Effect of COVID-19 on current applicants?

[emergencydancing]

I mean juniors who plan to apply 2020/2021 cycle and will be completing their senior year in 2020-2021. There are more dates in May, June, July.

Yes, you mean traditional students? I'm not sure how that applies to this situation, since this is a general problem. I'm a non traditional applicant who just finished a postbac, maybe Texas doesn't get many of those?

Maybe we have a misunderstanding. I'm happy to apply late, that's not what the concern. My concern is that all MCAT tests will be cancelled this year which other 'adcoms' here seem to dismiss as 'tough luck'.

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[emergencydancing]

At the risk of being attacked, I want to stick up for the adcoms. In general, they know way more than we do, so their contributions are invaluable. The hard truth that they share from behind the curtain about where schools' priorities lie is valuable insight that we otherwise wouldn't be privy to.

If they got this one wrong because their views are sometimes a little insular, so what? First of all, we still don't know they were wrong, and even if they were, it bears remembering that they don't get paid to participate here and they do so because they genuinely want to help us.

So from the tone here and the sentiment expressed by UCSF, not all admissions committees and members in them think alike. I know that there are very understanding ones out there, it's depressing to see that SDN is so filled with ones that seem to treat applicants with such disregard.

Just because a person is honest and transparent doesn't mean that their actions should not be admonished.

 

[KnightDoc]

I actually think UCSF is genuine because to me they have always been reasonable and understanding. However, from the posts on here and from this I would not expect all schools to be like that. It's actually depressing to see how little some adcoms think of applicants.

Again, it's really not that they think so little of us -- it's just that they are being honest in telling us that med schools are at the end of the day a business. The business is creating MDs. I fully understand where the adcoms get the attitude from, that with an overall 40% accept rate they don't need all of us. And that's true, to a point.

My argument from the beginning was that if 10 dates were cancelled, it would be so disruptive that they would be forced to make an accommodation. It looks like I might end up being right, but make no mistake, even for UCSF, they are not making accommodations to do us any favors. They are doing so because it is in their best interest. In any case, as long as you are able to apply as scheduled, it's all good.

 

[KnightDoc]

So from the tone here and the sentiment expressed by UCSF, not all admissions committees and members in them think alike. I know that there are very understanding ones out there, it's depressing to see that SDN is so filled with ones that seem to treat applicants with such disregard.

Just because a person is honest and transparent doesn't mean that their actions should not be admonished.

They're just being honest. I guarantee you that there are people at UCSF that feel exactly the same way. UCSF isn't doing anything because its administration is nicer than the other schools. They are doing it because they don't want to select the class of 2025 from a pool that is 2/3 the normal size, and then have to compete with peer institutions for the relatively few people at the top, which would then cause them to dip lower than normal into a smaller pool to fill their class. I also guarantee you that the statements from the schools you are referring to will look just like the one from UCSF when they are released.

 

[emergencydancing]

Again, it's really not that they think so little of us -- it's just that they are being honest in telling us that med schools are at the end of the day a business. The business is creating MDs. I fully understand where the adcoms get the attitude from, that with an overall 40% accept rate they don't need all of us. And that's true, to a point.

My argument from the beginning was that if 10 dates were cancelled, it would be so disruptive that they would be forced to make an accommodation. It looks like I might end up being right, but make no mistake, even for UCSF, they are not making accommodations to do us any favors. They are doing so because it is in their best interest. In any case, as long as you are able to apply as scheduled, it's all good.

Ryan Gray of the Premed Years said that for Hurricane Katrina, schools pushed back their app deadlines to accommodate those affected. I can't find a source to confirm, but if so I'm assuming they did not do it because they had to for their applicant pool. I would also like to think that adcoms are understanding and compassionate of circumstances, but that might be my naivete.

 

[KnightDoc]

Ryan Gray of the Premed Years said that for Hurricane Katrina, schools pushed back their app deadlines to accommodate those affected. I can't find a source to confirm, but if so I'm assuming they did not do it because they had to for their applicant pool. I would also like to think that adcoms are understanding and compassionate of circumstances, but that might be my naivete.

