Early I know, but how did you construct your rank order list?

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Doctor Bagel

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I had my last interview this week and am consequently thinking about how to go about this. I know I can't submit it until mid-January (and will probably change it after that), but I'm trying to put some rough list together closer to the actual interviews. So how did you do it, and did your method work? Right now I'm thinking I'll use some mix of location, program attributes and gut feeling.

So far I feel like all the places I've looked at are good programs with happy residents, so I don't have any automatic no's.
 
With this much ambivalence, I would suggest something akin to the NBA draft lottery.

Write all the program names on a scrap of paper. Throw it in a hat. If there are programs you like a little more than the others, throw in a few extra scraps with that program, to give it a little better chance.

Then go through, pull out the names, write them down, and see how it feels. Move them up or down a bit. What you will probably find is that you have preferences you didn't necessarily know you have. These are all gut preferences, mind you, but gut preferences are, at this point, by far the most important.

Do this a few times, and you'll probably start seeing patterns of how you feel about the programs.

Another possibility, do the same thing with scraps of paper, and then set up a tournament bracket NCAA style. Do that a few times, and the strange head to heads will probably give you some insight into what you want.

It's hard. I could imagine myself very happy at 9 of the 11 places I interviewed, but in the end, the program I liked best before interviews was still the program I liked best after interviews, although there were certainly some challenges to that rank throughout the season.
 
Well, I've been able to divide them into tiers, but 5 programs are in my top tier right now. I think I know #1 but 2 through 5 are a little trickier. Most likely, below 5 it doesn't matter, but who knows how the match will go this year. I have interviewed at some programs that I feel aren't ideally right for me, which is why they're in the bottom tier or low mid-tier, but yeah, none have actually been bad enough (in fact, they've all been "good") to where they fall off the list.

Adding that I agree with the idea of making a list to see how I feel about it. That truly brings out the gut feeling factor.
 
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I only interviewed at 7 programs, but this is what I've been doing: 24 hours after the interview day I assess how I felt about the program. I tend to like everything in the thick of the interview day, but settle down once I am removed from the department. Then I rank the program against the other ones I have visited so my list is always changing.
 
I only interviewed at 7 programs, but this is what I've been doing: 24 hours after the interview day I assess how I felt about the program. I tend to like everything in the thick of the interview day, but settle down once I am removed from the department. Then I rank the program against the other ones I have visited so my list is always changing.

I agree. I've been adapting my list as I go. This way I compare programs while they are still fresh in my head. I interview into January, so I won't have a final ROL for awhile.
 
I was doing the list after the interview, but I reached a point where programs started tying. This is the downside at interviewing at more programs.
 
I have some advice for you...it's a strategy I developed for my friends struggling with what specialty to go into. It's called the "Gun to the head" test. Here's how to do it...

1. Think carefully about your choice
2. Have someone else (preferably a friend who is also a bit scary) take their fingers and form a gun, with your middle and forefingers making up the barrel.
3. They then put the "gun" to your head (to work they need to actually place the barrel up against your skull) and say, "Where do you most want to go?" A countdown then begins
4. You have to answer within 5 seconds...if you don't, you get shot in the head. You are not allowed to ask questions, extend the timer, etc. If you don't answer, your brains go splat. Period.
5. In those five seconds, as your life flashes before your eyes, your intellect and intuition will come together like never before, and your lips will produce an answer that comes from your soul...whatever you say, this is where you should go.

This totally works...have fun!
 
If any of you interviewed at Emory, you know that the interim chair there usually gives the applicants good, unvarnished advice as a group at the end of the day. I don't completely agree with it (I'll explain this at the end), but it gave me new insight into the process. I'll try to paraphrase his comments as best I can.

Applicants tend to rely too much on "gut feeling," and they need to have the discipline to sit down before lists are due and compare the programs based on five factors. Assign a score from 1 to 5 for each of the five factors, and tally them up. These scores may be modified as you go on more interviews (i.e. a program that scores a 5 on interview day may be clearly surpassed by a program later in the season, and that 5 becomes a 3 or 4). A lot of applicants that rely on "gut feeling" end up matching at the last program they visit and like, which is ridiculous.

The five factors are as follows:
1. Resident satisfaction. If you choose to weight any of these five criteria, weight this one.
- Commentary: This one is especially difficult for me, as residents seem really happy on interview day pretty much everywhere. I can detect subtle differences, but those are often explainable by the fact that it's a Sunday vs Friday night, that someone is on a tougher rotation, etc. I feel like I don't get a straight answer to most of the questions I ask. Even if I force them to say something they'd rather change, they just clam up. So this hasn't helped me much at all.
2. Program Director.
- Commentary: I usually can get a pretty good feel for how much residents like their director, and I also feel like I get a good sense of which program directors are enthusiastic about their jobs and which ones are going through the motions on interview day. One of the higher yield comparators, in my experience.
3. Diversity of program strengths.
- Commentary: Every program says they have good psychotherapy training. The best questions to ask about this is how supervision works. Patient diversity, site diversity, and research opportunity are somewhat easier for the applicant to assess.
4. Leadership.
- Commentary: Hard for me to know what to do with this, unless I go to a place where applicants get one-on-one time with the chair. At some programs, the chair is in transition, but I don't think that this has much bearing on my training.
5. Location
Commentary: Obviously a very subjective criterion, but one of the easier things to compare.

