Engineer changing to Med School track... is it worthwhile?..HELP!

[Sol Rosenberg]

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I hate to sound like a broken record, but I just wanted to point something out from one of the links that OncoCap posted above:

While one has to define the word "old," the highest percentage of engineers responding to the survey fell in the 36-45 age group. Managers had an older age group, with the highest percentage at 42% responding from the 46-55 category. On the engineering side, 4% were 25 or under, while on the managers' side, 19% were 55 and older.

This supports what I was saying in my earlier post. One almost inescapable fact about engineering is that it is a young persons' field. Even if you love the job, you face a very real possibility of being replaced as you get older. Very cynical people might say that you are at a high risk of having your job outsourced to India/China/etc, but more commonly, you are simply replaced by N new college grads (N = floor(your salary/typical starting salary)). Most engineers don't stick around to see this happen and they do one of 4 things:

1. Become Managers
2. Start their own company (very difficult in my field -- you need lots of capital to start a semiconductor company, but obviously still a formal possibility)
3. Change Careers
4. Make enough money through investing/stock options that you can retire early.

Like I said, with stock option grants becoming more anemic (or non-existant from some companies -- Microsoft is one that comes to mind) option 4 becoming less and less likely, leaving 1-3 as the only viable options.

 

[dutchman]

Here are just a few links. I'm sure there are better ones out there. A dentist does have a better lifestyle, but there are issues with being a dentist as well. I get the impression that the happiest dentists tend to be good businessmen and have their marketing down pat; they usually cater to the upper-middle class & higher income brackets.

Physician Job Satisfaction Links:
http://www.gpscholar.uthscsa.edu/gpscholar/FacultyScholars/cr/genmed/library/aimvol162pg1577.pdf

Engineer (you'll need to look up each specialty):

Chemical: http://pubs.acs.org/cen/acsnews/83/8343acsnews1.html

Electrical/Controls: http://www.isa.org/InTechTemplate.c...Management/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=56994

IT: http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_files/priv/pr_130608/Salary012407.pdf

Mechanical: http://www.isa.org/InTechTemplate.c...Management/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=56994

Also keep in mind that if you go into engineering and find out that you don't like it ... well, you spent 4 years of UG to get there.

If you go into medicine and hate it and then decide to go into business instead ... oh-oh: 4 yrs UG + 4 yrs Med School + 3 yrs or more of Residency = 11+ years spent to get there; that would hurt.

As much as we like to bash primary care, did you notice they have one of the lowest dis-satisfaction percentages.Those suckers probably know something we don't know, or the survey is off.

 

[OncoCaP]

I hate to sound like a broken record, but I just wanted to point something out from one of the links that OncoCap posted above:



This supports what I was saying in my earlier post. One almost inescapable fact about engineering is that it is a young persons' field. ...

Jota: Isn't that because most of the young engineers go into management? I know most of my buddies are either in management, sales, own their own company, or getting an MBA so that they can get into management (whether project management or middle-management). If you haven't made it into management (even on a part-time basis) by the time you are 40, then you probably lack people skills, which seriously limits your career potential unless you are just so good that people will pay you a ridiculous amount of money for just your technical aptitude (these people can be hard to manage).

 

[OncoCaP]

As much as we like to bash primary care, did you notice they have one of the lowest dis-satisfaction percentages.Those suckers probably know something we don't know, or the survey is off.

Hmmm. Here is what I get when I rank them by % dissatisfied, from lowest dissatisfaction to highest. FP (near middle) & GP (near bottom) are nowhere near the best. Now peds is pretty high on the list (as is Geriatric).

NOTE: DATA from the late 1990s. If you have more recent / better data (free), by all means provide it. A lot has changed since then (things have gotten worse overall, from what I'm told).

Rank, Specialty, % dissatisfied:
1 ID 6.3
2 Nephro 9
3 Endocrino 10.2
4 Geriatric 10.7 (Elderly appreciate physicians = happy doctors?)
5 Derm 10.8
6 Med Onc 11.3
7 Ped 12.6 (Kids make physicians happy?)
8 PMnR 12.9
9 Neonatal 13
10 EM 13.3
11 Uro 13.8
12 Occu 15.2
13 NeuroS 15.2
14 Neuro 16.2
15 Cardio 16.5
16 FP 16.9 (maybe more kiddos = happiness?)
17 CT 17.8
18 Pulmo 17.9
19 Rheu 18
20 Ortho 19.3
21 Gastro 19.5
22 Ped Psych 19.8 (Psych kiddos = no fun?)
23 IM 20.3
24 GS 20.4
25 Optho 21
26 Psych 22
27 Plastic 23.1
28 OB/GYN 24.2
29 GP 25 (no kiddos = more complaints = less joy?)
30 Gyn 25
31 ENT 25.2

Here is one hypothesis for the GP/FP difference: What I was told is that people who deal with the elderly and kids tend to be happy because they don't really complain much. Adults can be complainers and you might get a lot of people with self-inflicted issues. (Don't beat me up for this ... that's simply one physician's interpretation ... feel free to provide your own hypothesis).

Here is more analysis of what seems to be the same survey:

http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/162/14/1577

As always, these surveys represent averages and very few people are exactly average. Job satisfaction seems to vary a lot with specialty for both engineers and physicians. However, typically (percentage-wise), there are fewer dissatisfied engineers compared to physicians. (~2X to 3X difference). Your mileage may vary.

http://www.rwjf.org/reports/grr/027069.htm
"THE PROBLEM

In the health care reform environment of the 1990s, career satisfaction became a serious issue among physicians, as documented by a number of studies conducted in the late 1980s and early 1990s. For example, in a survey of young physicians, 40 percent said they would not go to medical school if they had the choice to make over again. This was in contrast to the public's common and long-standing perception of physicians as a well-respected occupational group that experiences a high level of professional satisfaction in jobs generally seen as intrinsically interesting, intellectually challenging, and socially useful. The public, as well as people entering the field of medicine, had generally perceived that physicians had virtually unlimited autonomy in clinical decision making, had the freedom to select their clientele, held the power to determine their working conditions, and enjoyed considerable financial rewards.

"There were various reasons for the newfound dissatisfaction, including the profession's increased fragmentation, the emergence of managed care, the dilution of physician decision-making authority, and society's increased skepticism toward the competencies and motivations of all professionals. When combined, those factors were making medicine less satisfying as a profession than it once had been, and in turn this became a matter of concern for many in the health policy arena. It was especially important with respect to generalist physicians who were experiencing the most direct impact of the decline in quality of work life.

Here is a more recent study from 2004, but only at the State level (PA) where malpractice issues are particularly bad among certain specialists (at least at the time of the study):

" Overall satisfaction levels. Nearly 40 percent of the Pennsylvania specialists
we surveyed in 2003 were dissatisfied with the practice of medicine (Exhibit 1). {High malpractice risk specialties}
OB/GYNswere most likely to report dissatisfaction, and emergency medicine physicians
and radiologists the least likely. Solo practitioners were significantly more
likely than specialists practicing in other settings to be very dissatisfied (p < .05).
Career satisfaction among Pennsylvania high-risk specialists was much lower
than that among two national samples of specialists surveyed as part of the Community
Tracking Study (CTS)—one group in 1999, prior to the onset of the malpractice crisis, and one in 2001, when the crisis was beginning to affect some
states.17 The rate of dissatisfaction among the Pennsylvania specialists (39 percent)
was twice as high as the rates in the 1999 and 2001 benchmark samples (19
percent and 1 percent, respectively; p < .01 for both comparisons). The disparity
was also present in subgroup analyses of surgical specialists and OB/GYNs (p < .01
for all analyses).

