Estimated Costs of Veterinary School

[pinkpuppy9]

@catnips @AcreWoods It's not directly answering your question since it's not about SA, but I just finished working with 10 boarded veterinarians (zoo medicine and pathology). I only really got financial advice from one, and he is still paying off his DVM loans. He's got his full-time gig at the zoo, but he is consulting for Idexx nights/weekends at home to help him with his loans. I'm not sure when he graduated with his DVM but I'd say certainly within the last 15-20 years. I only guess that high because he's got a lot of accomplishments already: double boarded, senior veterinarian at a zoo, etc. I'm sure salaries for boarded veterinarians can vary drastically depending on the field, demand, and probably any other factor you can think of that would effect your GP salary.

I did talk a bit with another vet there who basically said the paycut from GP to intern/residency blows, lol. However, he was debt-free when he did it. So to say ti still sucked even though you were debt free...lol. Hopefully this helped a bit.

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[catnips]

@catnips @AcreWoods It's not directly answering your question since it's not about SA, but I just finished working with 10 boarded veterinarians (zoo medicine and pathology). I only really got financial advice from one, and he is still paying off his DVM loans. He's got his full-time gig at the zoo, but he is consulting for Idexx nights/weekends at home to help him with his loans. I'm not sure when he graduated with his DVM but I'd say certainly within the last 15-20 years. I only guess that high because he's got a lot of accomplishments already: double boarded, senior veterinarian at a zoo, etc. I'm sure salaries for boarded veterinarians can vary drastically depending on the field, demand, and probably any other factor you can think of that would effect your GP salary.

I did talk a bit with another vet there who basically said the paycut from GP to intern/residency blows, lol. However, he was debt-free when he did it. So to say ti still sucked even though you were debt free...lol. Hopefully this helped a bit.

Thanks pinkpuppy9! Oh yeah I heard you earn like half as much in internship/residency... But to be honest, if not in shelter med, I don't really see myself a GP but of course, you never know. I shadowed a specialty clinic and I just thought it was more interesting to me. The cases were super interesting and it was in a very affluent part of NYC so the veterinarians were really well off compared to GPs that I shadowed... Then again I'm sure GPs in the same area fare pretty well too, just haven't shadowed one. Thanks for your insight! At this point, with no acceptance from my IS, I think I'm screwed financially either way, as a GP or as a specialist, so... Lol.

 

[dyachei]

Thanks pinkpuppy9! Oh yeah I heard you earn like half as much in internship/residency... But to be honest, if not in shelter med, I don't really see myself a GP but of course, you never know. I shadowed a specialty clinic and I just thought it was more interesting to me. The cases were super interesting and it was in a very affluent part of NYC so the veterinarians were really well off compared to GPs that I shadowed... Then again I'm sure GPs in the same area fare pretty well too, just haven't shadowed one. Thanks for your insight! At this point, with no acceptance from my IS, I think I'm screwed financially either way, as a GP or as a specialist, so... Lol.

half is being generous. internships and residencies typically range in the 20-30k range. Just so that you are correctly informed.

 

[catnips]

half is being generous. internships and residencies typically range in the 20-30k range. Just so that you are correctly informed.

Yeah I assumed an intern would earn around 30k, and a starting veterinarian in their first year around 60k.
But wow, 20k is really low.

 

[DVMDream]

Yeah I assumed an intern would earn around 30k, and a starting veterinarian in their first year around 60k.
But wow, 20k is really low.

Most of the ones I looked at real quick while VIRMP was up were about 25-27K... give or take a bit. I found 1 internship that was over 50K, I think 58K, if I remember correctly.

 

[dyachei]

Most of the ones I looked at real quick while VIRMP was up were about 25-27K... give or take a bit. I found 1 internship that was over 50K, I think 58K, if I remember correctly.

Cost of living probably influenced that one. My point was that they are often under 30k.

 

[Minnerbelle]

Most of the ones I looked at real quick while VIRMP was up were about 25-27K... give or take a bit. I found 1 internship that was over 50K, I think 58K, if I remember correctly.

Omg I wish I could remember which one it was. There is one private practice internship with a 60k salary that was being discussed on VIN recently. I don't think it had to do with COL moreso than the hospital taking the position to compensate the interns almost as if they were associate doctors. It's killing me that I don't remember the hospital. But whatever, that is very very rare.

 

[DVMDream]

Omg I wish I could remember which one it was. There is one private practice internship with a 60k salary that was being discussed on VIN recently. I don't think it had to do with COL moreso than the hospital taking the position to compensate the interns almost as if they were associate doctors. It's killing me that I don't remember the hospital. But whatever, that is very very rare.

