ERAS Stats- RadOnc Uptrending

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Any reason for the extreme pessimism? Not seeking congratulations, but why throw shade? I've been on SDN for over 10 years, and was reading the rad onc forum for almost as long, I am well aware of the job market, how bad people have been burned, etc. I am very happy with my offer, and your post speaks volumes of why people don't like SDN rad onc.
Definitely NOT shade, at all.

What I mean is the same reason why I don't consider the ARRO survey "good" evidence of the job market:

It is very easy to give a description of a job that is exciting and positive. I am ABSOLUTELY not questioning your salary or location.

What I am questioning is if the baggage that comes with this job will be worth it. And I'm talking about all jobs, not you or anyone in particular.

This comes from my personal experience and the experience of friends and colleagues.

How many people do you know who are in the same job right now that they started with?

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Dug through my bookmarks for this: Jackson & Coker Finds Over 50% Leave First Job within Five Years

This was from 2012. I think there's a newer publication which showed something like 2/3rds. But anyway, from this J&C survey (which included RadOnc...barely, but at least we're mentioned):

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Going through my phone right now, looking at all the practicing Radiation Oncologists I've personally texted in the last week:

Total of 13 RadOncs
Excluding the three in Year 1 (because, you know, it's October)
Of the remaining 10:

Five people in post-residency Year Two/Three = 2 changed jobs after 1 year (40%)
Five people in post-residency Years Four+ = 3 changed jobs at least once after year 4 (60%)

Before the current Great Resignation/job churn era, I would say RadOnc in particular was slightly less than 50% in the first 5 years, only because of the inherent tightness of a small market.

Considering hospital employment is especially common for RadOnc, and location is important to many of us...at least 50/50 chance that any RadOnc either leaves, or tries to leave, their first job.
 
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What a mean post. Denigrating while adding zero to the conversation. Congratulations

I'll take what I can get as far as good job market news. Glad to hear it.
The flip side of that is that we all know boomers who should have hung it up years ago and have been holding on to practices and gigs way too long, and covid is finally doing what nothing else could, so let's be grateful, right?
 
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Definitely NOT shade, at all.

What I mean is the same reason why I don't consider the ARRO survey "good" evidence of the job market:

It is very easy to give a description of a job that is exciting and positive. I am ABSOLUTELY not questioning your salary or location.

What I am questioning is if the baggage that comes with this job will be worth it. And I'm talking about all jobs, not you or anyone in particular.

This comes from my personal experience and the experience of friends and colleagues.

How many people do you know who are in the same job right now that they started with?
Don't know a single person who is still at their first job. Have heard of one person i don't know well and that's it. Literally everyone i know has switched jobs at least once since training. Some real outliers like to do it q2-3 years 😂
 
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Don't know a single person who is still at their first job. Have heard of one person i don't know well and that's it. Literally everyone i know has switched jobs at least once since training
This is NOT communicated well to residents and med students, and is entirely a function of the training system we've created.

In med school, you're constantly changing instructors/faculty in pre-clinical and clinical environments. Because it's rare to abruptly leave, schools can adjust who's teaching/leading rotations and students will functionally never "see" job changes.

Then you get to residency and it's "tunnel vision". You really only get a sense of your own department in your own institution. Plus, if/when faculty do leave, it's often spun (correctly or not) as a career advancement move.

So, for EVERYWHERE ELSE, which is the bulk of the country: there is a very high turnover rate for first jobs.

Why don't we hear about this?

1) As always, there's an ego/shame factor. Leaving a job can have the optics of failure for Type A neurotic folks in medicine (see: Spratt's comments about Simul).

2) There's no platform or motivation for this to be widely discussed. The "Publication Machine" is dominated by the same people teaching students and residents. But even if it wasn't, there's no real motivation for someone to write more than an opinion piece on Medium about the churn.

As always: this is why the ARRO Survey being held as the Gold Standard for the RadOnc Job Market is insane. All of the data is collected before residents have even graduated, let alone worked a single day.
 
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Agree with this.