 

[Eric Lindros]

I hate to sound like a broken record, but I just wanted to point something out from one of the links that OncoCap posted above:



This supports what I was saying in my earlier post. One almost inescapable fact about engineering is that it is a young persons' field. Even if you love the job, you face a very real possibility of being replaced as you get older. Very cynical people might say that you are at a high risk of having your job outsourced to India/China/etc, but more commonly, you are simply replaced by N new college grads (N = floor(your salary/typical starting salary)). Most engineers don't stick around to see this happen and they do one of 4 things:

1. Become Managers
2. Start their own company (very difficult in my field -- you need lots of capital to start a semiconductor company, but obviously still a formal possibility)
3. Change Careers
4. Make enough money through investing/stock options that you can retire early.

Like I said, with stock option grants becoming more anemic (or non-existant from some companies -- Microsoft is one that comes to mind) option 4 becoming less and less likely, leaving 1-3 as the only viable options.

Yep, agree with this. Most engineers only do actual engineering work (design, protocol drafting, testing) for 5-10 years. If by that time you aren't at least managing a project, something is wrong.

 

[sirus_virus]

Hmmm. Here is what I get when I rank them by % dissatisfied, from lowest dissatisfaction to highest. FP (near middle) & GP (near bottom) are nowhere near the best. Now peds is pretty high on the list (as is Geriatric).

NOTE: DATA from the late 1990s. If you have more recent / better data (free), by all means provide it. A lot has changed since then (things have gotten worse overall, from what I'm told).

Rank, Specialty, % dissatisfied:
1 ID 6.3
2 Nephro 9
3 Endocrino 10.2
4 Geriatric 10.7 (Elderly appreciate physicians = happy doctors?)
5 Derm 10.8
6 Med Onc 11.3
7 Ped 12.6 (Kids make physicians happy?)
8 PMnR 12.9
9 Neonatal 13
10 EM 13.3
11 Uro 13.8
12 Occu 15.2
13 NeuroS 15.2
14 Neuro 16.2
15 Cardio 16.5
16 FP 16.9 (maybe more kiddos = happiness?)
17 CT 17.8
18 Pulmo 17.9
19 Rheu 18
20 Ortho 19.3
21 Gastro 19.5
22 Ped Psych 19.8 (Psych kiddos = no fun?)
23 IM 20.3
24 GS 20.4
25 Optho 21
26 Psych 22
27 Plastic 23.1
28 OB/GYN 24.2
29 GP 25 (no kiddos = more complaints = less joy?)
30 Gyn 25
31 ENT 25.2

Here is one hypothesis for the GP/FP difference: What I was told is that people who deal with the elderly and kids tend to be happy because they don't really complain much. Adults can be complainers and you might get a lot of people with self-inflicted issues. (Don't beat me up for this ... that's simply one physician's interpretation ... feel free to provide your own hypothesis).

Here is more analysis of what seems to be the same survey:

http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/162/14/1577

As always, these surveys represent averages and very few people are exactly average. Job satisfaction seems to vary a lot with specialty for both engineers and physicians. However, typically (percentage-wise), there are fewer dissatisfied engineers compared to physicians. (~2X to 3X difference). Your mileage may vary.

http://www.rwjf.org/reports/grr/027069.htm
"THE PROBLEM

In the health care reform environment of the 1990s, career satisfaction became a serious issue among physicians, as documented by a number of studies conducted in the late 1980s and early 1990s. For example, in a survey of young physicians, 40 percent said they would not go to medical school if they had the choice to make over again. This was in contrast to the public's common and long-standing perception of physicians as a well-respected occupational group that experiences a high level of professional satisfaction in jobs generally seen as intrinsically interesting, intellectually challenging, and socially useful. The public, as well as people entering the field of medicine, had generally perceived that physicians had virtually unlimited autonomy in clinical decision making, had the freedom to select their clientele, held the power to determine their working conditions, and enjoyed considerable financial rewards.

"There were various reasons for the newfound dissatisfaction, including the profession's increased fragmentation, the emergence of managed care, the dilution of physician decision-making authority, and society's increased skepticism toward the competencies and motivations of all professionals. When combined, those factors were making medicine less satisfying as a profession than it once had been, and in turn this became a matter of concern for many in the health policy arena. It was especially important with respect to generalist physicians who were experiencing the most direct impact of the decline in quality of work life.

Here is a more recent study from 2004, but only at the State level (PA) where malpractice issues are particularly bad among certain specialists (at least at the time of the study):

" Overall satisfaction levels. Nearly 40 percent of the Pennsylvania specialists
we surveyed in 2003 were dissatisfied with the practice of medicine (Exhibit 1). {High malpractice risk specialties}
OB/GYNswere most likely to report dissatisfaction, and emergency medicine physicians
and radiologists the least likely. Solo practitioners were significantly more
likely than specialists practicing in other settings to be very dissatisfied (p < .05).
Career satisfaction among Pennsylvania high-risk specialists was much lower
than that among two national samples of specialists surveyed as part of the Community
Tracking Study (CTS)—one group in 1999, prior to the onset of the malpractice crisis, and one in 2001, when the crisis was beginning to affect some
states.17 The rate of dissatisfaction among the Pennsylvania specialists (39 percent)
was twice as high as the rates in the 1999 and 2001 benchmark samples (19
percent and 1 percent, respectively; p < .01 for both comparisons). The disparity
was also present in subgroup analyses of surgical specialists and OB/GYNs (p < .01
for all analyses).

Dude where do you come up with all this stuff. I consider myself fairly decent with internet research, but you have taken it to another level.👍

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

Jota: Isn't that because most of the young engineers go into management? I know most of my buddies are either in management, sales, own their own company, or getting an MBA so that they can get into management (whether project management or middle-management). If you haven't made it into management (even on a part-time basis) by the time you are 40, then you probably lack people skills, which seriously limits your career potential unless you are just so good that people will pay you a ridiculous amount of money for just your technical aptitude (these people can be hard to manage).

But we are talking engineering here, not management.

I simply don't want to manage, because I enjoy solving problems and actually doing work. I was a manager for a few months, but didn't like it probably because 1 month after I was promoted, I had to lay off half of my team (...and I didn't make the decision to lay them off.) I don't think that this is ethical and I'd rather at least make an attempt to live my life according to some form of ethics. Management sucks, IMHO. I did a double-stick-em-up (stuck up my current company, got the retention package in writing, and then got another company to beat it) and quit to become a "lowly" engineer again. (Note that the irony that many would regard playing "stick-up" as unethical is not lost on me.) Perhaps I am more like one of those latter types of people of which you speak.

I still maintain that for people who actually like doing work that applies science yet, at the same time, involves dealing with people, it's hard to beat the job of a doctor, but I suppose that I am currently heavily biased.

Also, when I say management, I am mostly talking about managerial positions where no technical work is done. To Eric Lindros's point about project management, I say that in my field, project managers are usually just experienced engineers (I'm currently a project manager,) perhaps less likely to be ****-canned, but still in danger as they get older. Again, I'm sure that this is heavily dependent upon what field of engineering one works in -- maybe I just chose the wrong type of engineering.

