Effect of COVID-19 on current applicants?

[croez]

I guess this is a question more for the adcom members here on SDN, but is the current pandemic affecting current medical school admissions at all? What will the effect be, if any, on waitlist movement?

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[Goro]

I guess this is a question more for the adcom members here on SDN, but is the current pandemic affecting current medical school admissions at all? What will the effect be, if any, on waitlist movement?

Hasn't affected my school at all, other than going to video interviews.

trying to predict what effect this will have on admissions is a fools errand.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

I guess this is a question more for the adcom members here on SDN, but is the current pandemic affecting current medical school admissions at all? What will the effect be, if any, on waitlist movement?

Too early to know in my opinion. Why don't you ask the admissions reps at the upcoming AAMC Virtual Fair? I doubt you'll get a real answer because their committees probably haven't presented or approved a process to adjust to the situation.

 

[LizzyM]

I would expect a tiny bit of waitlist movement if there are admitted students who are unable to matriculate due to Covid-19 (seriously ill, disabled, deceased). There could also be a more generous deferral policy on the part of some med schools meaning that there may be a very, very small number of seats already filled for 2021 before the application cycle even opens.

Will med schools cut some slack to applicants who don't have shadowing, research, clinical experience, etc? I think that this is not likely given the large number of applicants we have to choose from. This may make things easier for reapplicants and folks who got there ducks in a row more than a year ago, over rising college seniors who expected to sprint to the finish line over these next 3 months. It might suck to have to take a gap year (although in hind sight, most of those who do are glad they did) but that could be the situation for the next few years.

 

[EvanHansenFan]

Is it possible that MCAT scores will not be used for the upcoming application cycle, given that many testing dates from March onwards have been cancelled?

I think there would be an extension on submission of AMCAS, but am not sure how med schools would account for people who have already taken the MCAT and scored well, those who are looking to retake, and those that have yet to take the exam.

 

[KnightDoc]

Is it possible that MCAT scores will not be used for the upcoming application cycle, given that many testing dates from March onwards have been cancelled?

I think there would be an extension on submission of AMCAS, but am not sure how med schools would account for people who have already taken the MCAT and scored well, those who are looking to retake, and those that have yet to take the exam.

Other than some wild speculation on the Interweb, nobody in admissions has indicated any willingness to relax the MCAT requirement. I'm no adcom, but I have been following this obsessively as a potentially effected test taker.

Feedback from that AAMC virtual fair last week varied from accepting later scores in recognition of the situation to making absolutely no accommodation at all and making candidates sit out a year if they can't meet inflexible deadlines. The official word from AAMC is to stay tuned, with an implication that additional dates will be added between now and the end of the summer, as needed and as the situation allows.

Technically, and although it is much less than ideal, most schools will accept scores from anywhere between the end of August and the end of the testing year in September for the application cycle that will open in June. As a result, if someone has everything except an MCAT score ready to go, one could theoretically submit an application in June with an MCAT to follow.

To date, no school has indicated that it will waive the MCAT requirement because of the situation, although I guess anything is possible if dates continue to be cancelled and they cannot be rescheduled before August-September.

 

[LizzyM]

Currently, the number of applicants nation-wide is more than double the number of seats nation-wide. Yikes! Most schools have ~100 seats to fill and they get thousands of applications. if the number of applications to the school fell by half and we had to interview 30% of the applicants rather than 15% do you think that the quality would decline in the least? i don't think so. Frankly, I don't see med schools seeing prospective applicants lack of MCAT to be the school's problem. They are not going anywhere and they alread have far more strong applicants than seats so, if anything, this drop off in applicants will make their jobs easier and things will bounce back -- likely by May/June 2021.

 

[KnightDoc]

Currently, the number of applicants nation-wide is more than double the number of seats nation-wide. Yikes! Most schools have ~100 seats to fill and they get thousands of applications. if the number of applications to the school fell by half and we had to interview 30% of the applicants rather than 15% do you think that the quality would decline in the least? i don't think so. Frankly, I don't see med schools seeing prospective applicants lack of MCAT to be the school's problem. They are not going anywhere and they alread have far more strong applicants than seats so, if anything, this drop off in applicants will make their jobs easier and things will bounce back -- likely by May/June 2021.

I REALLLLLLY hope you are wrong!! If not, next year will be a great time to apply (and I won't be in a position to take advantage! ) and the following year will be absolutely brutal for applicants when things bounce back. For what it's worth, yes, assuming applicants' statistical profiles are evenly distributed across test dates, and assuming 10 test dates are lost this year and not made up, applicant quality will absolutely decline in the least, even though schools will still be able to easily fill their classes.

You could lose around 30% of prospective applicants. Reducing the pool from 50,000 to 35,000 will still allow you to fill 20,000 seats, but every tier of school will be competing for a significantly reduced pool of applicants, even the very top. Hopefully it won't come to that, because, if it does, it will mean around 65,000 applicants will be competing for 20,000 spots in 2021-22! Hopefully, schools through AAMC will collectively do something to avoid this potential feast and famine scenario, which will serve neither their interests nor those of the applicants (other than those fortunate enough to be in a position to apply next year).

