Engineer changing to Med School track... is it worthwhile?..HELP!

[pimpmybones]

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[pimpmybones]

Dont do it Med skool sucks..but you would be a shoe-in for ortho...if ur 1/2 decent!

 

[durfen]

Ok. I am an Engineering female at a large engineering company. (technical females are a great asset to the company). I have been out of school almost two years

I'm a CS and Bio major with about the same overall and worse BCPM than your projection. I have acceptances and I'm waiting on a bunch of other great schools. Granted I am going straight out of school, but this shouldn't matter since you are only two years out of school. So do not get discouraged by what you see on SDN. My experience has been that top med schools love engineers. In my case, I intend to use the engineering degree towards something useful as am academic.

The problem is that you've already got a well-paying job.
If your only reason for going to med school is your father, then you should think twice. You cannot cure everybody in medicine, and you will encounter disappointments when a patient that was doing well dies, or you make a mistake that injures a patient (maybe even fatally). This means you have responsibility and you need to be prepared for being as helpless as you were in your father's situation as well as helpful.

Make sure you shadow some physicians in difficult specialties (i.e surgery) before you choose medicine (and I'm not talking an hour here or there. Try 17 in one day.)

Bottom line: make absolutely sure you want it, especially since you already have a job you like.

 

[8744]

Those who are not engineers or engineering majors please sign off of this thread...It's OK...I'll wait....

Are they gone?

Okay, here's how bad residency training can suck. I am on call tonight. I have been working solid since 0630 this morning and this (Midnight) is my first real break in the action. My pager is still going off almost non-stop.

For the last several days I have been in the grip of a wierd gastrointestinal bug. I can go about an hour or two between bouts. I am thinking of asking for an IV and a liter of fluid. Going home is out of the question. I can't just say, "Hey, I'm not feeling well, I'm taking the rest of the day (er, night) off."

I am carrying three pagers. I have to set up a little communications command post in the crapper with my cell phone because the pagers don't stop and I have to answer them. Plus I'm admitting patients from the ED to all of the medicine serivces which is a full time job that won't let up until five of six AM. (I am off service from EM which means I am a reciever, not a giver...and it is indeed better to give than recieve)

You cannot go home. You cannot call in sick because to do so will screw over one of your buddies who will be called in to cover for you. You cannot say, "Look, I'm tired, I need a break," or, "Hey, I'm going to lunch and I'll be back in an hour." Kiss this kind of thing goodbye.

I have this Q4 (every fourth day) and most of my 20 months of residency have been more or less like this except I have to admit this is the worst call month of my career. I have call just like this on Friday. I will get out on Saturday morning at about 10 AM but I have to go in again on Sunday morning to work like a dog until Monday morning. Hopefully I will be over this bug. The Weekend after I have call on Saturday so essentially, I will have worked three weeks without a day off (unless you count a crappy post-call day when you are to tired to do anything but sleep as a day off).

So think about it. If I knew about this when I was an engineer I would have reconsidered.

 

[lil pook]

no no no no no!!!!!

ex engineer here, and i am currently kicking myself for making such a stupid decision.

you give up your life to do go through years of schooling that are an intellectual bore, while the administration treats you like a child with absolutely no respect.

then, you get to the hospital 3rd year where you are treated even worse. people are condescending a$$holes to you and treat you like you are scum of the earth.

then you get to residency and really have no life.

so, yeah, give it all up and see how happy it makes you. 👎

 

[TheRealDrDorian]

Those who are not engineers or engineering majors please sign off of this thread...It's OK...I'll wait....

So think about it. If I knew about this when I was an engineer I would have reconsidered.

Out of curiosity (no disrespect meant by the following comment), why not go back to engineering if you are so unhappy?

 

[IDontKnow]

This thread has really got me thinking about my future...I currently work for a really big name engineering company, and also have an acceptance to a top 20 medical school for Fall '07....I'm so confused as to what i want to do...I love to help people, I still volunteer at an ER clinic, and tutor children at a local childrens hospital....

Pros of being a doctor in my opinion:

1. the knowledge doctors possess
2. sense of fullfillment after helping someone
3.opportunity to go volunteer for organizations such as doctors without borders
4. setting up free clinics for the underserved
5. being a role model
6. financial stability (seems like it's not as lucrative anymore)

Cons:

1. Huge time commitment
2. High stress
3. insurance companies
4. malpractice

But i still don't get if there are so many negative traits associated with pursuing a healthcare profession as a physician, why are there still so many people applying to medical school...and spending endless hours on SDN finding answers on how to get into medical school.

My friend's older brother is Urologist in his early 30s, and seems to be doing extremely well for himself...3rd year as a doctor at his current practice, now has partner status and makes well over $350,000...That seems like a lot of money to me...


sorry, I know my post is extremely random

 

[sirus_virus]

This thread has really got me thinking about my future...I currently work for a really big name engineering company, and also have an acceptance to a top 20 medical school for Fall '07....I'm so confused as to what i want to do...I love to help people, I still volunteer at an ER clinic, and tutor children at a local childrens hospital....

