Entering a Racing Syndicate???

[Iain]

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With my walls full of racing memorabilia including numerous signed pictures, a roofing tile from Churchill Downs, a loading paddock stable name plate from the 126th Kentucky Derby, etc I was looking into other racing options.

Having sold my polo ponies - I am more then able to afford to enter a racing syndicate. Do you think this would be looked down upon at elitist from a veterinary school? To me does not seem overly extravagant, the cost is only fractionally more expensive then owning horse used for general purpose riding - however it is the sports of kings!!!!

Should I just do it and keep it quiet???

 

[tygris]

**DISCLAIMER** I am NOT posting my opinion here to start a flame-war on this issue. I am NOT trying to openly offend ANYONE or ANYONE's opinions or lifestyles. I am simply stating my OWN *opinion* in response to this question, and I sincerely hope that it does not offend anyone or make anyone desire to hunt me down and kill me 🙂
With that said...

I was going to keep quiet about this particular opinion of mine because of course none of us want to come across as the fuzzy-wuzzy-naive-animal-and-tree-hugger type... but I'm 100% sure that others in the vet med field, faculty and students alike, feel the same way I do. I also feel that I am NOT one of the aforementioned types, and upon second thought I should not have to hesitate with my feelings on an animal welfare issue based on what I know some of the responses I'll get will be.

I digress... I think horse racing is a pretty disgusting and brutal "sport," if you can even call it that. My experience with it was during the 8 months I worked shifts at a 24 hour equine hospital... we received race horses from all around Ohio, Kentucky, Michigan, etc... and I have to say that I was thoroughly disgusted with how the horses were treated, how selfish their owners were (assuming their owners even bothered to accompany them, which most of the time they didn't), and how they were treated as commodities rather than animals.
It's one thing to compromise animal welfare in the name of research that may actually serve some purpose or overall good, but it seems to me that the sacrifices involved in horse racing are only for the good of entertaining the people who seem to enjoy it.
Now I know that there are people out there involved in horse racing that do NOT abuse their animals. But from my experiences, it seems that the majority of the horses involved are truly unfortunate and barely treated as living beings.

*Most importantly* ... the reason I'm expressing to you my strong feelings about this is because I'm very sure, as I said, that other students and faculty alike feel the same way (although I'm also sure many do not). Regardless, I'm not quite sure that you'd want to advertise this given the chance that a faculty member or some of your peers would be disgusted by it. It may inadvertently hamper your time at vet school or beyond. I know we'd all like to think that people don't let their personal feelings get in the way of how they may perceive or treat students, but we are also all well aware of human nature - subconscious or not, it may happen.

Just my two cents, of course you can completely disregard me and anyone else who thinks horse racing sucks in general 🙂 That's your prerogative.

With all THAT said... my experience with race horses is, admittedly, limited. SO if anyone has anything they can tell me to alleviate my disgust with the sport, please feel free. I'm always open to learning things that I may not have known before, and I'd like to think that so many vets out there who are involved with race horses are not ethically questionable by my standards. So I would actually appreciate someone explaining to me (WITHOUT flaming me) as to why I may be mistaken 🙂

 

[wishes]

I'm not really sure if I am qualified to reply since my experience with race horses is limited to retraining ex-racers for careers as performance horses, but my perception of the sport is this:

I certainly think there are a fair share of responsible owners who view there racehorses as athletes or even celebrities and treat them accordingly. While granted racing of any sort it hard on the horses, I believe it can be done in a reasonable manner, and truly there are some horses out there with unbeliveable talent that were simply born to race.

On the other hand, I have seen a lot of horses come off the track ruined for life; physically, mentally, or both. Owners that run their horses to the ground on small circuit tracks hoping to make a buck unfourtunately give the racing industry a bad rapp, destroy a lot of horses, and probably are the majority of racehorse owners.

Just my take on the issue.

 

[UKYWildcat]

Do you think this would be looked down upon at elitist from a veterinary school? To me does not seem overly extravagant, the cost is only fractionally more expensive then owning horse used for general purpose riding - however it is the sports of kings!!!!