By the way, I am assuming a 30% reduction in applications. Using your assumption of a 50% reduction, yes, 25,000 applicants for 20,000 seats would be a disaster for the schools collectively, and they would end up admitting thousands of students they would never admit under ordinary circumstances. I honestly don't think they would ever allow that to happen. I don't mean to suggest for a second that schools would waive the MCAT requirement, but I would bet serious money that AAMC would schedule additional test dates and schools would extend next year's cycle before they would allow applications to fall by 30-50%.

 

[A_Knowbody]

You could lose around 30% of prospective applicants.

I think you're vastly overestimating the amount of people who take the MCAT between March and July (or whenever testing services resume) in order to apply to the current cycle. Either way, all of this is speculation anyways. No body knows how the cycle will be impacted. Continue doing your best to create YOUR best application. That includes a future MCAT score.

 

[Goro]

I REALLLLLLY hope you are wrong!! If not, next year will be a great time to apply (and I won't be in a position to take advantage! ) and the following year will be absolutely brutal for applicants when things bounce back. For what it's worth, yes, assuming applicants' statistical profiles are evenly distributed across test dates, and assuming 10 test dates are lost this year and not made up, applicant quality will absolutely decline in the least, even though schools will still be able to easily fill their classes.

You could lose around 30% of prospective applicants. Reducing the pool from 50,000 to 35,000 will still allow you to fill 20,000 seats, but every tier of school will be competing for a significantly reduced pool of applicants, even the very top. Hopefully it won't come to that, because, if it does, it will mean around 65,000 applicants will be competing for 20,000 spots in 2021-22! Hopefully, schools through AAMC will collectively do something to avoid this potential feast and famine scenario, which will serve neither their interests nor those of the applicants (other than those fortunate enough to be in a position to apply next year).

By the way, I am assuming a 30% reduction in applications. Using your assumption of a 50% reduction, yes, 25,000 applicants for 20,000 seats would be a disaster for the schools collectively, and they would end up admitting thousands of students they would never admit under ordinary circumstances. I honestly don't think they would ever allow that to happen. I don't mean to suggest for a second that schools would waive the MCAT requirement, but I would bet serious money that AAMC would schedule additional test dates and schools would extend next year's cycle before they would allow applications to fall by 30-50%.

It's a wartime situation and people are going to have to make sacrifices. This isn't about just you

 

[LizzyM]

Many of the people I interviewed in this past cycle took the MCAT in January 2019 or in Aug/Sept 2018. if that holds true in the upcoming cycle, missing those who would have taken it in May-July 2020 wouldn't affect us in the least.

 

[KnightDoc]

It's a wartime situation and people are going to have to make sacrifices. This isn't about just you

Yes -- it would be great if the schools would step up and accept a little inconvenience. I am speculating that it will be in their interest to do just that.

 

[KnightDoc]

I think you're vastly overestimating the amount of people who take the MCAT between March and July (or whenever testing services resume) in order to apply to the current cycle. Either way, all of this is speculation anyways. No body knows how the cycle will be impacted. Continue doing your best to create YOUR best application. That includes a future MCAT score.

I didn't do anything fancy to come up with that number, but I don't have access to the granular data to do so. I just went with 10 dates from March 27th through June 5th out of 30 possible dates in the 2020 testing year corresponding to 30% of applicants, give or take. Of course, many people took the test between January and March 14th, many more will take the test in June (or July or even August) and still use it for this cycle, and still more took the test in a prior year. That's why I'm guestimating a 30% reduction and not 100%.

@gonnif is correct that 80,000/yr take the test, but that only translates to 50,000 applications, so I'm ignoring those test takers who don't apply in the upcoming cycle, or who are reapplicants. He's also right that "prime time" is the months prior to when the cycle opens, but that also doesn't take into account reapplicants and those who took the test in a prior year. So, I'm pretty comfortable with 15,000 (30% of 50,000) as a pretty decent rough estimate of the number of potential applicants (not test takers) who will be impacted if 10 dates between March and June are cancelled, if additional dates are not added and if schools do not extend the cycle to allow those additional dates to be used in the current cycle. As you said, we'll see!

 

[deleted895568]

@gonnif @LizzyM @Goro
Do you guys think it’s possible to get into medical school with lower mcat scores this cycle if they aren’t able to add more MCAT test dates I am retaking a 499(126/122/127/124)

 

[Goro]

@gonnif @LizzyM @Goro
Do you guys think it’s possible to get into medical school with lower mcat scores this cycle if they aren’t able to add more MCAT test dates I am retaking a 499(126/122/127/124)

Nope

 

[GreenDuck12]

@gonnif @LizzyM @Goro
Do you guys think it’s possible to get into medical school with lower mcat scores this cycle if they aren’t able to add more MCAT test dates I am retaking a 499(126/122/127/124)

If you look at the breakdown of accepted applicants by GPA and MCAT you will see there are plenty of high GPA/MCAT folks who do not gain admission but have the “stats” to be admitted in any given year. I highly doubt as @KnightDoc speculates above that medical schools will be forced to accept a “subpar” class due to a smaller applicant pool. Plenty of excellent applicants don’t make the cut for small reasons in any given cycle and even if there are fewer applicants ready to submit this cycle, it will still be a highly competitive process.

My guess is the only reasonable accommodations admissions committees will make is waiting till later in the cycle when final MCAT scores come and possibly offer more more interviews later in the cycle than they otherwise would have. But, be prepared to be grilled. In light of this unprecedented outbreak and strain on the healthcare system, I highly doubt admissions committees will be forgiving of applicants who haven’t done some serious introspection about what it means to be in this profession and on the frontlines of a crisis.

