DVM vs. DVM/PhD

[NStarz]

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What are the differences between DVM and DVM/PhD career-wise? I mean, can you do research as solely a DVM? Can you do clinical work as a DVM/PhD?

I ask because I am interested in research, but am not sure if I want to devote my entire life to it or an extra three years of school. Ideally, I would love to practice both clinically and do research as a DVM. Is that possible?

 

[nyanko]

If you're unsure about research, your best option is probably to get a DVM and then apply to residency programs in whatever field you want to specialize in that combine with a PhD or MS.

 

[No Imagination]

I agree with Nyanko said. Alternatively, you could get some heavy duty research experience now to see what you think. I caution you however, that initially when you first start research, or 'research on the side', is a lot different then devoting your life the it, or even getting a PhD/Research based Masters. A lot of people burn out, myself included. Its not the lifestyle of running gels, HPLC's, MS, ect., instead its about writing grants, getting published, and usually directing others to do what you think is 'fun', like bench work.

Alternatively, you can think about being a Lab Animal Vet. While they tend to do a lot of paperwork in the form of regulatory compliance, it is possible (I think) to be on the ground working with and actually doing research.

I am jaded on the topic, and this is merely my opinion - perhaps others can give you additional insight.

 

[sumstorm]

Here there are plenty of DVM's doing research, especially clinical research.

We have a research focus area to help DVM students that want to pursue research but don't necessarily want to pursue of PhD. It requires additional work in research, electives, selectives, etc. During our fall selective, this was actually part of the discussion. The PhD in charge of that area felt that people who wanted their primary focus to be research (80+ of working time) probably need the PhD to learn the grant writing/methodology development/writing/etc. He felt that those who wanted to do research as a side note on clinical work (say ~40% of working time) could do so with a DVM if in the right environment. Anything in between would have to be figured out.

I wrote a bit about differences in DVM/PhD/DVM-PhD in the vet forum when I was taking the selective. Advantaged/disadvantages to the DVM-PhD.

One of our students has a PhD and is obtaining her DVM with a focus area in lab animal medicine with a research interest.

Also, some schools will allow you to apply to the PhD program during the FY DVM program.

 

[laitmanvet]

What are the differences between DVM and DVM/PhD career-wise? I mean, can you do research as solely a DVM? Can you do clinical work as a DVM/PhD?

I ask because I am interested in research, but am not sure if I want to devote my entire life to it or an extra three years of school. Ideally, I would love to practice both clinically and do research as a DVM. Is that possible?

Its definitely possible. If you're not sure about research you can always apply to the DVM program and then decide once you're in. Many schools allow for you to apply to the joint PhD program after your first year.
I was in the same situation you are in and I was told while it would be more difficult there are always post-doc positions to pursue after vet school. There are plenty of DVM researchers, but many of them have a research background.
Career choice - I would say this is the difference between a DVM and DVM/PhD. Just like MD/PhD the education for these students is geared towards academia. DVM is not quite as specific (very few of these students go into academia.)
hope this helps and good luck!

 

[NStarz]

Thank you so much for your replies! This was exactly what I wanted to hear!

 

[Jms07016]

What would the right environment be for an individual only posessing a DVM to be doing research? I am very interested in research, but I also want to be a clinician of some sort. At this point in my life I don't know if investing the extra amount of time into a dual program would be worth it to me. Could some people throw some possible scenarios out that they have witnessed or experienced themselves where a person was practicing with their DVM and doing research without a PhD?

 

[laitmanvet]

What would the right environment be for an individual only posessing a DVM to be doing research? I am very interested in research, but I also want to be a clinician of some sort. At this point in my life I don't know if investing the extra amount of time into a dual program would be worth it to me. Could some people throw some possible scenarios out that they have witnessed or experienced themselves where a person was practicing with their DVM and doing research without a PhD?

I can't say I've encountered a sole DVM in research - but I feel like they're out there. I know quite a few joint degrees however. And I know people who get their PhDs after finishing vet school. But I do know many MD-only PIs who are clinicians and are in research. I want to say this has happened only because of the way education is structured now. Many of the MD researchers I know are older and got their degrees in a time when joint degrees weren't common. I think because the DVM/PhD is a more recent thing, perhaps this how most of the vets in research got into research.

Have you thought about doing a post-doc after vet school? Also, I know in medical school its becoming more common to take a break yr between yrs 2 and 3 and doing research....maybe thats something you can consider.