Should I just do it and keep it quiet???

I guess I would wonder why it would/should ever come up unless you choose to bring it up. What you do with your own time and money is your own business.

 

[kate_g]

I agree with Tygris that you're probably more likely to encounter "you're a horrible person" than "you're a snobby elitist", either of which could be bad for your ability to network and make connections.

I have a totally non-horse-related consideration... I honestly have no concept of the amount of money you're talking about, knowing nothing about polo ponies or buying into a racing syndicate. But assuming it's more than pocket change, I think I'd be excited that I could pay a bunch of tuition up-front and lessen my future debt load and interest costs. High potential reward generally being accompanied by high risk, I'm not sure investing in race horses as a plan to pay off the debt later is within my personal tolerance. 🙂

 

[UKYWildcat]

I digress... I think horse racing is a pretty disgusting and brutal "sport," if you can even call it that. My experience with it was during the 8 months I worked shifts at a 24 hour equine hospital... we received race horses from all around Ohio, Kentucky, Michigan, etc... and I have to say that I was thoroughly disgusted with how the horses were treated, how selfish their owners were (assuming their owners even bothered to accompany them, which most of the time they didn't), and how they were treated as commodities rather than animals.

QUOTE]

There are two sides to this coin - and I feel I've seen both. Some owners/agents that won't spend a dime on a horse and others that simply because they're an investment in an athelete they'll do whatever it takes to get the horse through. I guess what frustrates me the most is broodmares - if she's worth enough to breed, she's worth enough to treat, imho - and often that's just not the case...so I've killed a lot of broodmares with <week old foals simply because the owners didn't feel she was worth the time or money.

Just curious, Tygris -did you work in Cleveland?

 

[dvm'08]

I spent some time in Ireland doing an externship with some vets there, and i can say without question, that they treat their horses like liquid gold compared to they way some people treat their horses here. I've never seen so many immaculate barns or well groomed and well cared for horses.

It was a refreshing change to see the difference in attitude...

 

[Iain]

Do not worry you will not offend me by any means -

Veterinary medicine is unique because you can have a room full of veterinarians who love animals, but have different opinions about things. One person might find doing $2500 of orthopedic surgery on an old ladies cat and saving its live incredibly rewarding, while other view it as a waste of money and would rather focus farm animals, where savings lives is balanced by the economic impact of procedures. 2 very different view points, both love animals, and both great veterinarians.

Horses are unique animals - to some people they are pets; deserve hugs, kisses, $1000s spent on them if necessary, to others they are investment or working animal where there is no emotional attachment, everything is a business decision. In both scenarios you can have great owners and bad owners. Yes there are some back yard tracks, which run horses till the break down, however how many of us have seen pet horses put down as they were no longer wanted?

In the horse racing world it is very rare for owners to be involved in their day to day care - most of them know very little about horses - at the hospital I volunteer at it is commonplace for insurance companies to call more often then the owners (would an owner even understand what was going on??), for the horses to be picked up/dropped off by a transport company, however these horses regularly come with no spending limit, and instructions to 'do your best' - who would that horse rather have own it at that point, someone who rarely visits it but is willing to spend $15,000+ for its medical bills, or someone who loves it very very much, but can not afford the procedure?

There is a growing need for racetrack vets, to ensure the horses are properly cared for, are in racing condition, and treat any injury/illness that arises. It will take a certain individual who has the balance of the love for the horses, but understands the business. I think someone with a passion for horses and for the sport would fit this role perfectly!!!

 

[tygris]

There are two sides to this coin - and I feel I've seen both. Some owners/agents that won't spend a dime on a horse and others that simply because they're an investment in an athelete they'll do whatever it takes to get the horse through. I guess what frustrates me the most is broodmares - if she's worth enough to breed, she's worth enough to treat, imho - and often that's just not the case...so I've killed a lot of broodmares with <week old foals simply because the owners didn't feel she was worth the time or money.

Just curious, Tygris -did you work in Cleveland?