I don't know anything about that, but how many people were affected, how disruptive was that to their process that year, how many schools actually did that, how far were deadlines pushed back, and how many people ultimately benefited? This is different because it affects maybe 30% of the pool.

Still, I feel pretty confident it's going to work out exactly the way you want it to. And yes, it's probably a little naive to think that any business, from the cable company to the fast food restaurant to the medical school cares about you in any way beyond how you can help them fulfill their mission (wiring the most homes, selling the most burgers, producing the best doctors, etc.).

In this case, pushing 1/3 of the pool into the next cycle is not going to help them produce the best doctors in 2025, so they will accept some inconvenience to their process and make an accommodation, not because they like you, or even because they think it's the right, compassionate thing to do, but because it will be in their best interest to help them fulfill their mission.

 

[emergencydancing]

Still, I feel pretty confident it's going to work out exactly the way you want it to. And yes, it's probably a little naive to think that any business, from the cable company to the fast food restaurant to the medical school cares about you in any way beyond how you can help them fulfill their mission.

Well, that all depends on how long Corona lasts.

Yeah you'd think that some medical schools, after emphasizing compassion and empathy in their applicants, would not have some of that rub off on them. I've had corporate companies I've worked for treat me well even after I left.

 

[KnightDoc]

Well, that all depends on how long Corona lasts.

Yeah you'd think that some medical schools, after emphasizing compassion and empathy in their applicants, would not have some of that rub off on them. I've had corporate companies I've worked for treat me well even after I left.

Welcome to med school admissions! Do as we say, not as we do!!

 

[wysdoc]

Yes, you mean traditional students? I'm not sure how that applies to this situation, since this is a general problem. I'm a non traditional applicant who just finished a postbac, maybe Texas doesn't get many of those?

Maybe we have a misunderstanding. I'm happy to apply late, that's not what the concern. My concern is that all MCAT tests will be cancelled this year which other 'adcoms' here seem to dismiss as 'tough luck'.

I understand, and I mostly follow Texas schools whose app cycle runs about a month earlier than AMCAS.
Students who planned to get their applications done in June and have that March or April MCAT score ready to go did nothing wrong and are understandably frustrated. But since it's beyond their control right now the only thing to do is try to do well on the things that ARE available, mostly school. Lots of in-person volunteering gigs are on hold now too.

 

[emergencydancing]

I understand, and I mostly follow Texas schools whose app cycle runs about a month earlier than AMCAS.
Students who planned to get their applications done in June and have that March or April MCAT score ready to go did nothing wrong and are understandably frustrated. But since it's beyond their control right now the only thing to do is try to do well on the things that ARE available, mostly school. Lots of in-person volunteering gigs are on hold now too.

So I'm not sure what you mean by students who have their March or April MCAT scores ready to go, because that's 20% of March or April test takers as 80% of those test dates were cancelled. Still, I understand your point, and I don't think the cycle should be pushed. I also understand that medical schools need time to review the applications, so pushing might pose a crunch. I was just hoping that schools would not make students who would've been ready, delay their application a year because of a missing MCAT--something other adcoms here seem to not care.

Edit: Ahh I understand what you're saying. Yes, I think everyone in that situation is handling it differently, but a very valid way to respond is waiting for medical schools to respond. And I've just been disappointed in the response I've seen (UCSF notwithstanding). We ask applicants to be resilient and I get that. But the way schools react to this is very telling as well.

 

[emergencydancing]

gonnif just gave his speculation regarding the situation, which he stated was the worse case scenario. I don't think anyone wholeheartedly believes the Class of '25 is gonna be cancelled.

If you read my posts, I never quoted @gonnif or took their speculation seriously. It's ridiculous. I was paraphrasing other sentiments, and there's a whole forum thread where you can see.

 

[LizzyM]

I am old enought to remember the 2001-2002 cycle. Oy! That was a cycle.

First we had AMCAS going to an online application and the entire system crashing repeatedly to the point where applicants were told to print their AMCAS application and mail it in.

Then we had 9/11 and all the flights in the US grounded for a number of days just when the last of the applicants were mailing printed applications due to the AMCAS fiasco, and LORs were being mailed to schools, and schools were mailing secondaries and receiving secondaries by overnight mail and courier. When flights resumed there were very few and "overnight" was no longer guaranteed.

