EM financial compensation

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golfislife

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Hi! I'm currently an MSIII torn between a career in EM and ortho. I appreciate the lifestyle inherent to EM, however love the ortho pathology. Also, I realize that when residency is over I would like to be able to live somewhat comfortably....not extravagantly....while I pay my loans back. Can anyone provide some feedback as far as the potential compensation for EM physicians following residency? Thank you all for your thoughts.

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ER docs don't make as much as ortho guys, but come on... if you can't survive on making 110-140/hour as an ER doc, then you have some serious self-control issues. They make more money, we have more time to spend ours.
 
Another important thing to consider about physician income is the number of hours required to work for it. In this sense, comparison across fields is not directly comparable.

For example, an orthopedist might conservatively make 50% more than an emergency physician. However, in order to earn that amount of money he or she might have to work 75% more hours in a given week.
 
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A point that we beat to death, and that we probably SHOULD beat to death, is that the "lifestyle" of EM isnt without flaws, either. Flipping your sleep schedule around all the time hurts.

Pick the work you like and choose that.
 
I hope there are others facets of EM that you find appealing, because if "lifestyle" is it...I'd suggest you go ahead and pursue Ortho, since you mentioned that you like the subject matter.
 
Sometimes I feel this forum is a lot like that movie Groundhog day... except there is no Bill Murray here.

"I was in the Virgin Islands once. I met a girl. We ate lobster and drank pina coladas. At sunset we made love like sea otters. *That* was a pretty good day. Why couldn't I get that day over and over and over?"
 
I was just thinking about that movie yesterday...:laugh:

Me too. In CVS last night, I hear Sonny and Cher singing "I GOT YOU BABE". Instantly envisioned Bill Murray waking up overly pissed at his life. Hilarious.
 
Me too. In CVS last night, I hear Sonny and Cher singing "I GOT YOU BABE". Instantly envisioned Bill Murray waking up overly pissed at his life. Hilarious.

Bill Murray knows how make a good movie :) I'm also a big fan of "What About Bob?" He's so annoying in it -- just perfect!
 
ER docs don't make as much as ortho guys, but come on... if you can't survive on making 110-140/hour as an ER doc, then you have some serious self-control issues. They make more money, we have more time to spend ours.

$110-$140....Dude that sucks. EM Mds here in Baton Rouge are making 150-175/hour......and you get LSU games and an insane amount of beautiful woman. Yes, they keep all the beer commercial women here!
 
When you guys talk about money, is that before or after malpractice insurance and any other expenses?
 
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I've seen ads in Annals of EM for up to $205/hr down in Arizona and New Mexico. The workload and environment sounds like it SUCKS, though.
 
:eek:

I work for free. Since I went into medicine ONLY to help the poor and elderly, that is ok by me. I get to eat the left-over food from the patient trays and sleep in the obs area (the staff are great and reserve a bed in the corner for me), so my expeditures are little. I sell blood every few days to pay my loans and insurance, but am otherwise living the big life!!!
 
Out of feeble-minded premed curiosity, are there opportunities in EM to work even less hours than the standard 12-12's/month after residency?

At $125/hr (lowball) * 24hrs/week * 48 weeks/year = $144,000/year.

Working 3 eight hour shifts a week with a month vacation each year doesn't sound too shabby. Please excuse this post if this is completely ridiculous. I'm not even seriously thinking about specialties yet but these numbers are absurd.
 
One of my seniors was happy, HAPPY!!! to get a job in the area making around 175k a year. And I thought you have to be f'in kidding me. 11 years of higher education and training a sackload of loans along with the stress and litigation risk for 175!!!! I wanted to choke him for taking that job.

I swear, for being the smartest kids in class, we as physicians are pretty dumb. We are so focused on the intellectual demands of our pursuits that we have at this point fallen on our own swords. We have no control over the health care system, our patients, our earnings even our freaking medical decisions (6hr ABX, med reconciliation, EMTALA) Face it people, we are a cog in the wheel.

At this point I'm thinking I may take my skills across the border. Has anyone looked into Canadia or Europe? Is the grass any greener?
 
On another important matter...

Speed, do you have an STI (not a sexually transmitted infection for those of you that adopted the new nomenclature)??
 
