DVM or PhD in animal science?

[pawprints277]

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Hi everyone, I am currently an undergraduate biology student struggling to decide between continuing my education in veterinary school or in a graduate program in the animal sciences. I have experience working for a veterinarian as well as working in a microbiology research lab.

If I were to go for a DVM, I would definitely want to specialize (either nutrition or sports medicine and physical therapy) since working in a general practice does not seem to be for me. I am somewhat skeptical of whether or not vet school is the route for me to take, however, because I want to work with animals rather than just performing tests on them, working on them while they are under anesthesia, and sticking them with needles. I am also very concerned with the amount of debt that comes with vet school, as I have heard from and read many sources stating that the debt just isn't worth the salary of a veterinarian. The high stress levels and long working hours are also reasons for me to rethink.

That leads me to consider going for a PhD in animal science (possibly genetics/reproduction, nutrition, or physiology ) instead. I am just uncertain exactly what career options would be available to someone with that degree, either in academia or industry or something else, and how hands-on they would be with animals. Is it possible to work as an animal physical rehabilitation therapist or nutritionist with a PhD instead of a DVM? Factors like job availability/outlook as well as salary are also important.

With all of that in mind, I would greatly appreciate any advice or information offered! If you have taken either of these paths, would you recommend your career/field to others that are considering it? If you were to do things over, would you choose the same path? Thanks again in advance!!

 

[mmmdreamerz]

I am somewhat skeptical of whether or not vet school is the route for me to take, however, because I want to work with animals rather than just performing tests on them, working on them while they are under anesthesia, and sticking them with needles.

I got really stuck on this comment. If this is the impression you have of vet med after working in a clinic, it probably isn't for you. Most people around here will tell you that if you can imagine yourself doing anything else, then you probably should.

PhDs in animal science are research degrees and are long hauls. You have to be incredibly self-motivated and really enjoy the science to get through one. In academia, your job security is dictated by funding and funding in any of the biological sciences is harder and harder to get. Ultimately, I think you need to look at what your ultimate career goals are and make a decision on what to pursue from there.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Paging @Lab Vet

I'll probably contribute later too. Too much mouse catastrophe on Friday thr 13th rn.

 

[Lab Vet]

I can contribute some here. I began my PhD in Comparative Physiology and left 8 years into the degree with a terminal Master's. Following my exit, I worked full time for multiple years as a scientist in academia and industry before returning to vet school at age 34.

Research degrees and clinical degrees are two completely different balls of wax. They are both difficult (for completely different reasons), and train you to do different things.

I'll give the OP the advice I've given many times on SDN before. Before you commit to any educational path, take a long, hard look and decide what you want your job FUNCTION to be, irrespective of working with animals. Both clinical and research jobs require you to solve problems, albeit in different ways.

-Do you want to conduct experiments?
-Are you good at/can you tolerate an extensive amount of persuasive writing?
-Are you willing to tolerate the grant/publication rat race?
-How are you with troubleshooting? Do you frustrate easily?
-How much guidance do you need? Are you independent?
-What's your communication style? Would you rather talk with colleagues, or do you enjoy communicating across the board?
-How well do you tolerate people with different thoughts/opinions/perspectives than your own?
-Do you want to do technical work, thinking work, or both?
-What type of employment setting do you see yourself happiest in? Who are your bosses? Who are your colleagues? Who are your direct reports?
-What are you great at- functionally? (this is a different question than 'what do you like?)

These are just a few questions to get you started. Note that none of them mention animals. For both research science and vet med, animals are the backdrop of your work. In the forefront are people and tasks. Remember that work is a job, it's not 'fun' per se. Lasting the long haul in a career requires that you have a marketable set of skills that other folks are willing to pay for. You need to be good at those skills to compete.

A research degree will teach you how to think like a scientist: How to design/conduct/troubleshoot experiments, how to analyze data, and...most importantly...how to write. Writing is a scientist's major role at upper levels.
A clinical degree will teach you how to think like a clinician: How to interpret a patient's clinical signs to diagnose disease and prescribe a treatment plan for correction

The two degrees are not interchangeable. No one will ever convince me that a clinical education teaches you to become a research scientist. That simply isn't true. Completely different skill set.