 

[nyanko]

Either way, getting into research is going to take some extra time - if not during vet school (in a dual degree program or a yearlong research program or whatever) then after. There are residency programs that also offer a Ph.D. and if you're already experienced with research, I've heard of institutions that will let you enter a research postdoc with a DVM. Point being, if it's saving time you're worried about, the dual degree DVM (or VMD)/Ph.D. is going to likely actually be faster than your other options.

edit: it's also going to be very field dependent. Highly clinically oriented research will probably require less additional experience than doing basic sciences research. In the more clinical specialties, I've definitely seen non Ph.D's who are involved in research and teaching in academia.

 

[JumpHigherLivie]

One of the members on my committee for my PhD "only" has a DVM... she works on DNA PKAs (basically all molecular based research) and regularly publishes in journals like PNAS. So it's possible ... but just not the road most traveled.

My thought was that I'll have more career options since I enjoy both research and clinical work. I'm not heading more towards lab animal vet med and I think that having done a PhD and having used lab animals for it will give me a better insight into the job than had I just gone about it through vet school only. But that's just my opinion.

I would not recommend doing a PhD unless your heart is really in it ... it's just too much work otherwise.

 

[tsethar]

I'm very interested in a DVM/PhD, having extensive experience with both laboratory biochemistry research and clinical veterinary. The one problem I keep running into is that SO FEW schools offer the dual-degree program.

I am considering applying to individual programs at various schools, then soliciting them to allow me to pursue the dual degree by commuting between the schools every 1-3 years as per the structured programs at schools that actually have them. Eg, apply to Oregon state veterinary and U Washington graduate, and ask them to let me do both.

Does anyone think this will fly?

Pardon my language, but I think it sucks that so few schools offer the dual degree option. Though I understand demand is incredibly low...

 

[twelvetigers]

I think DVM/PhD programs are fairly common, actually. What schools are you interested in that don't offer that?

 

[heylodeb]

I'm very interested in a DVM/PhD, having extensive experience with both laboratory biochemistry research and clinical veterinary. The one problem I keep running into is that SO FEW schools offer the dual-degree program.

I am considering applying to individual programs at various schools, then soliciting them to allow me to pursue the dual degree by commuting between the schools every 1-3 years as per the structured programs at schools that actually have them. Eg, apply to Oregon state veterinary and U Washington graduate, and ask them to let me do both.

Does anyone think this will fly?

Pardon my language, but I think it sucks that so few schools offer the dual degree option. Though I understand demand is incredibly low...

Why not just get your DVM and then pursue the Ph.D or vice versa? A DVM/Ph.D program that is designed to work together is stressful/difficult enough but i think it would be significantly more difficult to try and combine two programs that aren't designed to work together.

 

[laitmanvet]

Why not just get your DVM and then pursue the Ph.D or vice versa? A DVM/Ph.D program that is designed to work together is stressful/difficult enough but i think it would be significantly more difficult to try and combine two programs that aren't designed to work together.

They actually work together very well. While DVM/PhD programs are relatively new compared to MD/PhD, they both work very well to train physician scientists. Its really meant to be a different career than either the DVM or PhD separately.

As asked earlier, which schools are you looking at? You're right though, not every school has a program and the ones that do exist are small. I think Penn's is one of the largest, but even they only accept like 5 or so students per yr. I think UMinn requires you to apply and be admitted to the DVM program and then apply to the joint program in the first yr. Off the top of my head, Cornell, Colorado, Davis, Tufts (with either UMass or Tufts med school) definitely have programs (among others I'm sure.)

If you're set on doing a PhD at a school without a vet school you may have a couple options. Do the PhD before or after vet school. Not ideal but I know people who have done it. So, I don't know if this is possible but some medical schools allow you to take up to a 10 yr "sabbatical" between the 2nd and 3rd yr. People do take the time off to pursue a PhD. Also, not ideal.

 

[jmo1012]

VMRCVM has a DVM/PhD program that you apply to -you let them know you're interested and they consider you in a separate pool (or at least thats what they did last year). the students do their PhD first and then head into vet school (they found that that was the best way to make sure students completed both programs and didn't compromise DVM training by taking a gap between years)

to me, it sounds like a great opportunity for people who want both.

 

[heylodeb]

They actually work together very well. While DVM/PhD programs are relatively new compared to MD/PhD, they both work very well to train physician scientists. Its really meant to be a different career than either the DVM or PhD separately.

maybe I didn't word it in a way that made sense....

