Email the acgme regarding new changes!

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fozzy40

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Hey Gang,

You guys should check this out if you are thinking about applying for an ACGME residency or fellowship. Essentially, ACGME specialties that require a preliminary internship year prior entering residency (i.e. PM&R, radiology, dermatology, anesthesiology, etc.) will no longer accept osteopathic internships to fulfill the requirement.

As of 2014, ACGME accredited internships will only be accepted if you plan on applying for an ACGME accredited residency program.

As of 2015, ACGME accredited fellowships will also have the same requirement.

Check out the website: http://www.acgme.org/acWebsite/reviewComment/rev_programReq_Index.asp

They are accepting comments at [email protected] until November 23, 2011. Let your comments be heard!

I'm waiting to hear back from the AOA regarding this issue.

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Hmmm...

Don't certain states require a D.O. to complete an osteopathic-based internship year in order to practice in that particular state? Would this effectively limit one to an AOA residency if the individual has plans of practicing medicine at some point in said state? How would this affect dually-accredited programs? Do you think this is a way to reestablish the M.D. - D.O. boundaries that have somewhat dissolved over the years?

I'm fairly new to all of the political and bureaucratic happenings in the world of medicine, and when I read the ACGME site I realized that I really need to keep myself informed... especially as a future osteopathic medical student. It appears as if we have "extra" obstacles to transverse, albeit during a journey of personal choice (certainly we are not forced into it).

I'm sure many would admit that they are attracted to D.O. institutions because of that prospect to earn an ACGME residency someday and tend to think of AOA as second best, if an option at all. For those in certain areas or those who are set on an AOA residency, this proposal would not make much of a difference, but in areas like PA this may make things a bit trickier... or not. I'm not sure.

Does anyone care to elaborate?
 
There are 5 states that require you to complete an osteopathic internship to practice: West Virginia, Michigan, Florida, Oklahoma, and Pennsylvania.

These changes will affect you if you want to go enter either an ACGME residency that requires completion of a separate internship prior to entering residency i.e. PM&R, anesthesiology, dermatology, etc. This will also effect you if you are applying for an ACGME accredited fellowship.
 
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There are 5 states that require you to complete an osteopathic internship to practice: West Virginia, Michigan, Florida, Oklahoma, and Pennsylvania.

These changes will affect you if you want to go enter either an ACGME residency that requires completion of a separate internship prior to entering residency i.e. PM&R, anesthesiology, dermatology, etc. This will also effect you if you are applying for an ACGME accredited fellowship.

So let's say I did an ACGME internal medicine residency. Does that mean I can't practice in those states?
 
The impact on residency here is limited, to be honest. Im sure there exists numbers of people who go into an AOA TRI (traditional rotating internship) instead of a ACGME IY (Intern year, or whatever they call it), I am also sure the people who make this switch are small in percent. This is especially true when one of the big 5 states, PA, made it simpler to get exemptions to the AOA rule and the other 4 are known for giving out exemptions for various silly reasons like "wanted to be near family and no AOA residencies near family in state". Im sure some people will get messed up a bit by this, but the fact of the matter is that, for the most part, ACGME residencies already match up their internship year with their PGY2+ years, so this whole issue is moot for them.

Where this does become an issue is the fellowships, which would, by the wording, require an ACGME residency to enter an ACGME fellowship. Thats just plain a crappy one. I'd like to see if they decide to stick with that wording or not. Off the top of my head, this may also be a dissuasion to the 3 DOs in AUA urology (since it is under the purview of the ACGME). Urology requires 1-2 years of gen surg before you can apply, and while those 3 DOs would probably still match into an ACGME gen surg, if they hadn't before then this would bar them from the AUA sites
 
First it is only 4 states. WVa no longer requires a DO internship. The states that require an internship do not give out the exemptions. The AOA does based upon resolution 42 and you need to complete certain things to qualify for approval like a month of family medicine and ER. The PA osteopathic association is trying very hard to compel the state osteopathic board to stop taking resolution 42. As of now the state board is accepting resolution 42. The PA osteopathic association will not help you in any way get approval of resolution 42 like giving you an attendance certification for any of the state meetings. This is led by PCOM and LECOM. they were some of the big players who had the automatic exemption (resolution 24?) repealed by the AOA earlier this year. It took me awhile to figure out that the medical association does not have authority over the state board of medicine. The association is constantly passing resolutions to ban the use of resolution 42.
 