Also, since there is typically 1 manager for 5 or more engineers (again, in my experience) every engineer can't just simply become a manager -- the math doesn't work.

 

[OncoCaP]

Dude where do you come up with all this stuff. I consider myself fairly decent with internet research, but you have taken it to another level.👍

Glad to help out.🙂 Being an engineer and researcher gives me a lot of practice digging up information and skimming through tons of sources. It probably goes back to my days in cross-examination debate in high school where being able to dig up a volume of good information was important.

As far as this specific information is concerned, let's just say I kicked the wheels of the old medicine wagon before I put my money down. Because so many physicians (including very successful ones) were telling me "don't do it, man" "I could never do what you are doing (going back with a family)" "I'm looking for a way to get out" "Seems like a step down: business --> medicine" I thought I better check satisfaction surveys. I found out that medicine has lots of issues, but it's a good fit for me because I have a high tolerance for abuse, need little sleep, etc. I've often been one of those people who, when everyone around me is angry and cursing because of a disaster, I'm looking for a way to move forward and thinking of a joke to change the mood. If I seriously misjudged medicine and it is not a fit for me, I can just go into medical or other research (I hope this won't be the case).

 

[OncoCaP]

But we are talking engineering here, not management.

I simply don't want to manage, because I enjoy solving problems and actually doing work. I was a manager for a few months, but didn't like it probably because 1 month after I was promoted, I had to lay off half of my team (...and I didn't make the decision to lay them off.) I don't think that this is ethical and I'd rather at least make an attempt to live my life according to some form of ethics. Management sucks, IMHO. I did a double-stick-em-up (stuck up my current company, got the retention package in writing, and then got another company to beat it) and quit to become a "lowly" engineer again. Perhaps I am more like one of those latter types of people of which you speak.

I still maintain that for people who actually like doing work that applies science yet, at the same time, involves dealing with people, it's hard to beat the job of a doctor, but I suppose that I am currently heavily biased.

I'm pretty sure you will do well in medicine and contribute a lot. It just seems like you need to be prepared to be "in the snowball" frequently as opposed to as the project proceeds (time pressure, facing a crush of patients and feeling like you can't serve them well, on call Christmas day, etc.). Some of the egos and attitudes I have encountered in medicine also could get on anyone's nerves. Some of the things in management that you hate could come back when you are in a group practice and you get the feeling that some of your partners are messing with you just because they need you to stroke their ego (even if it harms the business). Ethically, you can only do so much and physicians who try to save the world burn out. Working with the public is a rude awakening for many people. There are some real joy-suckers out there in this world, and they go to the doctor (and some go often). Not every patient is looking at their physician as a potentially malpractice lottery jackpot, but it just takes a few here and there to ruin your whole day. I do agree with you that in medicine there is at least some semblance of caring about people (the patients anyway) whereas in engineering it can get very cut-throat and bottom-line oriented.

Engineers are familiar with hard work, but the hours of medicine and inability to leave and time away from the family could be a little hard to get used to. One physician described his internship as "like being in prison -- you can't leave." Maybe you'll match into Rad and you can work evenings from home, but those spots are very competitive. I'm personally preparing myself for a long hard road doing something that I love. Sometimes too much of a good thing can get to you, and anyone going into this field needs to have some good stress coping mechanisms. I'm going to focus on that one person that I was able to help as opposed to the 10 that hate me because I didn't approve their disability so they can collect more money or the other 10 who either can't get the treatment they need for lack of insurance, complications, or basic ability to follow instructions. Medicine can be a good job, but there are many pitfalls as well. If I was just interested in doing science, I might look at medical research as well as clinical medical work. Notice that the job of "Medical Scientist/Researcher" has a higher rating than physician in some job surveys because it avoids some of the rough edges of medicine. Medical research also has long hours doesn't pay as well and can be boring, but at least you aren't staring down 20-30 patients at the beginning of your workday and can't leave even if your family is having a mini-crisis.

My main point: Don't jump from the frying pan into the fire. Make very sure medicine is actually better than several other options before investing $80K+ and 7 years of your life. Just because your job is boring, doesn't pay well, and seems insecure doesn't mean that you'll like medicine one bit better. You might be better off with a simple job change or getting training in a different area, moving into a different part of the country, etc. Sometimes in engineering the biggest stress can be to fight boredom or frustration with lack of advancement opportunities. Dealing with the public (some members of which are jerks and totally proud of it), real legal liability (just because you did everything right doesn't mean you won't get sued and lose big time), a poor work schedule, and pressure to produce more for less pay are realities most physicians deal with. As long as you are going into the field for the "right reasons," it can be a good thing overall. Despite the rough edges, we need excellent physicians and more of them.

 

[Eric Lindros]

But we are talking engineering here, not management.

I simply don't want to manage, because I enjoy solving problems and actually doing work. I was a manager for a few months, but didn't like it probably because 1 month after I was promoted, I had to lay off half of my team (...and I didn't make the decision to lay them off.) I don't think that this is ethical and I'd rather at least make an attempt to live my life according to some form of ethics. Management sucks, IMHO. I did a double-stick-em-up (stuck up my current company, got the retention package in writing, and then got another company to beat it) and quit to become a "lowly" engineer again. (Note that the irony that many would regard playing "stick-up" as unethical is not lost on me.) Perhaps I am more like one of those latter types of people of which you speak.

I still maintain that for people who actually like doing work that applies science yet, at the same time, involves dealing with people, it's hard to beat the job of a doctor, but I suppose that I am currently heavily biased.

Also, when I say management, I am mostly talking about managerial positions where no technical work is done. To Eric Lindros's point about project management, I say that in my field, project managers are usually just experienced engineers (I'm currently a project manager,) perhaps less likely to be ****-canned, but still in danger as they get older. Again, I'm sure that this is heavily dependent upon what field of engineering one works in -- maybe I just chose the wrong type of engineering.

Also, since there is typically 1 manager for 5 or more engineers (again, in my experience) every engineer can't just simply become a manager -- the math doesn't work.

Right, project managment is definitely still technical work at most companies, but it's without a doubt the major stepping stone you need in order to get into higher managment positions like, say, a VP position (which is much more removed from technical work and more business)

Where I work, the hiearchy is typically:

Project Engineers -> Project Manager -> Regulatory Manager, Quality Manager (all engineers), etc -> Head Manager (VP position) -> President and Board of Directors

 

[SunshineNYC]

Ok. I am an Engineering female at a large engineering company. (technical females are a great asset to the company). I have been out of school almost two years (two years in May) and have been working for this great engineering company since. Recently, I've decided to switch and go the doctor route after my father had a heart condition and needed surgery. My family and boyfriend (soon to be fiance), has been very supportive of my decision in changing career tracks. The only person that has doubts, are myself. Am I doing the right thing? Is it worth it, all that time and money? Here are some reasons, pros and cons:

Pros of staying in engineering:
1). I'm working at a pretty good company with flexiblity and great benefits. I am a technical female, and so, the chances of layoffs are much lowere than my male counterparts.
2). I have completed my degree, have started working and now am getting paid.
3). I would probably being making a great chunk of money in about ten years. And am still making money now, as oopsed to no money and taking out loans if going to med school).