 

[LizzyM]

Nope, standards won't sink lower but those MCAT/GPA grids that show that 64% of the 510-513/3.60-3.79 are admitted might rise to 87%. That would be an additional 1600 applicants admitted from that cell on AAMC Table 23 if the number of applicants with those stats remained stable but we should assume it drops by 30% which would bring us to 4402 applicants admitted from that cell rather than 4670. I don't have the time and the inclination to do the math but I'd love to see that grid reconfigured to assume a 30% drop the number of applicants in each cell and an increase of 15-20% in the proportion admitted from each cell starting in the upper right corner and cascading down until 62,000 have been admitted. (the data is an aggregate over several years)
Anyone home with some time on their hands? (I'm teaching online this term and up to my eyeballs or this would be a fun project.)

 

[KnightDoc]

Let me say here that in my own opinion and personal speculation, that it is very possible that some medical schools, indeed a large fraction of them, may not be able to deal the admissions process this year and may not take applications for a class of 2025. This could in fact lead to the application services not having any admissions process this year.

The issues with MCAT are merely one factor. Colleges are closed, will transcripts be processed? can LORs be requested and written? can the systems that take this information such as AMCAS and AACOMAS, be able to process it? Can staff at medical schools take this in? Can faculty review and meet on these? This isnt simply being able to work from home, but how many people will be able to work? Millions will be sick, millions will be taking care of them. Many physicians who are part of the admissions process will be on the front lines and not able to be at the medical schools. Hospitals are filling up to "disaster" mode which, like a war zone, beds are double in rooms, filling up hallways, taking over Physical Rehab gyms, and even down to the lobbies with more in tents in the parking lots. Dorms at schools are being taken over for use as field hospitals as well as convention centers, arenas and stadiums. And the dead are being literally stacked up in trucks as the morgues are full. Make no mistake about we are at War as Corona has hit us no less than the bombing of Pearl Harbor or the attacks on 9/11. The scene in NYC today will be scenes all over the country for the next several months as this pandemic sweeps the nation. The disruption of our normal daily lives will last for longer than most of us realize

The more I think I think about, the less likely I see an admissions process for a medical school class of 2025

Well, that certainly puts the MCAT issue into perspective. If schools don't figure out a way to deal with this, it could mean up to 20,000 MDs lost forever.

 

[Goro]

Well, that certainly puts the MCAT issue into perspective. If schools don't figure out a way to deal with this, it could mean up to 20,000 MDs lost forever.

Oh, spare me the hyperbole! People who truly want to be doctors will simply wait a year.

 

[KnightDoc]

Oh, spare me the hyperbole! People who truly want to be doctors will simply wait a year.

Yes, of course, but the class that is lost if there is no class of 2025 will never be made up, unless each school increases its number of seats over time to make up for it!! If @gonnif's apocalyptic view comes to pass, from 2025 on there will be 20,000 less American trained MDs in the world, forever, or at least until they would have retired starting around 2065 onward.

 

[TheDataKing]

Please keep it professional, everyone.

 

[LizzyM]

There is some good news in terms of how the AMCAS application system works.
Almost all US schools send transcripts electronically directly to AMCAS.
Letter of recommendation are uploaded directly into AMCAS applications by the letter writer. Most people are using letterhead and an electronic signature that they have on their laptop so not being at the office with stationery, etc is not a barrier.
We all read applications online, at home or whether we need to be (I knew one OB who read them in the middle of the night between deliveries.)

The show can go on provided we can get back to in-person interviews by October or November. If things are crazy next fall, we may need video interviews. That would be very interesting but also a very good precident as it might move us in that direction permanently and greatly reduce the cost of interviews for applicants fortunate enough to have several. Depending on how willing the chief financial officers are to reduce revenue by reducing class size, some schools may reduce their enrollment temporarily rather than take applicants who aren't ready for prime time.

We are living in interesting times.

 

[KnightDoc]

There is some good news in terms of how the AMCAS application system works.
Almost all US schools send transcripts electronically directly to AMCAS.
Letter of recommendation are uploaded directly into AMCAS applications by the letter writer. Most people are using letterhead and an electronic signature that they have on their laptop so not being at the office with stationery, etc is not a barrier.
We all read applications online, at home or whether we need to be (I knew one OB who read them in the middle of the night between deliveries.)

The show can go on provided we can get back to in-person interviews by October or November. If things are crazy next fall, we may need video interviews. That would be very interesting but also a very good precident as it might move us in that direction permanently and greatly reduce the cost of interviews for applicants fortunate enough to have several. Depending on how willing the chief financial officers are to reduce revenue by reducing class size, some schools may reduce their enrollment temporarily rather than take applicants who aren't ready for prime time.

We are living in interesting times.

For what it's worth, I think if schools end up being willing to push back interviews, that will allow for those whose MCAT dates are cancelled to sit for dates that would be added later, and everything will proceed as usual, albeit on a delayed schedule, with no need to reduce class size or compromise on admission standards. This would be the accommodation I was predicting all along, and would be predicated on MCATs not being cancelled past the beginning of June, with dates added from that point to whatever point in August-September is required to fit them in.