Pros of being a doctor in my opinion:

1. the knowledge doctors possess
2. sense of fullfillment after helping someone
3.opportunity to go volunteer for organizations such as doctors without borders
4. setting up free clinics for the underserved
5. being a role model
6. financial stability (seems like it's not as lucrative anymore)

Cons:

1. Huge time commitment
2. High stress
3. insurance companies
4. malpractice

But i still don't get if there are so many negative traits associated with pursuing a healthcare profession as a physician, why are there still so many people applying to medical school...and spending endless hours on SDN finding answers on how to get into medical school.

My friend's older brother is Urologist in his early 30s, and seems to be doing extremely well for himself...3rd year as a doctor at his current practice, now has partner status and makes well over $350,000...That seems like a lot of money to me...


sorry, I know my post is extremely random

Because your typical premed:

1) Thinks "doctor" is a really cool title.
2) Is clueless about how bad things could get as a doctor.
3) Has external pressure to become a doctor.
4) Likes to suffer for nothing.
5) only knows science, hence cannot tell when real life stuff is going bad until it happens to them.

 

[HannahDH]

(I'm 24 now) Is it worth it to give up a good career like engineering? Help!

It really depends on what you want to do for your life now and down the road. You need to ask yourself if you are able to be fully dedicated to your work. As a female doctor myself; an Immunologist I work 10~15 hours a day, sometimes longer. Luckily I do not have to work everyday but there are days I worked over 70 hour weeks. You need to ask yourself why you want to attend med school and why you choose this path.
If you want to go because of money, prestige, etc., it's probably not a good idea. Unless you come from a wealthy family, med school is very expensive and that's if you can successfully graduate and start your residency. If you bail out in the middle of it, you would have a huge loan to pay for 🙁 . I remember a film called "Patch Adams" a true story of a doctor who enrolled himself into a medical school at the age of 40. It's never too late to do anything if you can put your mind to it. Of course, it's always better to sometime early but soemtimes things happen.

Luckily for me, I knew medicine was the direction I wanted to go when I was in high school. But I can tell you medical school isn't easy, it requires a full dedication and lots of studying and fewer hours of sleep. You think med school is bad, wait until the first year of your internship, then comes residency. You will need to sacrafice alot to get through those steps; such as less weekend fun, less time to see your boyfriend, perhaps family and more hitting the books and doing research. I got through all that and it wasn't easy. I am currently 28 and just finished my 3rd year of residency last year.... if I had to do it all over again, I would. But that's because this is what I love doing, and you need to ask yourself if this is what you will love be doing.
I suggest you do some volunteer work at a local hospital, see if you can handle the stress, see if you like the atmosphere.

 

[TheRealDrDorian]

Because your typical premed:

1) Thinks "doctor" is a really cool title.
2) Is clueless about how bad things could get as a doctor.
3) Has external pressure to become a doctor.
4) Likes to suffer for nothing.
5) only knows science, hence cannot tell when real life stuff is going bad until it happens to them.

Just my thoughts. No harm meant to anyone.

1) Call me "Mister" after I'm a "Doctor" and see if I care.
2) My father was a doctor, and our current relationship is not as strong as it could be because of it. Not to mention him coming home exhausted daily, and being stressed constantly. I wouldn't call myself (nor other premeds) clueless.
3) Never was influenced into medicine, was actually pressured to NOT enter medicine and pursue engineering.
4) I have to agree with you here with the suffering, but the "for nothing?" Wow. Wouldn't you have to agree becoming a physician is just a tad selfless?
5) I don't even understand this point.

I guess I'm atypical.

 

[HannahDH]

youall need to understand that the popularity of medicine is historical. Back in the day (30 years ago) docs took wednesdays off, worked their own hours, slowed down a little when they wanted to, got paid well, they were their own bosses. It really is a totally different arena now. I dont know any physicians who come in with a smile on their faces. The threat of lawsuits and losing everything you haveis very real,I feel it. The lack of autonomy is becoming the norm. When you graduatemedschool nobody can open up their small office and treat patients. You wouldnt survive financially. And that is pretty much the appeal in medicine. Your independence. Now most physicians in the future will be employed by somebody. YOu will be punching a clock. How appealing is that? I can be a teacher or an engineer if I wanted to be employed, The working conditions are not very good the pay is not what it used to be and they are cutting medicare some more this year. And the work is not that exciting. You dont excited when you diagnose pneumonia or you do a rectal or you tell someone they have high blood pressure. The work becomes totally mundane. When i was pre med i had this job at a health club at a luxury real estate development. and i was in the gym.. and one of the members brought his girlfriend who was a either a hand surgery resident or .. i cant remember. I told her I was pre med.. she begged and pleaded with me to consider something else.... this was in the early nineties.. I thought man this chick is crazy.. turns out she was right and I feel pretty much the same way.

Im not saying its the worse thing ever., Im saying many many things have to change for it to become a nice job again.

