End of Grade Replacement?

[ElysaMS]

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Yeah like how the new MCAT transition was handled - almost every school continued accepting the old MCAT for 2015 and 2016. Suddenly collectively announcing that AMCAS would only display new MCAT scores at the start of the 2015 cycle would have started riots.

But doesn't the AACOMAS application automatically do the GPA calculation and the schools see that? If that's the case, then they're changing the calculation process entirely so it would be up to the individual schools to go back through your transcript and recalculate your GPA themselves, which seems like a lot of work to undue the standardization between the MD and DO application process. Not saying they won't but also what are the odds of that? Because if that were the situation then the whole application change could be postponed for the next 2-3 years anyway and they wouldn't be changing this year.

 

[BoroPreMed92]

As a student who will be attending a DO school, I'm not someone who has had to utilize the grade replacement policy but this really is a shot to the gut to those who are. I know how easy it could have been for me to have been not so focused my first few years of college and royal screw my GPA. Like others have posted, replacing those really low grades with A's will still serve you well. I believe Upward trends will be rewarded more heavily if all this is true.

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[Shotapp]

I have many theories here, and think the lack of warning is deplorable, but it call comes back to money one can rest assured. This was all foretold in Dr Norman Gevitz prophecy. LCME and COCA merger next? Dual degree MD/DO programs? Veterinary OMM programs? Who knows what's next.

Veterinary OMM and MD/DO lol

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Not sure if someone else has mentioned this, but this policy might be a step towards the elimination of the DO degree altogether.

 

[BoroPreMed92]

Not sure if someone else has mentioned this, but this policy might be a step towards the elimination of the DO degree altogether.

How is this even a remote possibility?

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[Nikj]

I have many theories here, and think the lack of warning is deplorable, but it call comes back to money one can rest assured. This was all foretold in Dr Norman Gevitz prophecy. LCME and COCA merger next? Dual degree MD/DO programs? Veterinary OMM programs? Who knows what's next.

Veterinary OMM and MD/DO lol

http://vomtech.com/what-is-vom/

 

[SurgDoc95]

How is this even a remote possibility?

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It's not really, but people are going to go to the extreme in their overreaction to this policy change.

 

[BoroPreMed92]

It's not really, but people are going to go to the extreme in their overreaction to this policy change.

Haha I just thought it was funny that it was even proposed.

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[Shotapp]

http://vomtech.com/what-is-vom/

O_O 🤣

Edit: I didn't think it was a real thing...

 

[DNC127]

This is a good thing overall IMO. Now the "low stat" applicants in each class will be those that would have been "mid-high stat" with grade replacement, and people who were just "low stat" before this policy will likely have troubles getting in. Increase standards = increase respect (hopefully).

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

How is this even a remote possibility?

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I mean, is it that far-fetched? Nothing against DOs btw.

 

[BoroPreMed92]

I mean, is it that far-fetched? Nothing against DOs btw.

It really is THAT far fetched.

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[WhereMyLiberalsAt]

You know what forget this crap. I'll go do an SMP at a top 25 school, and apply to MD schools. I haven't killed myself getting +3.7 doing 15+ credit semesters in the sciences for three years to sale myself short! I was glad to apply DO when their policies favored reinvention, but now whats the point. I wanted to experience research anyways! Can someone point me towards some good SMP threads.

 

[Nikj]

You know what forget this crap. I'll go do an SMP at a top 25 school, and apply to MD schools. I haven't killed myself getting +3.7 doing 15+ credit semesters in the sciences for three years to sale myself short! I was glad to apply DO when their policies favored reinvention, but now whats the point. I wanted to experience research anyways! Can someone point me towards some good SMP threads.

https://forums.studentdoctor.net/forums/postbaccalaureate-programs.71/

I'm there with ya. There are some great DO ones too!

 

[ElysaMS]

You know what forget this crap. I'll go do an SMP at a top 25 school, and apply to MD schools. I haven't killed myself getting +3.7 doing 15+ credit semesters in the sciences for three years to sale myself short! I was glad to apply DO when their policies favored reinvention, but now whats the point. I wanted to experience research anyways! Can someone point me towards some good SMP threads.