As for the PhD, why the degree in animal science? Do you want to do applied research, or are you instead interested in hard-core genetics, molecular biology, or reproductive endocrinology? There may be graduate programs with degrees in these fields (i.e. cell/dev departments, etc.) that have nothing to do with Colleges of Agriculture (where Animal Science departments are based).

Yes, PhDs are employed in multiple sectors: Academia, Industry, and Gov't, but the availability of jobs depends on the field and, more importantly, the skills/expertise that you as a scientist bring to bear (i.e. what skill set are you selling?)

Before committing to any educational road/career path, be sure that you know:

1. What you want- functionally, not just the subject
2. What it takes to get there (and doesn't- perhaps you don't even need an advanced degree to do what you want to do)

Best of success. I recommend that you do some soul searching and informational interviewing before you jump into either career.

 

[<3Ivy<3]

As a vet student, I work with animals everyday. It is so much more than sticking them with needles or putting them under anesthesia. In an average week, I learn how to physical exams on cows (they like to lick a lot XD), how to calm a dog during a physical exam, interpreting bloodwork, preventative nutrition, client communication, how to network with other vets, etc. And even if I did stick animals everyday, it would be for the benefit of the animal.

And its so much more than performing tests! We don't even call it that really. Its more like a work-up. Why is there hypoproteinemia? Is it being loss in the urine or decreased production. And then we change our diagnostic plan accordingly.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

A research degree will teach you how to think like a scientist: How to design/conduct/troubleshoot experiments, how to analyze data, and...most importantly...how to write. Writing is a scientist's major role at upper levels.
A clinical degree will teach you how to think like a clinician: How to interpret a patient's clinical signs to diagnose disease and prescribe a treatment plan for correction

The two degrees are not interchangeable. No one will ever convince me that a clinical education teaches you to become a research scientist. That simply isn't true. Completely different skill set.

Such an excellent response (as always). I also wanted to agree specifically with this point.

For example, when I was applying for residencies, I also applied to several (biomedical research) post-doc positions as a "backup".

Not even a full research scientists jobs - postdocs. I mean, I had a doctorate (DVM), as well as a ton of research experience both before and during vet school, stellar LoRs from both vets AND researchers, etc. I had been fed all the "veterinarians are wanted/needed in biomedical research" stuff for years, so I figured I would be at least somewhat competitive, right?

Nope. I was flat out ignored. Never even got so much as an email saying "not interested" from them. At first I was shellshocked. Hell, everyone had told me how badly research groups want vets, right?! I tried this again after I completed residency, applying to similar positions now as a board-certified specialist in a research-friendly specialty. Same response - nada. Eventually I figured out the second half of that statement - veterinarians WITH RESEARCH DEGREES are wanted/needed in biomedical research. My clinical degree meant precisely diddly squat to them. They would take a "regular" PhD over me any day of the week.

Now as I am nearing the end of my own PhD and comparing it with clinical work, I am realizing why. Of course, generic things like problem-solving skills are applicable in both disciplines, but how you approach problems in general (as well as everyday skillsets, goals, communication skills, writing...the list could go on forever) are completely different. And honestly, my PhD is much harder than vet school ever was.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Hi everyone, I am currently an undergraduate biology student struggling to decide between continuing my education in veterinary school or in a graduate program in the animal sciences. I have experience working for a veterinarian as well as working in a microbiology research lab.

If I were to go for a DVM, I would definitely want to specialize (either nutrition or sports medicine and physical therapy) since working in a general practice does not seem to be for me. I am somewhat skeptical of whether or not vet school is the route for me to take, however, because I want to work with animals rather than just performing tests on them, working on them while they are under anesthesia, and sticking them with needles. I am also very concerned with the amount of debt that comes with vet school, as I have heard from and read many sources stating that the debt just isn't worth the salary of a veterinarian. The high stress levels and long working hours are also reasons for me to rethink.

Can you define this more? What do you mean when you say you want to "work with animals" but not in a clinical sense? What exactly do you see yourself doing with them? Do you think perhaps working in things like rehab on the side would be more applicable to your needs, rather than as a primary career choice?