Cons of engineering:
1). I look around at my coworkers, and during certain times of the year, they work crazy hours (including evening and weekends). You could easily do 50-60 hrs in a week. (and other parts of the year, it's more laid back at 40-ish hours a week).
2). Right now, since I am new and at the bottom of the totem pole at work, my pay isn't so enticing.
3). This job would only be a job, nothing truly fulfilling about it. I wouldn't love what I do. (but of course, can always make the best of everything you have).
4). I am outgoing, sociable and love interacting with people (which engineering doesn't provide as much.)
5). Areas to find jobs are more limited. I'll need to follow where my job goes or only find places/locations that will use my skill.


Pros of Med school/ becoming a doctor:
1). Patient/people interactio.
2). Being able to diagnose someone and find a way to treat/ cure them to make their condition improved. Being able to clearly see the difference I made.
3). Financial security
4) Job security and being able to find a job in any region of the country (at least this used to be, not sure how itis now.)

Cons of Med school/becoming a doctor:
1) I'll be 34-35 when I completely finish Med scholl and 3/4 yrs of residency
2) I'll make no money in the next ten years (so I can't help out my fiance and family financailly- even though i'm sure they'll be ok.)
3) Lots of work



My engineering undergrad overall gpa is great - 3.53-ish, but the med prereqs (used for BCPM gpa) I took in undergrad are not that great 3.19-ish.
I have already started a post-bacc program at a local university two months ago and am doing great in the class (Chem 2). And this is after taking Chem 1 about 6 years ago. If I take all the prereqs and apply for Med school next year, my BPCPM will be around 3.52-ish and overall GPA at 3.6.

My job now is just ok, but not everyone loves their job 100%. Only thing is, I don't know if becoming a doctor will make me happy. I only hope/think it will now, but what if after years of stress, it's not all that cracked up to be. But I figure, every job will have it's stress, it's if you enjoy the job enough to take it. I'm also continuosly learning on the job in my engineering company. Even though the rate and level won't be as high as medical school, I figure, if I am gonna need to study and learn, might as well do it to come out and do something meaningful in the end... right?

What do you guys think? Can I make it into Med school with those grades? Am I wasting my time? Is it worth it at my age? (I'm 24 now) Is it worth it to give up a good career like engineering? Help!

First of all, it is NEVER too late. Make sure you consider osteopathic medical schools as well since they tend to take more older, non-traditional students like yourself (I am your age, so I don't mean that we're old, but we are older than the typical med student applicant). I used my father as my inspiration who switched out of dentistry to go into computers in his late 30s. There are other people in my life who have switched careers and it hasn't always worked out financially or whatever, but it was always the right thing for them to do otherwise they would have suffered a life of regret. It is always important to follow your heart. If you find that your heart is in medicine then follow it.

I think the number one reason you should pursue this is because you've already decided to, but the logic in your head is holing you back. This should be your number 1 reason to quit engineering:
" 3). This job would only be a job, nothing truly fulfilling about it. I wouldn't love what I do. (but of course, can always make the best of everything you have)."

I read this in a book and it makes me think differently about work:

And what is it to work with love? It is to weave the cloth with threads drawn from your heart, even as if your beloved were to wear that cloth. It is to build a house with affection, even as if your beloved were to dwell in that house. It is to sow seeds with tenderness and reap the harvest with joy, even as if your beloved were to eat the fruit. It is to charge all things you fashion with a breath of your own spirit, and to know that all the blessed dead are standing about you watching.....

Work is love made visible. And if you cannot work with love but only with distaste, it is better that you should leave your work and sit at the gate of the temple and take alms of those who work with joy. For if you bake bread with indifference, you bake a bitter bread that feeds but half man's hunger. And if you grudge the crushing of the grapes, your grudge distills a poison in the wine. And if you sing though as angels, and love not the singing, you muffle man's ears to the voices of the day and the voices of the night". ​

We no longer are raised to believe that pride in your work is important. Work at something that means something to you and it will enhance your life and everyone you touch through your work because your heart will be in it. That is the ONLY reason to do this. Forget about the logic, the money, the job security, yes those things matter, but not as much as your happiness, because if you are not happy then nothing will matter to you, even your salary. Good luck.

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

I'm pretty sure you will do well in medicine and contribute a lot. It just seems like you need to be prepared to be "in the snowball" frequently as opposed to as the project proceeds (time pressure, facing a crush of patients and feeling like you can't serve them well, on call Christmas day, etc.). Some of the egos and attitudes I have encountered in medicine also could get on anyone's nerves. Some of the things in management that you hate could come back when you are in a group practice and you get the feeling that some of your partners are messing with you just because they need you to stroke their ego (even if it harms the business). Ethically, you can only do so much and physicians who try to save the world burn out. Working with the public is a rude awakening for many people. There are some real joy-suckers out there in this world, and they go to the doctor (and some go often). Not every patient is looking at their physician as a potentially malpractice lottery jackpot, but it just takes a few here and there to ruin your whole day. I do agree with you that in medicine there is at least some semblance of caring about people (the patients anyway) whereas in engineering it can get very cut-throat and bottom-line oriented.

Dude, you are sounding very, very (one more for good measure,) very negative about your future profession, and you haven't even started medical school yet. Maybe you should take some of your own advice and look into alternative careers.

Put another way: If you're not going into it with a positive attitude, you're unlikely to "come out of it" with a positive attitude.

 

[OncoCaP]

Dude, you are sounding very, very (one more for good measure,) very negative about your future profession, and you haven't even started medical school yet. Maybe you should take some of your own advice and look into alternative careers.

Put another way: If you're not going into it with a positive attitude, you're unlikely to "come out of it" with a positive attitude.

Yeah, you have a point.👍 Let me balance it out a bit. I should point out the many reasons why I do like it, just to be fair. Here are a few.

I love the responsibility of medicine ... that if I do something right, it directly affects a patient in a positive way. When you get it right, you can make a clear and visible difference in someone's life -- a true privilege. I'm a big boy; if something goes wrong, I'll do what I can to correct it and move on. I like being around people who are very capable, even if they can be arrogant sometimes. Some of the physicians I have worked with are just plain awesome. I've worked around great engineers and managers as well, but it seems like in medicine there are more opportunities for those who want to help others as opposed to just getting rich. I learn from them and admire them to a certain extent ... like a work of art I suppose.

I love the fact that technology is becoming more important and I'll be able to perhaps make some innovations in using my background in providing better care and perhaps making care less expensive. I'm someone who has liked pretty much every job I have ever done. I don't expect medicine to be any different in this respect. I expect my management background to come in handy when making sure that I establish good relationships with others around me and influencing positive changes. My financial background will help me monitor that side of medicine to make sure that I'm not spending more than we are able to. It is possible to financially responsible and generous at the same time.

Medicine is very challenging, and I love challenges. No matter how much you learn, the human body has more secrets and ways that it will surprise you. It's a universe that just plain fascinates me. Combine this with the fact that we will need many physicians to help our parent's / grandparent's generation and you have a fascinating job that is in big demand. Engineering has plenty of great people in it. Medicine has a growing workload and needs more, so it's a great place to serve. Combine that with fascinating people who occupy those bodies and I can do this for hours and want to come back for more. Every time I volunteer at a hospice and sit with a patient for an hour, I have a good feeling about it. I want to be around people .. the general public. I'm not happy being locked up in any ivory tower. I seek to be where the tire meets the road. I find people to be interesting, and the more people I meet, it seems the happier I am. If I can actually help many of these people, that is really an honor. Sitting in a cath lab and seeing the amazing stuff they do makes me wish I could do this for a living as well. Yes, there are many things I like about medicine. Part of my strategy is to be aware of the rough edges so I don't get blindsided. I don't mean to discourage those who have carefully considered the pros and cons. 🙂

 

[8744]

Yep, agree with this. Most engineers only do actual engineering work (design, protocol drafting, testing) for 5-10 years. If by that time you aren't at least managing a project, something is wrong.

