Embarrassment to School/State? UW Madison Med Scholars.

[junqu]

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I want to get peoples' opinions, both from the state of Wisconsin and elsewhere. The UW-Madison school of medicine has about 30-50 spots in their ~150 person class dedicated to undergraduate "medical scholars." The program is based on student's high school performance (i.e. they are accepted to the medical school the day they set foot on Madison's campus as a freshman), and includes the following facts:

-No MCAT required, most students do not take the test before starting the MD program. (although, beginning this year, students must TAKE the MCAT, with no scoring requirements)

-No undergraduate degree completion required, there is a specific major called "medical sciences" created for the purpose of allowing the "medical scholars" to begin medical school after 3 years of undergrad, recieving an undergraduate degree in "medical sciences" after their first year of MD is completed.

-The students must complete the regular pre-med requirements with a low gpa minimum, ~3.3, and an overall gpa of ~3.0

-Purpose: serving rural/underprivileged students, and exceptionally well-qualified high schoolers. However, anecdotally (and not officially) a large chunk of the program is the medical royalty of the state (those with connections).

The questions that I'm interested in are:

Can a student be qualified for a top 30 medical school based on high school performance? (possibly at a rural, highly non-competitive school) Without and MCAT preparation or test results?

If the strength of the profession of medicine lies in it's incredibly high, unyielding standards, how does this sort of program fit into/facilitate that excellence?

How would you feel if this were your state's top school, or, a top private school you were interested in?

How do students from around the country look differently at the UW-Madison medical school knowing about this program?

 

[sheepunite]

the university of michigan used to have a similar program, called inteflex, which *high school seniors* would apply to (brown does something similar).

 

[Senor Fish]

My problem with those programs isn't the potential for abuse (you hear stories of that in all types of admissions processes), it is that the kids are so young. I don't always trust the a kid in high school is the one that wants to go to medical school versus his/her domineering parent.

I'm not saying all kids... but I'm saying some.

 

[Law2Doc]

My problem with those programs isn't the potential for abuse (you hear stories of that in all types of admissions processes), it is that the kids are so young. I don't always trust the a kid in high school is the one that wants to go to medical school versus his/her domineering parent.

I'm not saying all kids... but I'm saying some.

Agreed. There are relatively few people in their 20s and beyond that look back to their teenage years and think they were better thought out at that age, or had been adequately fully exposed to all the options.
Lots of places have done away with or are phasing out some of these straight to med school programs for exactly this reason.

 

[Robizzle]

Can a student be qualified for a top 30 medical school based on high school performance? (possibly at a rural, highly non-competitive school) Without and MCAT preparation or test results?

BU has a similar program called SMED (seven year med) where they complete college in 3 years and then go on for 4 years of med school. They are "in" but they still have to maintain certain GPA's, can't get certain grades (i.e. <B- in any class i think?). We also have an ENGMEDIC & MMEDIC program where kids apply to the med school after their sophomore year. In this case, they need to take the MCAT and receive a score of atleast 28 I believe.. similar grade requirements apply.

Anyway, to answer that question, all the SMEDs, ENGMEDICs, and MMEDICs that i've met here are extremely smart and work really hard so BU sure does do a good job selecting these students.

 

[junqu]

My problem with those programs isn't the potential for abuse (you hear stories of that in all types of admissions processes), it is that the kids are so young. I don't always trust the a kid in high school is the one that wants to go to medical school versus his/her domineering parent.

I'm not saying all kids... but I'm saying some.

I'd agree, again anecdotally, because I hear about/know so many students who change their minds regarding medicine, and students in this particular program who've literally said "i wouldn't even consider medicine if I had to go through the actual proccess. I'm only doing it because it's easy through med scholars."

flip side: "some" (like you said) are great and deserving. Does this justify the abuse? wouldn't those students make it in on their own through the regular proccess?

 

[Law2Doc]

"...I'm only doing it because it's easy through med scholars."

Sounds like the yearbook quote of folks who will ultimately drop out. Med school is exactly the wrong path for folks who are looking for "easy". Admissions is rarely the hardest struggle you encounter on this path, as tough as it seems to some of the pre-allo crowd right now.

 

[cubbbie]

Northwestern also has a program like this.

The thing to keep in mind is that is basically how the rest of the world schedules medical school. The US is unique in that it's a separate degree from the undergraduate degree. MOST kids in the rest of the world start on their path to becoming a doctor straight out of high school.

 

[sheepunite]

My problem with those programs isn't the potential for abuse (you hear stories of that in all types of admissions processes), it is that the kids are so young. I don't always trust the a kid in high school is the one that wants to go to medical school versus his/her domineering parent.

