Dying in the Safety Net.

[ruralsurg4now]

If you want to, nobody's stopping you.

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[notbobtrustme]

guys, ignore the troll. they thrive on attention.

 

[KnuxNole]

If you want to, nobody's stopping you.

Lol you say it like its a bad thing
Try it sometime, it won't hurt. It'll help your surgical practice in your rural community!

You are right notbobtrustme, he trolls dating threads crying about not finding dates and liberal threads saying liberals are crazy. But, rural surg is extremely happy and content being in a rural area so no reason to hate on him for that

 

[Escape_Goat]

There's no such thing as a food desert. That's just another myth made by liberals to excuse the behavior of poor people. They just randomly make up lies like "people are dying in the streets due to lack of healthcare." Nobody has ever seen even one person dead in the street for pretty much any reason, but you're supposed to go "wow, that sounds plausible!!"

Booooo. C'mon man, you were doing so well with the trolling up until this point. Your previous comments were completely ridiculous, but they were at least within the realm of something a crazy Tea Party uncle would say on Facebook. You had to go and ruin it by removing any plausibility that this could be what a person actually believes or that you are so incapable of understanding the way people communicate, yet somehow managed to successfully navigate your way into and through medical school and residency.

I'll help you out regardless. A "food desert" isn't a literal desert in that they receive less than 10 inches of rain per year. It also does not mean that less than 10 inches of food fall per year, ala Cloudy With a Chance of Meatballs, since food does not actually fall from the sky anywhere.

A food desert means that within a geographical area or community there is a lack of availability to healthy, affordable foods. Many low income areas do not have supermarkets or farmers markets where such foods are available. Instead, these neighborhoods are replete with corner stores and gas station marts that have very limited food options beyond an abundance of convenience foods.

"People dying in the streets" doesn't just mean "in the streets". When people say that, they also tend to refer to any person who dies of a preventable disease, in any physical location, due to a lack of access to healthcare. This can also include people who die of a preventable disease in a healthcare facility as a result of delaying or avoiding care because of socioeconomic barriers. I realize that may be confusing for you, having people say "die in the street" when they can also mean in a home, hospital, etc., but, you know, English is a complicated language.

If you have anymore questions or misunderstandings about the meanings of words or phrases, or how people communicate, please feel free to ask.

Maybe you can answer a question for me as well, so there is some reciprocal benefit here. When you say "liberal", is that supposed to be a pejorative? Pejorative means "insulting", by the way.

 

[Womb Raider]

So.... Are you disagreeing with me? Are you saying that most poor people are hard working, honest citizens who are making a genuine effort to stay healthy and contribute to society?

Yes, I am disagreeing with you and agreeing with the multitude of studies that have shown that, in the long run, benefits like preventative healthcare cost less than not paying those benefits. Having a healthy, educated society is also important to economic growth and things like social mobility. I know this is hard for you to understand since it's all about you, but believe it or not, things like this actually benefit you. It is good for everyone if more people have the ability to earn and spend as much money as possible. Removing people from the economy due to poverty, illness, or poor education is bad. Even if you disagree with the moral argument supporting benefits to those who need them, the economic argument is pretty uncontroversial and mainstream.

Why do these people not have the same ability to earn and spend as much money as possible? How do you plan on making sure these preventative care tactics are implemented effectively? Lots of preventative care involves screenings, and/or taking prophylactic medications. Medical noncompliance is a huge issue, and I would put money on it being higher in the lower class than upper/mid class. Lots of these people can't wrap their minds around the concept of "if you don't take this, bad things will happen" no matter how many times someone tells them... To them, the illness isn't real until they present with symptoms.

Education? When have I not been an advocate for education? I'm all for education but you can't make someone learn something they don't want to learn. Do you think a morbidly obese man who eats fast food every day puts any REAL thought into what he hears about eating healthy? I guarantee doctors "educate" the morbidly obese about the health hazards of the condition, but guess what, they ignore it. Same with smokers. Same with drug users. Same with a lot of things. Education is a problem, but in a many cases the patient is knowingly indulging in bad behavior - this shouldn't go without consequences.

What am I going to do about it? Well gee wiz, I wish I could implement Womb Raider's Affordable Care Act, but unfortunately that isn't going to happen. We're having an intellectual discussion. But yes, if you want reality - I think if someone wants free health care, free food, free anything from the government (or from my pocket), they should be able to show that they aren't a slum of society. E.g. take drug tests, show that they're working or trying to work. Educating themselves AND making sure their children are being educated. Oh, but this is a free country you say? Not if you're living on my dime. The opportunities are there people - stop defending the lazy.

You do realize that this exact thing - drug testing people receiving state benefits - was done in Florida, right? The result was that 2.6% of recipients tested positive for drug use. You know what happened? The state realized that they were spending more money doing the drug testing than they were on paying benefits to those that who "don't deserve them." Still think these sorts of things are a good idea?

