Elijah McLain

[vector2]

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The number of cases where things happen like this is a very small percentage.

Whether the percentage of abuse or number of fatalities by LEOS in the US is a "small" percentage of overall police encounters in the US is irrelevant. What matters is the per capita rate of abuse or killings by law enforcement as compared to other first world nations. And that number for the US is quite bad.

Please see my post here

The ultimate COVID thread

At the same time, I believe right now, the best way to preventing yourself from being a victim of police brutality (aside from changing the police which is likely a long term process) is to just do what they say, no sudden movements, speak as little as possible (just answer the questions), and...

forums.studentdoctor.net

 

[Mad Jack]

So I think everyone can agree that the ketamine dose given by EMS was quite excessive. Can you explain what the cops did wrong exactly in this case? I've watched the bodycam footage and I'm not seeing it...

The hold used is specifically against department policy because of the risk of injury it presents. And that is aside from the excessive level of force used on a 130 pound autistic kid for literally no reason

 

[Matty44]

The hold used is specifically against department policy because of the risk of injury it presents. And that is aside from the excessive level of force used on a 130 pound autistic kid for literally no reason

In your heart, do you really think these are racist cops abusing an autistic CHILD for LITERALLY NO REASON?

I guess I just don’t see how that can be someone’s interpretation of a 23 year old who is not cooperating with police, then resists physically and reaches for an officers gun (allegedly).

Did you watch the tape?

Also, do you have any proof for what you say regarding Aurora PD choke hold policies at the time of the encounter? Cause I’m pretty sure until a few weeks ago they were allowed when there was “violent resistance” present. Guess it’s up to interpretation if someone who is described by officers as “freakishly strong” and “crazy strong” and is reaching for an officers gun would qualify as such.

 

[Mad Jack]

In your heart, do you really think these are racist cops abusing an autistic CHILD for LITERALLY NO REASON?

I guess I just don’t see how that can be someone’s interpretation of a 23 year old who is not cooperating with police, then resists physically and reaches for an officers gun (allegedly).

Did you watch the tape?

Also, do you have any proof for what you say regarding Aurora PD choke hold policies at the time of the encounter? Cause I’m pretty sure until a few weeks ago they were allowed when there was “violent resistance” present. Guess it’s up to interpretation if someone who is described by officers as “freakishly strong” and “crazy strong” and is reaching for an officers gun would qualify as such.

Yeah, he was clearly a superhuman predator 🙄

Not complying with police is not punishable by death. Resisting arrest is not punishable by death. There is no solid evidence he reached for any firearm during the encounter, and often in situations like this we have seen again and again that it is panicked officers that are poorly trained making bad decisions that cost the lives of people that should be alive and with their families. Regardless of the race of the kid, they murdered him. His being black almost certainly played into their preconceived notions about him and cost him his life.

 

[deleted480308]

I understand your points but there needs to be some allowance for socially awkward or even crazy people who have committed no crimes. Elijah didn’t read the guidelines about how to act if the police stop you for no reason. The police have tons of experience with these interactions and most of us regular people have none. The burden is on the police to deescalate and make sure no one is harmed. They had a duty to protect Elijah just as they have a duty to protect you and me.

Once a cop has decided to cuff you, there actually isn’t any allowance for awkward or crazy that allows you to fight (nor should their be)

at that point the officer has a responsibility to appropriately restrain you and once that is done to get you appropriate medical attention. They do not have a responsibility to ensure there is no way you can get hurt, when you fight you create a situation in which physical injury is on the list of possibilities as is death. Again,once a cop goes hands on, you let your lawyer fight for you as you aren’t safe to do it yourself

 

[crash2500]

Tbh it seems like you have a set view on this situation and are unwilling to accept or even engage with any narrative or viewpoint not aligned with your own.

The problem was matty44 was putting words in my mouth. I never once argued this was a racist cop killing a black man. I never said this was equivalent to George Floyd. I said the officers unnecessarily escalated the situation as they seem to do often. Situations that didn't need to go there. Why couldn't they just walk with the kid and ask him questions? Why do they feel they need to physically stop him and put their hands on him? That's violating personal space and escalating the situation. Maybe it is law. But that's the problem. As I said, we've given cops unlimited power with no accountability. Matty44 won't even acknowledge that. Instead he focuses on the cops story of a 140 lb, 23 year old having uncanny strength when multiple cops are on him like he's Peter Parker. What about the cop threatening to sic his dog on him? Completely inappropriate and just someone on a power trip. If you have that much faith in the police, we will never see eye to eye over an internet forum.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Whether the percentage of abuse or number of fatalities by LEOS in the US is a "small" percentage of overall police encounters in the US is irrelevant. What matters is the per capita rate of abuse or killings by law enforcement as compared to other first world nations. And that number for the US is quite bad.

Please see my post here

The ultimate COVID thread

At the same time, I believe right now, the best way to preventing yourself from being a victim of police brutality (aside from changing the police which is likely a long term process) is to just do what they say, no sudden movements, speak as little as possible (just answer the questions), and...

forums.studentdoctor.net

Except no it’s not? Kind of disingenuous to imply that the police in the US could act like the police in a place like Norway for example.