Things change because there are too many doctors today. Too many bad ones to be quite honest. Your apporach seems shallow and bitter. You become a doctor to save lives, to make a difference or try to make a difference, not to be all prestige and own your own clinic/practice and make millions. Being a doctor, like myself is to help make a difference even in 1 person. I am not in for the money and yes, the roadway to become a doctor is harsh and stressful. But the feeling of saving or even helping 1 person a day make me feel it's all worthwhile.

Being a doctor is no different than being a police officer. We are here to serve the community and help make a difference.

 

[HannahDH]

Okay, here's how bad residency training can suck. I am on call tonight. I have been working solid since 0630 this morning and this (Midnight) is my first real break in the action. My pager is still going off almost non-stop.

For the last several days I have been in the grip of a wierd gastrointestinal bug. I can go about an hour or two between bouts. I am thinking of asking for an IV and a liter of fluid. Going home is out of the question. I can't just say, "Hey, I'm not feeling well, I'm taking the rest of the day (er, night) off."

I am carrying three pagers. I have to set up a little communications command post in the crapper with my cell phone because the pagers don't stop and I have to answer them. Plus I'm admitting patients from the ED to all of the medicine serivces which is a full time job that won't let up until five of six AM. (I am off service from EM which means I am a reciever, not a giver...and it is indeed better to give than recieve)

You cannot go home. You cannot call in sick because to do so will screw over one of your buddies who will be called in to cover for you. You cannot say, "Look, I'm tired, I need a break," or, "Hey, I'm going to lunch and I'll be back in an hour." Kiss this kind of thing goodbye.

I have this Q4 (every fourth day) and most of my 20 months of residency have been more or less like this except I have to admit this is the worst call month of my career. I have call just like this on Friday. I will get out on Saturday morning at about 10 AM but I have to go in again on Sunday morning to work like a dog until Monday morning. Hopefully I will be over this bug. The Weekend after I have call on Saturday so essentially, I will have worked three weeks without a day off (unless you count a crappy post-call day when you are to tired to do anything but sleep as a day off).

oh shush 🙂 It's not bad, if I can do it, so can you. I just finished up my residency last June. You did hit some valid point there, when you are sick, it's tough to do anything about it because you know the next person will be called in if you leave. The problem is you cannot leave and it'll look bad on you if you try to do anything. But you and I know going into this so I feel you. You will do just fine 😀
One day you will finish your residency and perhaps we will work at the same hospital Then I'd be your boss

 

[IDontKnow]

See the thing that really draws me to medicine is the possibility of traveling to 3rd world countries and helping people, and just influencing the people you come across...I really believe that becoming a physician gives one an opportunity to really serve humanity....but then I also can't escape reality and forget about how hard is it to help people when you have crazy insurance companies breathing down your neck...I hate insurance companies

 

[sirus_virus]

Just my thoughts. No harm meant to anyone.

1) Call me "Mister" after I'm a "Doctor" and see if I care.
2) My father was a doctor, and our current relationship is not as strong as it could be because of it. Not to mention him coming home exhausted daily, and being stressed constantly. I wouldn't call myself (nor other premeds) clueless.
3) Never was influenced into medicine, was actually pressured to NOT enter medicine and pursue engineering.
4) I have to agree with you here with the suffering, but the "for nothing?" Wow. Wouldn't you have to agree becoming a physician is just a tad selfless?
5) I don't even understand this point.

I guess I'm atypical.

This means you are not the typical premed. I was just explaining why medshcools are very competitive even with the ridiculous state of medicine.

 

[IDontKnow]

Also, I don't want to look back and say, "man, I wish I had just gone to medical school, I can't believe I gave up an acceptance." Someone once told me that, "when an opportunity comes your way, just do it, and people who're not willing to take risks, can't accomplish anything"

 

[Eric Lindros]

Not sure if anyone mentioned this or not, but one aspect of engineering that is very different from medicine is opportunity to travel. I work as an engineer for a large medical device company. In a few years, I would likely be making trips to Europe, Japan, etc to visit with doctors, patients, etc. As a young engineer, I see this as a huge PRO. On the other hand, it starts to suck as you get more involved in family life.

Those who are doctors, feel free to correct me, but I believe travel opportunity is slim to none in medicine. You are likely to never see the light of day outside the hospital. Again, this could be a pro or a con depending if you like to get out and see the world.

 

[Monarch Kong]

This is quite possibly the most depressing thread I've read in a long time. Surely there's something to look forward to in medicine? You people that post responses that sound depressed, bitter and cynical: Why are you still in medicine then? Why do you still search through these forums if you're angry at medicine?

Let's hear some positive stories about medicine please.

 

[IDontKnow]

This is quite possibly the most depressing thread I've read in a long time. Surely there's something to look forward to in medicine? You people that post responses that sound depressed, bitter and cynical: Why are you still in medicine then? Why do you still search through these forums if you're angry at medicine?

Let's hear some positive stories about medicine please.

I totally agree...I saw this thread yesterday and I was like man this is crazy, and to top it all off I got another speeding ticket last night....talk about feeling down!