Yes, I think this was sort of my biggest issue with the race-horse thing... that it seemed like most owners weighed out whether or not to treat their horses (who were suffering injuries from racing most of the time) based on how much treatment was vs. how much the horse was worth. If treatment cost more than the horse, then it was put down. That just rubs me the wrong way, I guess, but like I said I've never been involved with race horses directly... so I'm sure there are owners out there who do not calculate this way. The fact that it does seem to happen quite frequently, however, makes me concerned for the ethics behind racing horses in general. I guess the same is true for brood mares, very sad.

And yes I worked a bit outside of Cleveland. Why do you ask? 🙂

 

[Iain]

I will be honest, and I am not ashamed to admit it - if any of my animals procedure costs more then they are worth, I will put them down - I grew up in a farming community, this was how things were, whether it was a cow, horse, or dog!

We love our animals, take very good care of them, but we understand they are an animal, and have their place accordingly. Although I think people should not buy expensive animals like horses unless they are able to afford them - it makes me very sad to see people remortgage their house, dig deep into their savings paying huge sums of money trying to save an aging or inexpensive horse.

 

[StealthDog]

My issue with being unwilling to pay for racing injuries when they outweigh the cost of the animal is that the animal didn't choose to race itself to the point of injury. The owner is responsible for the animal's condition, which I think should place an obligation to fix the horse if it can be fixed beyond just if it's "worth it". Not to imply that any injury while racing requires owners to choose medical treatment over euthanasia- just the the cost-benefit analysis should be skewed a bit by the fact that the injury was caused by racing itself. I think this could apply to any animal, not just horses. If I were directly responsible for injuring my pet, I would feel a heavier obligation to treat it than if it were injured by some freak accident.

 

[tygris]

My issue with being unwilling to pay for racing injuries when they outweigh the cost of the animal is that the animal didn't choose to race itself to the point of injury. The owner is responsible for the animal's condition, which I think should place an obligation to fix the horse if it can be fixed beyond just if it's "worth it". Not to imply that any injury while racing requires owners to choose medical treatment over euthanasia- just the the cost-benefit analysis should be skewed a bit by the fact that the injury was caused by racing itself. I think this could apply to any animal, not just horses. If I were directly responsible for injuring my pet, I would feel a heavier obligation to treat it than if it were injured by some freak accident.

I totally agree with this.

I will be honest, and I am not ashamed to admit it - if any of my animals procedure costs more then they are worth, I will put them down - I grew up in a farming community, this was how things were, whether it was a cow, horse, or dog!

And I also have a bit of a problem judging the worth of an animal by a monetary amount. I can understand this thought process to the extent of farming or food animal, even research situations, but race horse owners are using these animals for a purpose that is purely entertainment. Really, if you are considering the owners that obviously don't care for their animals and will pretty much race them to death with little consideration, it's the same concept as cock or dog fighting... and nothing really seems to be done by other race horse owners or racing fans to stop this kind of behavior.

While I agree that animals "have their place accordingly," as you put it, I also think there is a limit to that. We as humans in general use animals to promote our lives for the better, but I draw the line when it becomes purely entertainment value at the expense of the animal. As veterinarians, I would hope we would consider the high importance of animal welfare and weigh out the costs-vs-benefits of causing an animal pain. Entertaining ourselves and creating a "sport" is not a justifiable cost of how many animals are abused and neglected, in my opinion.

Perhaps if we had different laws governing race horsing or had different viewpoints on it, as in Ireland, I would feel differently about this.

who would that horse rather have own it at that point, someone who rarely visits it but is willing to spend $15,000+ for its medical bills, or someone who loves it very very much, but can not afford the procedure?

And to answer this... considering the INTENSE behavioral problems and ridiculously high indicators of stress (i.e. stereotypies) that come along with most race horses, and get increasingly WORSE during the weeks they are left at hospitals alone... I would say most animals in general would do better being housed in a way that at least TRIES to promote their natural behaviors. Horses are social creatures. Isolating them just to "do our best" in fixing the damage WE as humans inflected seems doubly negative to me.

