damm osteopaths