The money is in consulting. Engineering firms don't want to have a lot of expensive senior engineers so they naturally prefer recent graduates. But if business is good, you can make a lot more as a consultant than you can as an employee. I was billing 60 to 80 bucks an hour for the same work I did for my employers for 25 bucks an hour. And I could bring my dogs to the office and engage in other tomfoolery which you cannot do as an employee but you can do if you're the boss.

I also easily resisted the temptation to hire employees preferring to sub-contract work I couldn't or didn't want to do. I had an HVAC guy designing for me, for example, and I just bid his time as mine, paid him what he wanted, and everybody was happy. Same with steel detailing and the like.

You can make money in engineering. In fact, if you devote as much time and dedication (some might say obsession) to engineering as you will do towards applying to and matriculating into medical school you will do very well.

I don't know how it works for the "soft" engineering disciplines like Computer Engineering but this is how it works in Civil/Structural. (Another difference is that you need your PE license as a Civil to work for yourself.)

 

[atomi]

No.

What's the right answer then? You say no to engineering and medicine. Make up your mind.

 

[NickRiviera]

I don't know how it works for the "soft" engineering disciplines like Computer Engineering but this is how it works in Civil/Structural. (Another difference is that you need your PE license as a Civil to work for yourself.)

Same deal in those disciplines. If you have the skill set and can program a device, develop a microprocessor, whatever, then consulting gives the same benefits. If you don't know a certain processor, programming language, whatever, you can do the same thing you did and hire out someone who does via sub-contracting. You don't need your PE though or really any other license; that's mostly specific to Civil or anything with building design. I don't think I've ever met anyone who had a PE in EE or CompE or CS who ever used it for work.

 

[pyrois]

The fact that you are contemplating means it is probably not worth it

I think the people who sit down and contemplate their life-changing decisions before actually making them have a better chance than the people who just jump out of bed one morning and go "gung-ho" on medicine.

Passion is not always blind.

 

[pyrois]

What's the right answer then? You say no to engineering and medicine. Make up your mind.

The correct answer is:

High School Teacher.

You get summers off and don't have to deal with elementary school arts and crafts projects😛

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

You can make money in engineering. In fact, if you devote as much time and dedication (some might say obsession) to engineering as you will do towards applying to and matriculating into medical school you will do very well.

Agree with this 100%. Note: I have never complained about the money, per se. IMHO, one of the best reasons to do engineering is for the money. (Though, like I have said before, these prospects are drying up, because the real money, IMHO, in engineering is/was in stock options.)

I don't know how it works for the "soft" engineering disciplines like Computer Engineering but this is how it works in Civil/Structural. (Another difference is that you need your PE license as a Civil to work for yourself.)

Same deal in those disciplines. If you have the skill set and can program a device, develop a microprocessor, whatever, then consulting gives the same benefits. If you don't know a certain processor, programming language, whatever, you can do the same thing you did and hire out someone who does via sub-contracting. You don't need your PE though or really any other license; that's mostly specific to Civil or anything with building design. I don't think I've ever met anyone who had a PE in EE or CompE or CS who ever used it for work.

No way (at least not universally.) Contract Design in the Semiconductor Industry (Which is often considered Computer Engineering, though Computer Engineering is somewhat of a nebulous term) is nearly unheard of. This is mostly related to IP issues. Sure your contractor signs an NDA, but he/she has the potential to see some of the company's deepest trade secrets. Then, a week after his/her contract is up may go to work as a contractor for your biggest competitor. Oops. This is a situation that most companies (in my experience) avoid like the plague (though some former employees are sometimes hired back on a contract basis to help clean up messes like doing a rev of a project where no one who originally worked on that project works for the company anymore. Note that most employment "agreements" forbid this sort of thing (because of IP issues, once again) but it still happens.)

Also, I just want to make one general statement. Although I often talk in absolutes, I completely realize that this stuff varies from job to job and engineering field/discipline to engineering field/discipline. I'm just posting my experiences (which may have been much worse than average) and not trying to invalidate anyone else's (though it might come across that way -- which isn't really my intention.)

This is also undoubtedly true of medicine. Circumstances will vary a lot, and people here seem to be focusing on the worst that can happen. The reality is that there are a broad spectrum of specialties/jobs/people that physicians encounter, so no one can really know what their future career will truly be like. While "plan for the worst, but hope for the best" is often a good engineering strategy, I find it a bit depressing when I apply it to my own life, so I tend to follow a more optimistic strategy -- something like "plan for the typical case, hope for the best, but be aware of the worst that can happen."

EDIT: Completely agree WRT a PE, though. In CE, I don't know of any benefit of a PE. The same goes, to a large extent, for a PhD (assuming you don't want to go from industry to academia as your career change somewhere along the line.)

 

[NickRiviera]

No way (at least not universally.)

Eh, our experiences differ. I've seen a great deal of contracting at smaller medical device companies who need to get products from idea to market in under a year.

 

[NickRiviera]

For the OP, getting your MD/DO will open many door for you in industry as well. If you end up hating clinical work and even research, you can bail and come back to industry. Some companies will even make your loan payments. Although you won't get paid as much, you are still a doctor and get to surf the internet half the day. Management at a biotech company is also an option.

 

[8744]

What's the right answer then? You say no to engineering and medicine. Make up your mind.

If you're an engineer with good prospects (like your job, lucrative field, good market) then stay an engineer. If you expend the same effort you will for medical training over eight years with little or no pay at engineering you will do very well and arrive, ten years from now, in much better shape financially and perhaps professionally than you would just finishing residency, especially if you end up in a low-paying primary care job.

I wouldn't give this advice to somebody with a degree in one of the typical pre-med things because they pretty much have to go to medical school or starve. You're engineers, fer' crying out loud.

 

[8744]

....Completely agree WRT a PE, though. In CE, I don't know of any benefit of a PE. The same goes, to a large extent, for a PhD (assuming you don't want to go from industry to academia as your career change somewhere along the line....

Having a PE license was good for about a 20 percent increase in salary at most of the engineering firms where I worked or who offered me jobs.

You cannot, by the way, work as a self-employed civil engineer or bill yourself as one unless you have PE license. This is by state law in most if not all states. Additionally, all plans for structures which might constitute a risk to the public have to be prepared either by or under the supervision of a Licensed Professional Engineer and "sealed" accordingly.

A PE license is a pretty big deal in the Civil Engineering world. The test is pretty hard, too. Much harder thant the MCAT or the Step tests. Our state only has something like a 20 percent first time pass rate.

 

[8744]

....in jobs generally seen as intrinsically interesting, intellectually challenging, and socially useful....

Well, however hard residency blows this is true about medicine. I don't think anybody is denying this.

 

[MonkeyNuts!]