I'm aware of the results. Did those results include people who dropped out, refusing to take the test? Nope. Was there someone in the room watching them take a piss? How many drugs did they screen for? Were they notified ahead of time? Urine drug tests aren't perfect and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how long a drug stays in your system. Nonetheless, the results are definitely lower than expected. Personally, I would rather spend a little extra money filtering out drug users than freely giving away welfare to everyone, but that's just me.

My argument doesn't stem so much from greed as it does from supporting leaches. Would you walk around living with a leach attached to your neck? Oh you wouldn't? What if that leach was a human being? I don't like parasitic members of society.

Please tell me about all the ways in which you are not a parasite of society and actively contribute to the well-being of others. I'm looking forward to hearing them. I'm sure you've done a lot of great things after receiving all of those government-funded/mandated things like universal education, vaccination, and loans for secondary education, and will continue to do great things after you benefit from government-funded residency training and more government loans for your medical training. What have you done to not only make the spending on you net-neutral, but net-positive? Dis gun b gud.

Ha, another personal question! I am pretty young, so a net-positive result is very unlikely. However, I have done well in school, have a job, support myself and have a promising career path that will eventually help society more than most. But yes, when you put it like that we are all parasites of society. Putting me in the same classification as some high school dropout, who lives off government funding, plays CoD all day and smokes weed isn't quite the same.

Although you may think that we, as humans, have some "moral obligation" in life to improve the lives of others at our own expense, this is your constructed reality, not everyone's. Assuming you do believe in this logic, where do you draw the line to your charitable donations?

This isn't really relevant to the discussion, but I'm of the opinion that given that we all have one life to live, we should all strive to live the most fulfilling lives possible that results in the happiest life possible. For example, I support using the income of the wealthy - who have the ability to continue doing what I mentioned in the last sentence - to support the poor, who may not have access to things like food and shelter. However my own opinion is irrelevant in the context of policy discussions.

Morals aren't irrelevant. If we lived in your society Robin Hood, I could sit on couch and do absolutely nothing and be happy. Why would I not do that? Why would anyone work?

In the words of Jefferson: "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."

You are the one calling majority of poor people leaches. What gives you a moral high ground to do that?

The opportunities are there for YOU because you were lucky to be born in the right family, go to decent school with carrying teachers, and having friends who were a positive influence. Sure you faced adversity, but you have zero understanding of what some people have to go through just to survive. I worked for years with kids who had to sleep at friend's houses and not eat once a day in cafeteria and majority of them did everything to have a better life. I'd much rather work with them than some entitled little brat who has been sucking on his parents' tit for all of his life and thinks that poor people are just lazy since the opportunity is always there.

Lol. Again, you guys are twisting my views to support your own. I have no problem with helping people that are genuinely trying to better their life. My problem is with the person who doesn't do anything and lives off others.

 

[notbobtrustme]

Morals aren't irrelevant. If we lived in your society, I could sit on couch and do absolutely nothing and be happy. Why would I not do that? Why would anyone work?

In the words of Jefferson: "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."

You literally described every country in Europe. Europe gives citizens very generous benefits and they have no problem competing in the global economy.

 

[Mr Avante]

this is great

 

[ruralsurg4now]

A food desert means that within a geographical area or community there is a lack of availability to healthy, affordable foods. Many low income areas do not have supermarkets or farmers markets where such foods are available. Instead, these neighborhoods are replete with corner stores and gas station marts that have very limited food options beyond an abundance of convenience foods.

That's right, and supposedly we have people in this country who have managed to survive into adulthood on only Twinkees and Ho-Hos. Isn't that amazing? I think so.

 

[rain4venus]

I worked for years with kids who had to sleep at friend's houses and not eat once a day in cafeteria and majority of them did everything to have a better life. I'd much rather work with them than some entitled little brat who has been sucking on his parents' tit for all of his life and thinks that poor people are just lazy since the opportunity is always there.

a) then help them; no one wants to stop you from doing that
b) Womb Raider already said he wants to help hardworking poor people

 

[SunsFun]

a) then help them; no one wants to stop you from doing that
b) Womb Raider already said he wants to help hardworking poor people

A) I am and nobody. Why? I brought my experience up to demonstrate that I know what challenges are there for underprivileged that may not be obvious to him.
B) He doesn't have a problem with helping hardworking people. He also said that majority (or at least a large number) of those in poverty are poor because they are too lazy and don't want to work (since the opportunities are plentiful for them) therefore they don't deserve help. Do you not see any problem with this point of view?

 

[SunsFun]

That's right, and supposedly we have people in this country who have managed to survive into adulthood on only Twinkees and Ho-Hos. Isn't that amazing? I think so.

Yeah those are the morbidly obese and diabetic in their twenties. You never heard of them?