I'm not saying all kids... but I'm saying some.

by and large, i agree.
from a certain standpoint, it's almost pedagogically irresponsible to let 18-year-olds sign themselves up for such a rigorous profession. but then i think of my syrian uncle, who started med school in damascus when he was 16 . . .

anyway, u of m's phased out their program for, i think, these very reasons.

 

[HumbleMD]

the university of michigan used to have a similar program, called inteflex, which *high school seniors* would apply to (brown does something similar).

Yeah, they cancelled the Michigan Inteflex program a few ears ago. It was quite rigorous (equivalend of doing undergrad in 2 years). Rumor has it the program was cancelled because the suicide rate was too high😱.

Michigan State also has a program that admits from High School. I had a girl from my High School apply and attend. She was one of those cry or have mom and dad call in to get grades changed types. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't jealous at the time, but I'm definitely glad that I didn't lock myself into one school (my god, I hated State when I interviewed there). They have to maintain a certain GPA, but I guess I've never thought about if they really are prepared enough. I'm sure the High School admissions standards are quite high, and I'd bet they've never had anyone fail out of med school out or something.

 

[junqu]

Northwestern also has a program like this.

The thing to keep in mind is that is basically how the rest of the world schedules medical school. The US is unique in that it's a separate degree from the undergraduate degree. MOST kids in the rest of the world start on their path to becoming a doctor straight out of high school.

Isn't there something to be said for the relativity of the system though? Would those countries consider a middle school student qualified when the system is based on high school performance?

 

[Law2Doc]

The thing to keep in mind is that is basically how the rest of the world schedules medical school. The US is unique in that it's a separate degree from the undergraduate degree. MOST kids in the rest of the world start on their path to becoming a doctor straight out of high school.

They have more training on the back end, so it's not really shorter. And they fail people out far more frequently -- in the US once you are admitted to med school, in 90+% of all cases you will become a doctor. Not so in the rest of the world.
FWIW, the US intentionally chose a different system of training (that version was in existence but we purposefully chose a different path), and with admission of non-sci majors and nontrads in recent decades is actually moving further, not closer to that model, also purposefully. You can draw your own conclusions as to the reasoning.

 

[MossPoh]

A lot of schools do programs like this. Penn State does too. I was friends with a lot of them. Are they qualified? Generally they are...I know we don't like to acknowledge it but number trends have a very strong correlation to how well one does in college. These programs usually require over a 1400 SAT which means you aren't exactly dim. I know a lot of kids that realize the program isn't for them and they move out....It is nice to have the option and when they realize at a certain point that they don't want to be a doctor they drop the program. It sucks for the rest of us but I'm yet to meet a stupid person in the bunch. Yes, yes I know many people will say they are too young to really know....but honestly 2 or 3 years in college isn't much time either....everyone except nontrads are pretty young to know.. It isn't an embarrasment....it may bringout miserable doctors but they will be qualified.

 

[junqu]

over a 1400 SAT .

If there's anything we know about this proccess, being "smart" (at least on paper in terms of numbers) is only one of the factors admissions uses at many schools, especially top schools where the vast majority are very well qualified numerically. If it doesn't get a college senior in, why should it get a high school senior in?

 

[ms_taken]

My high school had (and still has) a joint-program with Baylor College of Medicine where they accept 10 students. However, about half of the students who were accepted dropped out during college. The posters are right about parent pressures for a good chunk of the students.

 

[Law2Doc]

it may bringout miserable doctors but they will be qualified.

I think that's the right conclusion, although being miserable at your job often leads to depression, being careless/disinterested, not patient-friendly, perhaps even substance abusing and the like. So I'm not sure being merely "qualified" or "competent" is the goal of the profession.

 

[Falco2525]

Yeah a lot of school has these programs...including Baylor College of Medicine

 

[Badger4Life]

Medical scholars students at Wisconsin outscore the rest of their class on the boards and have higher than average GPAs. But, it's probably just easier to forget that and complain about how "unfair" the program is, when in reality you are all just jealous.

 

[owenmichael]

Medical scholars students at Wisconsin outscore the rest of their class on the boards and have higher than average GPAs. But, it's probably just easier to forget that and complain about how "unfair" the program is, when in reality you are all just jealous.