 

[Matty44]

Yeah, he was clearly a superhuman predator 🙄

Not complying with police is not punishable by death. Resisting arrest is not punishable by death. There is no solid evidence he reached for any firearm during the encounter, and often in situations like this we have seen again and again that it is panicked officers that are poorly trained making bad decisions that cost the lives of people that should be alive and with their families. Regardless of the race of the kid, they murdered him. His being black almost certainly played into their preconceived notions about him and cost him his life.

Cmon now Hillary, don’t go there with crazy labels [emoji6]

But I get the feeling you didn’t watch the body cam or really look into this case at all.

No solid evidence that he was reaching for the cops gun. Ok, what do you need? Was there clear video showing this? No. Does a cop in the video clearly say “he’s grabbing for your gun dude!”? Yes. So you either believe he reached for the gun, the cop just thought he reached for the gun but he didn’t, or the cop made it up on the spot. I think the first two are very likely. The third option, not so much. So if you are a cop and you witness someone reaching for your gun, or your partner yells that someone is reaching for your gun, you wouldn’t feel justified taking some one down? No one pulled a weapon and killed the guy on this assumption, they simply tackled him and put him in a choke hold. Seems more than reasonable to me.

And are you really placing the blame for the death on the cops and not the ketamine? Cmon now. [emoji849]

Your last statement is pure conjecture.

 

[vector2]

Except no it’s not? Kind of disingenuous to imply that the police in the US could act like the police in a place like Norway for example.

If you think that even with how gun ownership is in the US that we should have a fatality by police rate somewhere in between Colombia and Burkina Faso then I don’t know what to tell you.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

The problem was matty44 was putting words in my mouth. I never once argued this was a racist cop killing a black man. I never said this was equivalent to George Floyd. I said the officers unnecessarily escalated the situation as they seem to do often. Situations that didn't need to go there. Why couldn't they just walk with the kid and ask him questions? Why do they feel they need to physically stop him and put their hands on him? That's violating personal space and escalating the situation. Maybe it is law. But that's the problem. As I said, we've given cops unlimited power with no accountability. Matty44 won't even acknowledge that. Instead he focuses on the cops story of a 140 lb, 23 year old having uncanny strength when multiple cops are on him like he's Peter Parker. What about the cop threatening to sic his dog on him? Completely inappropriate and just someone on a power trip. If you have that much faith in the police, we will never see eye to eye over an internet forum.

Unlimited power with no accountability? We have officers getting fired and charged with murder before investigations into their shootings are even complete and when available footage seems to imply they were likely justified.

It’s easy to MMQB officers after the fact when you know they weren’t a danger and you know they were on the spectrum. You should try making contact with someone who is wearing a mask with his hands in his pockets who is ignoring your commands and acting like they are going to resist.

Have you ever had to take down someone who is fighting you? You’d be surprised at how difficult it can be to get someone who weighs 140 pounds under control if they don’t want to be.

And you say it’s just someone putting words in your mouth, but then you post a whole bunch of stuff that are accusatory and loaded without any supporting facts and then say straight up that if you have faith in the police we’ll never see eye to eye.

So how are you not completely biased and unwilling to entertain opposing or different views? You just said you are.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

If you think that even with how gun ownership is in the US that we should have a fatality by police rate somewhere in between Colombia and Burkina Faso then I don’t know what to tell you.

If you mean per capita, we don’t. You might want to check your data. The US has the 30th highest fatality rate by police per 10 million. You are telling me that you don’t think that the almost complete absence of guns in most of those countries you are talking about has a lot to do with why the police there mostly do not have firearms and why there are significantly fewer officer involved deaths per capita?

People who include statements like “if you don’t...then I don’t know what to tell you” generally are not capable of having rational discussions because they don’t actually want to have a discussion. They have opinions and they want other people to hear them, and they basically just wait for their turn to talk rather than listen.

 

[Matty44]

The problem was matty44 was putting words in my mouth. I never once argued this was a racist cop killing a black man. I never said this was equivalent to George Floyd. I said the officers unnecessarily escalated the situation as they seem to do often. Situations that didn't need to go there. Why couldn't they just walk with the kid and ask him questions? Why do they feel they need to physically stop him and put their hands on him? That's violating personal space and escalating the situation. Maybe it is law. But that's the problem. As I said, we've given cops unlimited power with no accountability. Matty44 won't even acknowledge that. Instead he focuses on the cops story of a 140 lb, 23 year old having uncanny strength when multiple cops are on him like he's Peter Parker. What about the cop threatening to sic his dog on him? Completely inappropriate and just someone on a power trip. If you have that much faith in the police, we will never see eye to eye over an internet forum.

Listen, I'm sorry if I unfairly assumed you were saying this was racially motivated, cause others clearly are saying just that. And Choco made the comment about it being the same or worse than George Floyd. I don't think I ever attributed that to you.