This exactly what I'm thinking. I feel like doing well enough on the MCAT, showcasing my ECs and the upwards trend should make me decent enough of an applicant for allopathic schools. Might as well just go the whole way.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

It really is THAT far fetched.

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So is it theoretically impossible for a DO school to apply for MD accreditation? I actually don't know, which is why I'm asking.

 

[Shammyguy3]

With the grade replacement policy, I was able to increase from 3.48cGPA and 3.10sGPA to 3.68cGPA and 3.48sGPA. Now without grade replacement, all i've done is gone up to a 3.49cGPA (+0.01) and a 3.13sGPA (+0.03). Those screens I was avoiding will now likely kill my app. The only hope is if adcoms look closely at my app and see the last 42 credits, 35 of which were science courses (including those retake classes this past Fall), and see a 3.78cGPA and 3.83sGPA.

@Goro what are your thoughts? Could those last 42 courses save my app with a 505+ score on the MCAT? Or do i need to continue going to school full-time and continue showing that upward trend?

 

[efle]

I don't know why people think it's that outrageous, if COCA and LCME merged, what big barriers remain?

 

[efle]

With the grade replacement policy, I was able to increase from 3.48cGPA and 3.10sGPA to 3.68cGPA and 3.48sGPA. Now without grade replacement, all i've done is gone up to a 3.49cGPA (+0.01) and a 3.13sGPA (+0.03). Those screens I was avoiding will now likely kill my app. The only hope is if adcoms look closely at my app and see the last 42 credits, 35 of which were science courses (including those retake classes this past Fall), and see a 3.78cGPA and 3.83sGPA.

@Goro what are your thoughts? Could those last 42 courses save my app with a 505+ score on the MCAT? Or do i need to continue going to school full-time and continue showing that upward trend?

Are you sure about the math there? 42 credits at 3.8 can't only move you up by 0.01 ??

 

[Goro]

Apply broadly!!!! i think that you will do fine.

Add your state MD schools if you can snag a 510+

With the grade replacement policy, I was able to increase from 3.48cGPA and 3.10sGPA to 3.68cGPA and 3.48sGPA. Now without grade replacement, all i've done is gone up to a 3.49cGPA (+0.01) and a 3.13sGPA (+0.03). Those screens I was avoiding will now likely kill my app. The only hope is if adcoms look closely at my app and see the last 42 credits, 35 of which were science courses (including those retake classes this past Fall), and see a 3.78cGPA and 3.83sGPA.

@Goro what are your thoughts? Could those last 42 courses save my app with a 505+ score on the MCAT? Or do i need to continue going to school full-time and continue showing that upward trend?

 

[BoroPreMed92]

So is it theoretically impossible for a DO school to apply for MD accreditation? I actually don't know, which is why I'm asking.

I don't know the logistics of running a medical school but to address your original statement, the DO degree isn't going anywhere.

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[ElysaMS]

I don't know why people think it's that outrageous, if COCA and LCME merged, what big barriers remain?

The suddenness of it is what I think is outrageous. It's understandable with the merger but it's still kind of out of the blue and if it's true it's kicking in this cycle, that really sucks for people who have spent years and thousands of dollars thinking that would save them, and then only having 5 months notice that they're SOL.

 

[Goro]

*sigh* The sky is not falling.

Not sure if someone else has mentioned this, but this policy might be a step towards the elimination of the DO degree altogether.

 

[Goro]

We can only hope! Maybe in another generation, after I'm dead, though.

I don't know why people think it's that outrageous, if COCA and LCME merged, what big barriers remain?

 

[dwgrubbs1s]

I'm sure I'll get slammed for this, but won't this policy put into place a sort of incentive program? You either do well the first time you take a course or you settle for an averaged grade the second time taking that course? I find it pretty tough to think that a person who gets a D in gen bio who then retakes it and gets an A should have their transcript from aacomas show that they earned an A. There are definitely circumstances where someone has something bad happen, but for those that simply didn't put the necessary time in I don't feel they should be rewarded for retaking the course. Just my opinion!