Then the mail itself was suspect because of the spread of anthrax through the mail and it became a challege to even buy a postage stamp or get package delivery.

Yes, there were difficulties and perhaps some people didn't apply or didn't get admitted that year due to no fault of their own but because of extraordinary circumstances. Sometimes life is unfair and you need to show that you are resiliant and can deal with disappointments and uncertainty and difficulties outside of your control.

Stay safe; this too shall pass.

 

[LizzyM]

I just think( and this my own speculation) we will have so many millions of people sick and out of work, so many millions at home trying to take care of them, so many offices barely functioning remotely, especially colleges, that the "system" will simply not have enough people to make the process from end to end work. Unlike the 9/11 shock, the flight grounded, the anthrax scare that stopped mail, this is a war on the home front and will have many killed in action (doctors, nurses, first responders), civilian deaths, and millions "wounded" from the battle and millions "displaced" from employment, and the rest of us hunkered down like those in any war zone. And I think that these hard restrictions will be in place for another 2-4 months with lesser restrictions to follow.

If any of the pandemics of the 20th century indicate with a novel virus, I truly fear we will have a bad first season, a devastating second year and tapering off third year. Until we have: 1) a fast, wide-spread clinical test that tells us who the virus NOW; 2) a fast, wide-spread antibody test to tell us who have EVER been exposed and then is (hopefully) less likely to get it; and 3) an effective, wide-spread vaccination program, this will be a major part of our daily lives for the next 6-24 months.

In World War II, they rationed sugar, cigarettes and nylons. This time it will be toilet paper, hand sanitizer, and when you can go to the store.

True. Harvey Fineberg (former dean of public health and former provost at Harvard) has an interesting paper in New England Journal of Medicine today on what we need to do to "crush the curve". I am not hopeful that it can be done but he has ideas that very much reflect what you've laid out here plus a few other ideas aimed at bringing back the economy.

 

[Goro]

I mean, "Holistic Review".
But on a serious note (and I'm assuming here that @LizzyM is part of an adcom and if not, disregard my take), but it seems like the sentiment is "there's this global pandemic that happened, through no fault of your own you've prepared for this moment and now you can't apply. Tough luck, life's not fair, there are plenty of other qualified applicants that we don't need you. It'll make our jobs easier this year. Apply next year." We expect our physicians to be understanding and empathetic, but admissions committee's don't need to be. And yes, 1 year doesn't sound that bad (only if we disregard older nontrads), you have to understand that by delaying a substantial (a third) number of applicants from applying, you're going to make next year and every subsequent year more competitive, and like people mentioned, make this year very uncompetitive.

The harsh truth is this process is about what med schools want, not what you want.

EDIT: it's also not that we're flippant or callous, but that we Adcoms commenting here find the sense of entitlement expressed by some SDNers here distasteful.

I wonder when the last time something like this happened, black death?

I suggest that if you're interested in a career in medicine, that you know something about the history of Medicine.
Read this:

Spanish flu - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Watch this

Influenza 1918 | American Experience | PBS

It was the worst epidemic in American history, killing over 600,000 — until it disappeared as mysteriously as it had begun.

www.pbs.org

 

[Goro]

True. Harvey Fineberg (former dean of public health and former provost at Harvard) has an interesting paper in New England Journal of Medicine today on what we need to do to "crush the curve". I am not hopeful that it can be done but he has ideas that very much reflect what you've laid out here plus a few other ideas aimed at bringing back the economy.

Just read that. Very interesting and meshes with gonnif's comparisons to wartime. I'm not sanguine about #1 on the list ever happening, alas. But the Arsenal of Democracy is starting to swing into motion. Slowly, just like it did after Pearl Harbor. My ID colleague thinks a good fast ELISA kit will be ready in six months, knowledge of whether any decent anti-viral will work in six months, and some sort of vaccine by end of year. We should know around now if the first experimental vaccine recipients are making antibodies and probably another month before we know if they're effective.

 

[emergencydancing]

The harsh truth is this process is about what med schools want, not what you want.

EDIT: it's also not that we're flippant or callous, but that we Adcoms commenting here find the sense of entitlement expressed by some SDNers here distasteful.