I think DVM/PhD programs are great and I understand their purpose HOWEVER I think it would be risky to try to combine a DVM program from one school and a PhD program from another school since they have not been designed to complement each other.

 

[laitmanvet]

maybe I didn't word it in a way that made sense....

I think DVM/PhD programs are great and I understand their purpose HOWEVER I think it would be risky to try to combine a DVM program from one school and a PhD program from another school since they have not been designed to complement each other.

Ah OK. You're right there, it is risky. Joint programs do a great job of keeping the students "in the loop" for both parts of the program. There are lots of seminars and programs solely devoted to the joint degree students. Also, usually, during the PhD work students will schedule occasional clinical time to stay connected to medicine.
I do know someone currently who did 2 yrs of med school, took time off to do a PhD at a different school with plans to return to the MD afterwards. So, it can be done.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

A DVM doing research without a PhD is EXTREMELY rare. I have not seen a single job advertised, ever, to that effect. They do exist, but that's a very long road.

If you want to do real research, or ever hope to me more than a consultant, or work in academic or high-end institutions, they want you to have a PhD. Period. And having a DVM in addition to one doesn't give you any perks, when they can just hire a plain old PhD and pay them less. A DVM/PhD is really not worth any more than a PhD to the vast majority of PIs.

Sorry. I'm a tad bitter on the subject. The demand is very low, especially in today's economy. Friends of mine with DVMs, PhDs, and board certification can't find jobs. It was very "in style" for a while to tout how research needs more DVMs blah blah...but in reality, they don't.

They would much rather have a PhD who is just as knowledgeable and skilled in their research arena (if not more) and not have to shell out for a more "expensive" DVM/PhD. A DVM is considered and clinical degree - rather useless in most high tech labs unless you also have board certification in lab animal or pathology (ie, the two most useful specialties to translational medicine as the non-DVM folk see it)

If you REALLY want to do it, look for a program that does NOT combine year. Ie, go to vet school for two years, do your PhD, and come back. You'll forget everything.

Network as much as possible. The DVM/PhD niche is so small, that you need to know people to know people. Network, network, network.

Talk to people at NIH. That's probably the most accessible hub of DVM/PhDs.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

A Joint programs do a great job of keeping the students "in the loop" for both parts of the program. There are lots of seminars and programs solely devoted to the joint degree students. Also, usually, during the PhD work students will schedule occasional clinical time to stay connected to medicine.

Not the joint programs I have seen...they have been improving over the years, I will admit, but there is definitely a disconnect.

 

[Packen]

NStarz, were you looking to go into behavior research? Not sure if it was you in a previous thread that talked about that... in my experience, behavioral research is not quite the same as the working at a pathology lab. But if this is your area of interest I can only pass on what i have been told of the field: if you want to do only clinical work, go for DVM and become board certified, if you have a desire in research get a PhD. Behavioral PhDs can actually do "clinical" work too (think doctorate in psychology), but as WTF pointed out it will probably be easier to get a position, and less expensive considering tuition.

 

[laitmanvet]

Not the joint programs I have seen...they have been improving over the years, I will admit, but there is definitely a disconnect.

Hmm, I guess I just assumed (at least at Penn) it would have a similar setup to the MD/PhD program. But the program is definitely much smaller, less developed, and possibly doesn't have the degree of structure found in the medical school.

Its unfortunate that a niche hasn't been found for the DVM/PhD nor that you don't find DVMs going on to pursue research post-docs. There are a lot of animal diseases that nicely mimic their human counterparts. Research funding lately is definitely down but in general its trending towards translational medicine. It would be nice to see vet medicine getting a piece of that.

 

[nyanko]

Its unfortunate that a niche hasn't been found for the DVM/PhD nor that you don't find DVMs going on to pursue research post-docs.

The vast majority of doctors coming out of a DVM degree alone are not properly prepared to do a research post-doc, whether they would want to or not.

 

[Minnerbelle]

The vast majority of doctors coming out of a DVM degree alone are not properly prepared to do a research post-doc, whether they would want to or not.

Thanks for putting that out there. I meant to say something like that, but was scared of the fury that might result. Vet schools barely prepare students to walk out as clinicians, and definitely do not produce scientists. It's not so much that they're inadequate at it, but rather that it's not their goal (regardless of what some deans might say). Understanding clinical anatomy, physiology, pharmacology, etc... =/= understanding the scientific method. Of course there are probably some - or rather exceedingly rare - exceptions, but having done a little research project/independent research here and there in undergrad (and/or vet school even) doesn't mean much either.