This is what I have been wondering. Do admissions for D.O. schools take retakes into consideration when comparing candidates? A 3.5 student who never had a retake, and a 3.57 student who had multiple retakes....do they consider the retakes? Was it a retake that bumped them from a B to an A? D to an A? This is where the waters probably get very muddied. I agree with you. A student that got a D in class should not have the opportunity to retake the class, get an A, and have the D expunged from their GPA calculation completely only showing the A. I am a firm believer in second chances and screwed off the first several years of college myself. However, being able to completely get away from a poor grade (or several) by retaking and only showing the exceptional grade seems to inflate the rigor of the admissions process.

 

[Shammyguy3]

Apply broadly!!!! i think that you will do fine.

Add your state MD schools if you can snag a 510+

Thank you

Are you sure about the math there? 42 credits at 3.8 can't only move you up by 0.01 ??

Only 15 of those 42 credits include retaken courses. I've taken 158 credits total, so 4 classes worth 15 credits of 4.0 retakes unfortunately doesn't have a huge impact on my overall GPA without grade replacement

 

[Nikj]

We can only hope! Maybe in another generation, after I'm dead, though.

I don't know why people think it's that outrageous, if COCA and LCME merged, what big barriers remain?

It's not however, entirely unrealistic to think that if COCA standards don't start to align with/catch up to those of the LCME, that some of the better DO schools would shoot to become LCME accredited, which some might already be planning.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

It's not however, entirely unrealistic to think that if COCA standards don't start to align with/catch up to those of the LCME, that some of the better DO schools would shoot to become LCME accredited, which some might already be planning.

Yep, if it's actually logistically possible, I wouldn't be surprised if schools like Midwestern were already planning this.

 

[final exams]

Welp. Guess I better work on my "Hi! Welcome to McDonald's, may I take your order" voice.

 

[efle]

some of the better DO schools would shoot to become LCME accredited, which some might already be planning.

This thought also crossed my mind. I understand many DO schools are for profit and the quality of clinical years is often criticized, but...if Cal Northstate can get set up so quick and easy it is hard to stay a skeptic

 

[SurgDoc95]

It's not however, entirely unrealistic to think that if COCA standards don't start to align with/catch up to those of the LCME, that some of the better DO schools would shoot to become LCME accredited, which some might already be planning.

If this were to happen would the students who graduate from those schools a few years before they changed to MD still be DOs or would they be awarded an MD degree?

Hypothetically of course[emoji4]

 

[BoroPreMed92]

Yep, if it's actually logistically possible, I wouldn't be surprised if schools like Midwestern were already planning this.

Aligning with LCME had always been the goal/ gold standard. However, this will only strengthen the reputation of those DO schools that do. Those schools won't suddenly grant the MD degree after decades of awarding the DO degree. Thus, as I've stated before, the DOs are here to stay.

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[BoroPreMed92]

It's not however, entirely unrealistic to think that if COCA standards don't start to align with/catch up to those of the LCME, that some of the better DO schools would shoot to become LCME accredited, which some might already be planning.

This would make the process SO much simpler. One unified accrediting body for physicians in the US. I hope that this will be the ultimate goal for all medical schools in the near future. Here's to hoping!

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[Nikj]

If this were to happen would the students who graduate from those schools a few years before they changed to MD still be DOs or would they be awarded an MD degree?

Hypothetically of course

MD unless the schools worked out a plan with LCME to retain the DO degree. That seems more likely than an outright or immediate dismantling of DO's. That should be the direction for maintaining and growing the DO profession.

 

[sdhere1234]

This thought also crossed my mind. I understand many DO schools are for profit and the quality of clinical years is often criticized, but...if Cal Northstate can get set up so quick and easy it is hard to stay a skeptic

2 out of 34 are for-profit..I wouldn't say that's "many"

BCOM and RVU

 

[efle]

2 out of 34 are for-profit..I wouldn't say that's "many"

BCOM and RVU

Huh, TIL, I thought it was much more common. Or maybe it's that a bunch of the ~dozen schools trying to start up are for profit? Anyways that's even less reason to be skeptical then - the upper end of DO probably overlaps the lower end of MD plenty for an accreditation swap

 

[cherubb3]

For those reinvention applicants thinking of trying to make the leap to MD... I did ~40 credits of upper level science classes (3.9) and applied to MD schools with a overall sGPA of 3.05 (and a 34 MCAT) and got into a top 25 MD school. It's not impossible.