I've let you know where you're callous. Let me know where we're entitled?

 

[mmchick]

I've let you know where you're callous. Let me know where we're entitled?

Pretty much this whole thread embodies entitlement. Applicants incessantly wondering what will happen to their cycle (amidst a global chaos where thousands of people are dying every day), unwavering belief that there will be some form of leniency for those didn't take their MCAT in time or full denial that a class may be pushed off in the face of a still ongoing pandemic...

 

[emergencydancing]

Pretty much this whole thread embodies entitlement. Applicants incessantly wondering what will happen to their cycle (amidst a global chaos where thousands of people are dying every day), unwavering belief that there will be some form of leniency for those didn't take their MCAT in time or full denial that a class may be pushed off in the face of a still ongoing pandemic...

This is a fallacy of relative privation. Just because we are concerned about one thing doesn't mean we think it's more important than other people's problems, and to bring this up has a holier than thou vibe. I know there are much worse things in the world right now.

Imagine the worst thing that happens to you in a day, and you complain this to your loved ones. Maybe someone cut you off or a professor scolded you. How would you feel if they called you entitled because there are kids starving in Africa.

Please remember that just because something is currently of big concern to someone, doesn't mean that they trivialize what others are going through, but it doesn't mean you should trivialize what they're going through. Everyone has made different sacrifices and had different life experiences. To assume that someone's situation might be what you went through (even though you haven't) might be of a place of privilege in itself. You've never applied to medical school during a pandemic of uncertainty. I can only assume (by likelihood) that you are not over 30 and each year has different commitments, so just because you just made it into medical school don't assume we're in the same shoes.

Also, a whole class being pushed off...let's not get dramatic. I think schools will show leniency for MCAT grades before they do this.

 

[Tennisgirl92]

The idea that fellow applicants are suggesting medical schools either wait for their MCAT or waive the requirement is just ridiculous to me. The idea that fellow pre-meds are worried about competitiveness of cycles during a global catastrophe is selfish. Maybe it's because I am older and have gone through my own inequities that I say this. I had to push my application out 4 years-one because my father died, the other because Hurricane Florence not only cancelled my MCAT but destroyed my home. I still had to compete with this-and wait until my late twenties to apply. And I might have wait again to next cycle because of corona. There are always unfair circumstances-life is unfair. Your pre-med journey is not always a straight, perfect path. Right now, this is not about us. Wanting to be physicians, especially, we should learn to put ourselves at the back burner. This is out of our control-and affecting so many worse things than medical school applications. Nobody knows the full implications of this. The challenge we have-and will always have-is to do the very best we can during tragic situations. Learn from this and grow up. We need to think bigger and be flexible. The worst thing we can do is lower the standards for ourselves-no the opposite, we have to rise up.

 

[mmchick]

This is a fallacy of relative privation.

Except it's not because COVID-19 is affecting everyone right now and not just starving children in Africa. Yes there more important things for everyone to worry about/help with than the status of a process happening in a very uncertain future.

 

[emergencydancing]

Except it's not because COVID-19 is affecting everyone right now and not just starving children in Africa. Yes there more important things for everyone to worry about/help with than the status of a process happening in a very uncertain future.

Just because it affects everyone doesn't mean it affects everyone in the same way. That's why the "relative" is there.

 

[mmchick]

Just because it affects everyone doesn't mean it affects everyone in the same way. That's why the "relative" is there.

Pretty sure no matter who are you, where you are, what you do, what you feel or think, everything in your community is shut down and there are exponential cases of infections/deaths/overwhelmed healthcare workers in your neighborhood. And if you're relatively lucky, there might even be opportunities for you to pitch a hand to direct the energy elsewhere.

 

[emergencydancing]

Pretty sure no matter who are you, where you are, what you do, what you feel or think, everything in your community is shut down and there are exponential cases of infections/deaths/overwhelmed healthcare workers in your neighborhood. And if you're relatively lucky, there might even be opportunities for you to pitch a hand to direct the energy elsewhere.

Yes, that doesn't mean everyone is affected the same way, still. Some people are laid off and some aren't. There's a difference being proximal to something and being affected by something. Also, don't assume I am not trying to help. But there's only so much I can do, and I have to think about future stuff too.