For the last several days I have been in the grip of a wierd gastrointestinal bug. I can go about an hour or two between bouts. I am thinking of asking for an IV and a liter of fluid. Going home is out of the question. I can't just say, "Hey, I'm not feeling well, I'm taking the rest of the day (er, night) off."

I just had viral gastroenteritis over the weekend. Fever, nonstop liquid diarrhea. Couldn't keep fluids in for more than 10 minutes, so they hooked an IV up to me at this primary care center I went to.

Are you telling me that if this happens during residency, they won't let me go home and get better? I swear if that's the case, I'm going to walk around with no pants and just piss **** out my ass whereever I go.

 

[sirus_virus]

If you're an engineer with good prospects (like your job, lucrative field, good market) then stay an engineer. If you expend the same effort you will for medical training over eight years with little or no pay at engineering you will do very well and arrive, ten years from now, in much better shape financially and perhaps professionally than you would just finishing residency, especially if you end up in a low-paying primary care job.

I wouldn't give this advice to somebody with a degree in one of the typical pre-med things because they pretty much have to go to medical school or starve. You're engineers, fer' crying out loud.

Why are you masking the name of the major? We all know you are talking about BIOLOGY(and it's worthless cousins--biochem, sociology etc). Biology as a major is responsible for the endless supply of desperate premeds willing to ***** themselves out to an abusive profession regardless of work conditions. If all premeds were like OP with real options and a potential to give medicine the finger and walk out, maybe the healthcare sytem will do more to make physician work conditions more attractive, but where else is a biology major going to go if they leave medicine?

 

[8744]

I just had viral gastroenteritis over the weekend. Fever, nonstop liquid diarrhea. Couldn't keep fluids in for more than 10 minutes, so they hooked an IV up to me at this primary care center I went to.

Are you telling me that if this happens during residency, they won't let me go home and get better? I swear if that's the case, I'm going to walk around with no pants and just piss **** out my ass whereever I go.

It's not that you can't go home (although you can't until you can get someone to cover for you), it's just that you will be screwing over somebody who is on "backup call," perhaps their only day off in three weeks, to cover for you.

When I worked as an engineer and got the flu, I just called in and said, "Hey, I feel like crap. I'm staying home today" and it was fine unless there was something that absoutely had to be done that day. In a hospital, everything is an emergency. The Emergency Department is always full of patients waiting to be admitted, for example, and even if there are no beds there is intense pressure to get them admitted and out of the ED's hair. The nurses will always page you for even the most trivial thing which could probably wait 'till morning and if you don't answer the page they'll keep paging until you do.

Apparently, the whole shakey edifice of academic medicine will collapse like the The Dark Tower at the end of Lord of the Rings if the residents get a few hours of sleep at night.

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

Why are you masking the name of the major? We all know you are talking about BIOLOGY(and it's worthless cousins--biochem, sociology etc). Biology as a major is responsible for the endless supply of desperate premeds willing to ***** themselves out to an abusive profession regardless of work conditions. If all premeds were like OP with real options and a potential to give medicine the finger and walk out, maybe the healthcare sytem will do more to make physician work conditions more attractive, but where else is a biology major going to go if they leave medicine?

A friend of mine was a Bio. major and tested cheese for some state agency. They could do that.

(Sorry, I couldn't even type that with a straight face.)

 

[atomi]

If you're an engineer with good prospects (like your job, lucrative field, good market) then stay an engineer. If you expend the same effort you will for medical training over eight years with little or no pay at engineering you will do very well and arrive, ten years from now, in much better shape financially and perhaps professionally than you would just finishing residency, especially if you end up in a low-paying primary care job.

I wouldn't give this advice to somebody with a degree in one of the typical pre-med things because they pretty much have to go to medical school or starve. You're engineers, fer' crying out loud.

Well, should I get a master's degree or PhD (I've been accepted to both because i essentially applied to everything since I had no idea)? I guess my 4.0 in EE was kind of a curse because now I feel like I have to do some sort of grad work otherwise I wasted all my time as an undergrad getthing that 4.0. I could have partied all the time, gotten a 3.0 and still have gotten a job. I have savings now from my past year of working that, put away now and never touched, should pretty much cover a traditional retirement in 45 years. It is such a shame that the state of medicine now has made it so painful for people who could be otherwise sucessful to do it. I feel like my talents would be better served as a doctor rather than designing weapons.

 

[NickRiviera]

I feel like my talents would be better served as a doctor rather than designing weapons.

Go design medical devices.

 

[OncoCaP]

Well, should I get a master's degree or PhD (I've been accepted to both because i essentially applied to everything since I had no idea)? I guess my 4.0 in EE was kind of a curse because now I feel like I have to do some sort of grad work otherwise I wasted all my time as an undergrad getthing that 4.0. I could have partied all the time, gotten a 3.0 and still have gotten a job. I have savings now from my past year of working that, put away now and never touched, should pretty much cover a traditional retirement in 45 years. It is such a shame that the state of medicine now has made it so painful for people who could be otherwise sucessful to do it. I feel like my talents would be better served as a doctor rather than designing weapons.

I know engineers with 4.0s who went into engineering jobs with a B.S. and just rocked their world. They were good at what they did and their work product proved it. Within a couple of years they were in supervisory roles and before they knew it, they were hanging with the upper mgmt guys building the relationships that will lead to the most lucrative positions (about 10 years). As with anything, who you choose to work for (whether in industry or academia) and whether you pick a "specialty" that is going to be in demand can make a big difference in terms of opportunities. You don't need a graduate degree to be successful in industry, and some people in industry admire people with good grades (you just need to make sure you prove you're not limited to being book-smart).

If you go the graduate school route, it is more important that you pick a research project that is going to move you toward your goal (academia or industry, medical devices vs circuits, etc.) rather than worrying about Ph.D. vs M.S. If you can spare a couple more years, I would just get the Ph.D., and you can always stop at an MS if the right opportunity comes along (look around as you are going through your education).

As far as the "state of medicine," I like the analogy of climbing a mountain. If it's going to be a difficult climb that will take some time, I would like to know about potential issues (avalances, cold weather, certain routes to avoid, etc.) so that I can prepare myself and plan appropriately. Also, I would rather know the positive and minuses so that I can determine whether this is the right mountain for me to make sure I'm even headed in the right direction to begin with. It's not the unexpected joys that need to be prepared for; it's the unexpected problems. Some of the most rewarding experiences in life come with extreme effort and to some extent they involve risk. I'm not suggesting that people hunker down and avoid medicine at all cost. There are many rewards to a career in medicine. I would just suggest making really sure that it is what you want to do, that you are prepared for the challenges that others before you have faced, and have considered alternatives that may be a more direct route to your dream job.

What I have run across is that people who really enjoy their work usually have a passion that comes from the inside; it is part of who they are. It is in their approach to their work and related to their values. Sometimes it doesn't seem to matter what they are doing because they will find a way to enjoy it. Likewise, people who are unhappy can drag that carcass of their misery with them from job to job or career to career. I'm a little suspicious of people who are running away from something that they don't like because the grass will always look a little greener on the other side. Often it's easier to see the good things about a new job than the bad things (especially if people don't talk about the problems very much). In any case, I'm not sure that it is a job that makes you feel fulfilled. Yes, a job can help or hurt your attitude and mood, but there are going to be rough edges to any job, including the job of physician. I'm of the opinion that joy is something you bring to your job. People who depend on their job to make them happy make themselves vulnerable, in my opinion.

