EM and FIRE

[Mutt22]

One book that I think need to be included in this discussion: The Ponzi Factor: The Simple Truth About Investment Profits by Tan Liu:

[paylink removed]

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as self-evident." --Arthur Schopenhauer

The Ponzi Factor is the most comprehensive research ever compiled on the negative-sum nature of capital gains—the money people make from buying and selling stocks. Unlike other finance books, this book does not assume stocks are ownership instruments. It investigates the ownership assumption and asks, “Why are stocks ownership instruments if the owners never receive money from the companies they own?”

Most people don't realize that profits from buying and selling stocks come from other investors who are also buying and selling stocks. When one investor buys low and sells high, another investor is also buying high and needs to sell for even higher. Companies like Google, Telsa, Facebook never pay their investors. Their investors' profits are dependent on the inflow of money from new investors, which by definition, is how a Ponzi scheme works.

This book is not for everyone. If you are a finance junkie who wants to rationalize why companies don't have to pay their investors and believe a system that shuffles money between investor can magically create more money than people contribute, then this book is not for you. On the other hand, if you understand why we can't create money by shuffling it with imaginary paper, and that investors invest because they want money, not value, then you will learn something you will never forget: The mechanics of how the stock market works and what really makes a stock price move.

A stock without dividends is a Ponzi asset. It's not how equity instruments were designed to work historically and not how ownership instruments are supposed to work logically. The Ponzi Factor is not a perspective or an opinion. It is a proof that is based on definition, logic, and it is supported by observable facts and history. This is not a story that will disappear after another market crash. It is an idea that will remain relevant for as long as the stock market exists.

Lastly, to critics, the naysayer, and the finance junkies who think the imaginary value = cash. The author will award $20,000 to anyone who can show why non-dividend stocks DO NOT meet the definition of a Ponzi scheme. That’s $20,000 in cash, not value. (Details on this book's website. The Ponzi Factor. Proof by Definition.)

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[EctopicFetus]

A few things on the syndication deals. Keep in mind on many of those deals the GPs put in very little. Often have a waterfall return whereby they do better as the property does better thereby capping your returns.

I bought a few units myself. I have no issue with syndication but owning properties myself gives me control. My first intentional deal was a duplex where with repairs i was in under 200k. About 60k in cash. This thing cash flows 1k a month, it appreciated by 40-50k (I just got it reappraised for a refi). So in 18 months I have a near 100% return not including the monthly cash flow.

I can sell if I want to, in many syndications you dont have that option. also depending on the syndication your tax breaks are limited.

No issue with syndication but there is major value in doing it yourself.

Want to make real money? See if you can get into the PE funds run by black stone etc. They have historically earned 18% per year and some of the funds have few limits on what they will invest in.

 

[Fox800]

Are you an accredited investor? The good syndicate deals are mostly only for accredited investors.

As the guy that paid off my debt in 6-7 months post residency and made it to the WCI podcast, honestly, don't do what i did. 1.75% is nothing. Now that I'm getting better and better at investing, i feel like i missed out on opportunity. Debt is a tool. Never again will you be able to get debt at 1.75%. Imagine paying off your student loans, and then taking a mortgage at 2.5 - 3 percent a year or so later. I mean.... That makes no sense.

Do you know how easy it is to get more than 1.75% interest?

Russell 2000 is at $2215 (RUT). Selling a naked put for 40 days from now with strike price $1650 right now has premium of $260. That's $260 on $16500 of cash, that's 1.5% return in 40 days (likely less) betting that a black swan event of Russell 2000 small cap dropping 25 percent in 40 days will not happen. If it does, hey you just rollover the trade and drop the strike price until you're right. This trade literally has a 99.96 percent probability of success based on today's implied volatility. This is how easy it is to make up your interest if you know what you're doing. Granted.... Don't do options without knowing what you're doing lol.

Also, if you look at the deal on crowdstreet that i put money in, parc place apartments. It's still open to funding. The sponsor has greater than 1 billion in real estate assets that they currently manage, they operate in 17 states, have ridiculous experience and the project is essentially part of their core competencies. Plus it's a value add deal, the property will give off 7% cash flow immediately, and as property improvements are made, rents will rise and eventually property price. Value add is obviously less risky. This is my first syndicate deal, but i feel pretty comfortable dropping 25k in that. Even if i don't realize the 18% IRR. It will be hard to get a loss on a cash flowing income producing asset that's being bought in an off market deal at a slight discount. Like i said, look at it yourself, it's the parc place apartments in Miami - literally across one of their stadiums and top golf.