 

[emergencydancing]

The idea that fellow applicants are suggesting medical schools either wait for their MCAT or waive the requirement is just ridiculous to me. The idea that fellow pre-meds are worried about competitiveness of cycles during a global catastrophe is selfish. Maybe it's because I am older and have gone through my own inequities that I say this. I had to push my application out 4 years-one because my father died, the other because Hurricane Florence not only cancelled my MCAT but destroyed my home. I still had to compete with this-and wait until my late twenties to apply. And I might have wait again to next cycle because of corona. There are always unfair circumstances-life is unfair. Your pre-med journey is not always a straight, perfect path. Right now, this is not about us. Wanting to be physicians, especially, we should learn to put ourselves at the back burner. This is out of our control-and affecting so many worse things than medical school applications. Nobody knows the full implications of this. The challenge we have-and will always have-is to do the very best we can during tragic situations. Learn from this and grow up. We need to think bigger and be flexible. The worst thing we can do is lower the standards for ourselves-no the opposite, we have to rise up.

First off, I'm sorry for the things you went through, and respect your perseverance. I think it's great you have that attitude in the face of everything going on. I would like to think that if I were in the adcom's shoes, I'd make exceptions for your case in the past. However, again, not everyone has the same sacrifices or commitments. Also, just to put it out there, I for one am not asking for the MCAT to be waived since that would be unfair to applicants who already took it.

 

[GreenDuck12]

Perhaps the utility of this thread has run its course? If you’re ready to apply this cycle: apply. If you aren’t but want to gamble: apply. If there are accommodations to completing requirements that you are comfortable with: apply. If you aren’t ready or the accommodations are not sufficient: wait. At the end of the day, it is up to the applicant to prove, when compared to all other applicants, that they should be fortunate enough to receive an acceptance and earn the privilege of practicing medicine.

 

[emergencydancing]

Yup. My parents are in their late 60s and work at hospitals. They have daily talks with me about how to proceed if they pass away from this, and I'm laid off from my job. Relatives are all in iran where all cleaning supplies/masks/gloves are hoarded away and some family friends have passed away. To be called entitled for speculating on a forum meant for premed stuff about how this cycle is upsetting, to say the least...

I'm sorry to hear that, sounds like you got a lot to worry about. But yes, doesn't mean you can't worry about your own thing too--in my biased opinion, a very real concern. In my head, I know everything is going to work out and I'm still in a privileged position, relatively. But I think it's fair to be worried about how this cycle will turn out.

Yeah I think 'entitlement' was mainly directed at me, anyway, since I was the most vocal, though I guess it's 'entitled' to ask for a response of empathy. I never demanded anything, I was more reacting to the response adcoms had. I guess if I were looking at high school kids concerned about applying to high school or olympic athletes who had trained for so long for this year, I'd be more dismissive? (Until I try to be empathetic.)

 

[openstage]

One quick chime in on the practice of online interviewing, if necessary this coming cycle:

I understand cancelling all the 2nd look events now. And Online interviews may be handy for schools during this crisis time, even necessary. It's certainly cheaper for applicants than flights and hotels. But you miss A LOT by not meeting in person.

It's not just the school interviewing you, but you are sizing up the institution.

1. Staying over with med students you get the unfiltered, real deal info.
2. A lot can be gleaned by seeing the campus, facilities, library, labs etc..
3. During some of the meals with med students you can pick up certain vibes about the culture there.
4. There is a strong chance you may do your residency in that region, so you could be evaluating where to live for 7 years. A chance to see the area is really helpful.

If I'm taking out potentially 300,000 in loans (plus interest), a trip costing $7-900 seems like a small investment on my future happiness.

 

[Microbe_Hunter]

I feel like cancelling a cycle would be pretty absurd. It would be like refusing to train more troops in the midst of a war. It’s like fighting one fire (COVID-19) by creating another one (lack of a whole year of future residents/doctors).

 

[LizzyM]

Life happens. Sometimes it happens to one person and the MCAT can't be taken because you've gotten sick and need a bone marrow transplant and a couple months of isolation. It seems unfair to be unable to apply because you had an unfortunate, unforeseeable and unavoidable circumstance that affected only you. It would not seem fair to all the other applicants to expect the schools to waive the MCAT because you had to cancel your scheduled exam and no other test dates were available.