 

[sirus_virus]

This is quite possibly the most depressing thread I've read in a long time. Surely there's something to look forward to in medicine? You people that post responses that sound depressed, bitter and cynical: Why are you still in medicine then? Why do you still search through these forums if you're angry at medicine?

Let's hear some positive stories about medicine please.

I don't know too many positives besides the typical "You get to heal people".

 

[NickRiviera]

Let's hear some positive stories about medicine please.

Start a new thread if you'd like, the OP asked a serious question.

 

[sirus_virus]

See the thing that really draws me to medicine is the possibility of traveling to 3rd world countries and helping people, and just influencing the people you come across...I really believe that becoming a physician gives one an opportunity to really serve humanity....but then I also can't escape reality and forget about how hard is it to help people when you have crazy insurance companies breathing down your neck...I hate insurance companies

Especially when they are waiting to sue the crap out of you.

 

[8744]

Just my thoughts. No harm meant to anyone.

1) Call me "Mister" after I'm a "Doctor" and see if I care.


I guess I'm atypical.

You'll care. Trust me. Everybody who knows me who doesn't call me by my first name calls me "Doctor Bear." When you get comfortable with being a physician it will seem natural. Lord knows there aren't many other benefits to being a resident. Might as well enjoy the respect that you will hopefully have earned.

 

[8744]

This is quite possibly the most depressing thread I've read in a long time. Surely there's something to look forward to in medicine? You people that post responses that sound depressed, bitter and cynical: Why are you still in medicine then? Why do you still search through these forums if you're angry at medicine?

Let's hear some positive stories about medicine please.

Who's angry? I'm just giving you the unvarnished truth about one aspect of medical training. When the pager goes off at 3AM with five new admissions I betcha' you will not, repeat not, be skipping happily down to the Emergency Department with a light step and the beating heart of school girl thinking about her first love.

You will say to yourself, "This mother ****er blows like a big dog and it ain't worth it." That's why people go into the EROAD specialties. They get a taste of the residency lifestyle in medical school and opt out.

Like I said, I've done twenty months, more or less, of this and my enthusiasm is spent.

Mine is not the minority opinion either. While it may be true that I am almost done with it, that others have had it and still have it harder than me, and that I have grown a uterus, it doesn't change the fact that nobody likes residency, at least not in the ways you think. I only like it because my friends and I are all in the same ridiculous boat, many of us former professionals in other fields, working for Taco Jockey wages in work conditions that any other American would laugh at if he were asked to do the same. There's a certain madcap humor to it.

I am going to eschew the usual disclaimer that medicine is a rewarding career. You will have to decide this for yourself. But I would say that it is better to know what to expect then to get blindsided during the first week of intern year.

 

[8744]

Out of curiosity (no disrespect meant by the following comment), why not go back to engineering if you are so unhappy?

Who said I was unhappy? It's a job. Large parts of it suck but I expect it will get better once I stop doing off-service rotations, especially those in which I am nothing but low-cost labor for somebody else's bottom line.

Why not go back to engineering?

1. Quarter of million in debt.

2. Out of engineering for six years, would take a couple of years to get back into it not to mention that my PE license has expired and I'd have to retake the test.

3. Will make more as an EM attending, easily three times as much, than I could reasonably expect to make a self-employed engineer.

4. Wife, kids, dogs to support. I've done enough career switching and my wife is getting tired of the switching, being poor, and residency in general. She is especially angry that her husband with a doctoral level degree and twelve years of higher education gets paid less than Frank, the New Guy, down at Home Depot. And she ain't buying any of the justifications people throw around for why this is so.

5. It's cool being an Emergency Medicine physician. Sorry. It is.

It's mostly for money reasons, like everything else.

 

[8744]

Also, I don't want to look back and say, "man, I wish I had just gone to medical school, I can't believe I gave up an acceptance." Someone once told me that, "when an opportunity comes your way, just do it, and people who're not willing to take risks, can't accomplish anything"

Nobody said don't go to medical school. We're just trying to give you an idea of what to expect. Praemonitus Praemunitis.

 

[dutchman]

Like I said, the only reason I am leaving my engineering job for medschool is beacause my school offered me good money. Short of that, I would have folded my tent. It is a tough career choice, but somebody has to do it. If doctors however start growing some balls and fighting to gain control of their profession, maybe medicine will be worth something in the future. I am however not convinced physicians are capable or willing to fight, so no optimism here.

 

[sirus_virus]

Nobody said don't go to medical school. We're just trying to give you an idea of what to expect. Praemonitus Praemunitis.

Actually, my family doctor told me not to go to medschool. That is just one of many doctors that have told me the same.

 

[OncoCaP]

Actually, my family doctor told me not to go to medschool. That is just one of many doctors that have told me the same.