You are correct, I won't acknowledge that cops have unlimited power with no accountability. Many cops are prosecuted when there is evidence they acted outside of the law. For example, Derek Chauvin will rot in jail for the rest of his life for what he did. And as Matthew points out, many are being judged unfairly prior to any investigation and without any evidence. I've completely acknowledged that there's room for plenty of discussion, policy changes, etc. I acknowledged that the cops should've cuffed him when he passed out briefly and had that be the end of it. I've said giving ketamine seems largely unjustified. And I don't think the dog comment was warranted. But I DO think most cops are well-intentioned people just trying to protect the public and themselves. Are there (very) bad apples among the group, sure.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Yeah, he was clearly a superhuman predator 🙄

Not complying with police is not punishable by death. Resisting arrest is not punishable by death. There is no solid evidence he reached for any firearm during the encounter, and often in situations like this we have seen again and again that it is panicked officers that are poorly trained making bad decisions that cost the lives of people that should be alive and with their families. Regardless of the race of the kid, they murdered him. His being black almost certainly played into their preconceived notions about him and cost him his life.

Do you have evidence that he didn’t? Or that he at least didn’t look like he was?

It’s pretty easy to MMQB people after the facts are out and you can spend as long as you want to pick apart a situation that lasted seconds to minutes from the comfort of your own home.

Not complying with police is not punishable by death unless by not complying you are placing the officer’s or someone else’s life in danger. I have had several encounters with police and have managed every time to not get killed or injured, and not all of them were polite.

 

[crash2500]

That’s absolutely the truth, yet it’s the front and center narrative of every story like this with usually very little, if any, supporting evidence. If an investigation is done and it comes out that the cop in question acted out of line AND he or she has some kind of history that implicated him/her as racist, THEN start discussing it. Sadly, these stories as used to stoke racial anger and divide us as a country more and more.

What’s even more concerning to me is that the gov of CO is having them redo the investigation simply on the basis that there is public outrage. I haven’t heard any implication that the first investigation was flawed in any way, or that there is any new evidence that warrants further review (correct me if I’m wrong please). Seems like the angry mob is dictating legal proceedings. That’s a bad precedent to set.

Listen, I'm sorry if I unfairly assumed you were saying this was racially motivated, cause others clearly are saying just that. And Choco made the comment about it being the same or worse than George Floyd. I don't think I ever attributed that to you.

You are correct, I won't acknowledge that cops have unlimited power with no accountability. Many cops are prosecuted when there is evidence they acted outside of the law. For example, Derek Chauvin will rot in jail for the rest of his life for what he did. And as Matthew points out, many are being judged unfairly prior to any investigation and without any evidence. I've completely acknowledged that there's room for plenty of discussion, policy changes, etc. I acknowledged that the cops should've cuffed him when he passed out briefly and had that be the end of it. I've said giving ketamine seems largely unjustified. And I don't think the dog comment was warranted. But I DO think most cops are well-intentioned people just trying to protect the public and themselves. Are there (very) bad apples among the group, sure.

Do you think Chauvin would be in jail if there weren't bystanders videoing the incident? How many cops have been held accountable before the George Floyd incident? Probably can count them on one hand. Do you think such a few number is reasonable given everything we are seeing these days with officer interactions? Do you think police officers have too much power and often abuse it?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Do you think Chauvin would be in jail if there weren't bystanders videoing the incident? How many cops have been held accountable before the George Floyd incident? Probably can count them on one hand. Do you think such a few number is reasonable given everything we are seeing these days with officer interactions? Do you think police officers have too much power and often abuse it?

I can count on more than one hand the ones I know just off the top of my head, but I’m sure you’ll find away to disregard that since it doesn’t fit your narrative.

 

[deleted480308]

Because


Do you think Chauvin would be in jail if there weren't bystanders videoing the incident? How many cops have been held accountable before the George Floyd incident? Probably can count them on one hand. Do you think such a few number is reasonable given everything we are seeing these days with officer interactions? Do you think police officers have too much power and often abuse it?

I think videos are great, I think occasionally some cops get away with stuff they shouldn’t and occasionally we see justified shootings by officers innaccurately portrayed as murder by the mob

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I think videos are great, I think occasionally some cops get away with stuff they shouldn’t and occasionally we see justified shootings by officers innaccurately portrayed as murder by the mob

*cough* Michael Brown *cough*

 

[vector2]

If you mean per capita, we don’t. You might want to check your data. The US has the 30th highest fatality rate by police per 10 million. You are telling me that you don’t think that the almost complete absence of guns in most of those countries you are talking about has a lot to do with why the police there mostly do not have firearms and why there are significantly fewer officer involved deaths per capita?

People who include statements like “if you don’t...then I don’t know what to tell you” generally are not capable of having rational discussions because they don’t actually want to have a discussion. They have opinions and they want other people to hear them, and they basically just wait for their turn to talk rather than listen.

It seems you didn’t even bother clicking the link to see my post listing where the US lies in per capital police fatality rate. That certainly informs me of how much you want to talk vs listen or how interested you are in a rational discussion.

But I’ll link it for you directly.

