Dural puncture avoidance

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L5-S1 IL is also the least likely potential for wet tap if you go paramedian. Nerve is the backstop, not the sac. Look at all that fat past the LF, doesn't matter if none dorsally midline.

Needle tip is right behind site of compression, do not need to worry about if flow is going up/down/medial enough, you are closer to target than any other injection and can use depo.
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I disagree with this.

You can’t tell by MRI where the medial edge of the lamina/inferior articulating process is so when doing not on fluoro - you really have no idea exactly where the needle is in relation to this picture.
 
I disagree with this.

You can’t tell by MRI where the medial edge of the lamina/inferior articulating process is so when doing not on fluoro - you really have no idea exactly where the needle is in relation to this picture.
L5-S1 usually has the widest window. You can see where the facet is. If you are just medial to facet you should be fine. Even more so if your needle is angling medial to lateral.
 
everyone who is stil doing caudals b/c they were trained that way: stop. just do an S1 TFESI. quicker, easier, and closer to the pathology. hardware is never in the way

You need to be more open minded, about medicine and other things.

As I’ve posted a couple dozen times before on SDN, shallow angle caudals, (when you drive the needle tip cranially up to the S3-S4 level, not just barely through sacral hiatus) will
1- most reliably direct medication to the central third of the disc than other ESI techniques, which is particularly important with central disc herniations and annular tears.
2- caudals also more reliably cover the center right or center left portions of a disc vs a TFESI, and will safely cover it with depo instead of dex. Depo doesn’t always work better than dex, but it is never worse than dex if injected with same ESI technique.

Below are the lumbar spine MRI images of a staff member. First 3 photos are the MRI done in 2021, the second 3 images are from 2025 MRI.

Patient initially presented with right lumbar pain and right lumbar radiculopathy. Pain extended to knee only.
Did a right L5-S1, right S1 TFESI (depomedrol at S1, dex at L5-S1) This provided 95% relief for a year. Pain returned a year later. Repeated the same TFESI with same excellent sustained clinical results.

18 months later (this year) the pain returned in a fairly similar distribution but more intense. Repeated same right L5-S1, S1 TFESI (dex at L5, depo at S1). She had 50% relief for 10 days, then all pain returned. That TFESI worked really well historically so I again repeated the TFESI, but again it provided her only with a similar modest and brief 50% relief for a week.

Staff member is not able to function at work or home so I get a new lumbar mri. (Second series of photos) which reveal new modic changes at L4-L5 and also that the L4-L5 HD is now central instead of right paracentral as was seen in previous MRI. Pain radiates to buttock/thigh in a similar distribution, but a bit more central vs lateral, now

Again, despite a TFESI previously providing 95% relief for a year (twice) the staff member can now barely function despite repeating two TFESI with same technique that worked so well in the past (twice). So I now suggest a caudal and discuss the MRI with the patient (nurse) and that I wanted to cover central to central right portion of the part of HD.

I perform a shallow angle caudal with depomedrol at S3-S4 with the tip slightly right. The patient now achieves 90% sustained relief (she is currently in post procedure month 4)
The past 4 months she has been able to sit at work, bend at home, and resume exercise, etc. Clinical result after the caudal ESI is slightly less than the initial TFESI 4 years ago 90% vs 95% relief, but dramatically more effective than repeating the same (previously effective) TFESI twice this year with only mediocre results x 2.

Caudals don’t fix everything,and in
many clinical scenarios are less effective than TFESI. But it is short sighted to just say it’s virtually always incorrect to perform a caudal, as you just did.

There are some spine issues which respond better to a caudal with depomedrol vs any other ESI technique.
 

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You need to be more open minded, about medicine and other things.

As I’ve posted a couple dozen times before on SDN, shallow angle caudals, (when you drive the needle tip cranially up to the S3-S4 level, not just barely through sacral hiatus) will
1- most reliably direct medication to the central third of the disc than other ESI techniques, which is particularly important with central disc herniations and annular tears.
2- caudate also more reliably cover the center right or center left portions of a disc vs a TFESI, and will safely cover it with depo instead of dex. Depo doesn’t always work better than dex, but it is never worse than dex if injected with same ESI technique.