Numerous physicians (an opthamologist, couple of family practice docs) have told me not to go. They said they would not do it again and one guy actually got out of medicine and is running an EHR company now; he basically does engineering and management work with this software says he could never go back to medicine. All talked about wanting to quit at various points and not doing it out of sheer willpower or because they had loans to pay off. I worked some with a surgeon who was upset about many things, but overall he is happy to be doing what he does despite all the other junk he puts up with. Overall, a majority of physicians I spoke with seem happy with their jobs.

I'm not going into this for myself (I have visions of residency with my wife being basically a single parent and my kids looking for a father figure in their life because their dad is never there -- I'll do my best for them, but what can you do when yo have no energy left when you get home). Then again, I traveled frequently with my engineering and management jobs, so it's not much different in a way. I traveled usually a week or two at a time, so it wasn't that bad. My wife likes the idea that I'll be sleeping at the house at least every other day or maybe every third day (worst case -- I have trouble going more than 72 hours without sleep) and thinks it is cool that she'll get to at least see me even if I'm just sleeping when I'm at home during the worst days of residency. One of my buddies spent 6 months in Japan visiting his kids through Yahoo chat (with the Web-cam); not exactly ideal either. Engineering is becoming more global, so if you're not in the same state, it doesn't matter much that you have free time if your family can't see you for months. (I realize that not all engineering and management jobs are like this). Also, in engineering and management, I felt like I was mostly just producing maximum cash (I was bringing in money similar to that of a physician, so there is no financial incentive for me to switch). Too often wasn't about making the world a better place for people; I frequently had to fight for improvements that helped people as opposed to just making more money. I also felt like there was a bigger need for physicians than engineers. There are so many great engineers and managers out there. If you need one, they can be found. I expect we are going to have a shortage of physicians and trouble paying for the ones we do have; it's a perfect storm, in a way.

I'm going into medicine to serve others in what appear to be working conditions similar to the appeal of cutting up chickens in a chicken factory or as a bus boy in an all-you-can-eat restaurant (brutal minimum wage job where you cannot call in sick). It's a job that someone needs to do, no matter how bad it is. In a way the challenge appeals to me, much like some people always like to talk about how bad their life is. Some people don't mind it and actually enjoy it, much like some infantry like patroling the streets of Bagdad. It's a way of serving; I like the police officer analogy as well. From what I can tell, I will love this and love it more than being a police officer or infantry, for example, even though there are many bad things about it. There is only one way to know for sure: do it.

P.S.: The scene of the "command center" in the toilet was priceless, PB! Maybe you can start wearing diapers like the astronauts ... uhg, what's that's fecal smell? Somebody call housekeeping. Oh that's me; got the runs again and I need to change my diaper ... I'll finish these two and then go clean up. 🙁

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Do you ever notice how there are like the same three posters who always post the exact same doom and gloom advice in every single one of these threads? Why did I open this thread?

Anyway, op, determine how much you'll like the day in/day out life of being a physician and compare it with your current job. There's no right answer (well, aside from the fact that you should be a little skeptical of some sdn posters -- post history = great tool).

 

[8744]

P.S.: The scene of the "command center" in the toilet was priceless, PB! Maybe you can start wearing diapers like the astronauts ... uhg, what's that's fecal smell? Somebody call housekeeping. Oh that's me; got the runs again and I need to change my diaper ... I'll finish these two and then go clean up. 🙁

Let me tell you another true story about something that has happened to me several times and kind of shows you the mentality of residency.

I shower, brush my teeth, and shave every day. This takes about five or six minutes (ten tops) because I have a short haircut, a good razor (Gillette Mach 3) and am not a metrosexual. I was on call a few weeks back and my senior resident became somewhat irate because I had "vanished" for fifteen minutes in the early morning hours and she couldn't get a hold of me.

When I said I was showering, she looked at me with contempt and said, sarcastically, "Must be nice."

To which the only response is something to the effect of, "I shower and shave every day because I am not a **** bag."

It's a little thing but the resentment towards me for taking a few minutes to attend to the basic business of life was far out of proportion to the offense. Can you imagine working at any other job where someone would resent something like this?

 

[OncoCaP]

Let me tell you another true story about something that has happened to me several times and kind of shows you the mentality of residency.

... I was on call a few weeks back and my senior resident became somewhat irate because I had "vanished" for fifteen minutes in the early morning hours and she couldn't get a hold of me.

When I said I was showering, she looked at me with contempt and said, sarcastically, "Must be nice."

To which the only response is something to the effect of, "I shower and shave every day because I am not a **** bag."

...

Gah. That one's below the belt. Maybe growing a beard, wearing one of those surgical caps, changing the undies / scrubs with a heavy application of deodrant will do the trick of making that senior resident happy by keeping the "freshen up" time at 5 minutes or less.

One thing I'm wondering about: I seem to remember that ~1 in 4 medical students is depressed and many are taking psychiatric medications at some point in med school (http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/353/11/1085 Sept 2005). I wonder if the issue is worse in residency because the stress is higher and hours longer. In any case, the stress isn't just a matter of a few disgruntled students and physicians. It really does appear to be a challenge and even for physicians the situation is not that great.