The issue (right now) isnt that one can’t get a job. As one becomes more experienced, the easier it is see what makes up a “good job” vs a “bad job.”
That is a good point. I know I had no idea what to look for when I was interviewing.
Maybe we should start a thread defining what good PP jobs, good hospital employed jobs, and good academic jobs are… this way new grads can at least go into their interviews with their eyes open
 
Don't know a single person who is still at their first job. Have heard of one person i don't know well and that's it. Literally everyone i know has switched jobs at least once since training. Some real outliers like to do it q2-3 years 😂
I still have my first job… granted, I have only been there for three years, but no plans to move anytime soon.
 
I don’t think of being in same job forever is a positive for all, definitely for most.

Yes, I’m extreme in 4th job in 13 years but I love the variety of experiences, seeing different parts of America and making new friends.

One man’s tuna is another man’s cigarettes.

If 90% stayed in first job, that would be a sign of a sticky labor market, and that’s good either.
 
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Just a blip, but of the 10 that graduated around me 6 are in the same job and 5 of those are very unlikely to ever leave without drastic changes occurring.
 
Just a blip, but of the 10 that graduated around me 6 are in the same job and 5 of those are very unlikely to ever leave without drastic changes occurring.
Eh, I would say your observation is within one standard deviation of the report.

I remain excited for the ASTRO job study project. Worst case scenario, even if it's flawed, it's something more substantial than surveying PGY-5 residents and leadership using those results as the Gold Standard for job market health.

While I am very pleased to see this year's job availability, it's impossible to make inferences about the quality or durability of the job.

1:1 "person retires and you take over the exact same job" is probably the most stable position anyone can take, and predictions of the future of that job have the highest probability of accuracy.

But expansion jobs are murky. Expansion in terms of new facilities are good...as long as those facilities exist. I would personally shy away from any "staff our new satellite" gigs if the satellite isn't already actively under construction or already built.

Expansion in terms of "so-and-so wants to have less clinical responsibilities"...extra murky. Because now you have more people drawing salaries but not more reimbursement to pay them. And if the person "dialing back" actually decides to stick around or something after a couple years...
 
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Didn't graduate yet, but I am signed, few friends are signed or about to sign as new grads too. Seems like one of the better job markets rad onc has had. I was able to negotiate a (in my view) competitive salary with reasonable terms. I will be in a desirable location. Friend also negotiated higher salary in an extremely competitive location. We both had multiple offers, so that was our leverage.

Not to dismiss the real problems in our field or difficulty others are going through, but I was expecting to end up in Salina Kansas.

Hey congrats!
 
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It’s a strong job market for new grads this year.

Another reason the job market is currently good for new grads is that the administrators are using this environment as an opportunity to "cull the herd."

Too many old cows (boomer rad oncs) eating up your grain (profit), while the young calves (millennial new grads) are are going hungry (no offers with student loans)? Send em to the slaughter house....
 
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Radonc departments have a lot of cash from price gouging. Chairs are exquisitely sensitive to the job situation. You think 2 million dollar Lou is going to let an LIJ grad go unemployed over the next several years?
Over the next few years they are going to hire grads to satellites at 1/2 the salary or less of a senior attending. Pts per doc has to fall- it’s the math stupid! I have personal knowledge of chairs trying to takeover/contract with community hospitals to have a respository for their grads. (And displacing the community docs)
They aren’t even looking to make much of a margin from these takeovers, just a place to put their docs!
Expect departments to adopt all sorts of time consuming rituals to justify the new positions (doc present from start to finish in the sim, endless chart rounds and contour reviews. Maybe an mri/halcyon with a doc present all day making insignificant adaptions?
It is incontrovertible at this point that pts per doc is falling unlike almost any field in medicine. This bubble will pop.
 
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Radonc departments have a lot from money due price gouging. Chairs are exquisitely sensitive to the job situation. You think 2 million dollar Luo is going to let an LIJ grad be unemployed over the next several years?
Over the next few years they are going to hire grads to satellites at 1/2 the salary or less of a senior attending. Pts per doc has to fall- it’s the math stupid! I have personal knowledge of chairs trying to takeover/contract with community hospitals to have a respository for their grads. (And displacing the community docs)

Expect departments to adopt all sorts of time consuming rituals to justify the new positions (doc present from start to finish in the sim, endless chart rounds and contour reviews. Maybe an mri/halcyon with a doc present all day making insignificant adaptions?
Gotta support all that admin bloat somehow!