This is a different circumstance in that it is affecting many applicants, but not all. However, it does seem that we would be asked to make exceptions despite having more than enough qualified, admissable applicants. It may be that application deadlines will move and the season will be extended with interviews running into Feb/March 2021 (already the case for some schools while others typically wrap up before Christmas). Overlay this with the idea that some adcom members are on the front lines of this war trying to keep people from dying and trying not to die themselves. (At last count, 61 Italian physicians had died of Covid19.)

We are not without pity. We are just trying to keep it real and bring home the point that it is not all about you, and that extraordinary circumstances may change the landscape this year no matter how much you wish that it will not.

 

[MyOdyssey]

Texas schools will process and read your applications according to the usual timeline. They will not, however, invite anyone for an interview without seeing an MCAT score. It was perfectly timely and reasonable for TX applicants to plan their MCAT for March and April of their junior year. Cancellation of those dates puts them in a pinch. I think in Texas the interview season will be skewed towards the winter months instead of August/September/October. Playing the hand they are dealt without whining will be how our applicants show persistence and resilience this year.

As a TX resident, you're probably aware that Dallas County just extended its stay at home order until May 20th. I suspect the other major cities in TX will soon follow suit as COVID-cases are increasing rapidly and already taxing ICU capacities in my TX city.

At the recent White House press conference where the 100k to 240k fatality figure became official, Dr. Fauci said that if social distancing measures are implemented perfectly, the virus should be contained by July 1st. Dr. Fauci later amended his statement to say that social distancing measures should continue beyond the point when the virus is controlled to prevent its renewed proliferation.

Based on the above, I suspect that MCAT test dates will be cancelled at least throughout May - at least in Texas.

<<I think in Texas the interview season will be skewed towards the winter months instead of August/September/October.>>

Have TX medical schools made any official announcements to this effect? @wysdoc I've read many of your posts and I know you're very knowledgeable about all things Texas.

 

[wysdoc]

As a TX resident, you're probably aware that Dallas County just extended its stay at home order until May 20th. I suspect the other major cities in TX will soon follow suit as COVID-cases are increasing rapidly and already coming close to ICU capacities in my TX city.

At the recent White House press conference where the 100k to 240k fatality figure became official, Dr. Fauci said that if social distancing measures are implemented perfectly, the virus should be contained by July 1st. Dr. Fauci later amended his statement to say that social distancing measures should continue beyond the point when the virus is controlled to prevent from proliferating again.

Based on the above, I suspect that MCAT test dates will be cancelled at least throughout May - at least in Texas.

<<I think in Texas the interview season will be skewed towards the winter months instead of August/September/October.>>

Have TX medical schools made any official announcements to this effect? @wysdoc I've read many of your posts and I know you're very knowledgeable about all things Texas.

Keep up to date on these issues at Texas Health Education Service
Here's what the TX medical schools who have made a statement have said: TMDSAS covid 19 impact
Open the drop-downs by each school.

Overall, work on the parts of your app that you can, get those parts in. They will not extend interview invitations without an MCAT score.
Application season starts May 1 as usual but final deadline is extended to Nov.1 2020.
There have been no official announcements about interviews, as each med school is free to set their own schedule for that. Some applicants, and re-applicants, do have MCAT scores already so there is no reason those people would be delayed in the cycle, unless travel is still being restricted severely by July and August.

 

[Engrailed]

I'm curious how finances will play a role in people's 4/30 school choices.

With many people losing jobs/finances being drained, I wonder if this will add pressure to choose schools largely based on cost differences?

 

[seasalt99]

I'm curious how finances will play a role in people's 4/30 school choices.

With many people losing jobs/finances being drained, I wonder if this will add pressure to choose schools largely based on cost differences?

Good point. I wonder if schools will start being more generous with institutional aid in the next few weeks to solidify their class, or if their budget for this is already set in stone?

 

[Engrailed]

Good point. I wonder if schools will start being more generous with institutional aid in the next few weeks to solidify their class, or if their budget for this is already set in stone?