 

[Harpsx]

Why do these people not have the same ability to earn and spend as much money as possible? How do you plan on making sure these preventative care tactics are implemented effectively? Lots of preventative care involves screenings, and/or taking prophylactic medications. Medical noncompliance is a huge issue, and I would put money on it being higher in the lower class than upper/mid class. Lots of these people can't wrap their minds around the concept of "if you don't take this, bad things will happen" no matter how many times someone tells them... To them, the illness isn't real until they present with symptoms.

Education? When have I not been an advocate for education? I'm all for education but you can't make someone learn something they don't want to learn. Do you think a morbidly obese man who eats fast food every day puts any REAL thought into what he hears about eating healthy? I guarantee doctors "educate" the morbidly obese about the health hazards of the condition, but guess what, they ignore it. Same with smokers. Same with drug users. Same with a lot of things. Education is a problem, but in a many cases the patient is knowingly indulging in bad behavior - this shouldn't go without consequences.


I'm aware of the results. Did those results include people who dropped out, refusing to take the test? Nope. Was there someone in the room watching them take a piss? How many drugs did they screen for? Were they notified ahead of time? Urine drug tests aren't perfect and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how long a drug stays in your system. Nonetheless, the results are definitely lower than expected. Personally, I would rather spend a little extra money filtering out drug users than freely giving away welfare to everyone, but that's just me.



Ha, another personal question! I am pretty young, so a net-positive result is very unlikely. However, I have done well in school, have a job, support myself and have a promising career path that will eventually help society more than most. But yes, when you put it like that we are all parasites of society. Putting me in the same classification as some high school dropout, who lives off government funding, plays CoD all day and smokes weed isn't quite the same.



Morals aren't irrelevant. If we lived in your society Robin Hood, I could sit on couch and do absolutely nothing and be happy. Why would I not do that? Why would anyone work?

In the words of Jefferson: "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."




Lol. Again, you guys are twisting my views to support your own. I have no problem with helping people that are genuinely trying to better their life. My problem is with the person who doesn't do anything and lives off others.

I'm sorry you have such a pessimistic view of people that you think that everyone (or at least a vast majority) who is poor is lazy, or everyone who is non compliant doesn't want to get better.

I think it's important that you take a second to open your mind and try to empathize with people's situations and figure out why people make the decisions they do without judging them. Calling them lazy or stupid is a severe oversimplification of the world. Let me illustrate why empathy is important:

In Africa, truck drivers often brag about having sex with hundreds of women, despite knowing they are at high risk for contracting and spreading HIV/AIDS. Why do they not take preventative measures against HIV? Why do they continue to have lots of unprotected sex while on the road, despite all the information telling them they are at high risk? Is it because they are illogical? Stupid? Dont care about their life? Well they interview a bunch of truck drivers and found out why. The life of a truck driver in Africa is a dangerous one. They are at high risk of imminently dying from violence, MVCs, etc. Where as AIDS, they see as a long term issue, one that won't kill them until years later. Now their non compliance with preventative measures doesnt seem so illogical does it? I mean, if you could die tomorrow of a car crash, why would you worry about potentially dying of AIDS several years later? Now that we know why they make the decisions they do, we can devise and appropriate plan to help reduce HIV spread in the context of knowing how truck drivers think and operate.

This is why it is so important not to assume the worst of people, because you simply don't know their experiences. You have your own singular experience of the world. Other people have other experiences that shape why they act or think a certain way. Maybe a patient is non compliant with your orders to stay home and rest for their flu because they cant take a break from their job or else they wont be able to pay rent, and that is a sure thing where as the chance of their flu developing into pneumonia is not a sure thing. That is why they take the risk. Or maybe they dont have the money to pay for the drug or treatment plan you ordered them to take. Maybe they know a friend or family member who recently took a similar drug and had an adverse event and died, so they are afraid to trust your judgement about the drug you prescribed.

If you think these are all excuses, then I'm happy that you have lived a privileged life. But these are not magical fairy tale stories that are not possible. They are very well possible, and more likely than your image of a fat lazy bum who plays CoD all day. If you really still think these are excuses then I think you should try volunteering in a homeless shelter of inner city school and talk to some of these people and what their life is like, what brought them there. Don't just stand and serve soup in a soup kitchen, get to know the people you are serving. I think you'll quickly find most of them are not terrible, stupid, or lazy people, only people in terrible situations.

Edit: for grammar cause typing on my phone sucks.
edit again: did not realize how many typos I made..too lazy to fix.

 

[ruralsurg4now]

Yeah those are the morbidly obese and diabetic in their twenties. You never heard of them?

I think you're missing the point. How did they live for 20 years on Twinkies and Ho Hos to become morbidly obese and diabetic?

 

[SunsFun]

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[SunsFun]

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[SunsFun]

.