The other deal I'm looking at is The Rae apartments in bethesda MD. It is a development, so more risk, no immediate cash flow, but bigger upside and reward. But sponsor has 5 billion of assets under management. It's folger pratt, huge real estate firm and vertically integrated. All their last multi family development project were finished successfully with large returns, so they have the right experience. The complex will be next to highways for commuters which is important for the DC metro area. And it's right next to Westgate mall, which is developing more and getting expanded. It's a great location and the numbers make great sense, i just haven't gotten around to pulling the trigger here because new development makes me kinda nervous, even if bigger reward.

If i had to do it again, i would invest everyday instead of paying off debt at that interest. If someone offered me a million dollars in loan money at that interest i will take it and still invest.

I'm in the process of getting options approval at TDA. I just need to watch their education courses and get on with it, get approved for a higher level and go for it.

 

[wamcp]

I'm in the process of getting options approval at TDA. I just need to watch their education courses and get on with it, get approved for a higher level and go for it.

Apply for portfolio margin to step it up. Gives you a huge advantage over standard margin

Charles Schwab

 

[cyanide12345678]

I'm in the process of getting options approval at TDA. I just need to watch their education courses and get on with it, get approved for a higher level and go for it.

Don't start big. Start small. Learn. Maybe even start with a paper account and experience what a down turn is like

 

[cyanide12345678]

I'm in the process of getting options approval at TDA. I just need to watch their education courses and get on with it, get approved for a higher level and go for it.

Watch the education courses by tasty trade on YouTube. Those will be more helpful. They have a full beginners course as well

 

[emergentmd]

1. Apt/Multifamily/Mobile home parks/storage facilities work on the same principle and it is economy of scale and money leverage. There is no magic potion to this. Typically you need to be a qualified investor and for MDs its a low bar that 99% should be able to meet. Syndication is completely passive which people like but the trade off is the GP skimming profits for their work which is fair. It works just the same way if you bought a rental property but that is an active process. How both makes money is essentially the same way.

Syndication vs buying a rental property
Syndication monthly distribution (typically 7-10%) vs cash flow from property (Highly variable)
Syndication cash out refi when property appraisal goes up vs cash out refi when property goes up
Syndication sells out and everyone reaps the profits vs I sell my rental and I reap all the profits.
You can do 1031 with both, both take similar real estate deductions/depreciation, thus follow similar tax/real estate advantages

Difference is syndication is no work/passive vs buying a rental is more work/active
Syndication has lower risks b/c you can only lose what you put in vs buying a rental and risk losing your down payment + any carrying/operational loss + selling house at a loss
Syndication has lower upside = less risk vs rental properties higher upside = high risks
Syndication you have no control vs rental property you have all the control.

This is my limited experience and helps compare similar time frame.

I am involved in 6 syndications all 50-100K buy ins over past 2 yrs. Covid/Texas ice storm has hurt projections but 8% distributions remain intact. 1/6 has done a cash out refi = 20% cash on cash return. None has sold thus no large windfall. Typical 4-6 yr project close out with 2-2.5x rate of return. Thus in 4-6 yrs, including distributions, projection at 5 yrs on a 100K investment would be 200-250K=100-150K profit thus putting it in the range of 15-20% annualized Rate of Return. vs 8-10% stock market ASSUMING everything goes as projected.

I bought a VRBO rental property 1 yr ago, 100K down on a 380K property, put in 50K renovastions thus 150K initial cash layout with 280K note. Covid has been a boom for anything recreational with 2021 rent projection @60K. I did a cash out Refi 9 months after purchase appraised @650K, did a 200K cash out refi with a 400K note. This is very similar to my 1/6 syndications that did a refi.

So over 1 year, my only syndication cash out refi has produced about 28% ROI and my VRBO has returned 133% cash ROI plus another 250K equity. Granted the 133% ROI is a a unicorn but helps to explain the differences. If Covid crashed the VRBO market, then the value could very well be less than 380K thus I could lose my 150K plus another 280K if the value went down to zero. If the syndication went to zero, I would lose at most 150K assuming the same level of investment but both are essentially impossible as land has value.

I am a proponent of diversification thus I do both. If someone held a gun to my head, I would always go with buying my own rental properties b/c I am a high risk/high reward investor and I like to have control/flexibility on my positions. The most significant point of investing IMO is the leverage that it allows in a low interest rate environment. If I needed to fund another purchase or pay taxes, I could borrow against my properties. I could not do this with syndication. Stock investing do not allow the same type of leverage or tax deductions. If the market allowed me to margin @ 3% with similar deductions/downside risks, you bet I would be all into margins.