THis is COMPLETELY UNTRUE. Their average GPA was slightly higher last year (I had the stat sheet). Don't you think it is a little easier to maintain a higher GPA when you don't have to go through the MCAT and don't have to go through the interview process??? No application process and no MCAT = alot more time to study for classes. And for some reason I just dont think UW med school would produce stats that say "Med scholar board scores" and "everyone elses board scores." I knew alot of med scholars while at undergrad at UW and I acknowledge there were some GREAT students who really deserved it. However, there are alot of med scholar students who dropped out of the program (because med scholars was their backup plan coming into college or they couldn't maintain their undergrad GPA...there was also one med scholar that dropped out of med school 2 years into it because she couldn't handle the work) or are the type of people I would never let treat me. I wouldn't call med scholars a disgrace either. Its a great way to retain smart candidates at UW med school. Last year they did start requiring the MCAT... although I think you neneded a 27 to stay in the program. And despite their advantage coming in, they do pay some form of a price (they don't qualify for ANY scholarships).

 

[zimmie256]

And then you have Pritzker which admitted a 13 year old to their MD/PhD program a few years back... 🙄 (Regular admissions, not through med scholars -- The kid already had his bachelors.)

 

[45408]

Medical scholars students at Wisconsin outscore the rest of their class on the boards and have higher than average GPAs. But, it's probably just easier to forget that and complain about how "unfair" the program is, when in reality you are all just jealous.

I would have had a higher GPA if I didn't have to do research, volunteering, shadowing, or anything clinical either. Hell, I'd be embarassed not to have a 4.0 if all I had to do was take classes and not even the MCAT. I think the guaranteed acceptance programs are less likely to produce students who are used to working under a heavy load.

 

[future_dr_house]

I would have had a higher GPA if I didn't have to do research, volunteering, shadowing, or anything clinical either. Hell, I'd be embarassed not to have a 4.0 if all I had to do was take classes and not even the MCAT. I think the guaranteed acceptance programs are less likely to produce students who are used to working under a heavy load.

let's not forget prowler that although you'd be embarrased to not have a 4.0 you would probably only need to maintain a 3.3 or less. I don't know who came up with these programs, but the requirements are absurdly low. Maybe students who enter this program generally are smart and do well, but it should be a requirement not an option.

 

[G.O.A.T.]

junqu, tons of schools have these programs. stop being such a hater. more power to these students for finding the easiest possible route. i guess that makes everyone else look, well, stupid. worry about yourself, not something you can't control. and you say how can they know they want to do medicine when they are just in high school? well buddy, half my med school class knew the wanted to be doctors in high school, arrived at college on the first day of school and knew they wanted to be doctors, and are now in med school becoming doctors. but don't worry, i have complete confidence you will be going to med school.....med school is full of cry babies.

 

[pike1]

I took more of a nontrad path to med school myself, but the med scholars that I have worked with here at UW are very smart people. I am proud to call them my classmates and I certainly don't view them as an embarassment. The med scholars program wouldn't have been my cup of tea, but it has worked for them. Everyone takes a different path in life.

 

[krachenfels89]

I'm a senior now and i know i want to be a doctor and it isn't related to my parents. I honestly dont think one or two years in college will change my mind. Does anyone know of any top mecial schools in the northeast coast that offer this? I know albany and stonybrook do, but i dont know how good they are ranked med school wise.

 

[Miami_med]

There is a similar program here at Miami. Most of the students do quite well and are exceptionally capable. However, we lost a number of these students first year. It's kind of like a bi-modal distribution. They made up some of the best and some of the worst students in the class. I think they do a great job of getting smart students, but there is no way to really know if someone will still want to do this after a couple of years of college. Those that didn't cut it seemed more disinterested than incapable.

 

[etf]

and they said i was too young at 20...

 

[m-said]

I'm a senior now and i know i want to be a doctor and it isn't related to my parents. I honestly dont think one or two years in college will change my mind. Does anyone know of any top mecial schools in the northeast coast that offer this? I know albany and stonybrook do, but i dont know how good they are ranked med school wise.

I think Dartmouth & Brown have some sort of program & they accept 60 people each year. It's the only east coast one I've heard of & I know here at Northwestern they have a similar program-straight out of high school, done w/ undergrad & med school in a total of 7 years. Good luck w/ everything, & if you can get in it's not a bad route to take. Had I known about these options I probably would have done it right after high school- but then again, I don't know what that would'be been like & i'm a believer in that everything happens for a reason, so I definitely don't regret taking the "traditional" route & suffering thru MCATs & apps. It's all about what you want personally & would be comfortable with.

 

[Captain Fantastic]

The University of Missouri - Columbia has a similar pre-admission program -- the Conely Scholars program. The ~20 students that are selected for this program are students that have scored in the 90th percentile in college entrance exams, have outstanding high-school GPAs, were motivated enough to have physician shadowing and medically related volunteer experiences, and have been through the same interview process as regular admits.