 

[Iain]

I think this thread has a danger of going back and fourth - I really think you are judging racing on the bottom of the barrell racing - if you look at the bottom of the barrel anything, pet ownership, farming, animal testing or any other horse discipline it is an ugly sight!! But as with the others the vast majority do a great job and take very good care of their horses.

In quite a few years I want to work in the racing industry as a vet - at least there if I see anything that I do not agree with, or can be improved on I can do something about it!!!

 

[tygris]

In quite a few years I want to work in the racing industry as a vet - at least there if I see anything that I do not agree with, or can be improved on I can do something about it!!!

And I certainly hope you do 🙂

 

[dvm'08]

In quite a few years I want to work in the racing industry as a vet - at least there if I see anything that I do not agree with, or can be improved on I can do something about it!!!

you over estimate the influence you'll have - the big problem with horse people is that they think they know everything - its impossible to tell people that the way they do things is wrong, because THEY'VE been doing it for 20 damn years, and its worked until now, so why fix it... yeah you went to vet school for 4 years, and yeah, maybe you did 4 years of specialty training.... but what the hell do you know?? You tell clients that almost 90 percent of horses involved in intense training have gastric ulcers, and they'll tell you you're a fool and a liar... You tell clients that all those supplements you're feeding them aren't doing $hit all for the horse - and they look at you like you're some kind of freak... And by the time you've worked in the industry long enough to get some respect from people, you're bald because you've been tearing your hair out for the last 20 years, and you're on the verge of retirement....

Equine people are the most frustrating clients you will ever deal with... especially the professionals.... they make you want to smack them upside their heads with the closest blunt object.

 

[tygris]

you over estimate the influence you'll have - the big problem with horse people is that they think they know everything - its impossible to tell people that the way they do things is wrong, because THEY'VE been doing it for 20 damn years, and its worked until now, so why fix it... yeah you went to vet school for 4 years, and yeah, maybe you did 4 years of specialty training.... but what the hell do you know?? You tell clients that almost 90 percent of horses involved in intense training have gastric ulcers, and they'll tell you you're a fool and a liar... You tell clients that all those supplements you're feeding them aren't doing $hit all for the horse - and they look at you like you're some kind of freak... And by the time you've worked in the industry long enough to get some respect from people, you're bald because you've been tearing your hair out for the last 20 years, and you're on the verge of retirement....

Equine people are the most frustrating clients you will ever deal with... especially the professionals.... they make you want to smack them upside their heads with the closet blunt object.

I wasn't going to be the one to say it... I'm glad you did 🙂 Although I think you may want to specify equine *sports* people, because I know a lot of equine people who are amazing.

 

[Iain]

I know at the track you are regularly told what to do - but I think that would be less frustrating then someone who has had a sick horse for 3 days and has tried to treat it with advise from their neighbour, as they can not afford proper veterinary care.

 

[dvm'08]

I wasn't going to be the one to say it... I'm glad you did 🙂 Although I think you may want to specify equine *sports* people, because I know a lot of equine people who are amazing.

fair enough - i know some amazing horse peopl too. (i'm one of them... hahaha.)

 

[tygris]

I know at the track you are regularly told what to do - but I think that would be less frustrating then someone who has had a sick horse for 3 days and has tried to treat it with advise from their neighbour, as they can not afford proper veterinary care.

Well at least a privately owned horse would most likely be sick due to natural causes. Race horse owners usually have injured or sick horses due to racing. God forbid they get sick due to natural causes or old age - who is going to invest the money in them at that pont? Once they're useless on the track they're useless as a living being! I'd rather deal with someone who cares for the LIFE of their horse, not for its value as a tool of gambling and entertainment.

 

[Iain]

Well at least a privately owned horse would most likely be sick due to natural causes.

Actually I think you will find a large number of illnesses are human induces - either by stupidity or by lack of knowledge. This includes avoidable accidents, small intestine impactions due to suddenly changing horse feed to bermuda, abscesses from IM injections and then there was the guy who was trying to clear his horse colic by putting a hose up its rectum to clear an impaction - the horse reptured and died.

Race horse owners usually have injured or sick horses due to racing.