TLDR - The profit/loss/process are the same but syndication has a lower risks/lower upside vs personal property investment with higher risks/higher upside.

 

[emergentmd]

Watch the education courses by tasty trade on YouTube. Those will be more helpful. They have a full beginners course as well

OK, you are now motivating me to read up on Options investing now that I have more free time.

 

[Old_Mil]

There is a ton of doom and gloom (and rightfully so) on the EM board.

I wanted to start a thread on financial independence, escape strategies, fellowships- what are our plans?

I'll start. I have a decent gig that I hope will be doable for the next two years. My goal will be to retire with 3-3.2 mm in the bank and a paid off house (done, although I hate my house). If gig continues, so will I, but I think I can walk away at that point fairly safely.

Looking to the future, I'd like to get involved in real estate investing, and would love to hear from others who are pursuing this.

I'll be honest with you, I think the golden age of real estate investment may be in the rear view mirror. Do you want to be the real estate investor holding the bag when .gov declares a rent and eviction holiday for renters?

I think the biggest danger to be avoided over the course of the next decade is the devaluation of the dollar. We are currently 28 trillion in debt. The powers that be intend to run 6 trillion in annual deficits, essentially doubling the national debt in the next four years. You can't do that without trashing the currency.

Then there is talk about the digital dollar. Multiple times in history different countries have "adjusted" fiat...give us 5 of your old pesos and we will give you 1 neuvo peso. Now add wokeness to that and you can see how this becomes a political tool. Black? You get a 1 to 1 exchange rate. Instant reparations. White but identify as female? 2 to 1. White female? 3 to 1. White or Asian male? 5 to 1. Oh, you're a rich doctor? 10 to 1.

Stop looking in the rear view mirror. What you see there has no bearing on what is on the road in front of you.

 

[bravotwozero]

I'll be honest with you, I think the golden age of real estate investment may be in the rear view mirror. Do you want to be the real estate investor holding the bag when .gov declares a rent and eviction holiday for renters?

I think the biggest danger to be avoided over the course of the next decade is the devaluation of the dollar. We are currently 28 trillion in debt. The powers that be intend to run 6 trillion in annual deficits, essentially doubling the national debt in the next four years. You can't do that without trashing the currency.

Then there is talk about the digital dollar. Multiple times in history different countries have "adjusted" fiat...give us 5 of your old pesos and we will give you 1 neuvo peso. Now add wokeness to that and you can see how this becomes a political tool. Black? You get a 1 to 1 exchange rate. Instant reparations. White but identify as female? 2 to 1. White female? 3 to 1. White or Asian male? 5 to 1. Oh, you're a rich doctor? 10 to 1.

Stop looking in the rear view mirror. What you see there has no bearing on what is on the road in front of you.

You've just made the perfect argument for buying real estate (and perhaps gold). Government can play whatever games with money, but assets like precious metals and land will retain their value, as they have done for thousands of years. The only thing keeping the Venezuelan government afloat right now is their gold mines, which they're able to sell to other countries.

 

[Old_Mil]

I'm not making a blanket criticism of real estate as an investment...just real estate in a specific political jurisdiction.

 

[GeneralVeers]

I'm not making a blanket criticism of real estate as an investment...just real estate in a specific political jurisdiction.

Exactly. I'm so glad my rentals were gone before this pandemic. Government illegally appropriated private property to serve as free housing without compensation. Monies should have been paid directly to landlords, not given to tenants. There's no reason that Progressive government in California or another state couldn't make eviction effectively illegal.

 

[Kryptocoin]

Real estate and commodities are good inflation hedges. If you don't want to be a landlord, buy REITs. TIPS is also another good one.


Or you can blow your money on casino investing: bitcoin, GME, AMC, YOLO, FOMO

 

[The White Coat Investor]

Man this thread is all over the place. Burnout to despair to gambling to options to individual stocks to real estate to cryptocurrencies and on and on and on.

Look, if you want to have a high income you need to go do something that a lot of people either can't do or won't do and that others find valuable. EM certainly qualifies and will continue to qualify for your entire career, even if bla bla bla bla happens and you only make $250K instead of $450K. But it is still work. (It's called work because they have to pay you to do it.)

If you want to be wealthy, you need to take a big chunk of that high income and invest it in a reasonable way for many years.

If you hate practicing medicine, get out and do something else. Life is too short.

I know lots of wealthy people. None of them got that way by hating their jobs and gambling their money.

My advice is find something you love to do and invest rather than gamble. You might be surprised how wealthy you are in a decade or two. I know I was.

 

[Pudortu]

Man this thread is all over the place. Burnout to despair to gambling to options to individual stocks to real estate to cryptocurrencies and on and on and on.