I recently had fiscal send me the numbers for my department for this year. In collections - not charges, actual collections - enough billing is done in my name to cover my salary in about 2 weeks.

However, the idiots in "management" are arguing over the cost of a 1.0 FTE secretary to cover the front desk.

At this point I wouldn't be against just...a reboot. Of the whole thing.
 
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Gotta support all that admin bloat somehow!

I recently had fiscal send me the numbers for my department for this year. In collections - not charges, actual collections - enough billing is done in my name to cover my salary in about 2 weeks.

However, the idiots in "management" are arguing over the cost of a 1.0 FTE secretary to cover the front desk.

At this point I wouldn't be against just...a reboot. Of the whole thing.
As a rule in my system collectiosn are abt 25% of billling
 
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Another reason the job market is currently good for new grads is that the administrators are using this environment as an opportunity to "cull the herd."

Too many old cows (boomer rad oncs) eating up your grain (profit), while the young calves (millennial new grads) are are going hungry (no offers with student loans)? Send em to the slaughter house....
Does not happen in certain depts and practices. Even today
 
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ERAS as of 10/05 each season.
2023- Overall 220: 136 MD, 68 IMG, 16 DO
2022- Overall 186: 121 MD, 53 IMG, 12 DO
2020- Overall 185: 139 MD, 37 IMG, 9 DO
2018- Overall 238: 211 MD, 18 IMG, 9 DO

Average apps per applicant 38 in 2022 and 2023, ~58 in 2018
Programs have an average of 99 Apps so far in 2023, low was 83 Apps in 2022, and back in 2018 they had ~160 Apps.
Any idea how the traditional hellpits are doing?
 
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Any idea how the traditional hellpits are doing?
A PM regarsing a recently unmatched hellpit told me this. Nothing was learned from recent unmatched cycle. They got warm bodies in the soap match. They all still have jobs. Notes and contours are getting done. They learned nothing because nothing is wrong from their POV. This coming cycle they are simply interviewing everyone with a pulse who applied. Zoom changed the hellpit game because they get to rank even more people. Rise in FMGs apps leaves more desperate people you can take advantage of in the match. You will see the same soap cycle again this year.
 
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Bear in mind that for many FMGs, a 200k/yr career in the US still beats practicing back home when taking into account USA living standards. Barring change in policy, any and all Rad Onc spots will be filled in the Match and SOAP. Welcome to the woes of the middle-class labor market. Not just a punch-line on late-night TV anymore
 
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A PM regarsing a recently unmatched hellpit told me this. Nothing was learned from recent unmatched cycle. They got warm bodies in the soap match. They all still have jobs. Notes and contours are getting done. They learned nothing because nothing is wrong from their POV. This coming cycle they are simply interviewing everyone with a pulse who applied. Zoom changed the hellpit game because they get to rank even more people. Rise in FMGs apps leaves more desperate people you can take advantage of in the match. You will see the same soap cycle again this year.
You know I’m in full agreement with regards to supply.

If I read this correctly, the people they are matching are getting the job done and those people are graduating and getting jobs. It seems the program you are talking about is doing the rational thing by doing what they did the year before?

Desperate FMGs literally built the rural and public health system in America :)
 
You know I’m in full agreement with regards to supply.

If I read this correctly, the people they are matching are getting the job done and those people are graduating and getting jobs. It seems the program you are talking about is doing the rational thing by doing what they did the year before?

Desperate FMGs literally built the rural and public health system in America :)
Of course they are getting the job done! This is a very low denominator/standard. Got a pulse and fingers to move a mouse and type a note. Whatever. They will get A job. Amazing program with no issues, lots of fake news out there you know ;) Everyone thinks their program should not be cut. Best to cut the baby in half so we dont have to make any difficult choices and appear “fair”
 
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Fully agree - radiation oncology is not a particular challenging specialty. We just pretend it is because we matched when it was competitive.