 

[LizzyM]

For what it's worth, I think if schools end up being willing to push back interviews, that will allow for those whose MCAT dates are cancelled to sit for dates that would be added later, and everything will proceed as usual, albeit on a delayed schedule, with no need to reduce class size or compromise on admission standards. This would be the accommodation I was predicting all along, and would be predicated on MCATs not being cancelled past the beginning of June, with dates added from that point to whatever point in August-September is required to fit them in.

Pray that we are social distancing until September. Any other alternative will be catastrophic. We need this to roll through communities slowly, not quickly, and it is going to take months, not weeks. Time will tell when we can get back to MCAT testing. Meanwhile, I expect that there are many applicants with test scores at the ready who will apply when the application cycle opens.

 

[longhaul3]

I doubt that there will be a suspension of medical school admissions or that class sizes around the country will take a significant hit. There are so many more qualified applicants than spots that a reduction of the applicant pool by maybe even 50% at every school would still probably result in enough high-quality applicants to fill the classes. One year I did interviews, none of my interviewees were accepted, and I was pretty impressed by them. That's not even considering the huge majority of applicants who don't even get invited to interview.

(I will wait for one of the data gurus to come demonstrate how wrong I am, but intuitively it makes sense to me.)

 

[emergencydancing]

Do we have any adcoms to weigh in that are not from institutions that reduce applicants down to numbers?

 

[KnightDoc]

Do we have any adcoms to weigh in that are not from institutions that reduce applicants down to numbers?

Is there any such thing? Given how many people apply each year, and given how few spots are available, how could there be??

 

[emergencydancing]

Is there any such thing? Given how many people apply each year, and given how few spots are available, how could there be??

I mean, "Holistic Review".

But on a serious note (and I'm assuming here that @LizzyM is part of an adcom and if not, disregard my take), but it seems like the sentiment is "there's this global pandemic that happened, through no fault of your own you've prepared for this moment and now you can't apply. Tough luck, life's not fair, there are plenty of other qualified applicants that we don't need you. It'll make our jobs easier this year. Apply next year." We expect our physicians to be understanding and empathetic, but admissions committee's don't need to be. And yes, 1 year doesn't sound that bad (only if we disregard older nontrads), you have to understand that by delaying a substantial (a third) number of applicants from applying, you're going to make next year and every subsequent year more competitive, and like people mentioned, make this year very uncompetitive.

 

[KnightDoc]

I mean, "Holistic Review".

But on a serious note (and I'm assuming here that @LizzyM is part of an adcom and if not, disregard my take), but it seems like the sentiment is "there's this global pandemic that happened, through no fault of your own you've prepared for this moment and now you can't apply. Tough luck, life's not fair, there are plenty of other qualified applicants that we don't need you. It'll make our jobs easier this year. Apply next year." We expect our physicians to be understanding and empathetic, but admissions committee's don't need to be. And yes, 1 year doesn't sound that bad (only if we disregard older nontrads), you have to understand that by delaying a substantial (a third) number of applicants from applying, you're going to make next year and every subsequent year more competitive, and like people mentioned, make this year very uncompetitive.

That was my take as well, and, although I am just a lowly premed, I am not nearly as sanguine as @LizzyM about the depth of the applicant pool, so I do not think the schools will tolerate a 30% drop in applications and will take steps to mitigate. The adcoms apparently extrapolate from the fact that there is presently a large surplus of highly qualified applicants. I think they underestimate how much that surplus will vanish if the pool dramatically drops, and how intense the competition will be at all tiers of medical school for the remaining highly qualified applicants in a world where the pool drops from 50,000 to 35,000 overnight. In such an environment, I am less sure than they are that there will be 20,000 applicants that they collectively would have been thrilled to admit in any prior cycle.

If you've been paying attention, however, you'd see that all of the adcoms make pretty clear that we are just the inputs into their doctor manufacturing machine, and we are entitled to nothing. I don't blame the adcoms who post, however, for sharing the unvarnished truth with us. In fact, I greatly appreciate their taking the time to give us the insider view into the process and generally trying to be helpful to us when they are under absolutely no obligation to do so, even to the point of indulging me when I have the temerity to respectfully disagree with them.

 

[longhaul3]

I mean, "Holistic Review".

But on a serious note (and I'm assuming here that @LizzyM is part of an adcom and if not, disregard my take), but it seems like the sentiment is "there's this global pandemic that happened, through no fault of your own you've prepared for this moment and now you can't apply. Tough luck, life's not fair, there are plenty of other qualified applicants that we don't need you. It'll make our jobs easier this year. Apply next year." We expect our physicians to be understanding and empathetic, but admissions committee's don't need to be. And yes, 1 year doesn't sound that bad (only if we disregard older nontrads), you have to understand that by delaying a substantial (a third) number of applicants from applying, you're going to make next year and every subsequent year more competitive, and like people mentioned, make this year very uncompetitive.

Nobody on any admissions committee views applicants with such hostility and flippancy. People who interview and participate on the admissions committee are volunteers and aren't implicitly looking for their jobs to be made easier.

What would be your proposed solution or offer to aggrieved applicants? Would it be understanding and empathetic to cancel an entire admissions year and have no class of interns nationwide 4 years from now? The cost of canceling an admissions cycle is far too great and far outweighs the impact (waiting one year at worst) proceeding as usual would have on any individual applicant, or indeed on the applicant pool in toto.

