ER Physicians

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Unfortunately, $100/hr is not the going wage in the majority of the country and to divide 300k/yr by $100 will give you TERRIBLE numbers!!!


Lets look at something very very simple.

$120/hr for 4 10 hour (40 hours a week)shifts per week= 120x40=4800
$4800x52 weeks per year= $249,600 a year.

Something I have been trying to explain for a long time! That probably will not include benefits, but perhaps it may include some. Regardless, this is not a difficult number to achieve and is VERY likely.
As for both of my attendings that made >300k a year his life was absolutely wonderful. THeir lives were wonderful, and were able to spend ample time with their families and on vacation...I will say it again, he worked roughly 4 12 hour shifts, while the other worked 2 24hr shifts per week.

This really isn't a big deal.
Have a good new year and drive safely.

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Yes $100/hr will make you work more hours than $120/hr trying to achieve the same salary 300K. As for your calculations, you are still 50K short of 300K. I stand by the numbers. I'm sure starting wages ($/hr) vary in different parts of the country and these take into account not only the supply and demand but the amount of managed care, discounted ffs and capitated reimbursement. Actually 4 x 4 = 16 shifts/ month. Granted at 10hrs/shift instead of 12hrs per shift it comes out to 40 vs 48hrs. Still, you'll probably need 1 more shift (10 or 12hrs) per week to make 300K+ by your calculations. Like I said, you are paid by the # of hours worked. Just give me $/hr and if we assume benefits are included in addition to salary, we can figure out how much you will make.

5 (10 hr shifts) per week @ $120/hr . 120x10x5=$6000. $6000/wk x 52wks = $312K. Even this means working 50 hrs per week, (5- 10hr shifts/wk) and not the mythical 36hrs per week, 3 days of 12 hr shifts.

You can't get something for nothing.

Cheers.
 
This arguement is pretty pointless but it is amusing and I couldn't resist jumping in and adding some fuel to the fire. Don't forget taxes...those take a big chunk of that $300,000. There is also bonuses and other compensation that could be included in the total salary package such as health insurance, malpractice insurance, travel expenses for conferences etc..., paid vacation, sick-leave, equipment costs (lab coats, journals, palm pilots, loops, etc...)that might contribute to a 300,000 total. Also not everyone is paid by the hour, some doctors are salaried.

Keep up the good work.
 
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I already spoke about benefits and how those are usually in addition to your salary rate. Yes some are salaried employees, but the # of hours or shifts worked per year is "defined". You can always calculate $/hr from that. Yes, every contract will have it's differences and clauses. We are trying to make things simple. I could think of alot more benefits that could be construed as total salary package. Look at the advertisements in the ER journals, do they say $/hr plus benefits including malpractice and paid vacation, health, dental, etc?

Yes, I was thinking that taxes will take a big chunk out as well. This can be 50% depending on what state you live in.

I doubt however that this discussion was pointless as you claim.
 
FREEEDOM...WHAT'S THE AVERAGE AGE OF YOUR ATTENDINGS?...READ IN POSTS SOMEWHERE THAT ONLY "YOUNGSTERS"COULD KEEP-UP IN ER...BY THE WAY:HOW MANY SHADES OF BROWN? :D
 
Wow, i have had alot of EM attendings.

Oldest: 55
youngest: 28

Average: 40ish (roughly 10-15yrs post residency)
 
Originally posted by Voxel:
•I already spoke about benefits and how those are usually in addition to your salary rate. Yes some are salaried employees, but the # of hours or shifts worked per year is "defined". You can always calculate $/hr from that. Yes, every contract will have it's differences and clauses. We are trying to make things simple. I could think of alot more benefits that could be construed as total salary package. Look at the advertisements in the ER journals, do they say $/hr plus benefits including malpractice and paid vacation, health, dental, etc?

Yes, I was thinking that taxes will take a big chunk out as well. This can be 50% depending on what state you live in.

I doubt however that this discussion was pointless as you claim.•••

Hi Voxel,

The main issue I take with your numbers is that they assume one universal pay schedule. As you admit, salaries vary drastically depending on where you decide to set up shop. Having said that, one can make vast amounts of money in virtually ANY field of medicine if they are willing to move westward, but not too far westward.