Below are the lumbar spine MRI images of a staff member. First 3 photos are the MRI done in 2021, the second 3 images are from 2025 MRI.

Patient initially presented with right lumbar pain and right lumbar radiculopathy. Pain extended to knee only.
Did a right L5-S1, right S1 TFESI (depomedrol at S1, dex at L5-S1) This provided 95% relief for a year. Pain returned a year later. Repeated the same TESI with same excellent sustained clinical results.

18 months later (this year) the pain returned in a fairly similar distribution but more intense. Repeated TFESI. 50% relief for 10 days, then all pain returned. That TFESI worked really well historically so I repeated the TFESI, but again this provided her with only the same modest and brief relief of 50% relief for a week.

Staff member is not able to function at work or home so I get a new lumbar mri. (Second series of photos) which reveal new modic changes at L4-L5 and also that the L4-L5 HD is now central instead of right paracentral as was seen in previous MRI. Pain radiates to buttock/thigh in a similar distribution, but a bit more central vs lateral, now

Again, despite a TFESI previously providing 95% relief for a year (twice) the staff member can now barely function despite repeating two TFESI with same technique that worked so well in the past (twice). So I now suggest a caudal and discuss the MRI with the patient (nurse) and that I wanted to cover central to central right portion of the part of HD.

I perform a shallow angle caudal with depomedrol at S3-S4 with the tip slightly right. The patient now achieves 90% sustained relief (she is currently in post procedure month 4)
The past 4 months she has been able to sit at work, bend at home, and resume exercise, etc. Clinical result after the caudal ESI is slightly less than the initial TFESI 4 years ago 90% vs 95% relief, but dramatically more effective than repeating the same (previously effective) TFESI twice this year with only mediocre results x 2.

Caudals don’t fix everything,and in
many clinical scenarios are less effective than TFESI. But it is short sighted to just say it’s virtually always incorrect to perform a caudal, as you just did.

There are some spine issues which respond better to a caudal with depomedrol vs any other ESI technique.

Making a post longer doesn’t make it scientifically correct.

You exhibited a lot of magical thinking. No ESI can last a year. That’s not how it works.
 
Making a post longer doesn’t make it scientifically correct.

You exhibited a lot of magical thinking. No ESI can last a year. That’s not how it works.

Whatever.

I just know that I help a lot of people that you and ssdoc can’t help. And this lady wouldn’t be able to work or function if I was as close minded as you guys.

It takes 4 minutes to do a shallow angle caudal with depo. Extremely low risk injection which requires far less time than a discussion with a frustrated patient telling them that they have to live with their pain, take meds chronically, or have surgery.
 
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Whatever.

I just know that I help a lot of people that you and ssdoc can’t help. And this lady wouldn’t be able to work or function if I was as close minded as you guys.

It takes 4 minutes to do a shallow angle caudal with depo. Extremely low risk injection which requires far less time than a discussion with frustrated patient telling them that they have to live with their pain, take meds chronically, or have surgery.

more magical thinking. no way you can know that.

nothing on that MRI tells me that "this lady cant work".

i admit i need to be more open minded. now you admit that you arent as good at this as you think you are.
 
You need to be more open minded, about medicine and other things.

As I’ve posted a couple dozen times before on SDN, shallow angle caudals, (when you drive the needle tip cranially up to the S3-S4 level, not just barely through sacral hiatus) will
1- most reliably direct medication to the central third of the disc than other ESI techniques, which is particularly important with central disc herniations and annular tears.
2- caudals also more reliably cover the center right or center left portions of a disc vs a TFESI, and will safely cover it with depo instead of dex. Depo doesn’t always work better than dex, but it is never worse than dex if injected with same ESI technique.

Below are the lumbar spine MRI images of a staff member. First 3 photos are the MRI done in 2021, the second 3 images are from 2025 MRI.