The impact on residency here is limited, to be honest. Im sure there exists numbers of people who go into an AOA TRI (traditional rotating internship) instead of a ACGME IY (Intern year, or whatever they call it), I am also sure the people who make this switch are small in percent. This is especially true when one of the big 5 states, PA, made it simpler to get exemptions to the AOA rule and the other 4 are known for giving out exemptions for various silly reasons like "wanted to be near family and no AOA residencies near family in state". Im sure some people will get messed up a bit by this, but the fact of the matter is that, for the most part, ACGME residencies already match up their internship year with their PGY2+ years, so this whole issue is moot for them.

Where this does become an issue is the fellowships, which would, by the wording, require an ACGME residency to enter an ACGME fellowship. Thats just plain a crappy one. I'd like to see if they decide to stick with that wording or not. Off the top of my head, this may also be a dissuasion to the 3 DOs in AUA urology (since it is under the purview of the ACGME). Urology requires 1-2 years of gen surg before you can apply, and while those 3 DOs would probably still match into an ACGME gen surg, if they hadn't before then this would bar them from the AUA sites

I agree with you that this impact is limited for the immediate future. There are several factors that go into choosing a residency (there are volumes in the literature) and it's not always a decision "to switch." Often times it's a geographical issue that may make people choose an ACGME program vs. an AOA one.

However, if you are in a small specialty like mine (PM&R) where there are only 4 (previously 3 prior to this year) osteopathic PM&R residencies vs. 77 allopathic ones you better care about this issue. In addition, like you said, the fellowship issue is huge. I guess you better be sure that you don't want to do a fellowship and/or make sure that there is an osteopathic option for you in the future otherwise.

This has huge implications...it's just not apparent yet.
 
is this not the same as the AOA not allowing ACGME trained interns to do an AOA residency of any kind?
 
Care to elaborate on this? I'm just curious about the whole situation.

An example of how this could be a problem and directly hurt me if I wouldn't be slipping through before this policy takes effect:

I did an AOA internship
I'm in an AGCME PM&R Residency
I will be applying for AGCME Pain Fellowships

This policy would bar me from applying for the fellowships I want....
 
An example of how this could be a problem and directly hurt me if I wouldn't be slipping through before this policy takes effect:

I did an AOA internship
I'm in an AGCME PM&R Residency
I will be applying for AGCME Pain Fellowships

This policy would bar me from applying for the fellowships I want....

I'm not sure this is right. It will prevent you from getting into the residency, but if you do an ACGME residency you will be eligible for fellowship regardless of internship. Now, you can argue that with an osteopathic intern year you won't get into the ACGME residency in the first place, and that would be right, but it isn't your example above.
 
Ok so I am confused with how resolution 42 works with applying to allo programs. Let's say I wanted to apply to an allo EM program, how would having to do an AOA internship effect my ability to do so?
 
Ok so I am confused with how resolution 42 works with applying to allo programs. Let's say I wanted to apply to an allo EM program, how would having to do an AOA internship effect my ability to do so?



Resolution 42 is basically the AOA saying that your ACGME PGY1 year is "AOA approved" and thus you are eligible for licensure in the 4 states that require "AOA approved intern year".

There are some residencies that require a preliminary or transitional intern year before you start that specific residency (at PGY2 level). Some anesthesia residencies start at a PGY2 level and want you to do a prelim/transitional intern year. Dermatology, Radiology, Radiation Oncology, PM&R, Ophtho, etc. starts at a PGY2 level.

In the past (and dependant on the specialty boards such as American Board of Radiology or American Board of PM&R), your osteopathic internship would count towards the intern year requirement so you can jump right into PGY2 residency (say in an ACGME radiology residency). By doing an osteopathic intern year, you automatically are eligible for licensure in the 4 states that requires it without having to go through the process of Resolution 42.