It is actually said, dressage has the rate of injury. It makes sense, race horses just run hard with their nose out, dressage horses use their hind end more, do unnatural lateral work, etc!

Once they're useless on the track they're useless as a living being!

I think that is going a bit far, every person in racing I know are huge supporters of retraining, and rehoming retired race horses.

 

[wishes]

Once they're useless on the track they're useless as a living being!

I think that is going a bit far, every person in racing I know are huge supporters of retraining, and re-homing retired race horses.

I think I have to agree with Iain here. I have personally dealt with and owned a lot of thoroughbreds that were "useless" on the track, due either to injury or lack or talent, but went on to have enormously successful careers as performance/sport horses in other disciplines (hunter/jumper, dressage, eventing).

It is actually said, dressage has the rate of injury. It makes sense, race horses just run hard with their nose out, dressage horses use their hind end more, do unnatural lateral work, etc!

Now this I find very hard to believe! Racing is incredibly hard on horses due to the speed-induced impact and running horses at a very young age. While dressage may be "unnatural" the sport is based on strength and flexibility training designed to minimize injury, plus it is a relatively low impact sport. Many horses that cannot tolerate performance activities such as jumping or eventing are able stay very sound and happy as dressage horses.

I really think you are judging racing on the bottom of the barrel racing - if you look at the bottom of the barrel anything, pet ownership, farming, animal testing or any other horse discipline it is an ugly sight!!

Amen to that 🙂.

 

[tygris]

I think I have to agree with Iain here. I have personally dealt with and owned a lot of thoroughbreds that were "useless" on the track, due either to injury or lack or talent, but went on to have enormously successful careers as performance/sport horses in other disciplines (hunter/jumper, dressage, eventing).

Well I'm glad to hear that 🙂 Still, I was speaking more to injured race horses that are put down because the cost of treatment outweighs their monetary worth.
And none of the justifications in this thread have convinced me that the sport in general is ethically justifiable. As I said before, costs (putting animals to unnatural uses that often result in injuries and behavioral problems)-vs-benefits (gambling and entertainment for people) of racing horses does not weigh out in my opinion. To me, THAT is what makes it different from the examples listed by Iain, i.e. pet ownershp, farming, animal testing, and other horse disciplines... and I feel this necessitates more careful ethical consideration.

 

[Iain]

Now this I find very hard to believe! Racing is incredibly hard on horses due to the speed-induced impact and running horses at a very young age. While dressage may be "unnatural" the sport is based on strength and flexibility training designed to minimize injury, plus it is a relatively low impact sport. Many horses that cannot tolerate performance activities such as jumping or eventing are able stay very sound and happy as dressage horses.
.

I can not remember the exact study - but it went into the physical demands put on dressage horses, and how many prospect did not make it due to this. I think the study was based on level 4 or higher horses, as to be honest below that is general purpose riding!

I said before, costs (putting animals to unnatural uses that often result in injuries and behavioral problems)-vs-benefits (gambling and entertainment for people)

How do you feel about the zoos? Or horse drawn carriages in the city? The USC Mascot (even I felt sorry for that horse - I hope they have more then 1)?Those are all for entertainment, and are not ideal situations for the animals.

 

[tygris]

How do you feel about the zoos? Or horse drawn carriages in the city? The USC Mascot (even I felt sorry for that horse - I hope they have more then 1)?Those are all for entertainment, and are not ideal situations for the animals.

First off, it saddens me to think that anyone who I would normally consider a peer would think that zoos are exclusively entertainment institutions. I'm going to go ahead and make the assumption that you've never actually been affiliated with an AZA institution, and/or you are making this statement based on pure ignorance. #1 zoos do not intentionally place animals in harmful situations to get their kicks for the day (unlike racing horses). They exist as educational institutions that try their hardest to promote conservation messages to the general public and encourage people to care about animals. Some people view zoos as entertainment parks, that is true, but you'll find that the goal of most zoos is to PRESERVE wildlife, not exploit it. #2 zoos make every effort to house animals in natural settings and reduce their stress levels as much as possible given their limited resources. I hardly think this is true for most race horses. #3 zoos contribute significant sums of cash to conservation efforts in captivity and the wild alike. And I do mean SIGNIFICANT. Were it not for grant programs supported by zoological societies at various institutions, much of the current research in zoo and wildlife medicine would go unfunded. What major contributions have racing horses made to the overall well-being of animals or people?