Patient initially presented with right lumbar pain and right lumbar radiculopathy. Pain extended to knee only.
Did a right L5-S1, right S1 TFESI (depomedrol at S1, dex at L5-S1) This provided 95% relief for a year. Pain returned a year later. Repeated the same TFESI with same excellent sustained clinical results.

18 months later (this year) the pain returned in a fairly similar distribution but more intense. Repeated same right L5-S1, S1 TFESI (dex at L5, depo at S1). She had 50% relief for 10 days, then all pain returned. That TFESI worked really well historically so I again repeated the TFESI, but again it provided her only with a similar modest and brief 50% relief for a week.

Staff member is not able to function at work or home so I get a new lumbar mri. (Second series of photos) which reveal new modic changes at L4-L5 and also that the L4-L5 HD is now central instead of right paracentral as was seen in previous MRI. Pain radiates to buttock/thigh in a similar distribution, but a bit more central vs lateral, now

Again, despite a TFESI previously providing 95% relief for a year (twice) the staff member can now barely function despite repeating two TFESI with same technique that worked so well in the past (twice). So I now suggest a caudal and discuss the MRI with the patient (nurse) and that I wanted to cover central to central right portion of the part of HD.

I perform a shallow angle caudal with depomedrol at S3-S4 with the tip slightly right. The patient now achieves 90% sustained relief (she is currently in post procedure month 4)
The past 4 months she has been able to sit at work, bend at home, and resume exercise, etc. Clinical result after the caudal ESI is slightly less than the initial TFESI 4 years ago 90% vs 95% relief, but dramatically more effective than repeating the same (previously effective) TFESI twice this year with only mediocre results x 2.

Caudals don’t fix everything,and in
many clinical scenarios are less effective than TFESI. But it is short sighted to just say it’s virtually always incorrect to perform a caudal, as you just did.

There are some spine issues which respond better to a caudal with depomedrol vs any other ESI technique.
Do you have any fluoro pics showing spread to that disc? Curious why you think caudal will give better spread than interlaminar for a central disc?

I used to do more what you're referring to as shallow angle caudals with depo. My colleagues routinely use caudal with catheter up.

I do a lot less caudals now. They didn't work any better in my hands than interlaminar or transforaminal, and usually worse. Anyone getting a year of relief I chalked up to placebo or improvement that would've happened anyways.
 
Do you have any fluoro pics showing spread to that disc? Curious why you think caudal will give better spread than interlaminar for a central disc?

I used to do more what you're referring to as shallow angle caudals with depo. My colleagues routinely use caudal with catheter up.

I do a lot less caudals now. They didn't work any better in my hands than interlaminar or transforaminal, and usually worse. Anyone getting a year of relief I chalked up to placebo or improvement that would've happened anyways.

Unfortunately it seems you didn’t understand the step by step clinical scenario I described, or basic spinal anatomy.
 
To get them 2 months of relief and to get more agressive with the home exercise program or restart PT.
its not the esi that is providing the year of relief.

it is the underlying pathology improving on its own.

Believing it was the ESI that did it is the absurd part.

Why do you give anyone an ESI? This is a crazy conversation IMO.

The absurd part is Steve thinking that all epidurals last two months or less.

Maybe if you do all of them with dex….

Mitch, I agree with you.
If these guys think ESI doesn’t do anything, then why do they perform them?
 
Unfortunately it seems you didn’t understand the step by step clinical scenario I described, or basic spinal anatomy.
What I don't understand is your magical thinking. I get you think your caudal gets you better anterior spread. Perhaps 0-10% of your injectate gets up there from S3. Show some pictures of your fluoro images showing the anterior spread.
 
It's not what I think that matters, it is what the literature reports.
My patients routinely come back for another S1 TFESI at a year saying it just wore off.
If I was not an educated physician who knew the science, I would believe them too.
 
do steroids cure knee pathology?

do steroids cure rotator cuff disease?

do steroids cure carpal tunnel?


in every other body part, certain doctors are pushing for regenerative medicine to cure an underlying condition because the steroid does not.

but the spine is different?
 
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