Some boards require an ACGME PGY1 year (such as American Board of Dermatology). In that case, if you do an osteopathic intern year, that does not count so you will have to repeat your intern year at an ACGME PGY1 program (such as prelim medicine, prelim surgery, prelim peds, or transitional year). Now if you don't do an osteopathic intern year but go straight into an ACGME PGY1 year, you will need to petition the AOA (via resolution 42) to review your ACGME PGY1 year for "AOA approval". If your petition is granted, then your ACGME PGY1 year is also "AOA approved" and you are eligible for licensure in the 4 states that requires it. If it is not approve, OR you don't petition for approval, then the only consequence is that you can't be licensed in those 4 states.


This new ACGME proposed rule will affect those who want to do an osteopathic internship and then go straight into a PGY2 ACGME progam. It basically excludes any ACGME program from recognizing your AOA internship. So if you do an osteopathic internship, you have to repeat an ACGME PGY1 internship before you are eligible for that same PGY2 ACGME spot (even if the specialty board recognizes your AOA internship).

In addition, in the past, residents who did an AOA residency and then an ACGME fellowship (for example, an AOA residency in internal medicine, then an ACGME fellowship in Cardiology) would not have been eligible for board certification in cardiology through ABIM, but could have petition the AOA to approve the ACGME Fellowship as "AOA-approved fellowship" and taken the AOBIM (american osteopathic board of internal medicine) Cardiology Boards and be board certified via AOBIM pathway. With this new proposal, that resident would no longer be eligible for the ACGME Fellowship.

This new proposal will not affect those who attend dual accredited intern year program since by default you automatically have completed an ACGME-approved PGY1 year as well as an AOA-approved PGY1 year.


In essence, if this proposal is approved, it will affect two types of applicants
1. applicants interested in residencies that start at the PGY2 level, and are interested in doing an osteopathic internship to satisfy the PGY1 requirement and maintain eligibility for licensure in the 4 states. Essentially those applicants will now have to do an ACGME transitional or prelim internship and go through Resolution 42 if they want to practice in the 4 states that requires AOA approved intern year. (or you can do an osteopathic internship, then do a prelim PGY1 internship, followed by residency)

2. applicants interested in an ACGME fellowship but are currently doing an osteopathic residency.
 
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It appears like the AOA does not recognize ACGME training except with a petition and active AOA membership (for which the AOA collects membership dues see: http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-aoa/about/join/Pages/dues-quick-sheet.aspx and http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-a...ining/Pages/trainee-services-application.aspx ) or through dual accreditation which costs some $$$.
So why should the ACGME recognize AOA training without getting petitions and fees?.
There is an old saying "If you want to dance then you got to pay the fiddler".
 
It is only 3 states. Oklahoma doesnt require an osteopathic internship to practice. You are eligible for licensure if you have completed an acgme residency or completed a PGY1 year that satisfies their requirements.
 
I feel like this action by the ACGME has been a long time coming. I don't disagree with it, although I recognize the difficulty it is going to present to osteopathic graduates who want to do ACGME advanced residencies.

The AOA has been getting away with the "separate but equal" nonsense for some time when it comes to the quality of the traditional rotating internships (their residencies too, but that is a different discussion). It seems that the he ACGME is putting their foot down and acknowledging formally that they perceive the osteopathic TRI as inferior to an ACGME TY/prelim year.

You can blame the AOA for this happening. If they spent more time improving the quality of osteopathic GME rather than green-lighting new schools and residencies of dubious quality, this might have been avoided.
 
My question is what happens to us military folks, they are only ACGME and not AOA accredited. Do we automatically get a waiver?

Military folks automatically get a waiver...always have
 
The bigger issue, imo, and as stated, is the fellowships. I understand the ACGME not wanting to accept AOA internship years. I don't like it, but I understand that quality varies (among both AOA and ACGME and dually accredited programs) and the ACGME has no control and little influence over correcting the AOA programs.

What I do care about is the rule regarding fellowships. If one ends up doing an AOA residency, becomes the head of their field as an attending, and decides to do a fellowship later in life, they're screwed because of this rule. Same goes for someone doing an AOA residency who wants to do a fellowship right after finishing residency. Call me silly, but I don't see how a sub par internship should reflect on a resident qualified enough to get into a cardiology fellowship. It seems like whoever wrote this rule took a defendable idea and expanded it to the point that it disenfranchises DOs and hurts medicine as a whole by restricting well qualified applicants who may have potentially had a sub par internship.
 