And you are right again - programs with no issues and no complaints from residents will continue to maintain accreditation. It takes courage to actually make change. See Cornell experience.
 
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You know I’m in full agreement with regards to supply.

If I read this correctly, the people they are matching are getting the job done and those people are graduating and getting jobs. It seems the program you are talking about is doing the rational thing by doing what they did the year before?

Desperate FMGs literally built the rural and public health system in America :)
At some point the music will stop and there will be no jobs. Current trajectory is not sustainable.
 
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At some point the music will stop and there will be no jobs. Current trajectory is not sustainable.
Agree! If an APM goes through and people correctly interpret supervision, will be dismal situation
 
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Fully agree - radiation oncology is not a particular challenging specialty. We just pretend it is because we matched when it was competitive.

And you are right again - programs with no issues and no complaints from residents will continue to maintain accreditation. It takes courage to actually make change. See Cornell experience.
If it’s not so challenging, why do we care so much about minuscule data!
 
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BECAUSE KNOWING THE DATA MEANS YOU CAN GO FROM 6MM MARGINS TO 5MM! Duhh
Lol and act smugly knowing I’m a better rad onc until the next person tells me that they are now using 4mm margins or a cooler new hypofractionation number!
 
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Lol and act smugly knowing I’m a better rad onc until the next person tells me that they are now using 4mm margins or a cooler new hypofractionation number!
Margins? I just omit radiation.
 
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Definitely NOT shade, at all.

What I mean is the same reason why I don't consider the ARRO survey "good" evidence of the job market:

It is very easy to give a description of a job that is exciting and positive. I am ABSOLUTELY not questioning your salary or location.

What I am questioning is if the baggage that comes with this job will be worth it. And I'm talking about all jobs, not you or anyone in particular.

This comes from my personal experience and the experience of friends and colleagues.

How many people do you know who are in the same job right now that they started with?

So we should be suspicious if someone is excited and has a positive job description? People move for many reasons, some work related and others not. Almost every working adult I know has been in several jobs, almost every physician I know has changed jobs.

Old timers will remember NapoleonDynamite, his actual last post was deleted by request if I recall, because people were so negative towards his positive review of rad onc that he left SDN for good.

Some people are happy in the field. Not every physician is getting a lousy deal. Some jobs in rad onc are great. SDN rad onc has done GREAT things in bringing the job market problems to light, but we have become an echo chamber in our own right.
 
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So we should be suspicious if someone is excited and has a positive job description?
Maybe. It depends on how you're using the term "job description".

Because if you mean "describing the job they have", no. @Lamount wrote earlier about being happy in their job a few years in. I am not suspicious of that.

But if you mean "job description" as in someone who hasn't worked a job summarizing the position as it could be written on the ASTRO job board, then yes, you should be suspicious.

This has nothing to do with RadOnc, it is common advice across industries. Have you ever read a negative "job description" on ASTRO? I haven't.

Why is this important? Because for 20 years, this distinction has not been made. The health of our job market has been based on literally two things: the Ben Smith paper, and the ARRO survey of job descriptions and contracts.

There's really only one time that follow-up data was obtained, by the pioneer Daniel Flynn in 1996:

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Of those working part-time, over half wound up doing so against their will. On the plus side, there was slight improvement in those working involuntarily part-time or unemployed.

I find the heavy and exclusive use of the ARRO survey by ASTRO dishonest and manipulative.

This is exactly what happened to me in my first job. I was sold magic beans. Prior to starting work, I had incredibly positive experiences and job description. Even for the first month or two, it seemed to be "as advertised". Then, the summer ended, people who had been on vacation or medical leave returned, and the "real" job was apparent by Thanksgiving.

I am genuinely curious about everyone's job coming out of residency. No one signs a contract based on a negative job description, whether you're a doctor or a cashier. But, as demonstrated by the ERAS bump, the short-term increase in job availability has led to changes in behavior for long-term career decisions.

Based on my personal experience and direct observation of my friends' experience, the binary "yes/no" of "have you signed a contract" only tells a small piece of the story - because we all signed contracts with positive descriptions.

I'm not talking about you, @Radonky, personally. This is a collective issue for all of us. The only power any employee ever really has is the ability to walk away.