"Medical students are more prone to depression than their nonmedical peers. Researchers recently surveyed first- and second-year medical students at the University of California, San Francisco (UCSF), and found that about one fourth were depressed.1 Others have suggested that although the rate of depression among students entering medical school is similar to that among other people of similar ages, the prevalence increases disproportionately over the course of medical school.2 Laurie Raymond, a psychiatrist and the director of the Office of Advising Resources at Harvard Medical School in Boston, said that she met individually with 208 medical students — about one quarter of the student body — between July 2003 and July 2005. Thirty-one students (15 percent) presented with self-described depression — 20 of them with transient, "reactive" depressed mood that improved with supportive counseling or therapy and 11 who had a history of major depression. The majority (130 students) consulted Raymond because of concern about academic performance, but major depression was diagnosed in 25 of them. A fourth-year medical student at Harvard estimated that three quarters of her close friends in medical school have taken psychiatric medications at some point during the four years.

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/289/23/3161
Confronting Depression and Suicide in Physicians
A Consensus Statement

Claudia Center, JD; Miriam Davis, PhD; Thomas Detre, MD; Daniel E. Ford, MD, MPH; Wendy Hansbrough, BSN; Herbert Hendin, MD; John Laszlo, MD; David A. Litts, OD; John Mann, MD; Peter A. Mansky, MD; Robert Michels, MD; Steven H. Miles, MD; Roy Proujansky, MD; Charles F. Reynolds III, MD; Morton M. Silverman, MD


JAMA. 2003;289:3161-3166.

Objective To encourage treatment of depression and prevention of suicide in physicians by calling for a shift in professional attitudes and institutional policies to support physicians seeking help.

*********
The numbers seem pretty consistent:
25-40% of medical students and physicians have symptoms of clinicial depression
(http://meds.queensu.ca/~meds2008/DepressioninPhysicians.ppt). Suicide rates are also higher for this group than for the general population.

http://www.afsp.org/index.cfm?page_id=05804002-E8F4-13AB-2D4B97A0815A2744
Physician Depression and Suicide Prevention Project

In October 2002, AFSP sponsored a workshop to address the disproportionately high rates of suicide among physicians and physicians in training. Studies in the last 40 years have confirmed that physicians die by suicide more frequently than others of their gender and age in both the general population and other professional occupations. On the average, death by suicide is about 70 percent more likely among male physicians in the United States than among other professionals, and 250 percent to 400 percent higher among female physicians. Unlike almost all other population groups in which men die by suicide about four times more frequently than women, among physicians the suicide rate is very similar for both men and women.

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My take is that if you know this is stress/depression is a common part of medical school and being a physician, you can prepare yourself and get the medical help you need sooner rather than feeling guilty about getting help because you think that everyone else (other medical students, physicians) is handling the problems just fine. I wonder how the numbers compare to soldiers who experience combat for extended periods of time. If you know this is going to challenge you in this way, you can prepare yourself and make sure you have a support network in place (fellow classmates, family, etc.) and improve your chances of remaining sane even in the darkest days of your education and career. There are many rewarding and wonderful aspects of medical school and being a physician, but there are problems as well.

 

[8744]

It's the same with meals and breaks and why I think the "old school" attendings with their stories of how hard they had it are so full of crap. Hospitals today are high throughput patient mills compared to the boarding hotels they were forty years ago. A point I want to reinforce to you guys is that "call," something you will be doing from three to seven years depending on the choices you make, is not "call" at all but "work" and just an extension of the work day. In fact, on this rotation we work harder on call than we do during the day because not only do we admit for the other teams but we have to cross-cover their patients.

 

[8744]

Gah. That one's below the belt. Maybe growing a beard, wearing one of those surgical caps, changing the undies / scrubs with a heavy application of deodrant will do the trick of making that senior resident happy.

One thing I'm wondering about: I seem to remember that ~1 in 4 medical students is depressed and many are taking psychiatric medications at some point in med school (http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/353/11/1085 Sept 2005). I wonder if the issue is worse in residency because the stress is higher and hours longer. In any case, the stress isn't just a matter of a few disgruntled students. It really does appear to be a challenge and even for physicians the situation is not that great.

"Medical students are more prone to depression than their nonmedical peers. Researchers recently surveyed first- and second-year medical students at the University of California, San Francisco (UCSF), and found that about one fourth were depressed.1 Others have suggested that although the rate of depression among students entering medical school is similar to that among other people of similar ages, the prevalence increases disproportionately over the course of medical school.2 Laurie Raymond, a psychiatrist and the director of the Office of Advising Resources at Harvard Medical School in Boston, said that she met individually with 208 medical students — about one quarter of the student body — between July 2003 and July 2005. Thirty-one students (15 percent) presented with self-described depression — 20 of them with transient, "reactive" depressed mood that improved with supportive counseling or therapy and 11 who had a history of major depression. The majority (130 students) consulted Raymond because of concern about academic performance, but major depression was diagnosed in 25 of them. A fourth-year medical student at Harvard estimated that three quarters of her close friends in medical school have taken psychiatric medications at some point during the four years.