Finally, with respect to Bio majors, there are more opportunities for them all the time. Whereas in the past teaching high school seemed like the logical next step besides medicine, I see more and more of them going to graduate school. I spoke with several Bio majors who hate medicine and have no interest in it, not only because they don't care about helping people but because they thought bioinformatics or another area was much more interesting than medicine. Many pharma, biotech, and biomed companies are looking for excellent scientists, and, although it can be competitive to land the really nice jobs, there are an increasing number of opportunities. I'm glad they have more options and that most of the ones I spoke with don't feel obligated to go into medicine (I found bio pre-meds to be the exception in some of my UG classes).

 

[8744]

Well, should I get a master's degree or PhD (I've been accepted to both because i essentially applied to everything since I had no idea)? I guess my 4.0 in EE was kind of a curse because now I feel like I have to do some sort of grad work otherwise I wasted all my time as an undergrad getthing that 4.0. I could have partied all the time, gotten a 3.0 and still have gotten a job. I have savings now from my past year of working that, put away now and never touched, should pretty much cover a traditional retirement in 45 years. It is such a shame that the state of medicine now has made it so painful for people who could be otherwise sucessful to do it. I feel like my talents would be better served as a doctor rather than designing weapons.

A PhD is of no value in Civil Engineering. Your grades don't matter either. I was never asked about my GPA when interviewing for any job. You will start at the same salary whether you eked out a 2.7 or worked hard for 4.0. After your first job they will care even less about your grades if it's possible to care any less than most employers do to begin with.

Coming out of a good engineering program (Georgia Tech, for example) does carry some weight.

Anybody can be a doctor. A good weapon, however is a thing of beauty, and useful to.

 

[8744]

Why are you masking the name of the major? We all know you are talking about BIOLOGY(and it's worthless cousins--biochem, sociology etc). Biology as a major is responsible for the endless supply of desperate premeds willing to ***** themselves out to an abusive profession regardless of work conditions. If all premeds were like OP with real options and a potential to give medicine the finger and walk out, maybe the healthcare sytem will do more to make physician work conditions more attractive, but where else is a biology major going to go if they leave medicine?

Oh man, that nails it exactly. As long as there are hordes of pre-meds willing to "eat poop hotdogs" to get into medical school it's always going to be a seller's market and there will be little incentive to increase residency pay or improve working conditions.

You know what abusive residents fear? Anybody who has had a career before medicine. We see right through their bull****.

 

[dutchman]

Oh man, that nails it exactly. As long as there are hordes of pre-meds willing to "eat poop hotdogs" to get into medical school it's always going to be a seller's market and there will be little incentive to increase residency pay or improve working conditions.

You know what abusive residents fear? Anybody who has had a career before medicine. We see right through their bull****.

 

[dantt]

You know what abusive residents fear? Anybody who has had a career before medicine. We see right through their bull****.

That's interesting. What do they have to be afraid of? They are essentially your boss and have you by the balls for recommendations.

 

[johankriek]

Just an aside.... if you look at statistical snapshot of CEOS which looked at all aspect of CEOs in the s and p 500.. The most frequent degree that all of them possessed was an engineering degree. almost all of them had MBAs as well..

so if i had to do it over again I would have majored in engineering and after graduation at 22 I would have gotten an MBA then started on myway...

 

[8744]

That's interesting. What do they have to be afraid of? They are essentially your boss and have you by the balls for recommendations.

When you match, you only need three or four letters and none of them come from residents. What's more, you'll work with hundreds of residents and attendings in third and fourth year so the grip on your gonads is tenuous at best. What are they going to do? Band together and write anonymous letters to every program where you apply?

The worst they can do is give you a few lukewarm evaluations. Big deal. All you have to do is find a few rotations you like in the specialty you want to pursue and get letters there.

If it damages your class rank a little so be it. You just have to look deep and ask yourself if a tenth of a point on your GPA worth being someone's bitch.

 

[OncoCaP]

That's interesting. What do they have to be afraid of? They are essentially your boss and have you by the balls for recommendations.

(I didn't realize that Panda was still hanging out here 'cause his indicator was off, oh well, here is my reply FWIW🙂 )

I'm a non-trad pre-med; based on previous posts by Panda (and Tired for that matter): You don't need to be a resident's or intern's handmaiden (subservient and submissive). You do your task with professionalism and competence, but if someone asks you to do scut like make photocopies, get them coffee, etc., you can just tell them "No, get your own copies and coffee." Similarly, if someone is being inappropriately abusive toward you, you don't need to sit there and take it. You tell them that something isn't right and, perhaps even walk off like Tired did. You may not honor the clerkship, but you'll pass if you do well on your shelf exams. From reading some of the Clinical rotation threads, you'll occasionally run into issues like this.

My take: as a person with a prior career, someone blowing their top with a temper-tantrum does not come as big surprise or shock. You develop your own way of not being caught off guard and dealing with it. Some people like Panda or Tired might have a quick retort that would probably embarrass the "offender" and make them think twice about doing it again.

I consider myself less confrontational in such situations. I'm usually pretty thick-skinned and don't get into it with the red-faced person. If they were really janking my chain, I might say something like, "I can appreciate your questions. I would be happy to answer them at a later time when you no longer feel the need to be abusive toward a student and are ready to have a professional discussion." Basically who you are has to be consistent with the message or they might lay into you more. From what I can tell you are going to get some unfair evaluations and comments, even if you do everything the "offender" says.

I wouldn't let such behavior intimidate me, but I wouldn't feel the need to say something quick-witted either; that's just not me (more laid-back). In my opinion, a lot has to do with the way you carry yourself, your personality, and what you want to do. I personally like to help out where I can, so I would probably do my share of scut and it wouldn't bother me. As a non-trad, I might be less worried about catering to every abuse just to get a better evaluation. I might focus more on what I think the evalution should be about (learning and demonstrating the new knowledge; conducting oneself like a professional -- a physician -- to the extent that you know how) and have less of a tendency to play mind games. If you have had a previous career, you will probably have had a chance to practice dealing with tense situations.

 

[8744]

(I didn't realize that Panda was still hanging out here 'cause his indicator was off, oh well, here is my reply FWIW🙂 )

I'm a non-trad pre-med; based on previous posts by Panda (and Tired for that matter): You don't need to be a resident's or intern's handmaiden (subservient and submissive). You do your task with professionalism and competence, but if someone asks you to do scut like make photocopies, get them coffee, etc., you can just tell them "No, get your own copies and coffee." Similarly, if someone is being inappropriately abusive toward you, you don't need to sit there and take it. You tell them that something isn't right and, perhaps even walk off like Tired did. You may not honor the clerkship, but you'll pass if you do well on your shelf exams. From reading some of the Clinical rotation threads, you'll occasionally run into issues like this.

My take: as a person with a prior career, someone blowing their top with a temper-tantrum does not come as big surprise or shock. You develop your own way of not being caught off guard and dealing with it. Some people like Panda or Tired might have a quick retort that would probably embarrass the "offender" and make them think twice about doing it again.

I consider myself less confrontational in such situations. I'm usually pretty thick-skinned and don't get into it with the red-faced person. If they were really janking my chain, I might say something like, "I can appreciate your questions. I would be happy to answer them at a later time when you no longer feel the need to be abusive toward a student and are ready to have a professional discussion." Basically who you are has to be consistent with the message or they might lay into you more. From what I can tell you are going to get some unfair evaluations and comments, even if you do everything the "offender" says.