List of countries with annual rates and counts for killings by law enforcement officers - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The US is 21st in the world according to the list, and while I agree a comparison to Denmark or Norway isn’t as useful, maybe the comparison to Switzerland’s rate (0) where there is still 1 gun for every 4 citizens should be. And if that doesn’t do it for you, maybe the US having a fatality by police rate akin to Nigeria, a country rampant with crime and terrorism that also has 200 million out of the 500 million illegal firearms in all of Africa should be.

 

[Matty44]

Do you think Chauvin would be in jail if there weren't bystanders videoing the incident?

If there was no video evidence do I think the cops would turn each other in for murder? Questionable at best. Thank god we have some evidence. And as sb said, sometimes they probably get away with stuff, sometimes they don't. That's why the more body cam footage and public footage the better. Maybe there needs to be policies enacted where there is severe punishment for blatant removal or refusal to use body cams? I don't know how they currently handle that stuff.

How many cops have been held accountable before the George Floyd incident? Probably can count them on one hand. Do you think such a few number is reasonable given everything we are seeing these days with officer interactions? Do you think police officers have too much power and often abuse it?

I DO think cops tend to abuse power, for sure. That's why we need MORE funding for police. More training, more scrutiny/psych evals/requirements to become an officer. More things done to weed out the A-holes who go on power trips. I totally agree. But looking at the number of police interactions on a yearly basis compared to the number of unarmed people killed by cops, POIS/murders of innocents are an infinitesimally small number.

 

[crash2500]

I can count on more than one hand the ones I know just off the top of my head, but I’m sure you’ll find away to disregard that since it doesn’t fit your narrative.

Go ahead.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

It seems you didn’t even bother clicking the link to see my post listing where the US lies in per capital police fatality rate. That certainly informs me of how much you want to talk vs listen or how interested you are in a rational discussion.

But I’ll link it for you directly.

List of countries with annual rates and counts for killings by law enforcement officers - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Nice attempt at a turnaround there. I didn’t click on the link because I didn’t want to go hunting for the stats. I looked them up myself. Sources other than Wikipedia had us lower on the list, but I can accept the wiki numbers too.

The US is 21st in the world according to the list, and while I agree a comparison to Denmark or Norway isn’t as useful, maybe the comparison to Switzerland’s rate (0) where there is still 1 gun for every 4 citizens should be. And if that doesn’t do it for you, maybe the US having a fatality by police rate akin to Nigeria, a country rampant with crime and terrorism that also has 200 million out of the 500 million illegal firearms in all of Africa should be.

There are fairly significant differences there. First, there are about 120.5 guns per 100 people in the US versus 27.5 per 100 people in Switzerland. That’s a significant difference. Additionally, gun crime is lower there. There are 12 deaths per 100,000 here versus 7 there.

One of the big reasons for this may be cultural. There is mandatory military service for males there. I know from my personal experience, while the culture of the military is fairly pro gun, there is also much more respect for firearms and authority.

Additionally, half the firearms owned in Switzerland are former service firearms bought at the end of mandatory service, which is an option there that many people take.

The culture there is also different, as there are national shooting competitions for teens, and the people who do own weapons generally view it as a patriotic duty to protect Switzerland and not just themselves. There are less than 50 attempted homicides there per year.

I’m willing to bet that mandatory service combined with the much lower number of guns is a huge part of the difference there.

As for Nigeria, I’m not sure that argument says what you think. The fact that they have tons of guns and a lot of illegal guns and a high fatality rate by police is kind of the point.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Go ahead.

It is extremely easy information to find.

Just this year, a police officer was fired and charged with assault after pushing a woman down during a protest (she almost died).

The officers involved in pushing over the 75 year old man have been fired and charged (don’t get me started on the other officers in the unit resigning—that was a disgrace).

An officer in Philly was charged after hitting a college student with a baton.

An officer in Virginia was charged after he used a taser on a man that was resisting being sent to a rehab center.

Six officers in Atlanta were charged with multiple counts for excessive force on two college students in a car.

That’s one hand just in this year, and only if you count incidents. It’s more than just five officers. Six were charged in that last incident alone. I can go back over the last few years of officers charged after being involved in shootings and other use of force incidents, but I’d run out of fingers and toes.

 

[crash2500]

It is extremely easy information to find.

Just this year, a police officer was fired and charged with assault after pushing a woman down during a protest (she almost died).

The officers involved in pushing over the 75 year old man have been fired and charged (don’t get me started on the other officers in the unit resigning—that was a disgrace).

An officer in Philly was charged after hitting a college student with a baton.

An officer in Virginia was charged after he used a taser on a man that was resisting being sent to a rehab center.

Six officers in Atlanta were charged with multiple counts for excessive force on two college students in a car.

That’s one hand just in this year, and only if you count incidents. It’s more than just five officers. Six were charged in that last incident alone. I can go back over the last few years of officers charged after being involved in shootings and other use of force incidents, but I’d run out of fingers and toes.

You clearly didn't read my post. I said how many were held accountable BEFORE the George Floyd incident.

 

[crash2500]

It is extremely easy information to find.