The bigger issue, imo, and as stated, is the fellowships. I understand the ACGME not wanting to accept AOA internship years. I don't like it, but I understand that quality varies (among both AOA and ACGME and dually accredited programs) and the ACGME has no control and little influence over correcting the AOA programs.

What I do care about is the rule regarding fellowships. If one ends up doing an AOA residency, becomes the head of their field as an attending, and decides to do a fellowship later in life, they're screwed because of this rule. Same goes for someone doing an AOA residency who wants to do a fellowship right after finishing residency. Call me silly, but I don't see how a sub par internship should reflect on a resident qualified enough to get into a cardiology fellowship. It seems like whoever wrote this rule took a defendable idea and expanded it to the point that it disenfranchises DOs and hurts medicine as a whole by restricting well qualified applicants who may have potentially had a sub par internship.

They're not saying you can't do an ACGME fellowship just because of your intern year, they're saying you can't do the fellowship because they don't trust the quality of entire AOA residencies
 
It seems like whoever wrote this rule took a defendable idea and expanded it to the point that it disenfranchises DOs and hurts medicine as a whole by restricting well qualified applicants who may have potentially had a sub par internship.

Disenfranchises DOs? When did DOs get the right to apply to ACGME fellowships?
 
Disenfranchises DOs? When did DOs get the right to apply to ACGME fellowships?

Every year, aren't there a generous handful of DOs who undergo non dually accredited AOA residencies and apply (and get into) ACGME fellowships?

I wouldn't argue this is a right's issue, but, it seems a tad irresponsible, and perhaps monopolistic, to ban otherwise well qualified applicants from ACGME fellowships simply because they didn't complete an ACGME or non dually accredited residency.

Though, to expand on El Dooderino's point, I see why this rule would be put in place. I just think we're putting the cart before the horse by banning DOs who undergo non dually accredited residencies from these fellowships simply for not knowing the quality of the specific AOA residency.

There are plenty of AOA residencies that are better funded, better located, and provide better training than ACGME residencies, and while on the whole I'd argue ACGME>AOA, we risk losing qualified applicants by expanding too far on these generalizations.
 
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My question is what happens to us military folks, they are only ACGME and not AOA accredited. Do we automatically get a waiver?

Military folks automatically get a waiver...always have

No, they don't. You still have to file for resolution 42, but there is a specific-to-military-internship form you use to do so (available on the AOA website). Techinically you still have the same requirements to fulfill resolution 42, but it is said that it is uncommon for it to be denied-though I have never asked how many resolution 42 requests from .mil folk were denied.
 
Well it appears that I'm barred from doing a fellowship after I finish residency. I guess that's what I get for ranking an advanced anesthesiology program at the top of my list without applying to ACGME prelim programs. I didn't wan't to have to move twice or acquire more interview expenses because I had an AOA internship spot at my clerkship site available in my back pocket.

I'm currently an intern at an AOA TR internship and I will be starting anesthesiology at an ACGME program in 2012. I was planning on doing a fellowship starting in 2015, the same year this policy goes into affect. Had I known this last Feb, I would have ranked 12+ categorical programs higher than this advanced program. I even had a guaranteed spot at a categorical program that I ranked #7. Matching at my top choice has now become my worst nightmare in regards to attaining a fellowship. :mad::confused:
 
Well it appears that I'm barred from doing a fellowship after I finish residency. I guess that's what I get for ranking an advanced anesthesiology program at the top of my list without applying to ACGME prelim programs. I didn't wan't to have to move twice or acquire more interview expenses because I had an AOA internship spot at my clerkship site available in my back pocket.

I'm currently an intern at an AOA TR internship and I will be starting anesthesiology at an ACGME program in 2012. I was planning on doing a fellowship starting in 2015, the same year this policy goes into affect. Had I known this last Feb, I would have ranked 12+ categorical programs higher than this advanced program. I even had a guaranteed spot at a categorical program that I ranked #7. Matching at my top choice has now become my worst nightmare in regards to attaining a fellowship. :mad::confused:


Maybe you can still get by because you went through the Match already. I would check with the ACGME.
 