Most of the time, RadOnc has very limited ability to walk away. But, for this one point in time, which conditions it took a once-in-a-generation pandemic to create, we're seeing high churn. When the dust has settled, probably sometime in 2023-2024, we'll have the most accurate "rankings" ever.

I am very aware of how negative this sounds. But as I said earlier in the thread: no one talks about this.

There's so much data and surveys and descriptions for medical schools and residency programs. But...what about the rest of the career? This is something we're committing to for life after a minimum of 13 years of training and education after high school. That's a high level of mystery for something with such an expensive cost of entry.
 
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So we should be suspicious if someone is excited and has a positive job description? People move for many reasons, some work related and others not. Almost every working adult I know has been in several jobs, almost every physician I know has changed jobs.

Old timers will remember NapoleonDynamite, his actual last post was deleted by request if I recall, because people were so negative towards his positive review of rad onc that he left SDN for good.

Some people are happy in the field. Not every physician is getting a lousy deal. Some jobs in rad onc are great. SDN rad onc has done GREAT things in bringing the job market problems to light, but we have become an echo chamber in our own right.
I think the goal is to get what you have and congrats by the way. My posts (and I assume others) may sound negative because not all jobs are good and if we continue the path we’re currently on, most if not all jobs will suck.

This isn’t a personal attack on you or anyone else who is satisfied with their job but a call for action to find ways to protect those who may not have the same opportunity to find a good job.
 
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I think the goal is to get what you have and congrats by the way. My posts (and I assume others) may sound negative because not all jobs are good and if we continue the path we’re currently on, most if not all jobs will suck.

This isn’t a personal attack on you or anyone else who is satisfied with their job but a call for action to find ways to protect those who may not have the same opportunity to find a good job.
Absolutely - congrats to you, personally.

My entire existence here is to "stop the cycle" from the things I experienced.

Which in this case, was excitement and relief about landing a job, which was spun as "look at the low unemployment rate".

Then, the folks signing my paychecks were literally counting on the fact that I wouldn't leave because they thought I couldn't.

Our main leverage is our ability to walk away. If leadership knows you leaving a job requires geographic relocation...well, RadOnc isn't used to docs playing hardball.
 
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My favorite messages to receive are when people leave an unhealthy workplace.

Man, it is the best feeling.
 
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As an SDN scholar i want to add, ND didnt leave only because SDN was negative and their message was seen as too positive. They left because they felt they were “doxxed” and in their words, this was “too much”. I had no idea who they were and fact that someome knew what state they worked at and posted it, did not make it easier to figure out who they were. People knew who they were because poster was quite open about who their mentor was during residency, what residency they went to and their career trajectory. This made it very easy to know who they were and everyone seemed to know. Fact is they had already self doxxed way back.
 
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I'm not talking about you, @Radonky, personally. This is a collective issue for all of us. The only power any employee ever really has is the ability to walk away.
When you quote my post and say you are, "intensely interested to have you tell us about your job in July 2024", it does sound like you are talking about me.

My problem here is the culture of SDN rad onc has deteriorated and I will push back against that. I do appreciate the caution, but it could have been worded better then. We should support our members, we are on the same team. Signing is stressful, the job search is stressful, and I know there are a lot of uncertainties, having a huge aspect of this colossal journey been done with was great news for me and my family. You (not you personally, SDN in general) shouldn't trample on that so easily.

1665328074838.png
 
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When you quote my post and say you are, "intensely interested to have you tell us about your job in July 2024", it does sound like you are talking about me.

My problem here is the culture of SDN rad onc has deteriorated and I will push back against that. I do appreciate the caution, but it could have been worded better then. We should support our members, we are on the same team. Signing is stressful, the job search is stressful, and I know there are a lot of uncertainties, having a huge aspect of this colossal journey been done with was great news for me and my family. You (not you personally, SDN in general) shouldn't trample on that so easily.

View attachment 360439
Congrats on being done. Give us an update about your job once you start after a few months in. People will love to continue to hear the job is still great.
 