Just this year, a police officer was fired and charged with assault after pushing a woman down during a protest (she almost died).

The officers involved in pushing over the 75 year old man have been fired and charged (don’t get me started on the other officers in the unit resigning—that was a disgrace).

An officer in Philly was charged after hitting a college student with a baton.

An officer in Virginia was charged after he used a taser on a man that was resisting being sent to a rehab center.

Six officers in Atlanta were charged with multiple counts for excessive force on two college students in a car.

That’s one hand just in this year, and only if you count incidents. It’s more than just five officers. Six were charged in that last incident alone. I can go back over the last few years of officers charged after being involved in shootings and other use of force incidents, but I’d run out of fingers and toes.

And it doesn't matter if you are charged if you are acquitted. That's not being held accountable.

 

[vector2]

Nice attempt at a turnaround there. I didn’t click on the link because I didn’t want to go hunting for the stats. I looked them up myself. Sources other than Wikipedia had us lower on the list, but I can accept the wiki numbers too.




There are fairly significant differences there. First, there are about 120.5 guns per 100 people in the US versus 27.5 per 100 people in Switzerland. That’s a significant difference. Additionally, gun crime is lower there. There are 12 deaths per 100,000 here versus 7 there.

One of the big reasons for this may be cultural. There is mandatory military service for males there. I know from my personal experience, while the culture of the military is fairly pro gun, there is also much more respect for firearms and authority.

Additionally, half the firearms owned in Switzerland are former service firearms bought at the end of mandatory service, which is an option there that many people take.

The culture there is also different, as there are national shooting competitions for teens, and the people who do own weapons generally view it as a patriotic duty to protect Switzerland and not just themselves. There are less than 50 attempted homicides there per year.

I’m willing to bet that mandatory service combined with the much lower number of guns is a huge part of the difference there.

As for Nigeria, I’m not sure that argument says what you think. The fact that they have tons of guns and a lot of illegal guns and a high fatality rate by police is kind of the point.

It wasn’t an attempt, the pie thrown actually hit you in the face- since you admitted you didn’t even bother to look at the sources someone posted before disputing them. Not to mention, I linked you to a post that had a screen capture insert of the US’s rate amongst other countries with similar rates- you didn’t need to search for anything.

Let’s go back to what you originally said before you go off on all these tangents and excuses. You said that the rate of fatalities by police In the US was essentially an insignificant absolute number. I said the absolute number is irrelevant because the per capita rate compared to other countries is what’s important. You disagreed with this, stating that a comparison to Norway isn’t fair. I agreed, so I compared it to Switzerland and Nigeria. No matter what excuses you want to make about Switzerland vis a vis their culture or military service, fact remains they have firearms in their country and firearms crime, yet their fatality by police rate is essentially zero

As for Nigeria, I’m glad you concur that they have high crime and a high fatality by law enforcement rate. But guess what their fatalities by law enforcement rate is? 44 per 10 million. Now guess what ours is? 46.6 / 10 million. Now, either we have a degree of lawlessness and terrorism somewhat akin to sub-Saharan Africa or maybe..just maybe our LEOs having itchy trigger fingers (particularly with young black males) is significant part of a multifactorial problem.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

You clearly didn't read my post. I said how many were held accountable BEFORE the George Floyd incident.

And just like I said, any way to possibly ignore facts. Fine.

An officer in Tennessee a few years ago was charged with homicide after shooting a black man in the back while he was running away. That was last year.

A female officer in 2016 was charged with shooting an unarmed black man in Tulsa or something.

A Philadelphia officer was charged in 2017 with homicide after shooting a black man in the back.

Roy Oliver was charged with murder after firing into a car filled with black teens and killing one. This was also in 2017 I think.

A New York housing police officer was fired and charged with negligent homicide after he was startled and fired his gun accidentally, killing a man. I forget what year that happened, but he was convicted in 2016 or 2017.

A female officer was charged with reckless homicide after killing a fleeing suspect in 2017 or 2018 I think. She was acquitted and then fired after accusations of sexual assault came up.

Another female officer was charged when she accidentally entered her neighbor’s house instead of hers and killed the neighbor when she thought he was a burglar.

An officer in Atlanta was charged with felony murder after shooting into a car killing someone. This was also in 2016.

These are just random ones where officers were charged for killing people. It doesn’t even cover all of them in recent years, and it doesn’t account for officers suspended or fired for using excessive force that didn’t result in a death.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

And it doesn't matter if you are charged if you are acquitted. That's not being held accountable.

So the department firing you and then the DA charging you with murder isn’t being held accountable because a jury acquitted them? Lord, how are you not exhausted from all these mental gymnastics? Do you not see how you’re just so completely biased and dug in?

edited for a spelling mistake.

 

[vector2]

Colombia - 19 firearm homicides per 100,000. 34.1 fatalities by police per 10 million.

US. - 4.5 firearm homicides per 100,000. 46.6 fatalities by police per 10 million.