Regardless of that, justifying your ethically questionable sport by speaking of other situations that you *think* constitute poor animal welfare is a fallacy. Two (or three or twenty or whatever) wrongs do not make a right and saying "Well they're doing it so what's wrong if I do" is not a good excuse.

With all that said, I don't know enough about how carriage horses or mascots are treated to have an opinion on whether or not I'm alright with their existence. What I do know about the treatment of race horses I've learned through experience, and I've had enough experience to know that even if some owners are responsible in minimizing compromised animal welfare, most don't seem to be.

Look, I originally told you my opinion so that you would know how some of your faculty and peers may (and likely will) view your interests. Whether or not you choose to care is up to you. You asked for opinions and you got 'em.

 

[Iain]

We can go round in circles - what consitutes as a zoo? Wildlife parks do exactly what you state, and are great. However Sea World on the other hand, is far more geared towards entertainment - they have rides their, the whales do tricks, etc.

I am not sure how extensive your experience with horses, or racing - but from what I have seen although these horses are not loved in the traditional sense they very good care - look at Maria's Storm!!

The role of a racetrack vet is to ensure the horses well being - someone who has experience in racing, I think would be better suited for this role.

FYI I bought into a sydnicate today - here he is!!

 

[DrBowtie]

We can go round in circles - what consitutes as a zoo? Wildlife parks do exactly what you state, and are great. However Sea World on the other hand, is far more geared towards entertainment - they have rides their, the whales do tricks, etc.

I am not sure how extensive your experience with horses, or racing - but from what I have seen although these horses are not loved in the traditional sense they very good care - look at Maria's Storm!!

The role of a racetrack vet is to ensure the horses well being - someone who has experience in racing, I think would be better suited for this role.

FYI I bought into a sydnicate today - here he is!!

Any details?

 

[Iain]

Any details?

3 year old colt based out of the UK - was lightly raced as a 2 year old, nothing spectacular, had a good long rest over the winter, racing fit so hopefully he will go nicely at 3. He is going to race in 6 furlong handicaps.

 

[PAThbrd]

Very cute, leggy... Are you/they going to race him in Europe or will he be coming over to the states?

Congrats! If I were in the financial situation to do so, I would love to own a racehorse. I support the Thoroughbred (and other racing breeds) industry, have worked in it quite a bit and have seen some of the best and most conscientious trainers and managers. Most of the individuals are high class people who genuinely care for the animals they are responsible for. While it may not be the owners themselves that are there, there are so many horse people (trainers, riders, grooms, vets, vet techs, etc.) caring for and loving these horses on a daily basis. Its a shame that there are the not-so-great people out there that give grounds for debates such as these.

Best of luck with your colt!

 

[HorseyVet]

About buying into a syndicate...my only direct opinion on that is that I personally wouldn't want to drop a dime into a horse I wasn't going to ride or otherwise work with some what directly. Depending on your situation, this may not be the case for you, and really it's a personal preference thing where really if you enjoy it, do it.

About most everything else that has been said....horses will always walk a very fine line from a lot of ethical standpoints because they exist in both the worlds of companion animal and food/resource animals.

Very few of the things people do with horses are not hazardous to their health at some level. A person with a hunter will be more concerned about what the impact of his day-day training is on him b/c there the owner wants to insure the longevity of his career. A person with a race horse knows that the horse's career in that discipline has a fairly short course and therefore has different concerns.

A beef cow's career as a living creature often ends the first time she needs any kind of pharmaceutical treatment. Often the cow's medical problems stem from calving, which obviously wouldn't happen anyway if we weren't breeding them to eat them. People breed cows to make money, and people race horses to do the same. Most people who raise cattle do so b/c they like them, for most people who race horses, it is for the same reason. The difference is slim to nihil.

