Endovascular Surgical Neuroradiology

[deleted564680]

So, I was bored and looking through ACGME fellowships and found it interesting that there are now only 6 total ACGME accredited endovascular surgical neuroradiology fellowships left.

3 in rads: Cleveland Clinic, WashU, Johns Hopkins
2 in neurosurgery: Barrow, Univ. of Florida
1 in neurology: Minnesota

Now, these are the accredited programs, and I guess there are more out there that are not accredited? Or is this fellowship truly dead. I know there was talk of this being a "bubble" subspecialty. I'm curious how it's viewed by those who are out there practicing. Is it finally dead?

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[chronicidal]

lots of unaccredited fellowships so the fellows can bill and be paid as instructor-level faculty

 

[MadRadLad]

lots of unaccredited fellowships so the fellows can bill and be paid as instructor-level faculty

Is this common in many subspecialties in radiology (or in medicine)?

 

[DrBowtie]

Is this common in many subspecialties in radiology (or in medicine)?

Relatively common in radiology.
IR, Neuro, Nucs, Peds are accredited.
All others are generally not

 

[MadRadLad]

Relatively common in radiology.
IR, Neuro, Nucs, Peds are accredited.
All others are generally not

What are the perks of accreditation? I'm just curious why some fellows can bill independently (and I assume get paid more?) while others cannot because of the status of the residency.

 

[deleted564680]

So, there are a lots of them that are not accredited? That's interesting. So, those 6 accredited programs aren't necessarily the "best" ones to do then?
Also, I'm still not sure if this is still a viable subspecialty for a radiologist

 

[DrBowtie]

What are the perks of accreditation? I'm just curious why some fellows can bill independently (and I assume get paid more?) while others cannot because of the status of the residency.

ACGME basically makes you a learner and is more controlled and consistent on educational requirements. You can't sign out your own cases.

Non accredited gives more flexibility, more creativity in terms of crafting fellowship components and the ability to sign out your own cases. This may not lead to a higher salary as they use some of your billable work to subsidize your fellowship spot.

 

[deleted564680]

So it would seem that it would be better to be in an accredited program since it's more "legitimate" and focused on learning. Learning > money. Right?

 

[DrBowtie]

So it would seem that it would be better to be in an accredited program since it's more "legitimate" and focused on learning. Learning > money. Right?

Some subspecialties none are accredited so it's not really the distinction. It's a program by program evaluation.

Secondly, by the time you are a fellow, autonomy is part of learning. Signing off your own stuff in a semi protected environment IS education. So I wouldn't use that as a decider. Plenty of ACGME programs scutting their fellows out for non educational tasks.

 

[deleted564680]

Makes sense. Thanks.

So, I should assume endovascular neuroradiology is probably oversaturated and undesirable these days then as the rumors state.

 

[shark2000]

Makes sense. Thanks.

So, I should assume endovascular neuroradiology is probably oversaturated and undesirable these days then as the rumors state.

Yes but you are still a neuroradiologist and can do diagnostics.

 

[deleted564680]

Yes but you are still a neuroradiologist and can do diagnostics.

True. Yay for extra training

 

[fzwarrior]

lots of unaccredited fellowships so the fellows can bill and be paid as instructor-level faculty

So how much do fellows usually make during those 3 yrs?

 

[shark2000]

So how much do fellows usually make during those 3 yrs?

They get paid 1 million dollars a year. How much do you expect a fellow to get paid?

 

[badasshairday]

Most are not accredited like most fellowships in rads besides VIR and neuro. I would say neurointerventional, particularly stroke interventional is on the cusp of being the next biggest thing in medicine after cardiac angioplasty and stenting. So much so that VIR guys like myself want to learn stroke.