List of countries with annual rates and counts for killings by law enforcement officers - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

List of countries by firearm-related homicide rates - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

It wasn’t an attempt, the pie thrown actually hit you in the face- since you admitted you didn’t even bother to look at the sources someone posted before disputing them. Not to mention, I linked you to a post that had a screen capture insert of the US’s rate amongst other countries with similar rates- you didn’t need to search for anything.

Let’s go back to what you originally said before you go off on all these tangents and excuses. You said that the rate of fatalities by police In the US was essentially an insignificant absolute number. I said the absolute number is irrelevant because the per capita rate compared to other countries is what’s important. You disagreed with this, stating that a comparison to Norway isn’t fair. I agreed, so I compared it to Switzerland and Nigeria. No matter what excuses you want to make about Switzerland vis a vis their culture or military service, fact remains they have firearms in their country and firearms crime, yet their fatality by police rate is essentially zer

As for Nigeria, I’m glad you concur that they have high crime and a high fatality by law enforcement rate. But guess what their fatalities by law enforcement rate is? 44 per 10 million. Now guess what ours is? 46.6 / 10 million. Now, either we have a degree of lawlessness and terrorism somewhat akin to sub-Saharan Africa or maybe..just maybe our LEOs having itchy trigger fingers (particularly with young black males) is significant part of a multifactorial problem.

Basically exactly what I expected. You state a position, I disagreed with you and gave you my reasons, and you followed up with an insult and then proceeded to move the goal posts and cherry pick data while ignoring parts of it that don’t support your argument, all while being condescending.

Maybe you should go back to your echo chamber where people don’t disagree with you and make you feel uncomfortable since you clearly don’t want to actually discuss anything. As I predicted.

 

[crash2500]

So the department firing you and then the DA charging you with murder isn’t being held accountable because a jury acquitted them? Lord, how are you not exhausted from all these mental gymnastics? Do you not see how you’re just so completely biased and dig in?

You honestly think the DA in many of these situations isn't aligned with the police department? Do you think these were fair and honest trials?

Again show me convictions. Otherwise it's all just lip service.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

You honestly think the DA in many of these situations isn't aligned with the police department? Do you think these were fair and honest trials?

Again show me convictions. Otherwise it's all just lip service.

What’s the point? When I show you convictions, you’ll just find something else. Like they didn’t get as long of a sentence as they should have. Or they weren’t put in gen pop with the people they put away. Or they weren’t ****ed up in prison enough.

You don’t actually want what you claim you’re asking for, because your mind is made up so you’ll just continue to move the goal posts until the other side gives up.

 

[vector2]

Basically exactly what I expected. You state a position, I disagreed with you and gave you my reasons, and you followed up with an insult and then proceeded to move the goal posts and cherry pick data while ignoring parts of it that don’t support your argument, all while being condescending.

Maybe you should go back to your echo chamber where people don’t disagree with you and make you feel uncomfortable since you clearly don’t want to actually discuss anything. As I predicted.

What in the flying **** are you rambling about? Again, you said the fatalities by police numbers in the US were insignificant, I said fatalities by police per capita is what matters, then I posted the per capita numbers showing the US is on par with countries with crazy high gun crime and terrorism....and now you’re whining about goal posts? Go read what you originally wrote because your tantrum is embarrassing.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

What in the flying **** are you rambling about? Again, you said the numbers were insignificant, I said fatalities by police per capita is what matters, then I posted the per capita numbers showing the US is on par with countries with crazy high gun crime and terrorism....and now you’re whining about goal posts? Go read what you originally wrote because your tantrum is embarrassing.

The irony of this post was just too good to not quote it for posterity.

 

[vector2]

The irony of this post was just too good to not quote it for posterity.

Please do. We need to archive how dumbfounded you were to discover that the US has a higher per capita fatality by police rate than Nigeria or Colombia and the cognitive dissonance it requires to know that fact and still think US police brutality and trigger discipline isn’t a problem.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Please do. We need to archive how dumbfounded you were to discover that the US has a higher per capita fatality by police rate than Nigeria or Colombia.

Please, keep it coming. I love being insulted for providing facts and logical arguments and then told I’m throwing a temper tantrum when I call you out for insulting me and using logical fallacies.

 

[vector2]

Please, keep it coming. I love being insulted for providing facts and logical arguments and then told I’m throwing a temper tantrum when I call you out for insulting me and using logical fallacies.

You haven’t presented any logical argument nor pointed out any logical fallacy. The US has a fatality by police rate which is well out of proportion to its firearms homicide rate when both rates are compared to other countries in which those proportional statistics are available (including the countries discussed above Colombia, Nigeria, Switzerland etc). That’s an indisputable fact.

 

[Lawpy]

*insert Lawpy statement on abolishing police unions/ending qualified immunity/ending war on drugs*

I'm going to try to push this at national scale somehow.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

*insert Lawpy statement on abolishing police unions/ending qualified immunity/ending war on drugs*

I'm going to try to push this at national scale somehow.

In what world would ending police unions and qualified immunity be a good idea?