I wouldn't let such behavior intimidate me, but I wouldn't feel the need to say something quick-witted either; that's just not me (more laid-back). In my opinion, a lot has to do with the way you carry yourself, your personality, and what you want to do. I personally like to help out where I can, so I would probably do my share of scut and it wouldn't bother me. As a non-trad, I might be less worried about catering to every abuse just to get a better evaluation. I might focus more on what I think the evalution should be about (learning and demonstrating the new knowledge; conducting oneself like a professional -- a physician -- to the extent that you know how) and have less of a tendency to play mind games. If you have had a previous career, you will probably have had a chance to practice dealing with tense situations.

I want to clarify that I am always pleasant to people, never get angry, and respect authority and the chain of command. And, like I always say, most residents and attendings are good people and you don't need to bristle at the good-natured sarcasm that will eventually come your way. But I know the difference between sarcasm and insults or respect and subservience.

 

[HannahDH]

geez, seems like there are so many unhappy physicians/doctors out there. I'd hate to work with any of you that negative! Luckily my peers are very enthusiastic about what we do day in and day out.

I think there is no right or wrong answers. Some feel if they had to do it all over, they wouldn't, while others like myself have gotten through it and would do it all over again.
I am not always happy, but who is? Being a doctor is part of the job, we chose it and I'm one of those who still love it. There are days where I am extremely exhausted but its part of the job. During residency, especially the first year it was almost a nightmare. But looking back now, it's part of the process and I'm glad I got thrugh it. It showed I toughed it out and now I can get to be a

 

[Robizzle]

You can be my immunologist any day of the week!

 

[sirus_virus]

You can be my immunologist any day of the week!

Stop being a bizzle.

 

[sirus_virus]

geez, seems like there are so many unhappy physicians/doctors out there. I'd hate to work with any of you that negative! Luckily my peers are very enthusiastic about what we do day in and day out.

I think there is no right or wrong answers. Some feel if they had to do it all over, they wouldn't, while others like myself have gotten through it and would do it all over again.
I am not always happy, but who is? Being a doctor is part of the job, we chose it and I'm one of those who still love it. There are days where I am extremely exhausted but its part of the job. During residency, especially the first year it was almost a nightmare. But looking back now, it's part of the process and I'm glad I got thrugh it. It showed I toughed it out and now I can get to be a

I am happy for you. You seem to be one of the 30% satisfied physicians out there. We on the other hand have to worry about falling into the 70% dissatified/confused doctors column.

 

[NickRiviera]

I am happy for you. You seem to be one of the 30% satisfied physicians out there. We on the other hand have to worry about falling into the 70% dissatisfied/confused doctors column.

I agree, and this is the OPs concern. Is giving up a lifestyle of decent financial security, relatively good hours, and some job happiness (engineer) worth it when the return is uncertain. If you go into medicine and dislike it, you are kinda handcuffed financially. On top of that, if you don't like your job you're going to regret bailing on a decent lifestyle every day of your life.
I've met many physicians who told me to stay away from medicine, most didn't have a good reply for what else they would do. Still, I've met very few engineers who said they hate their job.

 

[beetlerum]

I am happy for you. You seem to be one of the 30% satisfied physicians out there. We on the other hand have to worry about falling into the 70% dissatified/confused doctors column.

Evidence that 70% of physicians are dissatisfied/confused? Surveys I've seen show most being happy.

Why again are you going into medicine? Going by that list you posted, there are lots of things you could consider instead. For example, I saw human resources manager was very high on the list. How about that instead?

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

I boil your post down to ... the engineering work is boring, lack of people interaction, and the pay is not that great. You are looking for something more interesting, with better pay, and something that involves working with people.

My thought is that there are many unappealing things about medicine and the pay usually doesn't make up for them. Keep in mind that you could go from being bored to feeling stressed out (not exactly better). Medicine also involves a lot of boring, repetitive paperwork (not getting out of that by making the switch). On top of that, getting paid is sometimes tougher (dealing with insurance companies who try to squeeze you). Responsibility can be greater in that if you make a mistake, you could lose your license and you're back to doing engineering after having spent $120K+ and 7 years of your life ... back to square one. In engineering, more people have a chance to catch your errors and more of the responsibility is on your company (and managers) rather than just you. Also, in terms of raising a family, medicine poses many more challenges than engineering. In your case I would say, no, it doesn't look like medicine would be a good choice at this point in your thinking (I would put the idea on the back burner a little while longer ... take it really slow). Maybe look into getting an MBA or finding a more interesting engineering job would be alternatives to explore.

By the way, I'm a Ph.D. engineer. I had an enjoyable engineering and business career (~15 years). I'm going into medicine now (start this fall). I would not be doing this except for the idea of giving something back to society because it is going to involve some major sacrifices in terms of spending time with my family, for example. Also, I'm one of those people that thrives on brutal challenges & stress (just how I'm wired). I'm going into this to give rather than get. If I could help one patient a month or maybe a year (and the rest totally ignored my direction, were lost causes, etc.), I would still think it was worth it, although I'm looking to help more. I look at medicine as a better fit for me to serve than than say, teaching high school in an challenged inner city (just not as good a fit for who I am).

Why not nursing or becoming a mid-level practioner?

 

[NickRiviera]

Why not nursing or becoming a mid-level practitioner?

He's a PhD engineer and you think he would want to be a nurse based on his responses thus far? C'mon... 🙄

 

[sirus_virus]

Evidence that 70% of physicians are dissatisfied/confused? Surveys I've seen show most being happy.

Why again are you going into medicine? Going by that list you posted, there are lots of things you could consider instead. For example, I saw human resources manager was very high on the list. How about that instead?

1)Because I like medical science.

2)Because I am interested in the business of medicine due to an oversupply of a certain commodity of interest to me.

 

[OncoCaP]

Why not nursing or becoming a mid-level practioner?

I considered those jobs (as well as jobs such as biomedical engineering academic positions, starting another company with medical device or software products, management in healthcare or medical devices/product companies, becoming a lobbyist, and even teaching high school). I really looked at a variety of possibilities. For someone who just wants to help people and perform clinical job tasks, becoming a nurse or mid-level provider could be a good fit. I'm looking for more of a leadership role than what nursing or being a mid-level provides. I'm interested in the possibility of practicing in a clinical research environment, teaching at a medical school, and leading clinical research studies. To be more specific, I would like to perform research on metastasis of prostate and breast cancer to bone marrow and treat patients with such conditions as well. I'm willing to work hard and pay my dues to get there. It is my understanding that the nurses and mid-level practioners are not typically PI's leading such medical research studies. There is nothing wrong with nursing or PA's; these positions just do not seem to be a good fit for my career goals.

P.S. Here is another thread in the allo forum that gives more opinions from various med students about how they knew medicine was right for them. Obviously they aren't done yet and going through med school is different than practicing. However, it is clear from their posts that the decision to go into medicine shouldn't be taken lightly: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=375615 it is a "long hard slog"

 

[johankriek]

geez, seems like there are so many unhappy physicians/doctors out there. I'd hate to work with any of you that negative!

you are nice,,, why dont you private message me? are you single?

and i promise not to be negative

JOhan