 

[PNWDoctor]

This is the full email I received from an advisor earlier today. Clearly he paid no mind to the fact that he was supposed to hold off until Thursday.


"Please see the below notice which will be distributed to students tomorrow (Wednesday) afternoon regarding a change in AACOMAS policy for the next application cycle. We wanted to ensure you were aware of this change, but ask that you not forward this information until Thursday after our website and AACOMAS customer service goes live with the notice. In an effort to increase transparency, the American Association of Colleges of Osteopathic Medicine (AACOM) Board of Deans approved the following resolution regarding the AACOMAS Repeat Coursework Policy:

Effective May 1, 2017, AACOMAS will include all course attempts in the GPA calculation. This change applies to students matriculating into the 2018-2019 academic year. In the event of multiple attempts of the same course, AACOMAS will no longer drop initial course attempts from the GPA calculation.

Effective May 1, 2017, applicants using the 2017-2018 application cycle Reapplicant feature in AACOMAS for matriculation into the 2018-2019 academic year must adhere to the new policy. Therefore, AACOMAS will automatically update previously verified repeated coursework to ensure all applications adhere to the new policy.

We will notify current applicants by email tomorrow afternoon, Wednesday, January 4. Specific details regarding the new policy can be found below and will be posted on the AACOM website on January 4. We again ask that you not distribute this information until Thursday, January 5, so that we have time to inform our audience and ensure that we have updated the information on our website. After that time, please feel free to forward this message to any advisors, faculty advisors, and/or colleagues that work with pre-med students.

Should you have additional questions, please email AACOMAS Customer Service at [email protected].

Notice: Change to AACOMAS Repeat Coursework Policy for 2017-2018 AACOMAS Application Cycle

In an effort to increase transparency, the American Association of Colleges of Osteopathic Medicine (AACOM) Board of Deans has approved the following resolution regarding the AACOMAS Repeat Coursework Policy:

Effective May 1, 2017, AACOMAS will include all course attempts in the GPA calculation. This change applies to students matriculating into the 2018-2019 academic year. In the event of multiple attempts of the same course, AACOMAS will no longer drop initial course attempts from the GPA calculation.

The current AACOMAS Repeat Coursework Policy drops initial course attempts from the GPA calculation. Over the past several years, this policy has caused confusion among applicants, pre-health advisors, and colleges, and is one of the top questions received by AACOMAS customer service. AACOM recognizes the need to streamline application policies and instructions, and we anticipate this new policy will ensure a fair, consistent, and transparent application process for all applicants.

In the upcoming 2017-2018 AACOMAS application cycle, applicants will continue to identify repeated courses during coursework entry, but they will no longer enter 0.00 credit hours for initial attempts. Credit hours for all attempts will be entered as they appear on the official transcript and all grades will be averaged. The AACOMAS application instructions will be updated in advance of the 2017-2018 application cycle to reflect this change in policy. We anticipate that this change will enable applicants to move through the coursework entry section of the AACOMAS application more quickly and with greater accuracy.

Effective May 1, 2017, applicants using the 2017-2018 application cycle Reapplicant feature in AACOMAS for matriculation into the 2018-2019 academic year must adhere to the new policy. Therefore, AACOMAS will automatically update previously verified repeated coursework to ensure all applications adhere to the new policy.

Osteopathic medical schools may continue recalculating and weighing applicant GPAs and repeated courses per their established admissions practices. The scope of this policy change is limited to the AACOMAS verified GPA calculation."


In a nutshell, AACOMAS is going live with the announcement tomorrow. According to this email the purpose of the policy change is to "streamline the application process". *rolls eyes*

Just me or does that last paragraph make it seem like maybe.. just maybe... some DO schools may continue to honor grade replacement?

 

[Nikj]

2 out of 34 are for-profit..I wouldn't say that's "many"

BCOM and RVU

The fact that even a single DO school is for-profit makes it too many schools. Of the what, 141 or so U.S MD schools, zero are for profit. This is why people are upset with COCA.

Edit: didn't see/ know about the Cal Northstate school. Still my point remains the same, that for- profit is not good for any medical school.

 

[efle]

overall sGPA of 3.05 (and a 34 MCAT) and got into a top 25 MD school.