Look, if you want to have a high income you need to go do something that a lot of people either can't do or won't do and that others find valuable. EM certainly qualifies and will continue to qualify for your entire career, even if bla bla bla bla happens and you only make $250K instead of $450K. But it is still work. (It's called work because they have to pay you to do it.)

If you want to be wealthy, you need to take a big chunk of that high income and invest it in a reasonable way for many years.

If you hate practicing medicine, get out and do something else. Life is too short.

I know lots of wealthy people. None of them got that way by hating their jobs and gambling their money.

My advice is find something you love to do and invest rather than gamble. You might be surprised how wealthy you are in a decade or two. I know I was.

Hey WCI, long time fan and follower. I’ve not seen you comment on the acep job report recently put out. Was wondering what your thoughts were on the future of our specialty. Thanks for all you do for our community.

 

[Kryptocoin]

Medicine will become a solid middle class gig in the future unless you're some super surgical subspecialist. The writings are already on the wall. Not bad for those us that already have some nest egg. The problem is for the current premed and med students.

Why spend 10 yrs toiling away , only to make $200k with 300k in debt. Doesn't sound like a good deal, when PAs/NPs/CRNAs, 'doctor' of RT are earning close to that with none of the debt or sweat equity.

I recently became friends with my neighbor. Young guy , just turned 30. VP at a private equity firm. Makes 600 K per year. Hasn't even peaked in his career yet.

 

[BoardingDoc]

Medicine will become a solid middle class gig in the future unless you're some super surgical subspecialist. The writings are already on the wall. Not bad for those us that already have some nest egg. The problem is for the current premed and med students.

Why spend 10 yrs toiling away , only to make $200k with 300k in debt. Doesn't sound like a good deal, when PAs/NPs/CRNAs, 'doctor' of RT are earning close to that with none of the debt or sweat equity.

I recently became friends with my neighbor. Young guy , just turned 30. VP at a private equity firm. Makes 600 K per year. Hasn't even peaked in his career yet.

While I agree that the trend in medicine is rather aiming downward in a lot of ways, there are a few things to be wary of when comparing medicine to private equity / ibanking. I speak to this as someone who has several friends from college who went into ibanking. They almost all make more than I do now. They all also work a LOT more than I do.

The general track with ibanking is that you start as an analyst. You make around 90-140k yr depending on bonuses. You do this for maybe 3 years on average before getting promoted. During this time, working 100+ hr weeks is not rare. Working 80+ hr weeks is the norm.

Next you're an associate. Pay goes up to roughly doctor salary. 200-500k depending on how good you are and again on bonuses. Another 3+ yrs. Again, 80-100 hr weeks.

Hitting VP at 30 as in the above example is on the early end of things. Pay of 600k to start sounds about right. I don't really have any firsthand knowledge past this level as that's where most of my friends are now. Some of my friends make around 700. Some make over 1M. They all work waaaaaaaay more hours than I do. E.g. 7a-9p 5 days a week plus some time on the weekend is common for them.

On an hourly basis, I suspect I make as much if not more than they do. The catch is that they have much less ability to go down in hours in exchange for less money. They make it sound like it's pretty much an all or nothing kind of job.

Again, I'm not advocating medicine over finance. I just want to pull back the curtain a bit, as thinking that ibanking = cush lifestyle and tons of money is just a way to make yourself unhappy.

 

[namethatsmell]

While I agree that the trend in medicine is rather aiming downward in a lot of ways, there are a few things to be wary of when comparing medicine to private equity / ibanking. I speak to this as someone who has several friends from college who went into ibanking. They almost all make more than I do now. They all also work a LOT more than I do.

The general track with ibanking is that you start as an analyst. You make around 90-140k yr depending on bonuses. You do this for maybe 3 years on average before getting promoted. During this time, working 100+ hr weeks is not rare. Working 80+ hr weeks is the norm.

Next you're an associate. Pay goes up to roughly doctor salary. 200-500k depending on how good you are and again on bonuses. Another 3+ yrs. Again, 80-100 hr weeks.

Hitting VP at 30 as in the above example is on the early end of things. Pay of 600k to start sounds about right. I don't really have any firsthand knowledge past this level as that's where most of my friends are now. Some of my friends make around 700. Some make over 1M. They all work waaaaaaaay more hours than I do. E.g. 7a-9p 5 days a week plus some time on the weekend is common for them.

On an hourly basis, I suspect I make as much if not more than they do. The catch is that they have much less ability to go down in hours in exchange for less money. They make it sound like it's pretty much an all or nothing kind of job.