The one that I found was at an emergency clinic in Arizona. I am not sure if it was the same one that you are talking about or not. It is very very rare though.

 

[Disclosure]

I've always been curious regarding the economic side of being a vet and had a question.

I understand in the US loans and income/debt ratio is quite a concern but how would the view of quality of life of a veterinarian differ if they had say around 60k in loans (interest free) instead. Would the life of a veterinarian on the economical side be a bit better because of a lower loan or would it still be tough because of semi low graduate salary?

Because of the loan being interest free would that mean trying to specialize would be easier in the sense that you don't have to worry about interest making your loan much larger during the really low salary period (1-2 year internship + 3 year residency)?

So I guess basically im wondering if it's better for someone with 60k in loans interest free compared to someone that may have around 100+k loans with interest? Of course it's better but how much of a difference would it be?

sorry if the questions seem a bit weirdly worded, it's 4am at night and I'm just speculating things on top of my head hehe.

 

[battie]

I've always been curious regarding the economic side of being a vet and had a question.

I understand in the US loans and income/debt ratio is quite a concern but how would the view of quality of life of a veterinarian differ if they had say around 60k in loans (interest free) instead. Would the life of a veterinarian on the economical side be a bit better because of a lower loan or would it still be tough because of semi low graduate salary?

Because of the loan being interest free would that mean trying to specialize would be easier in the sense that you don't have to worry about interest making your loan much larger during the really low salary period (1-2 year internship + 3 year residency)?

So I guess basically im wondering if it's better for someone with 60k in loans interest free compared to someone that may have around 100+k loans with interest? Of course it's better but how much of a difference would it be?

sorry if the questions seem a bit weirdly worded, it's 4am at night and I'm just speculating things on top of my head hehe.

Well, you answered your first question. Having 60K in loans with no interest is significantly better than 100K in loans with interest. That's almost a non-question and an obvious statement. Moreover, the average is more like 150K nowadays. Is the quality of life better? Again, yes. There is significantly less stress. Where I am at, the average starting salary is 55K, so 60K without interest would be fantastic when the alternative is 100K with interest. If it could be a thing, I would devote my entire paycheck purely to pay for school loans and let my boyfriend take care everything else with his paycheck. That would mean I could pay off my potential loans in, what? 1.5 years? Instead of 25? Hell yeah.

But that isn't a thing. Instead I will have anywhere from 60-120K in loans with interest, depending on if I get into my IS.

 

[cowgirla]

If my loans were 60k with no interest I could have them paid off in 5 years or less without stretching my budget. My salary is on the low side of the national average. It's the interest that's killer. When you have loans that accumulate a couple hundred++ in interest alone each month it's like an avalanche.

 

[Gwenevre]

If my loans were 60k with no interest I could have them paid off in 5 years or less without stretching my budget. My salary is on the low side of the national average. It's the interest that's killer. When you have loans that accumulate a couple hundred++ in interest alone each month it's like an avalanche.

This is what I'm terrified of, and it's a big contributing factor on if I'm going to take an acceptance at the only school I interviewed at. I want to start vet school, but not if the post graduate debt is going to have me living out of a box.

 

[peanutbutterjelly]

Well, you answered your first question. Having 60K in loans with no interest is significantly better than 100K in loans with interest. That's almost a non-question and an obvious statement. Moreover, the average is more like 150K nowadays. Is the quality of life better? Again, yes. There is significantly less stress. Where I am at, the average starting salary is 55K, so 60K without interest would be fantastic when the alternative is 100K with interest. If it could be a thing, I would devote my entire paycheck purely to pay for school loans and let my boyfriend take care everything else with his paycheck. That would mean I could pay off my potential loans in, what? 1.5 years? Instead of 25? Hell yeah.

But that isn't a thing. Instead I will have anywhere from 60-120K in loans with interest, depending on if I get into my IS.

LOL I told my bf that I would like him to do that so I could devote my income to loans. He starting choking.

 

[Gemgrrrl]

Would the life of a veterinarian on the economical side be a bit better because of a lower loan or would it still be tough because of semi low graduate salary? ... So I guess basically im wondering if it's better for someone with 60k in loans interest free compared to someone that may have around 100+k loans with interest? Of course it's better but how much of a difference would it be?

The two are linked together. Low starting salaries mean there is less money to live on after loan repayment. If you don't have interest accruing on the loans, there is less to pay back; you either pay a higher amount over a shorter period of time, or you pay a lower amount over the same period of time. Either way, you end up ahead in the long run.