One of my seniors was happy, HAPPY!!! to get a job in the area making around 175k a year. And I thought you have to be f'in kidding me. 11 years of higher education and training a sackload of loans along with the stress and litigation risk for 175!!!! I wanted to choke him for taking that job.

I swear, for being the smartest kids in class, we as physicians are pretty dumb. We are so focused on the intellectual demands of our pursuits that we have at this point fallen on our own swords. We have no control over the health care system, our patients, our earnings even our freaking medical decisions (6hr ABX, med reconciliation, EMTALA) Face it people, we are a cog in the wheel.

At this point I'm thinking I may take my skills across the border. Has anyone looked into Canadia or Europe? Is the grass any greener?

Yeah man Europe is way better, especially in Russia, we have rough here in the states. I mean the pay isn't great but at least you won't be a cog in this wheel!

http://archives.chicagotribune.com/2008/feb/26/news/chi-russia_side_tuesdayfeb26
 
Bill Murray knows how make a good movie :) I'm also a big fan of "What About Bob?" He's so annoying in it -- just perfect!

I'm SAILING!!!!!


Take care,
Jeff
 
On another important matter...

Speed, do you have an STI (not a sexually transmitted infection for those of you that adopted the new nomenclature)??
No, but when I get a real job I am going to buy a Baja truck and take all the stickers off, tint the windows, put some stock lights on it and drive it around on the street.
 
I was like you, I like "ortho pathology" too. What I didn't like was potentially 100+ hr. weeks for the rest of my life, call, and to be honest even though I like working with my hands and the surgery part, i really don't get that excited about which kind of screw with what thread-count to use and why. ER you get more of other things.
 
In Europe, they don't have as many resources. At the junior levels though, they can make a crapload of money. Working in Europe last year as a junior house officer, I was making in the 80-90k range, being paid overtime with 6 weeks of holidays. Here, you can make more as an attending, but I really don't think the pay scale is that much different. Socialized medicine or a half-way system, clogs resources...patients have to wait 2 years for a CT, you don't have as much available to you. And beds are clogged with a lot of long term care patients waiting for nursing home placements and such. This can be a serious pain. And in some places, especially surgical specialties, you will work 100+ weeks with uncapped call (that means you go on call and are there til you finish your work the next day. You can go for 36-40 hours with no sleep). Bottom line is, no matter where you go, there's bureaucratic and political bulls*** everywhere.
 
Oh, not to mention that some places (ie. Germany) do not have formal ER settings with ER as its own specialty. I've seriously been thinking about moving to Australia. Not as much pay, but less work and beaches within 10 minutes walk! :)
 
I'm considering New Zealand. They seem to flood my mailbox with want ads. I mean, with all those sheep, what will a man do with all the free time?


One of our guys just took a >300K academic position right out of residency. It's in the Midwest though.
 
As others have posted ad nauseum...We as doctors tend to dramatically underestimate how valuable a commodity we are. I am almost two years out from residency and have gotten a little perspective on this issue.

When I was interviewing I wanted to stay in a particular part of the country (mid-Atlantic) so my experience is limited to this area.
I began interviewing pretty early because I wanted to make sure I had the chance to see various practices. The variation in remuneration, practices, groups, styles, etc. astounded me. It's actually kinda cool when you think about it but it does mean that newly minted EM docs have to do some serious homework and some serious soul searching.

In my third year, one of my buddies from residency and I (along with our wives) went to one of those lavish recruitment dinners the big managed groups put out. The spread was amazing with a brief lecture to highlight the group's strengths, etc, etc. They began telling us how much $ they would front us...30k sign-on bonus, 8k for moving, 10k per year for exenses (phone, computer, pda, board fees, etc.). It all sounded amazing. Quaint beach town, lots of friendly EM docs, all EM trained, and...$95/hr for 12-14 12 hr shifts/mo. Well, the hourly rate is kinda low but with all of these perqs and an decent benefit package it seemed like a pretty good job. So we both went to interview. They rolled out the red carpet, man. Beautiful, expensive dinner, gift baskets for our wives, new hospital, idyllic southern coastal town.