My arguments pertain to choice locations where everyone seems to want to go. I realize your particular interests differ, but the hot spots seem to be around big cities like new york. I have several close friends in the field, both fresh out of residency, and those with a couple of years under their belt in this region. The salaries are simply not anywhere near what you describe. They are making between 150-200 to start with a cap at about 200-225.

I would argue that family medicine offers a better lifestyle, more flexibility, and equal pay if one was willing to move to a more westerly locale. ER physicians make nice money in choice locations out of residency 150-200, but it doesn't generally go much higher.

My knowledge also includes the southern Florida areas as well where the salaries, as reported by friends in the business, is a bit higher than NY, but nowhere near what you describe.

Medicine is a funny business where salary variations are extreme. With a 1000+ ER docs coming into their own each year, the cities have already filled up, with salaries heading south. If geography isn't as important, than fine compensation can be had, even at the levels you suggest, in less choice and westerly locations.
 
I'm not sure if all those comments were directed at me. Since I never stated what the actual going pay rate is. I have said that this rate varies and that we can calculate the salary based upon the going rate and assuming benefits are paid. I'm not really sure what the going rates are out there. All I did was simple math calculations. I was trying to point out that the number of shifts or hours worked to achieve a certain salary, 300K, depends on the going rate. The higher the going rate ($/hr) the less shifts or hours you will have to work to achieve 300K. I do not doubt that some ER attendings make 300K, but at the rates mentioned ($100-$120/hr) I calculated the number of hours worked. It seems that at $120/hr you need to work about 50hrs/wk to achieve 300K+ in salary. I would like for people to understand that given these numbers, you will not make 300K+ unless you work more than the mythical 36 hours per week. There is no free lunch. You can't have it both ways and need to work harder to earn more. However, I do not doubt there are ER physicians working 50 hrs/wk and making 300K+. I agree that the most highly sought after work areas like NYC, SF, LA, Boston, etc will compensate one less ($/hr) than St. Louis, Kansas City, Indianappolis, etc.
 
Nope, this is a pointless discussion.
 
I'm sure that's what you tell your patients, colleagues, friends, etc when you finish a discussion with them. Good luck in EM, Freedom.
 
Originally posted by Voxel:
•I'm sure that's what you tell your patients, colleagues, friends, etc when you finish a discussion with them. Good luck in EM.•••

Voxel,

Apparently I misinterpreted parts of your post. Your arguments are spot on.
 
Okay, I've been following this thread for a while and I can't help but wonder: Why are you all bickering? I understand that everone who's posting here wants to be right, and that's understandable. However, we all know that we aren't going to get any converts here! I doubt that the next post will be "wow, [insert name here], you're right, I'm such an idiot." Granted, it is a great exchange among people who obviously have a passion for the truth - a very important quality in anyone.

In a nutshell, I'd love information about EM without having to worry about the mudslinging. So, keep giving out the info - Thanks!!!
 
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Listen up Voxel and Pseudomonas,

The reason I said this was "pointless" is EXACTLY what ATC2MD had stated...it is going in circles and is a waste of energy. No one is agreeing, exept on page 2 or 3 ...and since then it is just going round and round and round and round. I am dizzy from it and none the wiser.

Good luck in your respective professions, and the cheap shots stop here fellas...how bout that?
 
Just because people do not agree, does not mean that the discussion itself is pointless. I think it is useful to look at things from many perspectives. The truth is not always what one wants to believe. A rational examination of the facts is useful. Argueing with people who will not listen to reason is pointless.
 
I'm going to make a bold statement here. There is not an ER doctor in the country that is straight out of residency and is working 36 hours a week and is making 225K like freedom is saying. Furthermore I highly doubt that there is a er doc in the world, no matter how many years of experience, that is making 300k if he is working 3 twelve hour shifts a week. There er docs that make that much but i gurantee you that they either have additional adminstrative responsibilities or work additional hours. Freedom if er docs make this much why is it that every salary survey i have ever seen says that er docs start of at 150-175k and after 5-7 years peak at 190 to 210k. I mean can 5 different salary surveys be THAT inaccurate. You can make alot of money in ER if your willing to work the hours. For the most part it's salary by the hour, and i can gurantee you that 36 hours of work a week will NOT = 225 - 300k a year.
 