(I do not want to make this into a vegatarian thing, but...this parallel is there...)
Maybe in a perfect world we would all sit down and see that today there are enough alternate sources of protein that we don't need to eat animals, but the fact is that's not how life is right now, and its better to have a world where there are cows and other animals around for people to enjoy, even if that time is less than the possible life span, than to not have them at all.
Regardless of the situation, as a veterinarian you're in the alive and well or well and dead department.

I guess I really don't see a big difference b/w the racing and some of the school horses that I've seen run into the ground. I think of all the kids that loved those horses and who will continue to love and care for horses b/c of their experience.

Horses will generally need to retain their functionality as service animals. The ones that cease to have a productive life who are still cared for are indeed lucky. Most who do typically, however, have already lived a throughly productive career either as a pleasure or sport animal.

 

[dvm'08]

About buying into a syndicate...my only direct opinion on that is that I personally wouldn't want to drop a dime into a horse I wasn't going to ride or otherwise work with some what directly. Depending on your situation, this may not be the case for you, and really it's a personal preference thing where really if you enjoy it, do it.

About most everything else that has been said....horses will always walk a very fine line from a lot of ethical standpoints because they exist in both the worlds of companion animal and food/resource animals.

Very few of the things people do with horses are not hazardous to their health at some level. A person with a hunter will be more concerned about what the impact of his day-day training is on him b/c there the owner wants to insure the longevity of his career. A person with a race horse knows that the horse's career in that discipline has a fairly short course and therefore has different concerns.

A beef cow's career as a living creature often ends the first time she needs any kind of pharmaceutical treatment. Often the cow's medical problems stem from calving, which obviously wouldn't happen anyway if we weren't breeding them to eat them. People breed cows to make money, and people race horses to do the same. Most people who raise cattle do so b/c they like them, for most people who race horses, it is for the same reason. The difference is slim to nihil.

(I do not want to make this into a vegatarian thing, but...this parallel is there...)
Maybe in a perfect world we would all sit down and see that today there are enough alternate sources of protein that we don't need to eat animals, but the fact is that's not how life is right now, and its better to have a world where there are cows and other animals around for people to enjoy, even if that time is less than the possible life span, than to not have them at all.
Regardless of the situation, as a veterinarian you're in the alive and well or well and dead department.

I guess I really don't see a big difference b/w the racing and some of the school horses that I've seen run into the ground. I think of all the kids that loved those horses and who will continue to love and care for horses b/c of their experience.

Horses will generally need to retain their functionality as service animals. The ones that cease to have a productive life who are still cared for are indeed lucky. Most who do typically, however, have already lived a throughly productive career either as a pleasure or sport animal.

there is nothing better than a 12 oz slab of Prime Rib, cooked medium rare off a AAA Alberta Beef Cow.

I wouldn't give up steak for all the vegetable protein in the universe...

 

[tygris]

there is nothing better than a 12 oz slab of Prime Rib, cooked medium rare off a AAA Alberta Beef Cow.

I wouldn't give up steak for all the vegetable protein in the universe...

Haha, MAN I wish you were at Michigan. I think you and I would get along quite nicely 😉

Horseyvet- You missed the whole point of my arguments before. The costs-vs-benefits thing. The thing I mentioned separates race horses from other animal-uses from an ethical standpoint. I mentioned it several times so I won't go into it again here, but you should go back and read it... because your statements are pretty much all addressed by it. Aside from the vegetarian thing of course, which I'm not even going to touch 🙂

 

[PAThbrd]

there is nothing better than a 12 oz slab of Prime Rib, cooked medium rare off a AAA Alberta Beef Cow.

I wouldn't give up steak for all the vegetable protein in the universe...

mmm steak! I'm with you on that one 😉

 

[HorseyVet]

I mentioned it several times so I won't go into it again here, but you should go back and read it... because your statements are pretty much all addressed by it. Aside from the vegetarian thing of course, which I'm not even going to touch 🙂

I just skimed everyone's posts so I purposefully wasn't adressing anyone directly.