 

[SunsFun]

Why do these people not have the same ability to earn and spend as much money as possible? How do you plan on making sure these preventative care tactics are implemented effectively? Lots of preventative care involves screenings, and/or taking prophylactic medications. Medical noncompliance is a huge issue, and I would put money on it being higher in the lower class than upper/mid class. Lots of these people can't wrap their minds around the concept of "if you don't take this, bad things will happen" no matter how many times someone tells them... To them, the illness isn't real until they present with symptoms.

Education? When have I not been an advocate for education? I'm all for education but you can't make someone learn something they don't want to learn. Do you think a morbidly obese man who eats fast food every day puts any REAL thought into what he hears about eating healthy? I guarantee doctors "educate" the morbidly obese about the health hazards of the condition, but guess what, they ignore it. Same with smokers. Same with drug users. Same with a lot of things. Education is a problem, but in a many cases the patient is knowingly indulging in bad behavior - this shouldn't go without consequences.


I'm aware of the results. Did those results include people who dropped out, refusing to take the test? Nope. Was there someone in the room watching them take a piss? How many drugs did they screen for? Were they notified ahead of time? Urine drug tests aren't perfect and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how long a drug stays in your system. Nonetheless, the results are definitely lower than expected. Personally, I would rather spend a little extra money filtering out drug users than freely giving away welfare to everyone, but that's just me.



Ha, another personal question! I am pretty young, so a net-positive result is very unlikely. However, I have done well in school, have a job, support myself and have a promising career path that will eventually help society more than most. But yes, when you put it like that we are all parasites of society. Putting me in the same classification as some high school dropout, who lives off government funding, plays CoD all day and smokes weed isn't quite the same.



Morals aren't irrelevant. If we lived in your society Robin Hood, I could sit on couch and do absolutely nothing and be happy. Why would I not do that? Why would anyone work?

In the words of Jefferson: "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."




Lol. Again, you guys are twisting my views to support your own. I have no problem with helping people that are genuinely trying to better their life. My problem is with the person who doesn't do anything and lives off others.

See what you describing is an old idea that when you give to many entitlements to people they do not have incentive to work. The truth of the matter is that overwhelming majority of poor are either working full-time or are actively looking for work. Some gave up looks but would be happy to work if the jobs were available.

Playing CoD and smoking weed all day is something young adults of all social classes do in similar numbers. Go to any public college dorm and see for yourself. This behavior is not limited to the poor.

It's commendable that you're doing well in your studies but until you are a net positive you shouldn't be pointing fingers at others less fortunate than you and calling them parasites. As a matter of fact I can make a case for several professions and even industries in which the externality costs their work crates is higher than the net benefit they provide for society. In this sense they may all be called parasites, especially the really wealthy one. The reason I don't is because I realize that our decisions are not products of us along. We live surrounded by people and are influenced by our environment and opportunities presented. Therefore the society as a whole is just as guilty as every single individual deemed as parasite.

 

[rain4venus]

I'm a little confused to hear that eating out is cheaper for most poor people, considering one of the first things I've heard as far as advice for living on a med student budget is that you have to give up eating out and mostly make all your meals at home.

As for the calorie/$ thing, that's not actually an important factor for most of the poor people in the US for the reason SunsFun just mentioned. Most of our poor are actually malnourished AND overweight. These people need to eat more nutrients (frozen vegetables and fruits are a great source) and fewer calories. And like someone else said, potatoes are very cheap, even in the calorie/$ metric. Potatoes are high in calories and also in nutrients (especially if eating the skins) and are extremely easy to cook, stay good for quite a long time, and are great to supplement your frozen veggies if you're low on calories.

As an unrelated bit of curiosity...Do most of you think that there should be no restrictions on people's behavior in order to receive healthcare? As in, no hoops you have to jump through (as far as not drinking, smoking, doing drugs, etc...)

 

[SunsFun]

I think you're missing the point. How did they live for 20 years on Twinkies and Ho Hos to become morbidly obese and diabetic?

What do you mean by how? It certainly is not a great way to live. People get by with what they can afford. As a kid you have no control over what you can eat and if your family is really poor - that's all there is.

 

[ruralsurg4now]

See what you describing is an old idea that when you give to many entitlements to people they do not have incentive to work.

Yeah, don't you guys know that when you give entitlements to people, they work harder? HA HA HA HA!

 

[Womb Raider]

I'm sorry you have such a pessimistic view of people that you think that everyone (or at least a vast majority) who is poor is lazy, or everyone who is non compliant doesn't want to get better.

I think it's important that you take a second to open your mind and try to empathize with people's situations and figure out why people make the decisions they do without judging them. Calling them lazy or stupid is a severe oversimplification of the world. Let me illustrate why empathy is important:

In Africa, truck drivers often brag about having sex with hundreds of women, despite knowing they are at high risk for contracting and spreading HIV/AIDS. Why do they not take preventative measures against HIV? Why do they continue to have lots of unprotected sex while on the road, despite all the information telling them they are at high risk? Is it because they are illogical? Stupid? Dont care about their life? Well they interview a bunch of truck drivers and found out why. The life of a truck driver in Africa is a dangerous one. They are at high risk of imminently dying from violence, MVCs, etc. Where as AIDS, they see as a long term issue, one that won't kill them until years later. Now their non compliance with preventative measures doesnt seem so illogical does it? I mean, if you could die tomorrow of a car crash, why would you worry about potentially dying of AIDS several years later? Now that we know why they make the decisions they do, we can devise and appropriate plan to help reduce HIV spread in the context of knowing how truck drivers think and operate.