This is an act-of-god type situation. Almost every decision is a lose-lose proposition. Applicants can't expect mammoth institutions, and by extension the entire UME and GME system, to pull the emergency brake because they haven't yet taken the MCAT or had enough volunteer hours restocking gloves in the emergency room. Maybe this post will age like milk in 2 months when the whole admissions cycle is called off, but it doesn't make sense to me at this point.

 

[KnightDoc]

Nobody on any admissions committee views applicants with such hostility and flippancy. People who interview and participate on the admissions committee are volunteers and aren't implicitly looking for their jobs to be made easier.

What would be your proposed solution or offer to aggrieved applicants? Would it be understanding and empathetic to cancel an entire admissions year and have no class of interns nationwide 4 years from now? The cost of canceling an admissions cycle is far too great and far outweighs the impact (waiting one year at worst) proceeding as usual would have on any individual applicant, or indeed on the applicant pool in toto.

This is an act-of-god type situation. Almost every decision is a lose-lose proposition. Applicants can't expect mammoth institutions, and by extension the entire UME and GME system, to pull the emergency brake because they haven't yet taken the MCAT or had enough volunteer hours restocking gloves in the emergency room. Maybe this post will age like milk in 2 months when the whole admissions cycle is called off, but it doesn't make sense to me at this point.

Agreed! So far, only @gonnif has speculated that there might not be a class of 2025, and nobody wants that to happen, since it would benefit no one. Others have wished that the MCAT requirement would be waived, but nobody in a position to know has given any indication that this would even be considered, so that seems highly unlikely as well. I also don't think anyone seriously thinks losing a few hours restocking gloves is going to be fatal to an otherwise decent application.

This leaves two less than ideal options. The first is for lost MCAT dates to not be rescheduled in time for an applicant to apply next cycle, possibly reducing the applicant pool by maybe 30%, which might or might not cause schools to accept applicants they never would have considered in prior cycles, depending on what the remaining pool looks like, and then causing the 2021-22 cycle to be absolutely brutal due to the inevitably swelled ranks of that pool. This would also continue for a few years thereafter, as the increased number of unsuccessful applicants subsequently become reapplicants.

The second would be for the back end of the cycle to be extended to accommodate late test takers who take the test on dates to be added once it is safe to do so. This would cause great inconvenience to the schools, as they would be interviewing later in the cycle, causing decisions to be delayed and then bumping up against next year's decision deadlines. Another possibility might be to extend IIs with MCAT scores to follow, at the risk that schools will spend time interviewing people they will later not want based on sub par MCAT scores.

None of the alternatives are ideal, although all of them really are not lose-lose. Any alternative that allows someone who was planning to apply next cycle to do so is a win for the applicants, which in turn becomes a win for the schools. @emergencydancing is not wrong insofar as the schools will choose the option that is best for them, rather than what is best for applicants. I am optimistic, however, that the schools' self interest will dictate that they make the accommodation to increase the pool, to increase the quality of their class, rather than select from a significantly reduced pool because it is easier, which will not only cause maybe 15,000 people to lose a year (although some would lose it anyway), but then be subjected to abnormally tough competition for years to come (which I guess the schools wouldn't mind so much!).

We'll see soon enough how this is going to play out!!!

Edit: The following is posted on the AAMC website as of today. It certianly looks like appropriate accommodation will be made to allow people to apply next cycle as planned:

The AAMC and Pearson VUE will provide additional testing opportunities, and we will keep you updated on the availability of new exam dates. Check back here for more information.

Medical schools are aware of changes to the MCAT administration dates, and the AAMC is working with the schools as they begin to prepare for later test score availability for the upcoming application cycle. Please go to MSAR for school specific policies and deadlines.

 

[Microbe_Hunter]

It's wholly unfair this year's admissions cycle, if it happens, may be less competitive and next year may be more competitive
It's wholly unfair that my favorite waitress at my dinner, along with millions of others have now lost their jobs
It's wholly unfair the guy in a warehouse is now overworked in close quarters and complains about lack of PPE, gets fired
It's wholly unfair to the police, fire, EMS workers who are risking exposure with every call, with hundreds sick
It's wholly unfair to ask, to beg, to plead doctors and nurses, from anywhere in the country, retired or not to come to NY to help
It's wholly unfair to expect doctors and nurses to work without enough PPE, ventilators, ICU beds, any beds.
It's wholly unfair to expect the spouses, the children, the families of all the first responders and medical staff that might be exposed because their loved ones are doing their jobs
It's wholly unfair to the likely tens of millions who will get sick from this
It's wholly unfair to the likely many millions that will be sick enough to be in the hospital to be happy to pay for it
It's wholly unfair to the likely million who will be in ICU to wonder if their next breath will be their last
It's wholly unfair to the hundreds of thousand who will die alone as visiting is banned
It's wholly unfair to those who will be buried alone as funerals are now banned
life is unfair, especially in wartime

We all know life is unfair. That does not mean we, as individuals and as institutions, should not try to make things as fair as we possibly can.

 

[NYwhiteGirl]

life is unfair, especially in wartime

I wonder when the last time something like this happened, black death?