Well you know where this is going, right? My buddy took the job and walked into the biggest snake pit of his life. No one mentioned the complete lack of support or the fact that the group had lost 4-5 docs that year. No one mentioned that the new recruits were now working 16-18 12/hr shifts/mo and because that ED saw it's volume triple over the past 2 years those shifts were really 15-16 hrs long. No one mentioned that the groups director was a complete charlatan. He was replaced within 6 months but by then more docs had jumped ship, so everyone was working more and more. So here is my friend stuck in a cute small southern town with a pretty hefty mortgage and school age children. What can you do? You can't just bail, because you signed a contract and that lovely signing bonus is now an albatross, not to mention your new car (come on, who didn't buy a new car when they graduated?) and you new mortgage.

Luckily for me I wanted to stay a little closer to home so I didn't really consider the above position. So I kept looking. I found a small democratic group on the outskirts of our geographic radius and was immediately impressed. Great salary, partners were pulling in ~300k/yr. Stable, democratic group. Busy place but good back-up, close referral tertiary care, PCI in house. We went to the interview and loved the whole gang. Young, dynamic group, had a great time at the informal dinner, got chided for not drinking enough. You get the picture. We're thinking about signing the contract when I get a call from the director, who tells me the hospital's reviewing our contract so I can't offer any positions right now. "This is just a formality", he says, "give me a month and we'll get you down here. BTW we're going on a fishing trip next month and we want you and your wife to come along". Next month the group is disbanded and completely reorganized and are now hospital employees. Still a pretty good gig but kinda hard to jump in while the place is still in flux...so I keep looking.

Multiple sucky interviews ensue. I look and find an ad in one of the journals. I call, talk to the recruiting partner who seems pretty funny. We arrange an interview. I am offered a lunch interview and a tour. We go to a dumpy Chineses restaurant but there are 12 partners there. The group is laughing, insulting each other, completely at ease. I ask about a signing bonus, they laugh. I ask about moving expenses, they say "sure, we'll take em out of your first check". I ask about coverage, back up, democracy. The laughing stops and they say if you work here you work the same schedule, nights, weekends as the director. You will live within a certain radius of our hospital becuase we want our docs for the long haul and we want you to put down roots in the community. Other than that it's a fee for service model and you collect what you collect. Our director is also an MBA and our billing, coding is designed so we max our collections and you are reimbursed as well as can be. Busy, busy place but excellent back up. Have to transfer PICU only. During my interview I saw the books, they made sure I saw them. Phenomenal income potential. Avg partner salary was >400K. They work 14-16 8's a month. Benefits are up to you, you can pick the group's plan or go on your own. Group is a mix of wildly divergent docs. All of them are committed to providing excellent care in a democratic FFS model. Busy place, lots of sick people but wonderful support from hospital and ancillary staff.

Any way I signed on and really lucked into one of the best jobs around in my opinion. My buddy finally left that first job and is now part of our group.
This isn't meant as a recruiting tool (although we are looking for 1-2 docs) I swear but just as a cautionary tale to really look at a group before committing. FFS is great but so are big, managed groups (for some), independent contracting, locums, etc. You have all worked extremely hard to make yourselves so marketable. Take advantage of your skills and find the best job you can. Ask hard questions, don't tolerate evasive answers. Really grill the partners about what it's like to work there. Try to observe the ED in action if possible. Find out where the $'s going. Too many groups have an old guard of fat cat EM docs skimming off the top. That shouldn't, in my opinion, be allowed to persist.

Man, this was long. I'm just coming off nights and am still fired up from my shift. Again, if the tone of this is all wrong I apologize, just one man's opinion.
Good luck, feel free to PM me if you have any q's.
 
As others have posted ad nauseum...We as doctors tend to dramatically underestimate how valuable a commodity we are. I am almost two years out from residency and have gotten a little perspective on this issue.
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Thanks for the time and effort in writing this...
 
My advice would be, that the more money a group spends to recruit you, the more skeptical you should be of that job, and the more questions you should asked.

I interviewed for three jobs in very different parts of the country. One job picked me up in a limo at the airport, put me up in a nice hotel, paid everything and even gave me a free polo shirt.

The job I ended up taking paid no travel expenses, and gave me a free lunch at the hospital cafeteria.
 
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