This is why it is so important not to assume the worst of people, because you simply don't know their experiences. You have your own singular experience of the world. Other people have other experiences that shape why they act or think a certain way. Maybe a patient is non compliant with your orders to stay home and rest for their flu because they cant take a break from their job or else they wont be able to pay rent, and that is a sure thing where as the chance of their flu developing into pneumonia is nlt a sure thing. That is why they take the risk. Or maybe they dont have the money to pay for the drug or treatment plan you ordered them to take. Maybe they know a friend or family member who recently took a similar drug and had an adverse event and died, so they are afraid to trust your judgement about the drug you prescribed.

If you think these are all excuses, then I'm happy that you have lived a privlidged life. But these are not fairytale stories that are not possible. They are very well possible, and more likely than your image of a fat lazy bum who plays CoD all day. If you really still think these are excuses then I think you should try volunteering in a homless shelter of inner city school and talk to some of these people and what their life is like, what brought them there. Dont just stand and serve soup in a soup kitchen, get to know the people you are serving. I think you'll quickly find most of them are not terrible, stupid, or lazy people, only people in terrible situations.

First of all, I think you are talking about sympathy. In my opinion, it's impossible for someone to "empathize" with another when you haven't experienced it yourself. I definitely haven't driven a truck in Africa dodging bazooka missiles and IEDs. Empathy is identifying on a level much deeper than sympathy, i.e. "I have walked in your shoes." It would be silly for a man to say he empathizes with a women experiencing the pains of childbirth - rather, this is sympathy.

Second, I understand what you're talking about and to an extent I don't see these as mere "excuses". However, in the real world, a doctor doesn't have time to sit down and baby every single patient. That isn't their job. Yes, they may be noncompliant for a perfectly understandable reason, but they are noncompliant nonetheless. When we're talking about saving money, it doesn't matter why they are noncompliant, they either are, or they aren't.

In the end, everyone has a reason not to do something. We are great at rationalizing our own decisions. But, as far as the effectiveness of a policy is concerned, the reasons WHY they are noncompliant are pretty much irrelevant.

 

[ruralsurg4now]

What do you mean by how? It certainly is not a great way to live. People get by with what they can afford. As a kid you have no control over what you can eat and if your family is really poor - that's all there is.

I know, but you're still missing the point. How did someone grow up and live for 20 years on Twinkees and Ho Hos? I don't care that they're fat and diabetic. I'm amazed that they're alive and breathing. Aren't you? No? Don't care?

 

[SunsFun]

I'm a little confused to hear that eating out is cheaper for most poor people, considering one of the first things I've heard as far as advice for living on a med student budget is that you have to give up eating out and mostly make all your meals at home.

As for the calorie/$ thing, that's not actually an important factor for most of the poor people in the US for the reason SunsFun just mentioned. Most of our poor are actually malnourished AND overweight. These people need to eat more nutrients (frozen vegetables and fruits are a great source) and fewer calories. And like someone else said, potatoes are very cheap, even in the calorie/$ metric. Potatoes are high in calories and also in nutrients (especially if eating the skins) and are extremely easy to cook, stay good for quite a long time, and are great to supplement your frozen veggies if you're low on calories.

As an unrelated bit of curiosity...Do most of you think that there should be no restrictions on people's behavior in order to receive healthcare? As in, no hoops you have to jump through (as far as not drinking, smoking, doing drugs, etc...)

Who told you that potatoes are that good for you in large quantities? They have a really high glycemic index and as someone who gave nutritional advice professionally, i told people to stay away from them (unless you can eat them cold after you boil them),

Look, I don't wanna do this but I can look for some studies that show how much junk stuff you can buy from inner-city convenience store vs. how much "healthy" (for convenience store) food you can buy. It's simple arithmetic and the numbers will not be in your favor.

There should be no restriction on behavior because t is a product of both individual and his surroundings (including his upbringing). To penalize people for risky/unhealthy behavior is to neglect the impact of society and is discriminatory in that it prefers certain people over others. Seven Day Adventists are on average much healthier and do not engage in risky behavior. Should they get free care while everyone else is paying?

 

[rain4venus]

Who told you that potatoes are that good for you in large quantities?

This is something I didn't say.

There should be no restriction on behavior because t is a product of both individual and his surroundings (including his upbringing). To penalize people for risky/unhealthy behavior is to neglect the impact of society and is discriminatory in that it prefers certain people over others.