I mean... hard to say. Schools are probably also seeing huge losses in their own investment vehicles/endowments as a part of the greater stock market decline etc. Hard to know if that will cause schools to pull their purse strings tighter, especially at smaller private schools or public schools which depend on tax revenue.

 

[A_Knowbody]

I'm curious how finances will play a role in people's 4/30 school choices.

With many people losing jobs/finances being drained, I wonder if this will add pressure to choose schools largely based on cost differences?

n=1, but I lost my previous job but found a new one that is paying double, allows OT, and directly contributes to COVID response. Since everything is shut down where I live, all I do is work. My financial situation is actually looking better.

EDIT: I do understand that my situation probably isn't common.

 

[A_Knowbody]

Also, in my state, unemployment benefits (with the federal injection included) exceed weekly income for those who made under $62.5k per year. Most employed premeds likely make less than that. So others financial state may even be better just by applying for unemployment.

 

[concernedrona]

Not sure if this was answered already but I'm curious what the effect on next year's application cycle will be if large numbers of incoming med students this fall decide to defer to next year. This would mean less spots left for the class of 2025 but it seems like the general consensus on this thread is that the applicant pool overall this year may be smaller due to the MCAT being cancelled for a couple months, general pandemic issues, etc. which would mean it would be "easier" for the class of 2025. And i heard that med school deferrals are not granted as easily as it would be for say colleges. anyways would love to hear what you all think.

 

[mmchick]

Not sure if this was answered already but I'm curious what the effect on next year's application cycle will be if large numbers of incoming med students this fall decide to defer to next year. This would mean less spots left for the class of 2025 but it seems like the general consensus on this thread is that the applicant pool overall this year may be smaller due to the MCAT being cancelled for a couple months, general pandemic issues, etc. which would mean it would be "easier" for the class of 2025. And i heard that med school deferrals are not granted as easily as it would be for say colleges. anyways would love to hear what you all think.

Why do you think there would be any increase in deferrals from class of 2024? Classes are still set to go, whether they be in-person, online, or a hybrid mix of the two. I don't see this happening whatsoever.

 

[squids82]

Why do you think there would be any increase in deferrals from class of 2024? Classes are still set to go, whether they be in-person, online, or a hybrid mix of the two. I don't see this happening whatsoever.

Wouldn't they also need permission to defer which could be denied so the school doesn't have to deal with mass deferrals in the unlikely scenario that that would occur?

 

[concernedrona]

You are all probably correct. It's just that there's been a lot of articles online about incoming college freshmen wanting to defer so that they don't miss out on their freshman fall experiences. But this might not really apply to med students. There's something odd about letting aspiring physicians back out of attending in the fall due to selfish reasons when there is a great need for *more* physicians right now. And med schools have the discretion to just not allow deferrals and gap years

 

[LizzyM]

Let's play this out:

Let's say that a school has too many who have accepted the offer of admission. They'd like to off load as many as possible, down to their ideal class size, without having it cost them anything. That school will gladly entertain requests for deferrals and happily save a seat in the next class for a excellent candidate that it found admissible and highly desirable this year.

Let's say that a school has the perfect class size and a nice waitlist with waitlisted applicants sending messages of continued interest. If someone wants to defer and can be replaced with someone who was qualified but waitlisted for lack of space, the school will garner two very grateful future alumni: the one who was permitted to defer and the one who got off the waitlist. Win-win.

The school with a thin waitlist that has not filled all its seats may be hesitant to offer a waiver but might have a student choose not to matriculate which means that they lose them this year anyway and miss out on filling a seat next year.

And not every deferral is for "selfish reasons". In instances where the applicant's parents are critically ill and the applicant is caring for younger siblings (with the risk of being orphaned in the next few weeks), you'd be very hard hearted to say "show up for orientation or get lost".

If there is any concern that the applicant pool in 2020-2021 will be thin, it would make sense to try to convert some of the admissible candidates of the 2019-2020 cycle into matriculants in 2021. This could mean fewer seats for adcoms to fill from the applicant pool of 2020-2021 meaning that it will be as competitive as in years past and not a cake-walk for the average candidate.