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Congrats on being done. Give us an update about your job once you start after a few months in. People will love to continue to heae the job is still great.
Thank you
I will, and I will probably hate it in July of 2024.
 
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So we should be suspicious if someone is excited and has a positive job description? People move for many reasons, some work related and others not. Almost every working adult I know has been in several jobs, almost every physician I know has changed jobs.

Old timers will remember NapoleonDynamite, his actual last post was deleted by request if I recall, because people were so negative towards his positive review of rad onc that he left SDN for good.

Some people are happy in the field. Not every physician is getting a lousy deal. Some jobs in rad onc are great. SDN rad onc has done GREAT things in bringing the job market problems to light, but we have become an echo chamber in our own right.
Congratulations on many fronts. Great to have things locked up at this juncture. I was scrambling into March of my graduating year coming from a good program (likely a reflection of me, definitely a reflection of me being unwilling to move far).

I don't think we should discourage applicants that are committed at this point. If you are in the community like me, we just need to advocate for our positions and our role in the field (which is diminishing). Academics are of course going to have no interest in whether community docs have any leverage to negotiate favorable terms or to move where they want.

The decline of the competitiveness of radonc is fine and no one should begrudge it. It is now closer to where it should be than in 2012.

There are some very unrealistic expectations on this board about how a potential employer should interface with a physician applicant.

Employers do not in general disclose all financial details of employment prior to interview. There is some flexibility in community/PP jobs and almost none in academics. There is very little flexibility across the board for someone just out of training. An employer will only have flexibility with a candidate that they like a lot. They only like candidates a lot who do not perseverate on compensation early in the process.

Employers want team players. They do not want physicians who believe that they are remediating a toxic or poorly performing hospital/practice. It is amazing how many docs are willing to view themselves as saviors (usually surgeons but I digress). There are many poorly run hospitals/clinics, but never believe (or sell) yourself to be the sole solution. Think of yourself as someone who wants to join a team and that will in time being willing to put in the extra work to make that team better. Employers always want to set the schedule. Over time, a highly respected doc can manipulate their schedule for efficiency. A doc who wants to negotiate their work schedule early on is always a red flag for administration. (This is not specific to radonc).

Radoncs do have much less leverage than almost any of their peer specialists in the community. This is a reality and is driven simply by market forces.
 
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My analysis: RadOnc will probably be fine overall for a decade or two, hopefully more. What are the variables/options?

1. What we do: This is currently mostly external beam, a small portion of people doing brachy therapy, and a smaller portion of people doing unsealed sources or the heroic efforts figuring out how to treat noncancerous disease. Work on increasing this and proving the current amount of trainees makes sense because we are increasing what we do.
2. Can we do more?
2a. Can RadOncs become more Oncological focused and give immunotherapy safely and be more willing to monitor patients with the possibility of inpatient services in some circumstances? This would be very convenient for patients and for us to become a solid-tumor-noninvasive specialist. No extreme cytotoxic or invasive therapy, but willingness for us to utilize focused medicine with both radiation and immunotherapy. Even if it would mean we need to be more willing to manage symptoms and inpatient at times.
2b. Can we combine interventional radiology with radonc? breast/body/interventional radiologists and be a full fledged clinical and radiological intervention service based on site splits: Neuro, H&N, Breast, Thorax, Body, Pelvic, skin/msk
3. Spots, too many for what is currently going on. Cut spots.. cut the lowest 50 percent of spots from each state currently supplying spots. We would easily get down to a well sustainable workforce. It is much easier for us to figure out how to fix things when we have 300 patients per RadOnc than 140 patients per RadOnc.

If things keep going the way they are going, if short-sightedness prevails, we will continue to treat less and less patients. What quality of care should be afforded to our patients? Personally, I think it should be the highest quality of care. We are currently treating around 200 patients per RadOnc in the US, to further dilute that number is a disservice to our patients, ourselves, and our future trainees.
 
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My analysis: RadOnc will probably be fine overall for a decade or two, hopefully more. What are the variables/options?