I feel like we might be missing some other important elements of your app here...even with a 34 and great postbacc a 3.05 gets you cut pretty universally among top 25. URM? State or mission driven school like U of Wash / UCLA Drew ?

 

[efle]

The fact that even a single DO school is for-profit makes it too many schools. Of the what, 141 or so MD U.S MD schools, zero are for profit. This is why people are upset with COCA.

Cal Northstate is actually for profit, that's why it seemed so shocking that they got set up and accredited by LCME easily !

 

[SurgDoc95]

The fact that even a single DO school is for-profit makes it too many schools. Of the what, 141 or so MD U.S MD schools, zero are for profit. This is why people are upset with COCA.

One is for profit and it happens to be the newest and most controversial: Cal Northstate. As someone who toured there I was very unimpressed and can understand the criticisms of the program.

 

[kuzy]

Well dang, I was really banking on grade replacement to get me in the door and my upward trend/ECs/LORs to do the rest.
So as it stands, I'll be applying with a 3.22 sGPA and 3.2 cGPA. If I did a year of post-bac/2nd degree, I could get that to a 3.36/3.29 with 24 credit hours. The thing is, I'm not sure if I could afford it and I still might not get in.

What are the options? SMP? Masters in a hard science?

 

[ElysaMS]

How would the DO schools go about honoring the grade replacement policy, if they do, though? Wouldn't they have to individually and manually recalculate based on your transcript? That seems like a lot of work in the face of "streamlining" the process. Why would schools go out of their way to do this?

 

[starspells]

I feel like we might be missing some other important elements of your app here...even with a 34 and great postbacc a 3.05 gets you cut pretty universally among top 25. URM? State or mission driven school like U of Wash / UCLA Drew ?

I know a few people who had GPAs around a 3.00 who got some top 25 love. They were not URMs, but they did have very good MCATs (35-36+) and very strong upward trends! Their ECs were good too, I guess.

 

[starspells]

.

 

[Cardboard101]

This is the full email I received from an advisor earlier today. Clearly he paid no mind to the fact that he was supposed to hold off until Thursday..


"Please see the below notice which will be distributed to students tomorrow (Wednesday) afternoon regarding a change in AACOMAS policy for the next application cycle. We wanted to ensure you were aware of this change, but ask that you not forward this information until Thursday after our website and AACOMAS customer service goes live with the notice. In an effort to increase transparency, the American Association of Colleges of Osteopathic Medicine (AACOM) Board of Deans approved the following resolution regarding the AACOMAS Repeat Coursework Policy:

Effective May 1, 2017, AACOMAS will include all course attempts in the GPA calculation. This change applies to students matriculating into the 2018-2019 academic year. In the event of multiple attempts of the same course, AACOMAS will no longer drop initial course attempts from the GPA calculation.

Effective May 1, 2017, applicants using the 2017-2018 application cycle Reapplicant feature in AACOMAS for matriculation into the 2018-2019 academic year must adhere to the new policy. Therefore, AACOMAS will automatically update previously verified repeated coursework to ensure all applications adhere to the new policy.

We will notify current applicants by email tomorrow afternoon, Wednesday, January 4. Specific details regarding the new policy can be found below and will be posted on the AACOM website on January 4. We again ask that you not distribute this information until Thursday, January 5, so that we have time to inform our audience and ensure that we have updated the information on our website. After that time, please feel free to forward this message to any advisors, faculty advisors, and/or colleagues that work with pre-med students.

Should you have additional questions, please email AACOMAS Customer Service at [email protected].

Notice: Change to AACOMAS Repeat Coursework Policy for 2017-2018 AACOMAS Application Cycle

In an effort to increase transparency, the American Association of Colleges of Osteopathic Medicine (AACOM) Board of Deans has approved the following resolution regarding the AACOMAS Repeat Coursework Policy:

Effective May 1, 2017, AACOMAS will include all course attempts in the GPA calculation. This change applies to students matriculating into the 2018-2019 academic year. In the event of multiple attempts of the same course, AACOMAS will no longer drop initial course attempts from the GPA calculation.