The average debt load for DVM's post-graduation is ~ $150K, and you're looking at around 6.8% interest. If you were to repay that over 10 years, your loan payments would be ~ $1700 a month, and you would pay a total of ~ $207K total in principle and interest. So, if there was no interest, you would save a total of $57,000 over that 10 years of repayment, or $450 a month. Or you could pay the same amount per month and pay the loan off in just over 7 years instead of 10. So you're better off no matter which way you slice it.

For reference, since we're talking about quality of living, that $1700 a month is approximately what you would pay monthly for a $275K house. That $450 a month you would save is enough to pay for a new car. Or you could use that money to raise children, buy your own practice, etc. So, yes, your quality of living would be greatly improved.

Because of the loan being interest free would that mean trying to specialize would be easier in the sense that you don't have to worry about interest making your loan much larger during the really low salary period (1-2 year internship + 3 year residency)?

I definitely think that there are some who choose not to specialize because of the debt load. The loan continues to accrue interest while you're in residency. Also, most student loans undergo capitalization after a period of deferment or forbearance. Essentially, this means that the accrued interest is added to the principle, so you're paying interest on top of interest. It can really snowball. So, yes, I think not having to pay interest would make it easier for some to specialize.
___________________________________________

If you want to get an idea of what your financial picture will be after vet school, there are two very good financial simulators you can use. You can find them here: http://www.finsim.umn.edu/# and here: http://www.vinfoundation.org/AppUti...357&objecttypeid=10&redirectFromMiscDefault=1.

Both simulators let you play with a number of different factors to see what you will actually be able to afford after vet school, depending on different loan repayment terms. Can you afford to save for retirement, buy that house, have kids, go on vacation, etc? It's worth having a look.

The other thing to consider is that you you don't have to spend $150K to become a vet. Remember, that's an average. There are a lot of ways you can lower your total costs, and they all add up. But, even if you do end up having to borrow that much, it is possible to pay it back in a reasonable amount of time. You just have to be smart with your money.

Don't wait until after your undergrad to make a financial plan!

 

[Disclosure]

The two are linked together. Low starting salaries mean there is less money to live on after loan repayment. If you don't have interest accruing on the loans, there is less to pay back; you either pay a higher amount over a shorter period of time, or you pay a lower amount over the same period of time. Either way, you end up ahead in the long run.

The average debt load for DVM's post-graduation is ~ $150K, and you're looking at around 6.8% interest. If you were to repay that over 10 years, your loan payments would be ~ $1700 a month, and you would pay a total of ~ $207K total in principle and interest. So, if there was no interest, you would save a total of $57,000 over that 10 years of repayment, or $450 a month. Or you could pay the same amount per month and pay the loan off in just over 7 years instead of 10. So you're better off no matter which way you slice it.

For reference, since we're talking about quality of living, that $1700 a month is approximately what you would pay monthly for a $275K house. That $450 a month you would save is enough to pay for a new car. Or you could use that money to raise children, buy your own practice, etc. So, yes, your quality of living would be greatly improved.



I definitely think that there are some who choose not to specialize because of the debt load. The loan continues to accrue interest while you're in residency. Also, most student loans undergo capitalization after a period of deferment or forbearance. Essentially, this means that the accrued interest is added to the principle, so you're paying interest on top of interest. It can really snowball. So, yes, I think not having to pay interest would make it easier for some to specialize.
___________________________________________

If you want to get an idea of what your financial picture will be after vet school, there are two very good financial simulators you can use. You can find them here: http://www.finsim.umn.edu/# and here: http://www.vinfoundation.org/AppUti...357&objecttypeid=10&redirectFromMiscDefault=1.

Both simulators let you play with a number of different factors to see what you will actually be able to afford after vet school, depending on different loan repayment terms. Can you afford to save for retirement, buy that house, have kids, go on vacation, etc? It's worth having a look.

The other thing to consider is that you you don't have to spend $150K to become a vet. Remember, that's an average. There are a lot of ways you can lower your total costs, and they all add up. But, even if you do end up having to borrow that much, it is possible to pay it back in a reasonable amount of time. You just have to be smart with your money.

Don't wait until after your undergrad to make a financial plan!

Thank you for the reply, very informative
The reason I was wondering is because the 60k interest free is approximately the debt I will have after doing my veterinary degree here in Australia. Americans really have it tough with tuition fees it seems. We do have a lower average starting graduate salary than in the US though I guess.

Now I understand more the unfairness in opening up so many international avma accredited schools which leads to less jobs for US citizens in their own hometowns as well as them having such high loans to pay off.