Again, I'm not advocating medicine over finance. I just want to pull back the curtain a bit, as thinking that ibanking = cush lifestyle and tons of money is just a way to make yourself unhappy.

My ibanking/PE buddies from college can put on a good act in the bar and at parties...but when the noise settles and I'm catching up with them one on one...eeesh are they dysthymic...

 

[Kryptocoin]

My ibanking/PE buddies from college can put on a good act in the bar and at parties...but when the noise settles and I'm catching up with them one on one...eeesh are they dysthymic...

Mo' money mo' problem. Although I will say physicians have one of the highest suicide rates (2x the general population). We are just better at hiding our sh**.

 

[Birdstrike]

I recently became friends with my neighbor. Young guy , just turned 30. VP at a private equity firm. Makes 600 K per year. Hasn't even peaked in his career yet.

Nothing wrong with that. If he's happy, then that's awesome.

 

[Birdstrike]

They all work waaaaaaaay more hours than I do. E.g. 7a-9p 5 days a week plus some time on the weekend is common for them.

I wouldn't be happy doing that. That's basically permanent residency for bankers. And it doesn't seem like the higher you go, the workload lessens all that much. But props to them. If they're happy, then, cool.

 

[Birdstrike]

There are many dark disappointing alley's in Medicine. But there are still many safe and well lit one's, too. If you can get through training owing less than 6 months salary in debt or less and choose a specialty or subspecialty where you find a reasonable stress level and good work life balance, then I think there's still a future in it.

That doesn't mean it's all perfect or that there won't be landmines to avoid. But it doesn't have to all be bad. You just can't buy into all the recruiting lies people tell the pre-meds and pre-specialty recruits.

 

[emergentmd]

Medicine is still the safest way to make 2-300K essentially guaranteed without 60+ hours. If you are really gifted, I say become an entrepreneur and start your own company when you are young. You have many years to fail before making it big.

If you are smart and hard working but not truly gifted (yeah I know most think they are but in reality most docs are not) then just looking at the money aspect, medicine is the safe bet.

For every VP making 600K at 30, there are 1000 who are happy slogging 60hrs+/wk making 100K regretting things. Same thing goes for engineers, bankers, accountants, etc.

I know a guy who is a partner with one of the big 3 accounting firms prob making more than I do but he travels 80% of the year. I would be miserable.

 

[Birdstrike]

If you are smart and hard working but not truly gifted (yeah I know most think they are but in reality most docs are not) then just looking at the money aspect, medicine is the safe bet.

Titans of industry? Rare, gifted.

Inventors of useful things? Rare, gifted.

Once-in-a-generation artistic geniuses? Rare, gifted.

Us?

Well...There's an awful lot of us. And we happen to know what we're good at (one thing) and what we're not good at (most things). But mostly, we figured out this formula and applied it:

Above average IQ + above average work ethic = Above average standard of living.

But I wouldn't call that "gifted." I'd call it practical.

 

[emergentmd]

Titans of industry? Rare, gifted.

Inventors of useful things? Rare, gifted

Once-in-a-genration artistic geniuses? Rare, gifted.


Us? Well...There's an awful lot of us. But we know what we're good at (one thing) and what we're not good at (most things). Above average IQ + above average work ethic = Above average income

I can attest that I an not a titan of anything. I am not ruthless. I am not a great motivator. I am not a great speaker. I do not want to sacrifice my family life working 80 hrs a wk or travel 40 wks a yr. Some of my friends laude their frequent flyer miles and free vacations but the price they pay is real. Nothing is free.

I do alot of things well but nothing I would say is exceptional. Thus I suspect my ceiling would be 2-300K being mid to upper management. I was a top 5 engineering grad from a top engineering school so maybe my ceiling could be higher. I still am no titan and would probably be making 2-300k working 60 hr weeks somewhere. Maybe I would have been lucky with a startup like google back in the day and sitting rich of shares but that would have been luck more than some special gift I had.

 

[Birdstrike]

My advice is find something you love to do and invest rather than gamble. You might be surprised how wealthy you are in a decade or two. I know I was.

Yep. You just keep plugging away, thinking it'll never amount to enough. But with consistency and patience plus the miracle of compounding interest, one day you look and realize you're dealing with a real amount of money. That's when the fun begins, because at this point, the snowball finally starts to gain greater and impressive size, with each revolution. But for about 10-15 years, it feels like you're getting nowhere.

 

[Kryptocoin]

Medicine is still the safest way to make 2-300K essentially guaranteed without 60+ hours. If you are really gifted, I say become an entrepreneur and start your own company when you are young. You have many years to fail before making it big.