So you shouldn't be able to deny care to someone because of something like drug use?

 

[SunsFun]

I know, but you're still missing the point. How did someone grow up and live for 20 years on Twinkees and Ho Hos? I don't care that they're fat and diabetic. I'm amazed that they're alive and breathing. Aren't you? No? Don't care?

They get a free lunch they eat in school although it is not that great nutrition-wise. The family sometimes affords better things, but their diet is still primarily composed of junk food. I don't need to tell you that human body can be fairly adaptable and able to get what it needs even from subpar diet. Although that diet still ends up hurting them in a long-run.

 

[ruralsurg4now]

To penalize people for risky/unhealthy behavior is to neglect the impact of society and is discriminatory in that it prefers certain people over others.

No wonder liberals don't understand what insurance is.

 

[BillrothI]

Who told you that potatoes are that good for you in large quantities? They have a really high glycemic index and as someone who gave nutritional advice professionally, i told people to stay away from them (unless you can eat them cold after you boil them),

You should not be giving out nutritional advice professionally unless you are a registered dietitian. Glycemic index is largely irrelevant, even in the context of type II diabetes. Potatoes are a perfectly acceptable source of nutrition and can be part of a healthy diet. In fact, having a potato with dinner several days a week is an excellent, inexpensive option for a wide range of people.

-Bill

 

[ruralsurg4now]

They get a free lunch they eat in school although it is not that great nutrition-wise. The family sometimes affords better things, but their diet is still primarily composed of junk food. I don't need to tell you that human body can be fairly adaptable and able to get what it needs even from subpar diet. Although that diet still ends up hurting them in a long-run.

Wow, that free lunch is able to neutralize the food desert? That's pretty incredible. It's almost like you're just shoveling s**t desperately.

 

[SunsFun]

This is something I didn't say.


So you shouldn't be able to deny care to someone because of something like drug use?

I see a drug dependency as a form or psychological illness and a manifestation of societal problems. Look at the number of people getting addicted as minors. How are they any more guilty than any adult in their life and society as a whole?

 

[Lya]

Another thread gets trashed...

#ruralsurg4ever
#stoppedreadingafterfirst3posts

Edit: I couldn't help it.

 

[rain4venus]

I see a drug dependency as a form or psychological illness and a manifestation of societal problems. Look at the number of people getting addicted as minors. How are they any more guilty than any adult in their life and society as a whole?

So you think alcoholics should have the same opportunity to get on transplant lists, even without showing any indication that they will stop drinking after getting a new liver?

 

[SunsFun]

You should not be giving out nutritional advice professionally unless you are a registered dietitian. Glycemic index is largely irrelevant, even in the context of type II diabetes. Potatoes are a perfectly acceptable source of nutrition and can be part of a healthy diet. In fact, having a potato with dinner several days a week is an excellent, inexpensive option for a wide range of people.

-Bill

You shouldn't tell people what to do without knowing anything about them. You are wrong habit glycemic index and the rest of your comment is irrelevant to the point I was making.

But fine:
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/what-should-you-eat/pyramid/

I am sure you can read about potatoes there. They also provide references in case you want to see primary source.

 

[ruralsurg4now]

I see a drug dependency as a form or psychological illness and a manifestation of societal problems. Look at the number of people getting addicted as minors. How are they any more guilty than any adult in their life and society as a whole?

Yeah, guys, don't blame the individual. It's society!

 

[rain4venus]

You shouldn't tell people what to do without knowing anything about them. You are wrong habit glycemic index and the rest of your comment is irrelevant to the point I was making.

But fine:
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/what-should-you-eat/pyramid/

I am sure you can read about potatoes there. They also provide references in case you want to see primary source.

Ah yes the food pyramid... the most honest, unbiased example of nutrition information available....

 

[SunsFun]

So you think alcoholics should have the same opportunity to get on transplant lists, even without showing any indication that they will stop drinking after getting a new liver?

Do you suggest giving out transplants on the basis of "value to society"? I heard they did it somewhere and it was a disaster.

 

[SunsFun]

Ah yes the food pyramid... the most honest, unbiased example of nutrition information available....

Lol this is not the same pyramid you're referring to. Follow the link please and read it first.

 

[ruralsurg4now]

Do you suggest giving out transplants on the basis of "value to society"? I heard they did it somewhere and it was a disaster.

Oh, yeah, where was that?

 

[BillrothI]

You shouldn't tell people what to do without knowing anything about them. You are wrong habit glycemic index and the rest of your comment is irrelevant to the point I was making.

But fine:
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/what-should-you-eat/pyramid/

I am sure you can read about potatoes there. They also provide references in case you want to see primary source.

No need to get defensive. You can do whatever you want, but I would suggest you exercise caution. It's against the law to prescribe diets if you aren't an RD. Granted, you'd probably never face litigation, but it's something to be aware of.