From the impact statement:

The proposed changes have the potential to affect individuals planning to enter an ACGME-accredited subspecialty program. ACGME estimates that the proposed standards would have affected approximately 6.9% of subspecialty fellows upon their entry. Therefore, some delay in implementation will be appropriate to accommodate individuals with defined plans for program entry in the next 12 to 24 months. Advance notice to programs, residents, medical schools and the public would be appropriate to allow individual and programs to adapt to the change.

There may be some delay in implementation so keep this in mind. However, make sure to e-mail the ACGME with your concerns.
 
Well it appears that I'm barred from doing a fellowship after I finish residency. I guess that's what I get for ranking an advanced anesthesiology program at the top of my list without applying to ACGME prelim programs. I didn't wan't to have to move twice or acquire more interview expenses because I had an AOA internship spot at my clerkship site available in my back pocket.

I'm currently an intern at an AOA TR internship and I will be starting anesthesiology at an ACGME program in 2012. I was planning on doing a fellowship starting in 2015, the same year this policy goes into affect. Had I known this last Feb, I would have ranked 12+ categorical programs higher than this advanced program. I even had a guaranteed spot at a categorical program that I ranked #7. Matching at my top choice has now become my worst nightmare in regards to attaining a fellowship. :mad::confused:

I would email the ACGME to let them know how this will impact you (or the hypothetical you)

HOWEVER, if this policy is implemented in 2015, you're still eligible for acgme fellowship as long as you completed an acgme residency (in this case, anesthesiology). The main impact would be if you were doing an AOA TR internship in 2015 ... then you wouldn't be eligible to start as a PGY2 (CA-1) at your acgme anesthesiology residency. If you were doing an osteopathic anesthesia residency, then with this proposed policy change, you won't be eligible for any acgme fellowship (eg pain, critical care, etc)
 
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That's encouraging, my take on it was that if you had trained in an AOA internship then you wouldn't be able to do an ACGME fellowship unless you started it before July 1, 2015. I emailed ACGME last night, I will report here after they get back to me.
 
I was hoping since I hadn't seen you on these boards that you'd died a painful death. Damn wishful thinking...

I see your maturity level appears to be in inverse relation to your years of medical education. Have a nice evening.
 
I see your maturity level appears to be in inverse relation to your years of medical education. Have a nice evening.

You're the same guy who said he went to PCOM, yet everytime I see you on here you insinuate that we are somehow less qualified than our MD colleagues. It's pathetic.

And just to double check:

Disenfranchises DOs? When did DOs get the right to apply to ACGME fellowships?

The above is somehow mature? Yes, I do think that DOs should have the right to apply to MD fellowships seeing as we're fully licensed physicians. Then again, I also believe there should NOT be a separate but equal mentality in general. I strongly disagree with DO residencies being closed to MDs. I also think that separate but equal licensure processes is a flawed mentality. We should all take the USMLE and maybe DOs should take an additional test in Osteopathic Medicine as a supplement. I digress.
 
That's encouraging, my take on it was that if you had trained in an AOA internship then you wouldn't be able to do an ACGME fellowship unless you started it before July 1, 2015. I emailed ACGME last night, I will report here after they get back to me.

See I am confused about this, I am applying to anesthesiology and all along I wanted to do an AOA internship. But after reading this it looks like I will be affected. I would start the AoA intership in 2012 and finish residency 2016. Am i reading this right?

I guess I want to know if anyone heard back. I have 6 programs that are categorical and I am wondering if I should rank them first even if I like the advanced position more? Since its probably too late to apply to allo transitional year

Is it possible to scramble in to one, I am assuming if possible it will be prelim surgery
 
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You're the same guy who said he went to PCOM, yet everytime I see you on here you insinuate that we are somehow less qualified than our MD colleagues. It's pathetic.

I graduated from an MD school. Never claimed to have attended PCOM. Perhaps you have me confused with someone else?

The above is somehow mature? Yes, I do think that DOs should have the right to apply to MD fellowships seeing as we're fully licensed physicians.

So you think my post was immature? Explain. Your thoughts notwithstanding, DOs have no "right" to apply for ACGME fellowships. The ACGME sets the requirements for ACGME fellowships and being a "fully licensed physician" is apparently a necessary but not sufficient condition.
 