I agree that the average salary is often on the order of 175-200 k, however I know for a fact that positions in the deep south pay 225 k+ right out of residency( I have friends in these jobs in louisianna). also areas with a shortage of board certified er docs pay top dollar.one of the eds that I work at pays their docs $145/hr(no benefits except malpractice and 2 weeks paid vacation) and recently hired several new grads at this rate for 40 hrs/ week. 160 hrs/mo x 12 months x $145/hr = $278,400/yr
not trying to fan the flames, but there is good money to be had in em if you know where to look.
 
Originally posted by Voxel:
•Just because people do not agree, does not mean that the discussion itself is pointless. I think it is useful to look at things from many perspectives. The truth is not always what one wants to believe. A rational examination of the facts is useful. Argueing with people who will not listen to reason is pointless.•••

Very well said Voxel. Debate, even heated debate with widely divergent viewpoints can be very useful. Unfotunately some people can see this discussion for what it is and launch into violent diatribes that attack posters and not their posts.

P.S. I accidentally quoted the wrong post earlier.
 
Originally posted by godfather:
•I'm going to make a bold statement here. There is not an ER doctor in the country that is straight out of residency and is working 36 hours a week and is making 225K like freedom is saying. Furthermore I highly doubt that there is a er doc in the world, no matter how many years of experience, that is making 300k if he is working 3 twelve hour shifts a week. There er docs that make that much but i gurantee you that they either have additional adminstrative responsibilities or work additional hours. Freedom if er docs make this much why is it that every salary survey i have ever seen says that er docs start of at 150-175k and after 5-7 years peak at 190 to 210k. I mean can 5 different salary surveys be THAT inaccurate. You can make alot of money in ER if your willing to work the hours. For the most part it's salary by the hour, and i can gurantee you that 36 hours of work a week will NOT = 225 - 300k a year.•••


I believe that the poster you are referring to has grossly misrepresented the salaries of ER physicians. I don't speak based on what attendings tell me. I speak from what close life long friends have shared accepting these positions in the past several years. I also speak from published surveys. ER physicians make decent money out of residency, but just because a few spots in highly remote and undesirable locales push the rate a bit higher doesn't mean it is typical.

Additionally, any type of physician in these remote locations can make phenomenal salaries including pediatricians and family docs, both fields largely considered less lucretive. I wouldn't make gross generalizations about em either. For most people going into these fields, the salaries will be much much lower.
 
Originally posted by emedpa:
•I agree that the average salary is often on the order of 175-200 k, however I know for a fact that positions in the deep south pay 225 k+ right out of residency( I have friends in these jobs in louisianna). also areas with a shortage of board certified er docs pay top dollar.one of the eds that I work at pays their docs $145/hr(no benefits except malpractice and 2 weeks paid vacation) and recently hired several new grads at this rate for 40 hrs/ week. 160 hrs/mo x 12 months x $145/hr = $278,400/yr
not trying to fan the flames, but there is good money to be had in em if you know where to look.•••


Fan away! :) While I don't necessarily agree with everything you conclude, I'm happy to say I can do so in a civil and respectable way. Again my point is that ANY field of medicine can have these higher paying slots found in highly remote, largely UNDESIRABLE locations. This reflects the fact that the vast majority of attendings have little to no interest in moving to these desolate locations, not trends in emergency medicine. As a field, you make pretty decent money, especially considering a short 3 years of training, but the overwhelming majority of ER physicians will not make anywhere near what you describe.
 
Dear Jesus, do you people like to argue!!

The resident I spoke of Godfather, works 36-48 hrs/wk (3-4 12 hr shifts) making 15 shifts/month. This person is graduating from a U. of Ill Program and is one of 2 people from that program with starting offers over 210k. (and not all of them have accepted offers yet) I don't really care if you believe me, because it is fact. And like I said previously, which you fail to listen (so write it down), she will be working in St. Louis at 2 hospitals, one of them is St. Mary's.