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/289/23/3161
Confronting Depression and Suicide in Physicians
A Consensus Statement

Claudia Center, JD; Miriam Davis, PhD; Thomas Detre, MD; Daniel E. Ford, MD, MPH; Wendy Hansbrough, BSN; Herbert Hendin, MD; John Laszlo, MD; David A. Litts, OD; John Mann, MD; Peter A. Mansky, MD; Robert Michels, MD; Steven H. Miles, MD; Roy Proujansky, MD; Charles F. Reynolds III, MD; Morton M. Silverman, MD


JAMA. 2003;289:3161-3166.

Objective To encourage treatment of depression and prevention of suicide in physicians by calling for a shift in professional attitudes and institutional policies to support physicians seeking help.

*********

My take is that if you know this is stress/depression is a common part of medical school and being a physician, you can prepare yourself and get the medical help you need sooner rather than feeling guilty about getting help because you think that everyone else (other medical students, physicians) is handling the problems just fine.

Depression is a clinical diagnosis and an organic disease. I don't think hardship causes depression. None of my friends seem depressed, just pissed off.

 

[OncoCaP]

Depression is a clinical diagnosis and an organic disease. I don't think hardship causes depression. None of my friends seem depressed, just pissed off.

So why is the suicide rate so much higher??? Does medicine just attract people with clinical depression or suicide potential? Maybe these symptoms are just the results of stress; I'm not sure and am curious about it.

No matter what the source, being prepared to deal with a high level of stress seems like a good idea for med students & physicians.

 

[8744]

I also want to clarify something. A lot of you are reading too much into my dislike for residency. There is no deep-seated angst or metaphysical conflict of any sort involved. I dislike it intensely because the hours suck and the pay is terrible.

If it was a sixty hour a week job that payed $70,000 a year, for example, with no sleep deprivation involved I'd like it just fine.

 

[8744]

Do you ever notice how there are like the same three posters who always post the exact same doom and gloom advice in every single one of these threads? Why did I open this thread?

Anyway, op, determine how much you'll like the day in/day out life of being a physician and compare it with your current job. There's no right answer (well, aside from the fact that you should be a little skeptical of some sdn posters -- post history = great tool).

It's not doom and gloom. It's the truth. And somebody with a good and perfectly respectable career like engineering needs to think it through carefully.

That's why engineers are different than most pre-meds. We have a respected, well-paying job ahead of us if we want it.

 

[Eric Lindros]

I like engineering fine but it's a little too business-like for me. Too much cubicle work, document drafting, paper pushing, project planning, etc. Hell, I never perform any of the tests I propose and I actually envy the techs that do, even though I am getting paid more than they are.

 

[Eric Lindros]

That's why engineers are different than most pre-meds. We have a respected, well-paying job ahead of us if we want it.

Except surgeons. Surgeons don't respect anybody except themselves and maybe other surgeons. Case in point: I helped design a tool used by a surgeon to implant a device. In all honesty, a 4 year old on a bad day could use this tool properly. When the surgeon couldn’t get it to work, he simply told me, “This is a terrible design and whoever made it needs to be fired.”

 

[NickRiviera]

Except surgeons. Surgeons don't respect anybody except themselves and maybe other surgeons. Case in point: I helped design a tool used by a surgeon to implant a device. In all honesty, a 4 year old on a bad day could use this tool properly. When the surgeon couldn’t get it to work, he simply told me, “This is a terrible design and whoever made it needs to be fired.”

Actually, they call that Usability Engineering or Human Factors. It truly is your fault for that poor design no matter how good you think it is. If the surgeon cannot use your product, you didn't design it right. Period.

 

[OncoCaP]

Actually, they call that Usability Engineering or Human Factors. It truly is your fault for that poor design no matter how good you think it is. If the surgeon cannot use your product, you didn't design it right. Period.

The solution is to put it into a child-proof container with a label that says "only to be opened by the licensed surgeon performing the procedure -- opening by any other person constitutes improper use and voids all warrantees and product liability." That should keep the "all thumbs" surgeons away from it.

Seriously, tho', I have met some surgeons that at least act like they respect engineers and we shouldn't give them a hard time. Most physicians, including surgeons, that I have met are very personable and caring (all that may very well change when I become a med student and they work hard to put the fear of God into me and hold me to their high standards).

 

[8744]

Wait, I don't mean doctors aren't respected because we are, just that you can have a decent, respectable career as an engineering major while most other pre-meds are fit for medical school and nothing else.

 

[OncoCaP]

So Panda, which is more mentally stressful and physicially demanding ... Marine Corps Basic Training or however many weeks of EM Residency?

 

[Eric Lindros]

Actually, they call that Usability Engineering or Human Factors. It truly is your fault for that poor design no matter how good you think it is. If the surgeon cannot use your product, you didn't design it right. Period.