If you are smart and hard working but not truly gifted (yeah I know most think they are but in reality most docs are not) then just looking at the money aspect, medicine is the safe bet.

For every VP making 600K at 30, there are 1000 who are happy slogging 60hrs+/wk making 100K regretting things. Same thing goes for engineers, bankers, accountants, etc.

I know a guy who is a partner with one of the big 3 accounting firms prob making more than I do but he travels 80% of the year. I would be miserable.

1000s of VPs making a 100k? Lol.
It takes 6-9yrs to become a VP. You must be thinking of an analyst. Analysts are 22 yr olds fresh from college. Not all it make to VP. Just like not all premeds make it to med school.

You know what to happens burnt out VPs? They become your boss in the corporate medicine.

 

[Mutt22]

White Coat Investor. What do you think of this book? Can you tell me why most modern stocks are different than a pyramid scheme?

 

[Porfirio]

My father-in-law is a VP in the City (NYC) and lives in Fairfield County (Greenwich, CT). Dude worked hard to get to his spot in life. But he never had $300k debt, worked an overnight, worked every holiday, work majority of weekends in a year, and best part - he got paid every step of the way. My medical school was his MBA that took less time and was cheaper. My residency training was his early days getting paid $100-$350k per year. His attending job was working Mon-Fri (rarely on Sat, never on a holiday but sometimes the night before) and he made $500-$750k a year. His SDG attending status was middle management working Mon-Fri (no weekends or holidays) making $800-$1.2 mil. Now he is VP and only thing left is CEO for him and he works Mon-Thurs making $1.3-$2mil+. Plenty of time off, and best part is his job can be remotely done.

F*ck medicine for $$$. Go to MBA school and do something with limitless potential, if you want $$$. I do medicine because I wanted to be a Doctor, however society/corporate admin/government are hacking away with a bone saw to what Doctor means these days.

TLDR: I will push my daughter to get a MBA instead of Meaningless. Degree.

 

[Splenda88]

My father-in-law is a VP in the City (NYC) and lives in Fairfield County (Greenwich, CT). Dude worked hard to get to his spot in life. But he never had $300k debt, worked an overnight, worked every holiday, work majority of weekends in a year, and best part - he got paid every step of the way. My medical school was his MBA that took less time and was cheaper. My residency training was his early days getting paid $100-$350k per year. His attending job was working Mon-Fri (rarely on Sat, never on a holiday but sometimes the night before) and he made $500-$750k a year. His SDG attending status was middle management working Mon-Fri (no weekends or holidays) making $800-$1.2 mil. Now he is VP and only thing left is CEO for him and he works Mon-Thurs making $1.3-$2mil+. Plenty of time off, and best part is his job can be remotely done.

F*ck medicine for $$$. Go to MBA school and do something with limitless potential, if you want $$$. I do medicine because I wanted to be a Doctor, however society/corporate admin/government are hacking away with a bone saw to what Doctor means these days.

TLDR: I will push my daughter to get a MBA instead of Meaningless. Degree.

Great for your in-law, but his success is atypical. I know many MBA who are realtors, car salesmen, working as middle manager job at Chase, Wells Fargo.

Medicine is not great but it is one the careers that guarantee you an upper middle class lifestyle (or arguably a wealthy lifestyle) with JOB SECURITY.

 

[emergentmd]

1000s of VPs making a 100k? Lol.
It takes 6-9yrs to become a VP. You must be thinking of an analyst. Analysts are 22 yr olds fresh from college. Not all it make to VP. Just like not all premeds make it to med school.

You know what to happens burnt out VPs? They become your boss in the corporate medicine.

ehhh those 100K slogging it never made it to VP. For every VP there are thousands that never made it past middle management.

 

[emergentmd]

My father-in-law is a VP in the City (NYC) and lives in Fairfield County (Greenwich, CT). Dude worked hard to get to his spot in life. But he never had $300k debt, worked an overnight, worked every holiday, work majority of weekends in a year, and best part - he got paid every step of the way. My medical school was his MBA that took less time and was cheaper. My residency training was his early days getting paid $100-$350k per year. His attending job was working Mon-Fri (rarely on Sat, never on a holiday but sometimes the night before) and he made $500-$750k a year. His SDG attending status was middle management working Mon-Fri (no weekends or holidays) making $800-$1.2 mil. Now he is VP and only thing left is CEO for him and he works Mon-Thurs making $1.3-$2mil+. Plenty of time off, and best part is his job can be remotely done.

F*ck medicine for $$$. Go to MBA school and do something with limitless potential, if you want $$$. I do medicine because I wanted to be a Doctor, however society/corporate admin/government are hacking away with a bone saw to what Doctor means these days.