Good grief, why do you people even care. How about we debate the price of rice in Beijing or perhaps the cost of Maize in pre-Columbian America!!

Come on guys, debating the salary of an EM doc is silly, especially if none of you are entering the field. Regarding what some listings of salary state EM docs make, you have to remember, only recently have Board Certified EM docs entered most practices, pushing out the FP or IM docs that work the ED. BC EM physicians demand more money (at least $20/hr more), and they get it. Much like a board certified General Surgeon can demand more than one who is not board certified.

what year are you and what are you entering? Be truthful. I think this topic is a bit over done, don't you guys?
 
I'm MS4 and entering radiology. That does not mean that I have not a) done a rotation in the ED, b) have other MS4's who are entering EM, and c) personally know friends of the family who are EM attendings.

That also does not mean this discussion is pointless, nor does it mean that I cannot contribute to the discussion if I am not going into your field. I never said some of what you said is not true, so I am not sure what your beef with me really is. However, calling our discussion pointless and saying that I cannot contribute because I am not going into the field is narrow-minded.

You really cannot make 300K working 36 hours/wk as an ER attending unless you get a much higher going rate $150+/hr and that you may find in the boonies, but I doubt you will find this in any major city straight from residency.
 
Voxel, guy...my attending didn't work 36 hours a week. First of all, one attending (like I said earlier) worked 2 24 hour shifts and the other worked roughly 4 12 hour shifts, both had years of experience working in St. Louis...and both made over 300k. Both were FACEP.
The resident, was offered a job (like I said again and again) working 3-4 12 hr shifts/week.

I NEVER EVER said you had nothing to offer, I said, "why do you care?". In the same token, radiologists make varying wages, and work varying hours. Some may make 200k some may make 400k, some may work 20hrs/wk, some may work 60 hrs.

I have chosen EM because it is the most challenging environment and most fun environment I had worked in. Every single one of my attendings had a great lifestyle, and was able to spend tremendous amounts of time with family. Each attending and resident seemed to actually enjoy themselves while working with each other. My previous choice was Ortho, and nobody had fun. Call sucked, and many of the attendings were malignant. I just have not found that to be true in any of the ED's I had worked.

Good luck in radiology, and perhaps we can talk about other issues.
 
"Come on guys, debating the salary of an EM doc is silly, especially if none of you are entering the field." -Freedom

My point is that it does not matter whether I am entering the field or not. Maybe someone that is important to me, is entering or in EM, maybe that's why I care. Maybe I can educate my fellow MS4s and MS3s or they can educate me by telling me what they think of this debate. Maybe this will be useful to other people reading this thread. Apparently some of these things did not occur to you.

We can discuss radiology income as well if you wish (in a different thread) and what it takes to earn a certain level of income as a radiologist. If we did this I would not tell you, why do you care, you're not going to be a radiologist. I would not dismiss or discount your statements simply on that basis.
 
"Good grief, why do you people even care"
That is what I said a paragraph before, and still I never said you had nothing to offer...I NEVER SAID THAT.
My point is that why are you arguing? If you wish to educate a student, point them to a person entering the field or someone in the field, that is why I am have been on this thread. You have nothing to prove, I am sure you will be a good radiologist, a good physician, but there is a time when a discussion is going absolutely nowhere and dies in a "he said, she said" suffocating mess.
The facts have been so dilluted by this discussion, it no longer helps anyone.
I have chosen EM because it is the most challenging environment and most fun environment I had worked in. Every single one of my attendings had a great lifestyle, and was able to spend tremendous amounts of time with family. Each attending and resident seemed to actually enjoy themselves while working with each other. My previous choice was Ortho, and nobody had fun. Call sucked, and many of the attendings were malignant. I just have not found that to be true in any of the ED's I had worked.

Someone kill this thread please.
Have a good day.
 
Freedom my friend, there is a little bit of a difference between working 36 hours a week and 48 hours a week. Wouldn't you say!
 
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