In any case, GI is only relevant if somebody eats a certain food in isolation. If you eat a potato with a meal, or add butter or sour cream, it will have a very different effect on blood sugar. And even if one were to regularly eat a plain potato for lunch, for example, it's unlikely to have a dramatic effect on health if his/her overall diet is reasonably healthy.

I'll leave it at that since this is getting off topic. I hope I didn't offend you. If you are really interested in learning more about the glycemic index, feel free to PM me.

-Bill

 

[notbobtrustme]

 

[SunsFun]

No need to get defensive. You can do whatever you want, but I would suggest you exercise caution. It's against the law to prescribe diets if you aren't an RD. Granted, you'd probably never face litigation, but it's something to be aware of.

In any case, GI is only relevant if somebody eats a certain food in isolation. If you eat a potato with a meal, or add butter or sour cream, it will have a very different effect on blood sugar. And even if one were to regularly eat a plain potato for lunch, for example, it's unlikely to have a dramatic effect on health if his/her overall diet is reasonably healthy.

I'll leave it at that since this is getting off topic. I hope I didn't offend you. If you are really interested in learning more about the glycemic index, feel free to PM me.

-Bill

You're fine. Thanks for info, but I am legally allowed to give nutritional advice (at least in my state) as it was part of my job description and I was trained for it. Regardless, this is really off-topic.

I agree with your point that potatoes can be a part of your diet but that was not what the discussion was about. From the data I looked at, Americans eat too many potatoes and not too few. It's also true that it is your composite Gi index that counts but normally the rest of the foods consumed have fairly high GI index too so potatoes are part of problem. From the link I posted you can see that they recommend reducing the amount of potatoes consumed relative to other types of food. I largely agree with their recommendations for a lay person.

 

[SunsFun]

Yeah, you're right. I am just basically arguing with myself at this point. There is only so many times you can repeat something.

 

[rain4venus]

You shouldn't tell people what to do without knowing anything about them. You are wrong habit glycemic index and the rest of your comment is irrelevant to the point I was making.

But fine:
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/what-should-you-eat/pyramid/

I am sure you can read about potatoes there. They also provide references in case you want to see primary source.

This doesn't take into account people who....aren't getting enough calories. Any time I've switched to a diet of primarily vegetables (where potatoes don't count) and beans, I've lost weight very quickly (at my BMI this isn't a good thing) Adding potatoes to my diet helps me maintain my weight without resorting to fried foods or fast food burgers. If you look back at my first post about potatoes, I said that they can be a supplementary source of calories (one that does, indeed provide substantial vitamins) when you can't get enough from vegetables. You know, because people were saying that poor people couldn't afford to get enough calories through vegetables and healthy foods. I didn't say people should eat potatoes instead of vegetables. I said they should eat them instead of fast food if they needed more calories.
Brown rice (a whole grain like Harvard suggests as an option) is possibly more calories for cheaper, but doesn't have the vitamins potatoes do. Also, the rice has a slightly worse glycemic load.

Brown Rice
Russet Potatoes

 

[SunsFun]

This doesn't take into account people who....aren't getting enough calories. Any time I've switched to a diet of primarily vegetables (where potatoes don't count) and beans, I've lost weight very quickly (at my BMI this isn't a good thing) Adding potatoes to my diet helps me maintain my weight without resorting to fried foods or fast food burgers. If you look back at my first post about potatoes, I said that they can be a supplementary source of calories (one that does, indeed provide substantial vitamins) when you can't get enough from vegetables. You know, because people were saying that poor people couldn't afford to get enough calories through vegetables and healthy foods. I didn't say people should eat potatoes instead of vegetables. I said they should eat them instead of fast food if they needed more calories.
Brown rice (a whole grain like Harvard suggests as an option) is possibly more calories for cheaper, but doesn't have the vitamins potatoes do. Also, the rice has a slightly worse glycemic load.

Brown Rice
Russet Potatoes

Unless I am too tired to read that correctly brown rice has actually lesser load and much lesser overall index. Personally, I prefer quinoa and buckwheat to brown rice.

This all is beside the point though. Overall it is harder for poor people to eat healthy than it is for rich people. For some of them it is quite frankly impossible due to combination of lack of access, costs, knowledge, time, etc. There is plenty of academic work studying this phenomenon, so we should look at that rather than seeing the trees but not the forest.

 

[KnuxNole]

Rural4surg will be singing the song "Single Forever" with the way he rants haha

 

[ruralsurg4now]

Rural4surg will be singing the song "Single Forever" with the way he rants haha

Yeah, but that's still better than being uninformed and ignorant.

 

[rain4venus]

ugh...double post.

 

[rain4venus]

Unless I am too tired to read that correctly brown rice has actually lesser load and much lesser overall index. Personally, I prefer quinoa and buckwheat to brown rice.