 

[tantacles]

There is some good news in terms of how the AMCAS application system works.
Almost all US schools send transcripts electronically directly to AMCAS.
Letter of recommendation are uploaded directly into AMCAS applications by the letter writer. Most people are using letterhead and an electronic signature that they have on their laptop so not being at the office with stationery, etc is not a barrier.
We all read applications online, at home or whether we need to be (I knew one OB who read them in the middle of the night between deliveries.)

The show can go on provided we can get back to in-person interviews by October or November. If things are crazy next fall, we may need video interviews. That would be very interesting but also a very good precident as it might move us in that direction permanently and greatly reduce the cost of interviews for applicants fortunate enough to have several. Depending on how willing the chief financial officers are to reduce revenue by reducing class size, some schools may reduce their enrollment temporarily rather than take applicants who aren't ready for prime time.

We are living in interesting times.

I was thinking largely the same thing. A move to video interviews exclusively, assuming this system works, would be a huge boon to ecomonically disadvantaged applicants, provided they have access to the technology required to participate. That being said, my application cycle cost probably $1500-$2000 in just flights, so that would be about equal to the cost of a new computer should an applicant need to purchase one, I would love to see this change.

 

[NYwhiteGirl]

I was thinking largely the same thing. A move to video interviews exclusively, assuming this system works, would be a huge boon to ecomonically disadvantaged applicants, provided they have access to the technology required to participate. That being said, my application cycle cost probably $1500-$2000 in just flights, so that would be about equal to the cost of a new computer should an applicant need to purchase one, I would love to see this change.

There's also rentals applicants have to consider as well to emphasize your point

 

[tantacles]

There's also rentals applicants have to consider as well to emphasize your point

Absolutely. The cost is exorbitant, particularly for those receiving multiple interviews. And let's be honest: You go on every interview you get until you have an acceptance, right? Definitely adds up.

 

[KnightDoc]

I wonder when the last time something like this happened, black death?

1918 - Spanish Flu

 

[MyOdyssey]

I doubt that there will be a suspension of medical school admissions or that class sizes around the country will take a significant hit. There are so many more qualified applicants than spots that a reduction of the applicant pool by maybe even 50% at every school would still probably result in enough high-quality applicants to fill the classes. One year I did interviews, none of my interviewees were accepted, and I was pretty impressed by them. That's not even considering the huge majority of applicants who don't even get invited to interview.

(I will wait for one of the data gurus to come demonstrate how wrong I am, but intuitively it makes sense to me.)

Out of curiosity, how many interviews did you do that year? And were those interviews you conducted open file or closed?

 

[emergencydancing]

Nobody on any admissions committee views applicants with such hostility and flippancy. People who interview and participate on the admissions committee are volunteers and aren't implicitly looking for their jobs to be made easier.

I prefaced it with "if @LizzyM is on the adcom" because this is a paraphrase of what she expressed.

What would be your proposed solution or offer to aggrieved applicants? Would it be understanding and empathetic to cancel an entire admissions year and have no class of interns nationwide 4 years from now? The cost of canceling an admissions cycle is far too great and far outweighs the impact (waiting one year at worst) proceeding as usual would have on any individual applicant, or indeed on the applicant pool in toto.

This is an act-of-god type situation. Almost every decision is a lose-lose proposition. Applicants can't expect mammoth institutions, and by extension the entire UME and GME system, to pull the emergency brake because they haven't yet taken the MCAT or had enough volunteer hours restocking gloves in the emergency room. Maybe this post will age like milk in 2 months when the whole admissions cycle is called off, but it doesn't make sense to me at this point.

Nope, I did not suggest cancelling an entire admissions cycle, you must be mistaking my post for @gonnif's. This, if it is genuine and actually implemented, is more understanding and compassionate Admissions: MD Program | UCSF Medical Education

Delayed MCAT – UCSF will accept applications from individuals who were unable to take the MCAT due to COVID-related test cancellations. For these candidates, we will base secondary application decisions on the information that is available to us at the time of the application. Assuming that MCAT testing resumes prior to October, we will require applicants to have taken the MCAT before we make admissions decisions for the Class of 2025. If MCAT testing does not resume by October, we will reconsider the requirement. In any case, applicants should not delay applying simply because an MCAT score is not yet available.

Please refrain from conjecture.

 

[emergencydancing]

We all know life is unfair. That does not mean we, as individuals and as institutions, should not try to make things as fair as we possibly can.

Excellently put. Yes, and what makes me most disappointed is the lack of understanding and the dismissal of applicants. Reddit and Ryan Gray tend to criticize SDN for being so harsh and condescending and I never understood it because I hang out in the Non-traditional forum, where most of the . But I see where they are coming from now. Why do you come to "help" premeds if you have such a condescending view of them? I know the adcoms enshroud their institution's affiliation here and I understand the reason. But I would love to know which schools view applicants like this.