Common mistakes applicants make:
1. Basing too much of their impression on the weather during the interview day
2. Basing too much of their impression on whether their interviews went swimmingly well or poorly - you never know who is just having a bad day

I agree that these are all (with the possible exception of leadership) good things to take time to research and take notes on before, during, or after the interview day. I can think of a lot of other important factors, too (program size, resident autonomy, curriculum flexibility, fellowship opportunities, etc). I also agree that you have to sit down and figure all these things out. But if you rely on a numerical formula to make your rank list, you're also making a huge mistake. Chances are, the "score" will correlate very strongly with your actual impression. But no formula is perfect, and you have to rely on a synthesized gestalt to make your list. Certainly, the factors described should inform your impression, but ultimately, if you rank a place you actually prefer less over your favorite programs, you'll be unhappy on match day (and possibly long afterwards) if the match actually works out the way you designed.

Since I have nothing else to do over Xmas break, I'm going to work on this in an excel spreadsheet. Should be exciting....
 
Cookymonster, I heard that same advice at Northwestern from the assistant PD, and now I'm remembering that he said he got it from interviewing at Emory. I agree with you, though, that no formula is going to be perfect and that whatever number we assign is going to influenced by gut feelings whether we try to avoid them or not. And yes, happy residents -- so hard to figure out.

On weather, weather on interview day yeah not so important. Weather overall = important at least to me. I lived somewhere where I really hated the climate (a climate that most people loved, btw), and it had a definite negative impact on my life.

Hmm, maybe I'll put together a spreadsheet and see what comes out just for another list to play around with.
 
I was doing the list after the interview, but I reached a point where programs started tying. This is the downside at interviewing at more programs.

Out of curiousity, how many did you interview at? I'll probably finish with around 8-12 interviews.

Based on what I'm seeing so far, I feel that I would be pretty happy matching within my top 5 or so. After that, I'll be disappointed, but better than scrambling.

For this reason, Even after I have my preliminary list I'll probably break them up into 2 tiers. We can call them "Ideal" and "If shi* hits the fan". Then I'll go over again exactly what draws me to each program.

I would spend the most time evaluating your top 3 since most US MD students end up matching at one of their top 3 places. That and once the rank list gets down to 6 or 7, my happyness would probably be equal among the bottom of my list.
 
Out of curiousity, how many did you interview at? I'll probably finish with around 8-12 interviews.

Based on what I'm seeing so far, I feel that I would be pretty happy matching within my top 5 or so. After that, I'll be disappointed, but better than scrambling.

For this reason, Even after I have my preliminary list I'll probably break them up into 2 tiers. We can call them "Ideal" and "If shi* hits the fan". Then I'll go over again exactly what draws me to each program.

I would spend the most time evaluating your top 3 since most US MD students end up matching at one of their top 3 places. That and once the rank list gets down to 6 or 7, my happyness would probably be equal among the bottom of my list.

13 total, and I'd honestly be decently happy at at least 10 of those places. Where are the bad psych programs? I haven't seen them yet.
 
I've done 10 and have 4 more remaining. The only ones that clearly stand out to me as undesirable are those in which everyone is married and/or over half of the class came from the affiliated medical school.
 
13 total, and I'd honestly be decently happy at at least 10 of those places. Where are the bad psych programs? I haven't seen them yet.

I definitely have seen more variety than you my friend. I've had some amazing surprises, and a couple disappointments.

1 program I visited I would not wish on my worst enemy - will not be ranking.

Another program that is easily a Top-25 program (based on random lists on here) just doesn't fit me. I think there is a happy medium between the amount of patients you see and the amount of time you should be reading. This program saw WAY too many patients. Residents did not seem to have time to give patients the time they required, and they looked too tired to do it anyway. There are probably people on this site that will rank it very highly, but it didn't mesh with me.

Overall though, I've really enjoyed the interview season so far. Minus the cost, I am having lots of fun, and all these interviews are definitely worth finding the perfect program for me.
 
How about asking your significant other(s) for input?

After all, *they* will have to find a job there and are likely to have more time to themselves there in the foreseeable than the person matching will have.

If partner/spouse is happy, life can't be all bad. 🙄
 
13 total, and I'd honestly be decently happy at at least 10 of those places. Where are the bad psych programs? I haven't seen them yet.

Exactly! Unless we're in for a rude awakening, people in psych are just nice. The very nature of the field means there are people involved in programs that are in tune to what makes a happy healthy resident.
 
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