So you think my post was immature? Explain. Your thoughts notwithstanding, DOs have no "right" to apply for ACGME fellowships. The ACGME sets the requirements for ACGME fellowships and being a "fully licensed physician" is apparently a necessary but not sufficient condition.

Currently they have the (non-innate) right to apply to the NRMP programs because the ACGME deliniates all NRMP programs to anyone carrying a degree recognized as physician in their country. It would present issues with MD, DO, BMBS, MBBS, MBChB, MB BCh, Bmed, MDCM, Dr. MuD, Dr. Med, Cand.med, and "Med" degrees floating around and all considered equivalent. If you're a physician in your countries health code, you can apply.

To be fair, the ACGME is made up of the AAMC (represents just allopathic schools, though its sub-membership represents both... its politics and its stupid) and the AMA (represents both), so i seriously doubt they'd disenfranchise DOs... and i do feel there is a (non-innate) right for DOs to apply since it is made up of organizations that represent DO students/residents. I think this is more business right there, as I recently found out that you can get a fellowship without having a residency if you are licensed elsewhere (overseas) and practice in a limited role for 10 years, you are allowed to apply for ACGME fellowships without ever getting a US residency. This will close that loophole, and also point out that ACGME fellowships are for those in the system already, not for picking and choosing at will for those who donate their money to the AOA rather than the AMA (oh... this means war! haha)
 
I'm not sure this is right. It will prevent you from getting into the residency, but if you do an ACGME residency you will be eligible for fellowship regardless of internship. Now, you can argue that with an osteopathic intern year you won't get into the ACGME residency in the first place, and that would be right, but it isn't your example above.

I know a great deal of people that get into allopathic anesthesia but do an osteopathic TRI. Try again.
 
wouldn't this be because the rule hasn't taken effect yet?

misread the post to which i was replying... apparently skimming isn't always the best way to have good reading comprehension.

At any rate, this is certainly grounds for a class-action lawsuit by the AOA. The ACGME has to be held to the same hiring standards as anyone else. As such they will need to prove that osteopathic internships are inferior in a measurable way. This has been rehashed over and over again over the years at various hospitals and institutions. I would be interested to see how the ACGME could show a measurable way that AOA internships put out an inferior product to ACGME TY or prelim years. Just because the ACGME says it's so, doesn't make that the case. And make no mistake about this -- This is HIRING, so it must adhere to equal opportunity laws and regulations.
 
misread the post to which i was replying... apparently skimming isn't always the best way to have good reading comprehension.

At any rate, this is certainly grounds for a class-action lawsuit by the AOA. The ACGME has to be held to the same hiring standards as anyone else. As such they will need to prove that osteopathic internships are inferior in a measurable way. This has been rehashed over and over again over the years at various hospitals and institutions. I would be interested to see how the ACGME could show a measurable way that AOA internships put out an inferior product to ACGME TY or prelim years. Just because the ACGME says it's so, doesn't make that the case. And make no mistake about this -- This is HIRING, so it must adhere to equal opportunity laws and regulations.

This is a joke, right?
 
misread the post to which i was replying... apparently skimming isn't always the best way to have good reading comprehension.

At any rate, this is certainly grounds for a class-action lawsuit by the AOA. The ACGME has to be held to the same hiring standards as anyone else. As such they will need to prove that osteopathic internships are inferior in a measurable way. This has been rehashed over and over again over the years at various hospitals and institutions. I would be interested to see how the ACGME could show a measurable way that AOA internships put out an inferior product to ACGME TY or prelim years. Just because the ACGME says it's so, doesn't make that the case. And make no mistake about this -- This is HIRING, so it must adhere to equal opportunity laws and regulations.

Are you suggesting that osteopathic physicians should be a protected class, thus coming within the purview of equal opportunity laws and regulations?? So we as a society should make sure that there is no discrimination on the basis of race, sex, age, national origin, and medical degree? Please tell me you're joking.
 
Whatever happens, I hope this at least brings more attention (outside SDN) to these pressing issues: the silly internship requirement in the 5 states, the barring of MD's from AOA programs, the overreliance on ACGME, the lack of (quality?) OGME and the perceived inferiority of AOA programs.
 
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misread the post to which i was replying... apparently skimming isn't always the best way to have good reading comprehension.