Actually the surgeon could use it fine, as could every other surgeon we had use it (total of 7)....... he did it out of spite because he didn't like the design. IE, he was being an dingus.

and usability engineering.... just because 1 person doesn't know how to screw in the lightbulb,well that doesn't mean it was designed wrong 🙄

 

[Eric Lindros]

Seriously, tho', I have met some surgeons that at least act like they respect engineers and we shouldn't give them a hard time. Most physicians, including surgeons, that I have met are very personable and caring (all that may very well change when I become a med student and they work hard to put the fear of God into me and hold me to their high standards).

Here's my experiences when dealing with surgeons (as an engineer):

They will make every possible attempt to **** on an engineer's design, even if the design has been validated and is really a good one. From my experiences, many times they do it out of spite or just to prove a point that no smart-ass engineer is better than them.

 

[OncoCaP]

Here's my experiences when dealing with surgeons (as an engineer):

They will make every possible attempt to **** on an engineer's design, even if the design has been validated and is really a good one. From my experiences, many times they do it out of spite or just to prove a point that no smart-ass engineer is better than them.

Ouch. I only dealt with one General Surgeon who was head of a practice (and he loved the product, so that went very well). When I was volunteering at a hospital with several invasive cardiologists they seemed more tolerant with equipment problems than I was. They had all kinds of cool toys and would do clinical studies on new ones. What I just couldn't believe how the (established, non-study) equipment would go down (freeze up) and they were so patient (as in willing to wait) in rebooting it and didn't seem to miss a beat. I would have expected more from the equipment vendor, personally. Some of them talked like sailors, but I didn't hold that against them, necessarily. Maybe the surgeons and invasive cardiologists I was around were just more laid back .... ?

 

[heathen]

I posted it in some other thread, but can someone direct me to a study about job satisfaction of engineers vs doctors? Also, dentistry might be something that the OP may want to consider, at least my dentist uncles seem to think engineering knowledge really help out in that field. It is also a nice 8-5 job, with comparable pay.

 

[dutchman]

I posted it in some other thread, but can someone direct me to a study about job satisfaction of engineers vs doctors? Also, dentistry might be something that the OP may want to consider, at least my dentist uncles seem to think engineering knowledge really help out in that field. It is also a nice 8-5 job, with comparable pay.

There is no comparison there. There is no survey out there that has doctors remotely close to engineers in job satisfaction. Actually you will be surprised what other jobs have better satisfaction.

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/moneymag/bestjobs/top50/index.html
The Top 50 More jobs: Stats on 166 titles How MONEY picked the best jobs

1 Software engineer
2 College professor
3 Financial advisor
4 Human resources manager
5 Physician assistant
6 Market research analyst
7 Computer/IT analyst
8 Real estate appraiser
9 Pharmacist
10 Psychologist
11 Advertising manager
12 Physical therapist
13 Technical writer
14 Chiropractor
15 Medical scientist
16 Physical scientist
17 Engineer
18 Curriculum developer
19 Editor
20 Public relations specialist
21 Sales manager
22 Optometrist
23 Property manager
24 Actuary
25 Writer
26 Social service manager
27 Paralegal
28 Health services manager
29 Advertising sales agent
30 Physician/Surgeon

 

[OncoCaP]

I posted it in some other thread, but can someone direct me to a study about job satisfaction of engineers vs doctors? Also, dentistry might be something that the OP may want to consider, at least my dentist uncles seem to think engineering knowledge really help out in that field. It is also a nice 8-5 job, with comparable pay.

Here are just a few links. I'm sure there are better ones out there. A dentist does have a better lifestyle, but there are issues with being a dentist as well. I get the impression that the happiest dentists tend to be good businessmen and have their marketing down pat; they usually cater to the upper-middle class & higher income brackets.

Physician Job Satisfaction Links:
http://www.gpscholar.uthscsa.edu/gpscholar/FacultyScholars/cr/genmed/library/aimvol162pg1577.pdf

Engineer (you'll need to look up each specialty):

Chemical: http://pubs.acs.org/cen/acsnews/83/8343acsnews1.html

Electrical/Controls: http://www.isa.org/InTechTemplate.c...Management/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=56994

IT: http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_files/priv/pr_130608/Salary012407.pdf

Mechanical: http://www.isa.org/InTechTemplate.c...Management/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=56994

Also keep in mind that if you go into engineering and find out that you don't like it ... well, you spent 4 years of UG to get there.

If you go into medicine and hate it and then decide to go into business instead ... oh-oh: 4 yrs UG + 4 yrs Med School + 3 yrs or more of Residency = 11+ years spent to get there; that would hurt.

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

Wow, property manager beat out physician? They must not have spoken to my property manager. Then again, I always suspected that he really liked it when he had to evict tenants.....

 

[Captain Fantastic]

Ah, Panda. One day they'll realize you spoke the truth. Nobody likes residency.

Although when my wife became an attending (IM) she immediately got buried in "generate more revenue" that the residents are often shielded from. All she hears from the adminstration is "you must bill 9 level 4's a day." It's better than residency, but not by a lot so she tells me.