The current AACOMAS Repeat Coursework Policy drops initial course attempts from the GPA calculation. Over the past several years, this policy has caused confusion among applicants, pre-health advisors, and colleges, and is one of the top questions received by AACOMAS customer service. AACOM recognizes the need to streamline application policies and instructions, and we anticipate this new policy will ensure a fair, consistent, and transparent application process for all applicants.

In the upcoming 2017-2018 AACOMAS application cycle, applicants will continue to identify repeated courses during coursework entry, but they will no longer enter 0.00 credit hours for initial attempts. Credit hours for all attempts will be entered as they appear on the official transcript and all grades will be averaged. The AACOMAS application instructions will be updated in advance of the 2017-2018 application cycle to reflect this change in policy. We anticipate that this change will enable applicants to move through the coursework entry section of the AACOMAS application more quickly and with greater accuracy.

Effective May 1, 2017, applicants using the 2017-2018 application cycle Reapplicant feature in AACOMAS for matriculation into the 2018-2019 academic year must adhere to the new policy. Therefore, AACOMAS will automatically update previously verified repeated coursework to ensure all applications adhere to the new policy.

Osteopathic medical schools may continue recalculating and weighing applicant GPAs and repeated courses per their established admissions practices. The scope of this policy change is limited to the AACOMAS verified GPA calculation."


In a nutshell, AACOMAS is going live with the announcement tomorrow. According to this email the purpose of the policy change is to "streamline the application process". *rolls eyes*

Just me or does that last paragraph make it seem like maybe.. just maybe... some DO schools may continue to honor grade replacement?.

So, it looks like instead of AACOMAS deciding whether or not to do grade replacement, individual DO schools will now choose?


The lack of warning ahead of this change is alarming.

 

[getfat]

I'm holding onto hope that the average DO matriculant has an unrealistically elevated GPA due to grade replacement. With this going away, my bet is applicant gpa's at DO schools will drop. At that point, my HOPE is the established GPA screens will reflect that drop, and then the burden will lie with the schools to do a more thorough holistic review of the applicants, so GPA Won't eliminate a quality applicant.

I don't think matriculating GPA will drop but average age of matriculants will drop significantly. Career changers will be much more hesitant to pursue medicine.

Does this really even make sense for DO schools? Won't applicants now just apply MD if grade replacement is gone?

Doubtful but sadly I think that this will make the DO cycle even longer. Interview cycle may go past march into July because so many qualified applicants will pull their names from consideration in the spring. Some of these newer DO schools could have unfilled spots during this transition.

Someone above called this despicable, it's a shame SDN filters the words you need to really describe this.

Haha i love the SDN filter, i wish someone would start a thread highlighting funny autocorrects throughout the years.

I think doubling the time and money required to do +0.xx repair does change the applicant pools now.

Agreed 100%; I was always under the impression osteopathic medicine was catered to non-trads but this move sends a different message.Many Non-trads will elect to go the PA route. A lot of PA schools will allow grade replacement. Many underdogs don't have the time to track on another year of science classes w/o financial aid, help from family.

I'm sure I'll get slammed for this, but won't this policy put into place a sort of incentive program?

I can understand your argument but i think this move is too drastic. AACOMAS should utilize the last 60-90 credit policy many MD schools use. That way re-invention applicants are not left in the cold but you get credit for doing your coursework right the first time.

if you're banking on grade replacement, you're in a small minority of applicants unfortunately.

Many Non-trads, more importantly career changers utilize this policy. It stinks because DO schools will lose out on a lot of qualified students.

Maybe I'm too cynical but I don't really expect to see a big drop in numbers. I think the shift would initially be relaxed expectations about ECs and interview performance rather than relaxed standards for numbers,

No change in expectations (ECs, GPA) but i expect more "professional" students getting over non-traditional and first-time in college applicants.

 

[IslandStyle808]

WTH this s***. Hey COCA why don't you actually try to improve clinical education and push for more research for all DO schools, if you want LCME and ACGME to take you seriously. This is how your quality level will go up, not by screw over pre-meds like this. Holistic my @ss.

Sorry all you applicants have to go through this, I hope you all can reach your dreams.

 

[starspells]

WTH this s***. Hey COCA why don't you actually try to improve clinical education and push for more research for all DO schools, if you want LCME and ACGME to take you seriously. This is how your quality level will go up, not by screw over pre-meds like this. Holistic my @ss.

+1