TLDR: I will push my daughter to get a MBA instead of Meaningless. Degree.

For every 100 med student that goes into medical school, 95+ becomes doctors making 200K to well over 1M.

Foe every 100 going to get his MBA, I bet there maybe 1 that will become VP+ and make over 1M.

I know of about 10 with MBA and most make 1-200K and none makes over 500K/yr. I know of about 200 Full time ER docs in my career with intimate knowledge of their pay and I would say all 200 made over 350K/yr. 20% of them made over 500K/yr. 5% makes over 1M/yr. I know one that makes well over 3M/yr.

 

[Splenda88]

I can attest that I an not a titan of anything. I am not ruthless. I am not a great motivator. I am not a great speaker. I do not want to sacrifice my family life working 80 hrs a wk or travel 40 wks a yr. Some of my friends laude their frequent flyer miles and free vacations but the price they pay is real. Nothing is free.

I do alot of things well but nothing I would say is exceptional. Thus I suspect my ceiling would be 2-300K being mid to upper management. I was a top 5 engineering grad from a top engineering school so maybe my ceiling could be higher. I still am no titan and would probably be making 2-300k working 60 hr weeks somewhere. Maybe I would have been lucky with a startup like google back in the day and sitting rich of shares but that would have been luck more than some special gift I had.

👍 One needs just an above average IQ plus determination to become a doctor and start making 300k+/yr. I don't think there are that many fields out there that offer that kind of deal.

 

[Kryptocoin]

ehhh those 100K slogging it never made it to VP. For every VP there are thousands that never made it past middle management.

Again, stop. Your sentence doesn't even make sense. You don't know anything about the PE industry. It is okay not to know. But don't just make things up. Read BoardingDoc's earlier post for some insight.

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[Apollyon]

Your sentence doesn't even make sense.

I don't know if you are being hyperbolic, but, if not, at least to me, this is completely untrue. It's clear to me.

 

[LibBum]

What is you have an MD and an MBA? Profitable career routes? 🤔

 

[emergentmd]

Again, stop. Your sentence doesn't even make sense. You don't know anything about the PE industry. It is okay not to know. But don't just make things up. Read BoardingDoc's earlier post for some insight.

I think someone needs reading comprehension and a pacifier. I never said I was some expert on the PE industry and from your statements you know much less. Using another anonymous poster as a reference especially when misinterpreting what was said is laughably ignorant.

Let me quote what you said, "I recently became friends with my neighbor. Young guy , just turned 30. VP at a private equity firm. Makes 600 K per year. Hasn't even peaked in his career yet."

These are strawman arguments that is used all the time and have no relevance. I know unicorn lawyers who make millions a year but no one is dumb enough to recommend law as a degree to make millions. You are using a unicorn example and likely made it all up to try and prove your point that medicine is not worth it.

I'm not going to respond to your drivel anymore b/c you will make up some factitious friend that happened to be a millionaire working an hr a day because they traded GME so why go into medicine when you can FIRE putting money in GME or AMC.

 

[Porfirio]

I think someone needs reading comprehension and a pacifier. I never said I was some expert on the PE industry and from your statements you know much less. Using another anonymous poster as a reference especially when misinterpreting what was said is laughably ignorant.

Let me quote what you said, "I recently became friends with my neighbor. Young guy , just turned 30. VP at a private equity firm. Makes 600 K per year. Hasn't even peaked in his career yet."

These are strawman arguments that is used all the time and have no relevance. I know unicorn lawyers who make millions a year but no one is dumb enough to recommend law as a degree to make millions. You are using a unicorn example and likely made it all up to try and prove your point that medicine is not worth it.

I'm not going to respond to your drivel anymore b/c you will make up some factitious friend that happened to be a millionaire working an hr a day because they traded GME so why go into medicine when you can FIRE putting money in GME or AMC.

How many million middle management and VP jobs do you think are out there?

We are a nation of 320-330 million people, right? That’s a lot of bees to manage. Because there are what one million doctors in the US? We should compare the top 1 million middle management and VP jobs to being a physician. I would LOVE to see that data.

 

[namethatsmell]

Not sure exactly what the point of this spat is about...seems like you guys are talking around each other...

Probably safe to say that the floor for the average MBA is far less than the average MD.

Probably safe to say that the ceiling for an MBA is far higher, on average, than for an MD.

Probably safe to say that physicians have better job security than MBAs...yes, even despite the doom and gloom on here. At the end of the day, docs provide a more tangible service necessary for human survival.

Probably safe to say that MDs and MBAs who have are entrepreneurial will likely out-earn their non-entrepreneurial counterparts.