Don't kid yourself that just because the minimum to stay in the program is a 3.3 that these students aren't high performers. I don't have the exact figures in front of me, but last year the entering Conely scholars had a higher average CumGPA than the rest of the entering class. In last year's graduating class, I believe 8 of the top 10 students (i.e., graduated with honors) were Conely scholars.

Face it, the majority of these students would have gotten into medical school anyway. Without the program how many of these students would attend an out-of-state undergrad or attend a different medical school? I'm guessing a sizable percentage. The state school is trying to keep some of its brightest and most motivated students in state, which after all is its mission.

I don't begrudge any of these students. Power to them that they knew what they wanted earlier in life than I did.

 

[DetroitRocket]

Toledo has a program like this, but only for bioengineering students. You need a minimum of a 3.8 HS gpa and at least a 29 ACT or 1300 SAT. They only take 10 students per year and you must maintain a 3.5 gpa in bioengineering and have a successful interview with the college of medicine committee.

 

[LizzyM]

University brass love these programs because it attracts applicants who would otherwise go to more presitigious schools. These applicants often have SAT scores far above other undergrad matriculants (1600 in many cases under the old scoring system). The relatively low gpa requirement may be a relic of an earlier time when grad inflation was less of an issue and it was also meant to free students to pursue rigorous coursework in non-traditional fields without the fear of "ruining" a gpa (e.g. engineering). The down side for students is that the affiliated medical school may not be "as good" as some other schools and those applicants can choose to "apply out". No harm there because the school's goal is to attract talented undergrads to the undergrad program.

I have seen a bi-modal distribution in the quality of students. At the other end, some of the most hard working, talented physicians I know are the products of these programs.

Medical school faculty often bemoan that fact that some of the students who've had only 3 years undergrad with no incentive to volunteer in medical settings during that time are immature and inexperienced in comparison to the students who entered medical school through the traditional route (not to mention the non-trads who are usually the most experienced & mature in their decision to pursue medicine). Most adcoms would not shed a tear to see these programs disappear but at some schools they may be a means of attracting very talented students to the medical school who would otherwise go elsewhere and in those cases, they may be most welcome. In situations such as in Wisconsin, it maybe a way of preventing a brain drain from the state.

 

[riceman04]

I want to get peoples' opinions, both from the state of Wisconsin and elsewhere. The UW-Madison school of medicine has about 30-50 spots in their ~150 person class dedicated to undergraduate "medical scholars." The program is based on student's high school performance (i.e. they are accepted to the medical school the day they set foot on Madison's campus as a freshman), and includes the following facts:

-No MCAT required, most students do not take the test before starting the MD program. (although, beginning this year, students must TAKE the MCAT, with no scoring requirements)

-No undergraduate degree completion required, there is a specific major called "medical sciences" created for the purpose of allowing the "medical scholars" to begin medical school after 3 years of undergrad, recieving an undergraduate degree in "medical sciences" after their first year of MD is completed.

-The students must complete the regular pre-med requirements with a low gpa minimum, ~3.3, and an overall gpa of ~3.0

-Purpose: serving rural/underprivileged students, and exceptionally well-qualified high schoolers. However, anecdotally (and not officially) a large chunk of the program is the medical royalty of the state (those with connections).

The questions that I'm interested in are:

Can a student be qualified for a top 30 medical school based on high school performance? (possibly at a rural, highly non-competitive school) Without and MCAT preparation or test results?

If the strength of the profession of medicine lies in it's incredibly high, unyielding standards, how does this sort of program fit into/facilitate that excellence?

How would you feel if this were your state's top school, or, a top private school you were interested in?

How do students from around the country look differently at the UW-Madison medical school knowing about this program?

Well...I can tell you that Rice has a very similar program with Baylor College of Medicine...and I can assure you that Baylor is still very highly regarded....Their board scores are off the charts

 

[Cirrus83]

I think the problem is that it seems like the undergrad requirements are a bit lax...no MCAT cutoff either.

Seriously, a 3.0 overall is all you need?

At my school I think it was like over a 3.6 in everything, so most of the kids in the program were probably more hardcore than the regular people accepted lol.

Odd.

 

[Mr. Tee]

And then you have Pritzker which admitted a 13 year old to their MD/PhD program a few years back... 🙄 (Regular admissions, not through med scholars -- The kid already had his bachelors.)

There's nothing wrong with that. That guy's IQ was 200+. That's a z-score of at least +6.25....