1. What we do: This is currently mostly external beam, a small portion of people doing brachy therapy, and a smaller portion of people doing unsealed sources or the heroic efforts figuring out how to treat noncancerous disease. Work on increasing this and proving the current amount of trainees makes sense because we are increasing what we do.
2. Can we do more?
2a. Can RadOncs become more Oncological focused and give immunotherapy safely and be more willing to monitor patients with the possibility of inpatient services in some circumstances? This would be very convenient for patients and for us to become a solid-tumor-noninvasive specialist. No extreme cytotoxic or invasive therapy, but willingness for us to utilize focused medicine with both radiation and immunotherapy. Even if it would mean we need to be more willing to manage symptoms and inpatient at times.
2b. Can we combine interventional radiology with radonc? breast/body/interventional radiologists and be a full fledged clinical and radiological intervention service based on site splits: Neuro, H&N, Breast, Thorax, Body, Pelvic, skin/msk
3. Spots, too many for what is currently going on. Cut spots.. cut the lowest 50 percent of spots from each state currently supplying spots. We would easily get down to a well sustainable workforce. It is much easier for us to figure out how to fix things when we have 300 patients per RadOnc than 140 patients per RadOnc.

If things keep going the way they are going, if short-sightedness prevails, we will continue to treat less and less patients. What quality of care should be afforded to our patients? Personally, I think it should be the highest quality of care. We are currently treating around 200 patients per RadOnc in the US, to further dilute that number is a disservice to our patients, ourselves, and our future trainees.
Agree with everything but the fact that radonc will probably be fine for a decade or 2. Even without a reckoning of the oversupply, there are existential risks that just don’t exist for other specialties. How could a medical student even entertain these risks.

What if pluvicto can treat localized prostate effectively and adjuvant xrt is largely curtailed in early breast through better selection or biomarkers. Game over for jobs.
 
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Agree with everything but the fact that radonc will probably be fine for a decade or 2. Even without a reckoning of the oversupply, there are existential risks that just don’t exist for other specialties. I have a hard time conceiving how an intelligent medical student could even entertain these risks.

What if pluvicto can treat localized prostate effectively and adjuvant xrt is largely curtailed in early breast through better selection or biomarkers. Game over for jobs.
I agree with you that there will likely be things we could lose if we stay dormant in what we do, but I am saying that we should not be dormant. We should be more active in expanding what we do and we should pick a route.
 
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I agree with you that there will likely be things we could lose if we stay dormant in what we do, but I am saying that we should not be dormant. We should be more active in expanding what we do and we should pick a route.
Absolutely. Ideally it would be to add io and some types of chemo, (clinical onc) but if that is not politically feasible, some type of radiology fellowship. Radonc as a treatment is not going away, but jobs certainly may.
 
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Don't know a single person who is still at their first job. Have heard of one person i don't know well and that's it. Literally everyone i know has switched jobs at least once since training. Some real outliers like to do it q2-3 years 😂
I am in my first job, now 6+ years out. I am an owner in the technical (and obviously, professional), so will never practice in another setup b/c I love my job, compensation, location, etc. I know I am very blessed, and my situation is rare, but there are those of us out there.
 
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I am also in my first job 11+ years out. My practice has treated me very well and I work very hard to maximize its success.

To slightly come back to topic - with consolidation of practices and the fact that a single fraction of 8 Gy x 1 in big Rad Onc costs about the same as 70 Gy in 35 fractions IMRT in little Rad Onc - we have large financial buffers in place to keep this paper tiger alive for a few more years. People will be paid $400k flat with no increases or incentives.

However APM, patient bankruptcies 2/2 health care costs and a reckoning for Medicare (too expensive, not enough tax money to sustain it) will burst that bubble soon enough . . .
 
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I am also in my first job 11+ years out. My practice has treated me very well and I work very hard to maximize its success.

To slightly come back to topic - with consolidation of practices and the fact that a single fraction of 8 Gy x 1 in big Rad Onc costs about the same as 70 Gy in 35 fractions IMRT in little Rad Onc - we have large financial buffers in place to keep this paper tiger alive for a few more years. People will be paid $400k flat with no increases or incentives.