 

[emergencydancing]

It's wholly unfair this year's admissions cycle, if it happens, may be less competitive and next year may be more competitive
It's wholly unfair that my favorite waitress at my dinner, along with millions of others have now lost their jobs
It's wholly unfair the guy in a warehouse is now overworked in close quarters and complains about lack of PPE, gets fired
It's wholly unfair to the police, fire, EMS workers who are risking exposure with every call, with hundreds sick
It's wholly unfair to ask, to beg, to plead doctors and nurses, from anywhere in the country, retired or not to come to NY to help
It's wholly unfair to expect doctors and nurses to work without enough PPE, ventilators, ICU beds, any beds.
It's wholly unfair to expect the spouses, the children, the families of all the first responders and medical staff that might be exposed because their loved ones are doing their jobs
It's wholly unfair to the likely tens of millions who will get sick from this
It's wholly unfair to the likely many millions that will be sick enough to be in the hospital to be happy to pay for it
It's wholly unfair to the likely million who will be in ICU to wonder if their next breath will be their last
It's wholly unfair to the hundreds of thousand who will die alone as visiting is banned
It's wholly unfair to those who will be buried alone as funerals are now banned
life is unfair, especially in wartime

Yeah so we should just not do social distancing to help others right? Let's just not care about them at all. We know they've put in sacrifices and I'd like to think people want to help those that are affected the most if they can.

 

[wysdoc]

Texas schools will process and read your applications according to the usual timeline. They will not, however, invite anyone for an interview without seeing an MCAT score. It was perfectly timely and reasonable for TX applicants to plan their MCAT for March and April of their junior year. Cancellation of those dates puts them in a pinch. I think in Texas the interview season will be skewed towards the winter months instead of August/September/October. Playing the hand they are dealt without whining will be how our applicants show persistence and resilience this year.

 

[emergencydancing]

Texas schools will process and read your applications according to the usual timeline. They will not, however, invite anyone for an interview without seeing an MCAT score. It was perfectly timely and reasonable for TX applicants to plan their MCAT for March and April of their junior year. Cancellation of those dates puts them in a pinch. I think in Texas the interview season will be skewed towards the winter months instead of August/September/October. Playing the hand they are dealt without whining will be how our applicants show persistence and resilience this year.

Of junior year, you mean for traditional applicants? What did you mean by junior year? In any case, March and April have 5 dates. 3/14, 3/27, 4/4, 4/24, 4/25. With the recently announced cancellation of the last 2, that means 4 dates were cancelled. So only 1/5 dates were possible if you were "timely and reasonable". Never mind that an early test date includes March-June. Sure, taking another year is not a problem if you're a junior. We're not all young traditional students.

BTW, I'm happy to take the MCAT late and have a late application, I'm not asking for the MCAT to be optional.

 

[KnightDoc]

Of junior year, you mean for traditional applicants? What did you mean by junior year? In any case, March and April have 5 dates. 3/14, 3/27, 4/4, 4/24, 4/25. With the recently announced cancellation of the last 2, that means 4 dates were cancelled. So only 1/5 dates were possible if you were "timely and reasonable". Never mind that an early test date includes March-June. Sure, taking another year is not a problem if you're a junior. We're not all young traditional students.

BTW, I'm happy to take the MCAT late and have a late application, I'm not asking for the MCAT to be optional.

I honestly think you are going to be fine. It really looks like AAMC is going to add dates when it can, and most schools will accept them for the current cycle. I would bet that what UCSF is doing will be a trend, and I'm cautiously optimistic that testing will resume sometime between June and August, and missed dates will be made up, as necessary, between whenever they resume and the end of the test year in September.

UCSF is one of the very best schools in the country. Their statement signals that they will not prevent you from applying if you cannot take the test due to this pandemic. I think it's safe to assume many schools will follow their lead. They are not going to cancel their class of 2025. They are not going to allow their applicant pool to be reduced by 30%. Many other schools will do the same!

 

[emergencydancing]

I honestly think you are going to be fine. It really looks like AAMC is going to add dates when it can, and most schools will accept them for the current cycle. I would bet that what UCSF is doing will be a trend, and I'm cautiously optimistic that testing will resume sometime between June and August, and missed dates will be made up, as necessary, between whenever they resume and the end of the test year in September.

UCSF is one of the very best schools in the country. Their statement signals that they will not prevent you from applying if you cannot take the test due to this pandemic. I think it's safe to assume many schools will follow their lead. They are not going to cancel their class of 2025. They are not going to allow their applicant pool to be reduced by 30%. Many other schools will do the same!

Yeah all I'm asking is for the understanding that UCSF is putting out. I understand it's a tough time for schools too. My main concern is what happens if this thing goes on for the rest of the year? It seems like the adcoms from the schools above just don't care.

My MCAT was cancelled for 4/4. That's fine. I get that. I'm all for social distancing. I signed up for June and even though I have other commitments now that'll take time from studying, I'll still take it and do my best. Happy to reschedule to even the last test date, and hoping that schools will be generous enough to review my application for secondaries without an MCAT. But this thing is looking like it'll go on for a while, potentially to the end of the MCAT season.

The language here seems to lack the understanding that schools like UCSF has. I'm hoping schools will follow suit, but I'd love to know which schools are doing that just because they have to present that language but deep down express the attitude of dismissal of candidates. I don't think all schools are like that, but it seems like some are.

 

[KnightDoc]

NY cancelled May exams also, and I wouldn't be surprised if other places do too considering when the virus is expected to peak. That's another 5 exams. June 5th seems gray area too.