At any rate, this is certainly grounds for a class-action lawsuit by the AOA. The ACGME has to be held to the same hiring standards as anyone else. As such they will need to prove that osteopathic internships are inferior in a measurable way. This has been rehashed over and over again over the years at various hospitals and institutions. I would be interested to see how the ACGME could show a measurable way that AOA internships put out an inferior product to ACGME TY or prelim years. Just because the ACGME says it's so, doesn't make that the case. And make no mistake about this -- This is HIRING, so it must adhere to equal opportunity laws and regulations.

Sounds legit to Ralph Wiggum
ssim49.gif
 
So why are OGME programs perceived as being inferior? Aside from the hours spent doing OMM, what do they lack? Not trying to be adversarial here, I'm genuinely curious as to why this mode of thought exists.
 
So why are OGME programs perceived as being inferior? Aside from the hours spent doing OMM, what do they lack? Not trying to be adversarial here, I'm genuinely curious as to why this mode of thought exists.

There are aome fields where the training is considered inferior in an absolute sense. AOA anesthesia comes to mind. Specifically there the minimum training requorements for the aoa version is missing key techniques that are considered 'core' in the acgme training. It's said that aoa trained anesthesiologists get much fewer opportunities bcause this training deficit is known. Cases like this are few, and I personally only know of anesthesia.

There are also ones considered identical. Urology and optho come to mind. Their known to be exactly the same.

Most fall into the wide category of 'the same but dont go somewhere crappy'. Most fields (im, peds, surgery) are considered the same. I have seen completely convincing arguments to prove that in my mind the training is the same. The issue is that both acgme and aoa have good spots and crappy spots. The aoa just has a higher percent of crappy locations. So someone training at st barnabus for surgery would be as qualified as any acgme nyc surgery rotation. Barnabus is a respected site. The same cannot be said for backwater hospital 'X' in west Virginia. They may never see the same volume or difficulty of cases. But the acgme and the aoa both have these crappy surgery spots. The aoa just has *more* of them. People who say acgme is superior should be saying the median acgme is better than the median aoa. Since the median in one is still sme major academic center and only the top third or so fit that bill with the aoa.
 
There are aome fields where the training is considered inferior in an absolute sense. AOA anesthesia comes to mind. Specifically there the minimum training requorements for the aoa version is missing key techniques that are considered 'core' in the acgme training. It's said that aoa trained anesthesiologists get much fewer opportunities bcause this training deficit is known. Cases like this are few, and I personally only know of anesthesia.

There are also ones considered identical. Urology and optho come to mind. Their known to be exactly the same.

Most fall into the wide category of 'the same but dont go somewhere crappy'. Most fields (im, peds, surgery) are considered the same. I have seen completely convincing arguments to prove that in my mind the training is the same. The issue is that both acgme and aoa have good spots and crappy spots. The aoa just has a higher percent of crappy locations. So someone training at st barnabus for surgery would be as qualified as any acgme nyc surgery rotation. Barnabus is a respected site. The same cannot be said for backwater hospital 'X' in west Virginia. They may never see the same volume or difficulty of cases. But the acgme and the aoa both have these crappy surgery spots. The aoa just has *more* of them. People who say acgme is superior should be saying the median acgme is better than the median aoa. Since the median in one is still sme major academic center and only the top third or so fit that bill with the aoa.

When do you have time to study, you are always on here with such thorough responses. :p
 
Why is the MD guy getting his panties in a bunch?
 
Haven't heard anything back from the AGME, but after closely reading the document I don't think my AOA internship will have any affect on my eligibility for fellowship training.


The thought of the AOA filing a class action lawsuit against the ACGME is absurd. If any suit is to be filed it should be in the form of med students and residents suing the AOA for allowing the bottom of the barrel programs to exist. The AOA needs to tighten their accrediting standards to the level of the ACGME standards. However, they probably lack the leadership or insight for that to ever occur.
 
The thought of the AOA filing a class action lawsuit against the ACGME is absurd. If any suit is to be filed it should be in the form of med students and residents suing the AOA for allowing the bottom of the barrel programs to exist. The AOA needs to tighten their accrediting standards to the level of the ACGME standards. However, they probably lack the leadership or insight for that to ever occur.

I'd be more afraid of the feds bringing an anti-trust lawsuit.
 
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