However APM, patient bankruptcies 2/2 health care costs and a reckoning for Medicare (too expensive, not enough tax money to sustain it) will burst that bubble soon enough . . .
I think we just wrapped up this cyclical discussion in another thread, and I don't think we're scheduled to do it again till Q1 2023, so I won't write a 5-page memo on it, but -

I think that there is no way for the people who disagree with you to change their minds unless we hand them "the books" for a private practice spanning back over the last 10 years.

If you do that, and factor in inflation...it's just math.

But anyone with that kind of data isn't gonna go "full Snowden" just to prove a point on the internet.
 
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I think that there is no way for the people who disagree with you to change their minds unless we hand them "the books" for a private practice spanning back over the last 10 years.

If you do that, and factor in inflation...it's just math.
No lies detected.
 
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There are some very unrealistic expectations on this board about how a potential employer should interface with a physician applicant.

Employers do not in general disclose all financial details of employment prior to interview. There is some flexibility in community/PP jobs and almost none in academics. There is very little flexibility across the board for someone just out of training. An employer will only have flexibility with a candidate that they like a lot. They only like candidates a lot who do not perseverate on compensation early in the process.

Employers want team players. They do not want physicians who believe that they are remediating a toxic or poorly performing hospital/practice. It is amazing how many docs are willing to view themselves as saviors (usually surgeons but I digress). There are many poorly run hospitals/clinics, but never believe (or sell) yourself to be the sole solution. Think of yourself as someone who wants to join a team and that will in time being willing to put in the extra work to make that team better. Employers always want to set the schedule. Over time, a highly respected doc can manipulate their schedule for efficiency. A doc who wants to negotiate their work schedule early on is always a red flag for administration. (This is not specific to radonc).

This post is obviously in response to my comments, so I will respond directly.

Yes, it appears that my standards are too high. The standard should be that we view ourselves as an equal part of the team of providers and a "team player" along with the dosimetrist, nurse, RTT, etc, regardless of how much we have invested in it and what the stakes are for us. I was misled when I chose to go to medical school and learn a profession over working my way up through a corporation for the first 20 years of my working life. Now I have come out starting my career at what otherwise would have been the halfway point in my working life and am again facing the exact scenario I was trying to avoid in the first place: Working for corporation as a standardized, certainly not special in any way at all, employee.

I was again misled when I chose to train in radiation oncology. I did not understand that being able to practice my trade I spent a decade learning would require "Yes, boss, no boss, right away boss" with multiple layers of administrative financial decision-making that I am not allowed to be part of between how my services and charged and collected before and how I am compensated for my work with a large part siphoned off by these administrators.

I should clarify that my comments about desiring to have control over my schedule, and other basic historical tenets of physician autonomy, when negotiating an agreement with a hospital are really focused in a situation where I would be the only radiation oncologist. Of course, if I were walking into an environment where there were multiple physicians I would expect that we would make decisions like this co-operatively, as the physicians, as true peers.

You are right. The hospitals and universities desire to employ us directly as providers, not independent physicians, that they completely control. Expectations otherwise will potentially result in an inability to earn a living as a radiation oncologist as this largely requires "employment" in this field. The degree to which they are willing to grant you autonomy is largely a degree of just how rural and difficult-to-recruit the position is. With the oversupply of radiation oncologists and the bloated locums market, we will still lose opportunities in god-forsaken places when we push for either professional and/or financial autonomy in negotiating with hospitals. This is not news to me as I've personally squirmed through every nuance of it. I pushed for autonomy at my first employer, therefore wasn't a "team player", threatened to quit as I knew they couldn't replace me, and they let me walk out the door with zero effort to retain me. They've had revolving locums for years afterwards and the clinic is a disaster. They don't care. It still makes money and locums are easy to get and even easier to control.

So, while I may have naively had unrealistic expectations of being an independent professional a decade ago, don't worry, I certainly don't now. It's not going to keep me from continuing to try, though.
 
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The latest ASTRO PAC email claims “the dog days of summer are behind us”. T’is might be literally true. The “dog days” campaign reports only 4% participation. This is a very sad dog campaign, maybe as sad as those Dr. Oz dogs. The narrative is the “dog days” are over for the field as well. Yet winter is a’ coming, folks! There ain’t no hiding from reality.
 
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