The war on drugs? Totally support ending that.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

You haven’t presented any logical argument nor pointed out any logical fallacy. The US has a fatality by police rate which is well out of proportion to its firearms homicide rate when both rates are compared to other countries in which those proportional statistics are available (including the countries discussed above Colombia, Nigeria, Switzerland etc). That’s an indisputable fact.

I’ve pointed out a few actually. I’ve also made a pretty reasoned argument for why the comparison to Switzerland is not a great one, which you chose to ignore rather than refute. I would have made an argument as to why Nigeria and the US are similar in numbers but not likely because police are just murder happy, but your various fallacies, ignoring my arguments, and multiple insults sort of defeat the purpose since you clearly don’t want to actually discuss this.

Like I said at the beginning, people who say “If you think [insert statement you don’t agree with], then I don’t know what to tell you” usually don’t want to actually discuss that topic, they just want to make sure everyone hears their opinion.

And insulting people and mischaracterizing what they say in an obvious attempt to get a rise out of them so you can point to that and then “win” is the same tactic some of my less mature girlfriends have used.

If you think you can respond to my actual points instead of your own version of the debate and can do so without being insulting or rude, then let me know and we can continue the conversation.

 

[Lawpy]

In what world would ending police unions and qualified immunity be a good idea?

The war on drugs? Totally support ending that.

Police unions have consistently stalled and opposed reforms. And police shouldn't unionize in the first place especially since cops have historically busted many unions and broke strikes. Cops are also increasingly militarized, and the military doesn't unionize.

Now i understand the bigger problem of public sector unions so i'm thinking more about that. However if there is one public union to abolish, police unions fit that category. No reforms can take place as long as police unions continue to exist. And i'd much rather get rid of police unions than defunding or dismantling the police.

Qualified immunity is the major factor that actively protects bad cops from prosecution. That and the existing collaboration between prosecutors and cops aren't helping. Qualified immunity makes it hard to prosecute bad and sociopathic cops which is why prosecuting Chauvin with murder charges was so rare.

 

[Lawpy]

Why the prosecution of a Minneapolis police officer is such a rarity

The doctrine of “qualified immunity” too often gives police miscreants a free pass

www.economist.com

 

[Lawpy]

Also ban no knock warrants

 

[narcusprince]

Here's the video of Elijah actually getting injected w the ketamine. He does not appear to be in a state of agitation at all and is restrained by multiple officers. There was no need for him to get it. You can see they definitely inject the full 10 cc syringe. I once had to emergently ketamine dart a young dude w no IV access going thru DT's and on a rampage going after people. Probably weighed 250 easy, most of it muscle, gave the full 500mg. It was lights out.

This is an execution!

 

[Mad Jack]

Do you have evidence that he didn’t? Or that he at least didn’t look like he was?

It’s pretty easy to MMQB people after the facts are out and you can spend as long as you want to pick apart a situation that lasted seconds to minutes from the comfort of your own home.

Not complying with police is not punishable by death unless by not complying you are placing the officer’s or someone else’s life in danger. I have had several encounters with police and have managed every time to not get killed or injured, and not all of them were polite.

Cmon now Hillary, don’t go there with crazy labels [emoji6]

But I get the feeling you didn’t watch the body cam or really look into this case at all.

No solid evidence that he was reaching for the cops gun. Ok, what do you need? Was there clear video showing this? No. Does a cop in the video clearly say “he’s grabbing for your gun dude!”? Yes. So you either believe he reached for the gun, the cop just thought he reached for the gun but he didn’t, or the cop made it up on the spot. I think the first two are very likely. The third option, not so much. So if you are a cop and you witness someone reaching for your gun, or your partner yells that someone is reaching for your gun, you wouldn’t feel justified taking some one down? No one pulled a weapon and killed the guy on this assumption, they simply tackled him and put him in a choke hold. Seems more than reasonable to me.

And are you really placing the blame for the death on the cops and not the ketamine? Cmon now. [emoji849]

Your last statement is pure conjecture.

One of the other officers clearly states he didn't feel Elijah reach for his gun. This was probably the typical panic we see in video after video of police, where they misinterpret someone moving as something threatening when it clearly isn't. It seems more plausible to me that the officer that did not believe he was grabbing his gun was correct given the fact that Elijah was a kid with no history of violence that had never operated a firearm in his life, and that he was struggling and his movements were misinterpreted in the heat of the moment. Killing an innocent man is still murder, or manslaughter at best, and I believe we should be charging officers that kill people the same as we would anyone else.

While the dose of ketamine was high, it wasn't likely to have been fatal on its own, and wouldn't have been called for had the police not decided to apprehend an innocent man for literally nothing

 

[deleted480308]

Please do. We need to archive how dumbfounded you were to discover that the US has a higher per capita fatality by police rate than Nigeria or Colombia and the cognitive dissonance it requires to know that fact and still think US police brutality and trigger discipline isn’t a problem.

Out of curiousity, do you think the fact that police in those nations are useless and corrupt might influence the numbers given that they clearly aren’t actually enforcing anything resembling order?