I don't think a summer exam / "late" app will mean the same thing "late" meant in previous years. I know people are quick to expect everyone to take gap years on top of gap years without hesitation, but after several gaps and having your application ready in every other way + the financial burden, applicants have a right to be concerned and to voice that concern. However, a lot of people are in this situation, and there will be a wave of applicants who had to test later on. My undergrad's prehealth committee shared from our ug MD school's adcoms (not at all related to UCSF) that they are fully intending to accommodate students affected by this but are waiting until there's more clarity on the extent of the situation. My PI also was on admissions til '18 and said he thinks it's impossible for this to not be accommodated. At the end of the day, it's a completely unprecedented and developing situation, and no one's statement is a be-all end-all.

It's gonna be okay, it's a hard time, but not hopeless. I'd stay off here for a while and look elsewhere for compassion, then come back for application advice and whatnot.

I've been predicting this from the beginning, based on what I thought was the schools' own self interest. The UCSF statement is the first indication that I might have been correct.

Time will tell, but, yes, it does not look like the class of 2025 will be cancelled, and it also doesn't look like all of the people impacted by cancelled test dates will be precluded from applying next year because, in the words of more than one adcom, it's a sellers' market and they don't need us. It turns out the process won't work as the schools want it to if they don't have around 50,000 people competing for the 20,000 spots, so they will collectively take the necessary steps to allow us to apply!!

 

[emergencydancing]

NY cancelled May exams also, and I wouldn't be surprised if other places do too considering when the virus is expected to peak. That's another 5 exams. June 5th seems gray area too.

I don't think a summer exam / "late" app will mean the same thing "late" meant in previous years. I know people are quick to expect everyone to take gap years on top of gap years without hesitation, but after several gaps and having your application ready in every other way + the financial burden, applicants have a right to be concerned and to voice that concern. However, a lot of people are in this situation, and there will be a wave of applicants who had to test later on. My undergrad's prehealth committee shared from our ug MD school's adcoms (not at all related to UCSF) that they are fully intending to accommodate students affected by this but are waiting until there's more clarity on the extent of the situation. My PI also was on admissions til '18 and said he thinks it's impossible for this to not be accommodated. At the end of the day, it's a completely unprecedented and developing situation, and no one's statement is a be-all end-all.

It's gonna be okay, it's a hard time, but not hopeless. I'd stay off here for a while and look elsewhere for compassion, then come back for application advice and whatnot.

Yeah that's probably a good idea to step away from SDN. I see why people say it's toxic now. I left my job to focus full time for the MCAT and now don't have one, so I have to fill the time. I thought adcoms are just humans as well trying to get through uncertain times and having best intentions. I thought they would try to accommodate like you speculated, but the sentiment expressed here is just so condescending. "Apply next year" "A lower applicant pool, though less competitive, will make our jobs easier" "You should've scheduled for an even earlier test date than what was already considered early even though you could not have foreseen these cancellations"

Listen, I know at the end of the day, there are more pressing things. But please take a second to understand that applicants have poured a lot into this, and one more year is not that easy if you're on the other side of 30 and have other commitments.

 

[wysdoc]

Of junior year, you mean for traditional applicants? What did you mean by junior year? In any case, March and April have 5 dates. 3/14, 3/27, 4/4, 4/24, 4/25. With the recently announced cancellation of the last 2, that means 4 dates were cancelled. So only 1/5 dates were possible if you were "timely and reasonable". Never mind that an early test date includes March-June. Sure, taking another year is not a problem if you're a junior. We're not all young traditional students.

BTW, I'm happy to take the MCAT late and have a late application, I'm not asking for the MCAT to be optional.

I mean juniors who plan to apply 2020/2021 cycle and will be completing their senior year in 2020-2021. There are more dates in May, June, July.

 

[emergencydancing]

I've been predicting this from the beginning, based on what I thought was the schools' own self interest. The UCSF statement is the first indication that I might have been correct.

Time will tell, but, yes, it does not look like the class of 2025 will be cancelled, and it also doesn't look like all of the people impacted by cancelled test dates will be precluded from applying next year because, in the words of more than one adcom, it's a sellers' market and they don't need us. It turns out the process won't work as the schools want it to if they don't have around 50,000 people competing for the 20,000 spots, so they will collectively take the necessary steps to allow us to apply!!

I actually think UCSF is genuine because to me they have always been reasonable and understanding. However, from the posts on here and from this I would not expect all schools to be like that. It's actually depressing to see how little some adcoms think of applicants.

 

[KnightDoc]

Yeah that's probably a good idea to step away from SDN. I see why people say it's toxic now. I left my job to focus full time for the MCAT and now don't have one, so I have to fill the time. I thought adcoms are just humans as well trying to get through uncertain times and having best intentions. I thought they would try to accommodate like you speculated, but the sentiment expressed here is just so condescending. "Apply next year" "A lower applicant pool, though less competitive, will make our jobs easier" "You should've scheduled for an even earlier test date than what was already considered early even though you could not have foreseen these cancellations"

Listen, I know at the end of the day, there are more pressing things. But please take a second to understand that applicants have poured a lot into this, and one more year is not that easy if you're on the other side of 30 and have other commitments.

At the risk of being attacked, I want to stick up for the adcoms. In general, they know way more than we do, so their contributions are invaluable. The hard truth that they share from behind the curtain about where schools' priorities lie is valuable insight that we otherwise wouldn't be privy to.

If they got this one wrong because their views are sometimes a little insular, so what? First of all, we still don't know they were wrong, and even if they were, it bears remembering that they don't get paid to participate here and they do so because they genuinely want to help us.