I personally really like research, but the amount of training I would need to really pursue it is a huge turn off. My current boss is a boarded internist DVM/PhD, and her job is freaking awesome. She spends like half of her time on internal medicine service, and half of her time in research. I would die to have her job. That being said, she did an internship and residency after vet school, followed by a PhD before she got to where she is (and I think that's pretty typical of PhD internists) 😱. And even if I were to put in the same commitment, I hate that work would be very location restricted. If I actually want to practice medicine AND do decent research, I'm kind of stuck at vet teaching hospitals. All of those things compete with my ever growing dream of getting married and starting a family with a modest house with a white picket fence before my ovaries expire, and paying down my debt (so much for my feminazi education!). Obviously, it can be done since plenty of people do it... but I have huge doubts about whether it's for me. I am keeping my options open and will probably continue to pursue this path, 'cause who knows... I might enter my clinical years and realize what a horrible clinician I'll be and jump ship!

 

[JosephKnechtDVM]

Many good points already made about the inadequacy of the DVM degree in research. I second that from personal experience in trying to gain admission to pharm/toxicology programs at medical schools in the late 1990s. Comparative medicine approach seems to exist only in the veterinary schools as the researchers really never consider DVMs as properly educated in research. The vet schools do not realize that the mission of clinicians to apply knowledge to medical problems of animals is very different from discovery and the creation of new knowledge through research. Two different goals requiring different approaches to education and training. Clinicians do not compare problems across species, they are paid to solve the animal's problem as efficiently and economically as possible. Day to day clinical problems are not research problems!!

Joe

 

[SilverSpyderGT]

Comparative medicine approach seems to exist only in the veterinary schools as the researchers really never consider DVMs as properly educated in research.

Please visit a major institution with an animal research program before you make any sweeping generalizations like this one.

I will be happy to talk to you about MIT (or Sloan-Kettering, or Hershey, or the University of Washington, or Johns Hopkins, etc.) if you truly believe that comparative medicine does not exist outside of the veterinary academic environment.

[Crap, I just fell for JosephKnechtDVM's typical bait.]

 

[Minnerbelle]

Please visit a major institution with an animal research program before you make any sweeping generalizations like this one.

I will be happy to talk to you about MIT (or Sloan-Kettering, or Hershey, or the University of Washington, or Johns Hopkins, etc.) if you truly believe that comparative medicine does not exist outside of the veterinary academic environment.

yeah for reals. The rodent histopathologist at harvard med school is a davis vet, and is probably one of the most influential people in the boston area when it comes to rodent model systems. That man's CV would make any researcher (MD, PhD, DVM, or any combination) drool like a mastiff.

I agree that without further training, someone with a run of the mill DVM degree probably wouldn't make a good researcher straight out of vet school (not that a DVM degree isn't valuable in and of itself). But I think it's ridiculous to say that veterinarians don't contribute to comparative medicine outside of veterinary academia. Especially vets who specialize in lab animal and pathology play very important roles in translational research outside of vet schools.

Same exact thing goes with MD degrees. I think the only difference is that there are more opportunities for the "only-MD" peeps to find post-doc fellowships in hospital settings. I don't think it's because MD programs better train their students in research, but rather just that there are so many more human research hospitals.

[Crap, I just fell for JosephKnechtDVM's typical bait.]

🤣

 

[tsethar]

Can someone elaborate on what type of pathology residencies might be available to me after I graduate from veterinary school?

My main interest is infectious disease. Could I specialize in that in veterinary school, then move on to infectious disease research? (My only other desire is to do shelter medicine, but I worry that this might bore my inquisitive mind eventually...)

Finally, and most difficult, I do not wish to work with laboratory animals (due to personal morals). My goal in researching infectious disease would not include infecting any human or animal for testing purposes, yet I would like to study these things. I feel like this restricts my career choices to either synthetic/molecular biology, or field work with infectious disease outside the lab. Can anyone suggest a more clinical cross-over?

I met a feline infectious disease specialist who is a clinician at Colorado's vet school, and he was testing medicine on cats in what appeared from my viewpoint an acceptably humane way. I would be happy to have his job.

I echo the previous poster who brings up the extreme geographic restriction of this specific career path, and concerns about ovary expiration dates.