I will say that if you choose the research route, your interaction with animals in many (if not most) cases will be much less than if you were a veterinarian.

 

[pawprints277]

Thank you all for your responses! Everyone made a lot of great points and I certainly have a lot to think about before I make a decision, and I plan to take plenty of time to do so before diving in. I really appreciate all of the different perspectives everyone has opened my eyes to while I think about what is best for me.

When I say "work with animals" I am thinking about my experience when I worked with a small animal veterinarian and it seemed as though her day consisted, not entirely, but mainly of routine checkups of giving yearly shots/drawing blood or other samples/prescribing medications and moving on to the next patient to do the same routine again. Of course there is more to the job, but that type of setting in particular did not seem to be for me. I would enjoy being more interactive with the animal in a way that allows me to work with them for longer periods of time and with more activity. For example, helping animals with techniques such as water or treadmill therapy seems more appealing to me because it would involve helping the animal through physical activity and interaction. I am planning to shadow a rehab veterinarian at a specialty center near me so I can get an in-depth idea of what that specialty is like and if it is what I imagine myself doing. If this explanation helped to clear up my previous statement, I would certainly appreciate any additional comments or advice!

 

[dyachei]

Thank you all for your responses! Everyone made a lot of great points and I certainly have a lot to think about before I make a decision, and I plan to take plenty of time to do so before diving in. I really appreciate all of the different perspectives everyone has opened my eyes to while I think about what is best for me.

When I say "work with animals" I am thinking about my experience when I worked with a small animal veterinarian and it seemed as though her day consisted, not entirely, but mainly of routine checkups of giving yearly shots/drawing blood or other samples/prescribing medications and moving on to the next patient to do the same routine again. Of course there is more to the job, but that type of setting in particular did not seem to be for me. I would enjoy being more interactive with the animal in a way that allows me to work with them for longer periods of time and with more activity. For example, helping animals with techniques such as water or treadmill therapy seems more appealing to me because it would involve helping the animal through physical activity and interaction. I am planning to shadow a rehab veterinarian at a specialty center near me so I can get an in-depth idea of what that specialty is like and if it is what I imagine myself doing. If this explanation helped to clear up my previous statement, I would certainly appreciate any additional comments or advice!

you may prefer veterinary technician then. They tend to have the most contact with the animals.

 

[that redhead]

Hi everyone, I am currently an undergraduate biology student struggling to decide between continuing my education in veterinary school or in a graduate program in the animal sciences. I have experience working for a veterinarian as well as working in a microbiology research lab.

If I were to go for a DVM, I would definitely want to specialize (either nutrition or sports medicine and physical therapy) since working in a general practice does not seem to be for me. I am somewhat skeptical of whether or not vet school is the route for me to take, however, because I want to work with animals rather than just performing tests on them, working on them while they are under anesthesia, and sticking them with needles. I am also very concerned with the amount of debt that comes with vet school, as I have heard from and read many sources stating that the debt just isn't worth the salary of a veterinarian. The high stress levels and long working hours are also reasons for me to rethink.

That leads me to consider going for a PhD in animal science (possibly genetics/reproduction, nutrition, or physiology ) instead. I am just uncertain exactly what career options would be available to someone with that degree, either in academia or industry or something else, and how hands-on they would be with animals. Is it possible to work as an animal physical rehabilitation therapist or nutritionist with a PhD instead of a DVM? Factors like job availability/outlook as well as salary are also important.

With all of that in mind, I would greatly appreciate any advice or information offered! If you have taken either of these paths, would you recommend your career/field to others that are considering it? If you were to do things over, would you choose the same path? Thanks again in advance!!

Research, teaching, epidemiology (government/public health)...low in the hands-on department but better job stability/pay/long term prospects. You can become a certified rehab therapist or perhaps equine acupuncture and have far more hands-on work with animals but pay would likely be less.

I do enjoy veterinary medicine as a veterinarian, but looking back I think there are other things that would (likely) make me equally as happy. I do like the autonomy of being a doctor versus a technician but not sure how much it's worth the stress of case responsibility, debt, the grueling 4 years of school, etc. It sounds as though you'd be happy doing other things, so I would pursue those things at this time, personally.