 

[BoardingDoc]

I wouldn't be happy doing that. That's basically permanent residency for bankers. And it doesn't seem like the higher you go, the workload lessens all that much. But props to them. If they're happy, then, cool.

Some of them are happy. Some of them very much aren't. The last time I saw one of them, he had just bought a porsche GTS carrera. He didn't seem happy with it. I asked him why he bought it and he basically said that he was thinking of buying a house --> ultimately didn't --> had a bunch of money sitting in his bank account in cash that he was going to use for a down payment --> decided to spend some of it on a new car since he "didn't need to use the cash now."

The car didn't make him happy. I would certainly like to be able to drop 130-150k on a car on a whim, but I wouldn't trade places with him. My hope is that he retires soon. As long as he stops buying boredom Porsches, that should be easily doable.

 

[Birdstrike]

The last time I saw one of them, he had just bought a porsche GTS carrera. He didn't seem happy with it.

Omg, that is funny.

 

[KnuxNole]

The thing about finance is the work is SO. [language removed]. BORING. with no internal value(other than a paycheck)

I would want to quit in less than a year, regardless of money, with not wanting to slave away.

 

[emergentmd]

OK, just did a google search b/c I have no real clue if MBAs make 500K a yr but my spidey senses tell me otherwise. To out pace the avg doc, you have to get to VP and I doubt there are many VPs in any company.

TOP salaried MBAs - Investment Banking

• Analyst - First Year: $70,000 - $150,000
• Analyst - Third Year: $120,000 - $350,000
• Associate - First Year: $150,000 - $350,000
• Associate - Third Year: $250,000 - $500,000
• Vice President: $350,000 - $1,500,000

Sounds like medicine is way financially safer

 

[sloh]

Some of them are happy. Some of them very much aren't. The last time I saw one of them, he had just bought a porsche GTS carrera. He didn't seem happy with it. I asked him why he bought it and he basically said that he was thinking of buying a house --> ultimately didn't --> had a bunch of money sitting in his bank account in cash that he was going to use for a down payment --> decided to spend some of it on a new car since he "didn't need to use the cash now."

The car didn't make him happy. I would certainly like to be able to drop 130-150k on a car on a whim, but I wouldn't trade places with him. My hope is that he retires soon. As long as he stops buying boredom Porsches, that should be easily doable.

It’s because it wasn’t a 911 Turbo S. Go big or go home!

On a more serious note, yes money is important especially to the extent it gives us freedom. But it should be freedom to pursue the most meaningful goals. Can’t just be a life of hedonism and materialism.

 

[Porfirio]

OK, just did a google search b/c I have no real clue if MBAs make 500K a yr but my spidey senses tell me otherwise. To out pace the avg doc, you have to get to VP and I doubt there are many VPs in any company.

TOP salaried MBAs - Investment Banking

• Analyst - First Year: $70,000 - $150,000
• Analyst - Third Year: $120,000 - $350,000
• Associate - First Year: $150,000 - $350,000
• Associate - Third Year: $250,000 - $500,000
• Vice President: $350,000 - $1,500,000

Sounds like medicine is way financially safer

These guys jump jobs every 2-4 years to grab the next rung on the ladder. Beautiful part is the sign on bonus, performance bonus, free health/dental insurance, 401k (etc) matching/fill up, expense accounts, corporate perks. Hell, my father-in-law got free loans for car/housing (interest free) from GMAC in the 1990s when home loans were like 7-9%.

You are right that job security is an issue. The guys that climb never have this problem because they are always looking for the next thing. Plus they have severance packages (sometimes a golden parachute).

 

[Apollyon]

Can’t just be a life of hedonism and materialism.

Why not? After all, no one gets out of here alive, and, in 100 years, who will even remember any of us?

 

[bravotwozero]

Why not? After all, no one gets out of here alive, and, in 100 years, who will even remember any of us?

Is that the kind of life you live?

 

[Apollyon]

Is that the kind of life you live?

I would. A life of denial and voluntary suffering doesn't sound fulfilling to me, at all. Prostration and wearing a hair shirt is to what end?

 

[sloh]

I would. A life of denial and voluntary suffering doesn't sound fulfilling to me, at all. Prostration and wearing a hair shirt is to what end?

I wouldn't really categorize hobbies (sports, instruments, art, etc), passions, goals you find meaningful, nurturing relationships, raising a family/kids as denial and voluntary suffering though.

 

[Apollyon]

I got a grand total of $8 grand from both parents after they died. My wife and I have no kids. To leave any estate is foolish, but, even more foolish is for any others to expect an inheritance.