About vegatarianism...first I'm not arguing for or against it....nor am I one...but I also don't think any of the arguements for justifying meat consumption really function at any internally consistant meta level at this point in western culture...that being said, I'm sure its more than a can of worms on here that I'd like not to continue past that..

 

[dvm'08]

I just skimed everyone's posts so I purposefully wasn't adressing anyone directly.

About vegatarianism...first I'm not arguing for or against it....nor am I one...but I also don't think any of the arguements for justifying meat consumption really function at any internally consistant meta level at this point in western culture...that being said, I'm sure its more than a can of worms on here that I'd like not to continue past that..

my "internally consistant meta level" or what ever that means, loves meat. thats all the justification i need.

pass the BBQ sauce please....

 

[youthman]

beautiful horse!

and meat is good for you! plant based proteins do not compare.

 

[UKYWildcat]

A beef cow's career as a living creature often ends the first time she needs any kind of pharmaceutical treatment. Often the cow's medical problems stem from calving, which obviously wouldn't happen anyway if we weren't breeding them to eat them. People breed cows to make money, and people race horses to do the same. Most people who raise cattle do so b/c they like them, for most people who race horses, it is for the same reason. The difference is slim to nihil.

OK, it's obvious that you really have never worked with beef cattle before or have very little exposure to the industry. First, the majority of cows out there aren't the ones being eaten - so we can and do treat cows, or else your breeding program would go to complete crap. Second, even heifers and steers can be/are treated - with respect to carcass quality - ever hear of BQA?

 

[HorseyVet]

OK, it's obvious that you really have never worked with beef cattle before or have very little exposure to the industry. First, the majority of cows out there aren't the ones being eaten - so we can and do treat cows, or else your breeding program would go to complete crap. Second, even heifers and steers can be/are treated - with respect to carcass quality - ever hear of BQA?

Good Grief....I haven't had much experience with large feed lots or mega dairies but have had a fairly decent amount of experience at smaller operations and facilities. I never said they're not ever treated; obviously it depends on the situation, age of animal, etc.

I'm really about done with SDN b/c I'm really getting tired of everyone always assuming that other posters must be ignorant and/or reading the absolute worst interpretation out of a post.

I don't really think I, or any one else should have to spend centuries constructing a post such that it "covers all the bases" and cannot be mal-interpreted...nor do I really think I need to submit a resume to back up every sentance.

 

[dvm'08]

Good Grief....I haven't had much experience with large feed lots or mega dairies but have had a fairly decent amount of experience at smaller operations and facilities. I never said they're not ever treated; obviously it depends on the situation, age of animal, etc.

I'm really about done with SDN b/c I'm really getting tired of everyone always assuming that other posters must be ignorant and/or reading the absolute worst interpretation out of a post.

I don't really think I, or any one else should have to spend centuries constructing a post such that it "covers all the bases" and cannot be mal-interpreted...nor do I really think I need to submit a resume to back up every sentance.

 

[HorseyVet]

That's the kind of BS I'm talking about. Gets really old.

 

[dvm'08]

That's the kind of BS I'm talking about. Gets really old.

Woe is you...

 

[pathognomonic]

Before becoming a small animal practitioner (much better hours), I worked on performance horses (TBs, STDBDs, hunters/jumpers, dressage and 3-day horses). The life of a race horse at a "bush track" has a tendency to be everything the anti-racing group would have you believe (especially if the horse in question is a gelding). I have had the honor of working with many performance horses that were treated better than your child however. Sometimes this is because the owner feels the horse has "companion value" above and beyond a dollar value. Sometimes it is the true dollar value of the animal that ensures it gets good care.

There are always a few bad apples, but the honest truth is that I run into far more pet (dog and cat) owners that neglect/abuse or choose to euthanize for preventable/treatable diseases because they'd rather just "get another dog". I actually had a client tell me after his puppy died from parvo that he wasn't going to vaccinate the littermates because it was too expensive and that he'd just breed his (mixed-bred) female again and get replacement puppies if they died of parvo too. Ignorance and malice is not limited to large animal medicine and is far more common that I ever realized. Teaching hospital clients are the best of the best. When you get out into the real world you get the real dirtbags.