This all is beside the point though. Overall it is harder for poor people to eat healthy than it is for rich people. For some of them it is quite frankly impossible due to combination of lack of access, costs, knowledge, time, etc. There is plenty of academic work studying this phenomenon, so we should look at that rather than seeing the trees but not the forest.

Quinoa and buckwheat are much more expensive though. We're talking about ways for poor people to improve their diets (from things like fast food) without bankrupting themselves. Not to mention that aside from being a complete protein, buckwheat isn't actually a whole lot better for you than a potato. Again, potatoes have more vitamins, though buckwheat has more of many minerals, and the GL of buckwheat is slightly lower but it has a MUCH higher omega-6 to omega-3 ratio. Quinoa fares about the same against white potatoes. I'd argue that at that point it depends whether you're more in need of vitamins or protein. And whether or not you can afford quinoa.

Furthermore, the Harvard article repeated again and again that "potatoes aren't vegetables." Although I agree with this (potatoes are better seen as an alternative to grains than green/colored vegetables), they don't specify that this applies to white potatoes. Sweet potatoes have a lot more vitamins than white potatoes, and as long as you don't douse them in brown sugar are a healthy choice. They're also cheap, but unfortunately not as cheap as they once were because they're such a big fad right now.

Glycemic load for brown rice was 11 and potatoes was 10. They are very close to the same, but 11>10. I had it set to 100 g of each (a baked potato with skin and cooked brown rice) but when I linked it, it might have reset the serving sizes to compare a cup of rice to a whole potato. GI wasn't mentioned that I saw.


On the other topic...You're aware that in the US, most liver transplants require a period of abstinence from alcohol, right? At least tell me you're in favor of compulsory organ donation, then, if you want to give livers to people who are going to abuse the new one just as bad (which many do already, but of course there's only so much you can do to prevent that) when there are already not enough to go around. Putting restrictions like these out there make people more likely to want to volunteer their organs, because people like to think that their gift of life is going to someone who will cherish it and do anything to stay healthy as long as possible.

I'm not saying we shouldn't treat drug/alcohol addiction. I definitely think we should. But I don't have a problem denying organs to people who refuse to get such treatment until everyone else has received their liver (i.e. indefinitely.) And you can be certain that this is not coming from someone who has no personal experience with the effects of alcoholism...

P.S. Sorry if I left any thoughts unfinished above. I jumped around a lot but tried to finish everything.

 

[BlueLabel]

You literally described every country in Europe. Europe gives citizens very generous benefits and they have no problem competing in the global economy.

What? Are you not aware that Europe is in a cataclysmic economic crisis ATM? Does PIIGS mean anything to you?

Not weighing in on the topic being debated with this remark, just pointing out some dubious assertions

 

[Shibby0709]

That's right, and supposedly we have people in this country who have managed to survive into adulthood on only Twinkees and Ho-Hos. Isn't that amazing? I think so.

I know you think this is funny, but things like this are a lot more common then you likely realize. I was raised by a single mother who worked evenings and nights. My sister, my brother, and I relied on our grandmother to provide us with food, and she also worked full-time. Most days we ate McDonald's or other fast food. In addition to this, we rarely went outside because our neighborhood was dangerous.

By the time I was 17 I weighed about 320 lbs. I had no idea about how to exercise, how to eat right, or how to take care of my health. I'd been overweight since my parents divorced when I was 7. I had never participated in PE and I had few friends.

When I was 17, I decided to change things about myself. Over the next two years I lost over 140 lbs., made top grades in school, and made dozens of new friends. But it was hard. Ridiculously hard. Way more difficult than anything else I've ever had to do in my adult life. At that time, I was the only one fighting for myself. Now imagine if I had one more thing going against me. Imagine if my grandmother wasn't there to help my mother take care of us. Imagine if I had had to learn English as a second language or if I had suffered from a learning disability or if I had mental disability such as bipolar disorder or schizophrenia.

I'm one of the lucky ones. I'm one of the few people in my high school who made it through college, and the only one from my neighborhood that I know of (aside my siblings). Still, I don't think I'm better than my neighbors. I'm just luckier. One of my close neighbors is handicapped. His parents got pregnant and married when they were in high school. Another neighbor lost his mother to diabetes while he was in high school (and didn't have a father). Some of my neighbors are exposed to drugs and crime that I've been fortunate enough to avoid. Most of my neighbors just have had less opportunity than even I have had.

People on the bottom of society are fighting harder than you believe in order to make it through. Life is not a competition. You don't have to cross the finish line first. It's also not a zero sum game. Helping other people doesn't make you weaker. There are real people out there who suffer from poverty, and I'm one of them. So every time that you laugh or scoff at the difficulties that poverty-stricken people have to face in their day-to-day life, keep in mind that you are laughing at real, struggling people. You are laughing at me, you are laughing at my friends, and you are laughing at my family.

 

[Birdie89]

I really enjoyed this article. Thank you.