 

[mmchick]

You are all probably correct. It's just that there's been a lot of articles online about incoming college freshmen wanting to defer so that they don't miss out on their freshman fall experiences. But this might not really apply to med students. There's something odd about letting aspiring physicians back out of attending in the fall due to selfish reasons when there is a great need for *more* physicians right now. And med schools have the discretion to just not allow deferrals and gap years

Uh yea.. not the same. Most med students are grown adults ready to start their careers, not kids straight from home wanting to throw a beer bong party with their dorm. I’d love to have as much in-person class as possible to meet my classmates and form relationships, but I won’t sacrifice another year of my career to maximize this.

 

[concernedrona]

Let's play this out:

Let's say that a school has too many who have accepted the offer of admission. They'd like to off load as many as possible, down to their ideal class size, without having it cost them anything. That school will gladly entertain requests for deferrals and happily save a seat in the next class for a excellent candidate that it found admissible and highly desirable this year.

Let's say that a school has the perfect class size and a nice waitlist with waitlisted applicants sending messages of continued interest. If someone wants to defer and can be replaced with someone who was qualified but waitlisted for lack of space, the school will garner two very grateful future alumni: the one who was permitted to defer and the one who got off the waitlist. Win-win.

The school with a thin waitlist that has not filled all its seats may be hesitant to offer a waiver but might have a student choose not to matriculate which means that they lose them this year anyway and miss out on filling a seat next year.

And not every deferral is for "selfish reasons". In instances where the applicant's parents are critically ill and the applicant is caring for younger siblings (with the risk of being orphaned in the next few weeks), you'd be very hard hearted to say "show up for orientation or get lost".

If there is any concern that the applicant pool in 2020-2021 will be thin, it would make sense to try to convert some of the admissible candidates of the 2019-2020 cycle into matriculants in 2021. This could mean fewer seats for adcoms to fill from the applicant pool of 2020-2021 meaning that it will be as competitive as in years past and not a cake-walk for the average candidate.

Totally agree with all this. I never said "every deferral is for selfish reasons." There are definitely legitimate reasons for taking a gap year like you mention. My main initial question/concern was specifically geared towards the more "selfish" reasons that we're seeing like with college kids not wanting to miss out on residential college life (a possible parallel might be an incoming MD student not wanting to miss out on the white coat ceremony? I don't know).

What your analysis seems to be missing in the second scenario is the individual in the class of 2025 who now won't have a spot because of the deferral that was allowed this year. But if the applicant pool decreases this cycle due to the pandemic then overall there may be no real difference in competitiveness. Which is the sense I'm getting from the responses here.

Also a lot of medical experts are now saying that this isn't a short term thing and our lives will be affected by the pandemic in one way or another for the foreseeable future. So for the "selfish" people (not the ones with legitimate reasons to defer, let me clarify) trying to game the system by deferring, it might all end up being futile if herd immunity isn't attainable or a vaccine isn't mass produced quickly. Might as well just get on with your medical education at that point.

 

[Goro]

I mean... hard to say. Schools are probably also seeing huge losses in their own investment vehicles/endowments as a part of the greater stock market decline etc. Hard to know if that will cause schools to pull their purse strings tighter, especially at smaller private schools or public schools which depend on tax revenue.

A smaller med school that helps keep other colleges afloat in the entire system may be adversely affected in terms of salaries. Harvard and Stanford won't break a sweat.

 

[Maimonides1]

A smaller med school that helps keep other colleges afloat in the entire system may be adversely affected in terms of salaries. Harvard and Stanford won't break a sweat.

I was surprised to read somewhere that the massive Mayo Clinic is experiencing financial disruption due to huge overheads and the loss of lucrative elective surgeries during this Covid19 pandemic..?

 

[openstage]

Every hospital system is suffering because so many non-essential procedures have been postponed. Huge lost revenue.

 

[Maimonides1]

HMS losses is 65 millions dollars in 2020 due to Covid19 !!

Medical School Faces Up to $65 Million in Losses in FY20 | News | The Harvard Crimson

Harvard Medical School is facing losses between $39 million and $65 million for the current fiscal year, Dean George Q. Daley ’82 announced in an email to affiliates Thursday.

www.thecrimson.com