This is the most difficult choice of my life. I've been contemplating the two (DVM vs PhD) for literally 7 years. I wonder if I should just flip a coin?

 

[Bismarck]

This is the most difficult choice of my life. I've been contemplating the two (DVM vs PhD) for literally 7 years. I wonder if I should just flip a coin?

My suggestion would be to apply to DVM/PhD combined programs if you have the academic/research firepower to be a competitive applicant. This means stellar GPA, GRE, and some sort of published work in a peer-reviewed journal -- the process is another level of 'competitive' entirely. I think if you gave us a bit more background on any research you may have done already we could give you a bit more specific advice.

 

[nyanko]

This is the most difficult choice of my life. I've been contemplating the two (DVM vs PhD) for literally 7 years. I wonder if I should just flip a coin?

If you're interested in very clinical research, you don't really need a Ph.D. for it

 

[deleted387118]

You could also look at doing a Masters with a DVM if you want to get a taste of things. That's what I decided to do - DVM/MPH with an emphasis on infectious diseases and zoonosis. I believe we have the option to extend it to a PhD too.

 

[tsethar]

I have seriously considered getting a MPH or MVPH and it is still on the table. Here's an example of the type of issue I am passionate about: Rinderpest second disease in history to be eradicated.

I do not have any peer-reviewed publications yet. I work at a major university in the genetic medicine dept, and do biophysical characterization of computationally-designed proteins. I've been working on a project for the past 6 months, but none of the designs have behaved as predicted computationally (no fault of my own) so it won't have its own paper. However I may be published eventually as the data is used by collaborators testing the designs in vivo.

I'm really put off by the geographic restrictions of a DVM/PhD. I'm from Alaska and currently live on the East coast, and to be honest I hate it here for a whole array of reasons. I just want to go back to the west coast, but UC Davis is the only west coast school with the combination program. Oregon State is my first choice and I can apply for a MPH (epidemiology) there.

I love molecular biology and physiology, and I don't want to quit it. Perhaps as a veterinary epidemiologist I can work something out?

 

[Kmeid]

VMRCVM has a DVM/PhD program that you apply to -you let them know you're interested and they consider you in a separate pool (or at least thats what they did last year). the students do their PhD first and then head into vet school (they found that that was the best way to make sure students completed both programs and didn't compromise DVM training by taking a gap between years)

to me, it sounds like a great opportunity for people who want both.

I go to VT and I know a few people in the DVM/PhD program at VMRCVM, it seems to be a great deal. The only part that's a little tough is that they do make you do the PhD portion first. One of the guys who I know is in it said he really misses the Vetmed part. He said it's hard to have to wait to do any Veterinary medicine. But other then that fact you have to wait, it's a fabulous deal.

 

[tsethar]

You could also look at doing a Masters with a DVM if you want to get a taste of things. That's what I decided to do - DVM/MPH with an emphasis on infectious diseases and zoonosis. I believe we have the option to extend it to a PhD too.

Can you talk a little more about what this is like for classwork, and what type of career you think you will have after you graduate? What kind of organizations will employ someone with that specialty, and where will you spend your regular workday -- an office, a clinic, a lab? Do you think you will have the opportunity to contribute expertise to policy? Thanks so much for your info. This is looking like a really good option for me.

 

[deleted387118]

Can you talk a little more about what this is like for classwork, and what type of career you think you will have after you graduate? What kind of organizations will employ someone with that specialty, and where will you spend your regular workday -- an office, a clinic, a lab? Do you think you will have the opportunity to contribute expertise to policy? Thanks so much for your info. This is looking like a really good option for me.

I'm really just starting the program myself so I can't give you a lot of insight - the specific programs differ as far as when you do the work (with DVM, after DVM, in summer, online, etc). If you have a specific interest in K-State I can tell you about that.

Careers - Myself, I'm not sure. What I like about K-State's program is you can change the MPH to a PhD if you want to get more involved or a certificate of Public Health if you don't finish the curriculum. Students that I've talked to have described their career plans as military, government, or work internationally. A few older vets in my class are coming back to get their MPH to look for better job opportunities. Public health covers a lot of areas - from human health to animal health to food safety and all of the policy that shapes these areas. Like I said, I'm not sure what I want to do with my life, so the MPH program at K-State has been a great way for me to figure out if public practice is something I can see myself doing daily for the rest of my life.