 

[deleted480308]

Also ban no knock warrants

They should definitely be far more rare. And they should be so well planned that everyone involved should be charged if they roll into the wrong place, you kick in the wrong damn door and shoot someone you should be in jail for murder

 

[Lawpy]

They should definitely be far more rare. And they should be so well planned that everyone involved should be charged if they roll into the wrong place, you kick in the wrong damn door and shoot someone you should be in jail for murder

Thoughts on cops getting a liability insurance where they or their unions pay for the damages? Its problematic because they're government workers so taxpayers can get dinged.

 

[Matty44]

One of the other officers clearly states he didn't feel Elijah reach for his gun. This was probably the typical panic we see in video after video of police, where they misinterpret someone moving as something threatening when it clearly isn't. It seems more plausible to me that the officer that did not believe he was grabbing his gun was correct given the fact that Elijah was a kid with no history of violence that had never operated a firearm in his life, and that he was struggling and his movements were misinterpreted in the heat of the moment. Killing an innocent man is still murder, or manslaughter at best, and I believe we should be charging officers that kill people the same as we would anyone else.

While the dose of ketamine was high, it wasn't likely to have been fatal on its own, and wouldn't have been called for had the police not decided to apprehend an innocent man for literally nothing

You say something “clearly isn’t a threat” from your high horse in hindsight. That’s not the right mindset to be judging these situations from. The cops were not aware of this guy’s cat serenading prowess prior to their interaction.

You still don’t seem to be able to distinguish between armchair quarterbacking and someone interpreting in the moment what they view as a threatening action from someone, particularly when their partner tells them someone is reaching for their gun. Put your self in that cops shoes for two seconds if you can. It’s dark outside (10:30), man in mask, who you’ve known for a total of 30 seconds, is being physically uncooperative, not following simple instructions, tussling with you and ranting about whatever, and then your partner says “he’s going for your gun!”

You telling me you wouldn’t feel justified for taking that guy to the ground in a choke hold? Even if after the fact you realize you never felt him reach for your gun? (Which btw, seems irrelevant. If someone reached for your gun and came up an inch short, would you feel anything? Anyways...) What if that cop was your son? Would you criticize him for taking the guy down then? If you can’t sympathize with that rationale in the moment I don’t think you’re being honest with yourself.

And you keep saying innocent man. Innocent before interacting with police. After cops show up, he is now guilty of resisting arrest, potential harming a cop, etc. You keep saying innocent man like the cops tackled him from behind without warning and just murdered him for no reason. We both know that’s not at all the case. Let’s have some intellectual honesty here please.



Also....you’re using “literally” wrong [emoji57]

 

[vector2]

I’ve pointed out a few actually. I’ve also made a pretty reasoned argument for why the comparison to Switzerland is not a great one, which you chose to ignore rather than refute. I would have made an argument as to why Nigeria and the US are similar in numbers but not likely because police are just murder happy, but your various fallacies, ignoring my arguments, and multiple insults sort of defeat the purpose since you clearly don’t want to actually discuss this.

Like I said at the beginning, people who say “If you think [insert statement you don’t agree with], then I don’t know what to tell you” usually don’t want to actually discuss that topic, they just want to make sure everyone hears their opinion.

And insulting people and mischaracterizing what they say in an obvious attempt to get a rise out of them so you can point to that and then “win” is the same tactic some of my less mature girlfriends have used.

If you think you can respond to my actual points instead of your own version of the debate and can do so without being insulting or rude, then let me know and we can continue the conversation.

I’m sure what you think you’re doing is original, but the tactic of straight up refusing to engage when you’ve been caught flat footed and falsely accusing your opponent of fallacies and mischaracterization to create a reason not to is a pretty tired one. You may have a number of explanations and excuses for why Switzerland or Nigeria have lower fatality by police rates, but I’ll inconveniently bring you back to the beginning before you diverge further.

Your original statement I quoted was “the number of cases where things like this happen is insignificant.” And I pointed out that this statement is totally meaningless without some frame of reference, I.e. numbers per capita compared to somewhere else and I eventually pointed out we have a rate in between Burkina Faso and Colombia, to which you replied “If you mean per capita, we don’t.” This was, of course, after you didn’t even bother clicking my link to look at the table before belligerently plowing ahead or else you would’ve discovered your “we don’t” was wrong.

Now, you can go on all day with explanations of how trigger happy police have nothing to do with the fact that our rate is higher than a high-homicide former Narco-state or a high-homicide country that houses Boko Haram, but I hope you can acknowledge at the very least that the US’s per capita [fatality by police : firearms homicides] ratio is wwaaayyyyyy out of line with other gun-owning and non-gun-owning countries where those data are available, and thus saying the number of cases that happen here is “insignificant” is a misleading statement.

 

[deleted480308]

Thoughts on cops getting a liability insurance where they or their unions pay for the damages? Its problematic because they're government workers so taxpayers can get dinged.

The govt should be held liable for bad policy and it should hurt the taxpayer so they are incentivized to fix it. The cops should face actual jail themselves if they act grossly out of line. The flip of that is the public has to get more realistic about what is and isn’t bad behavior by a cop