 

[Gemgrrrl]

Thank you for the reply, very informative
The reason I was wondering is because the 60k interest free is approximately the debt I will have after doing my veterinary degree here in Australia. Americans really have it tough with tuition fees it seems. We do have a lower average starting graduate salary than in the US though I guess.

Now I understand more the unfairness in opening up so many international avma accredited schools which leads to less jobs for US citizens in their own hometowns as well as them having such high loans to pay off.

That does sound like a much better deal. Is that $60K for your undergrad and DVM, or just the DVM? What is the average starting salary after graduation in Australia?

 

[KCgophervet]

I think in Australia its all one program (from what I recall it was a 5 year program straight from HS - at Murdoch where I researched into it in 2008)

 

[Coquette22]

That does sound like a much better deal. Is that $60K for your undergrad and DVM, or just the DVM? What is the average starting salary after graduation in Australia?

@Disclosure is welcome to correct me (since I'm just about as far as you can get from Australia), but this 2014 article gives the averge debt as $86,000AUD ($67,100USD) and the average starting salary as $47,000AUD ($36,700USD).

 

[WildZoo]

That does sound like a much better deal. Is that $60K for your undergrad and DVM, or just the DVM? What is the average starting salary after graduation in Australia?

The interest free part alone makes it a pretty good deal. Looks like their average debt to salary ratio would be about 2:1, whereas in the US it's closer to 3:1

 

[Disclosure]

Yeah in Australia, it's 6 years and you can get in straight from High School. The course in Adelaide (southern Australia) is basically a 3 year bachelor called Bachelor of Veterinary bioscience and then after doing 12 weeks of work experience and having satisfactory grade (all passes) you get guaranteed entry into the 3 year Doctor of veterinary medicine program. We dont take in people from other places for the 3 year DVM and we have classes of approx 40 each year.

@Disclosure is welcome to correct me (since I'm just about as far as you can get from Australia), but this 2014 article gives the averge debt as $86,000AUD ($67,100USD) and the average starting salary as $47,000AUD ($36,700USD).

I know for my degree it's exactly 60k$AUS in tuition fees. Which would be around $47000US. Mind you I'm sure this may slightly vary to other degrees like Murdoch etc so I guess the average could rise a little bit. The average starting salary sounds about right too, of course depends on location etc but around 45-65k is usually the norm.

Pretty ridiculous how much that rises for international students though, goes from 10k$ AUD annually to 50k$ for international students (without having access to loans.)

 

[Disclosure]

The interest free part alone makes it a pretty good deal. Looks like their average debt to salary ratio would be about 2:1, whereas in the US it's closer to 3:1

Yeah seems like the interest part is really what blows. That's basically what my original question was meant to be. If it's the actual debt to salary ratio which is the concern or if it's just the salary itself. I'm sure there are heaps of threads which already tell me this but is starting average salary in america up to 60-80k or am I wrong?

 

[Gwenevre]

Yeah seems like the interest part is really what blows. That's basically what my original question was meant to be. If it's the actual debt to salary ratio which is the concern or if it's just the salary itself. I'm sure there are heaps of threads which already tell me this but is starting average salary in america up to 60-80k or am I wrong?

Depends on the area. I think it's between 40-70k, high variability for species and area. If you want to do a specialty it's 20-30k for internships/residency.

 

[WildZoo]

Yeah seems like the interest part is really what blows. That's basically what my original question was meant to be. If it's the actual debt to salary ratio which is the concern or if it's just the salary itself. I'm sure there are heaps of threads which already tell me this but is starting average salary in america up to 60-80k or am I wrong?

I've heard 60, but I'm not sure

 

[Swongy]

Has anyone ever considered joining the army for the HPSP scholarship?

I wonder if anyone has any thoughts? I've been looking into it as an alternative. I will look into it a little more but just wanna see if anyone has some reasons of their own that I haven't considered!

 

[battie]

Has anyone ever considered joining the army for the HPSP scholarship?

I wonder if anyone has any thoughts? I've been looking into it as an alternative. I will look into it a little more but just wanna see if anyone has some reasons of their own that I haven't considered!

This is probably a captain obvious statement, but remember the health considerations. I talked to a recruiter who presented at my undergrad and he asked about health issues. I told him I have asthma (not a big deal) and that I have a chronic fainting condition that prevents me from standing still for longer than 20 minutes. He told me that I could try but that I would probably be wasting my time. I didn't go any further than that. So if you have some sort of health issue, check to see if it is worth the time and effort to even apply before you do. lol.

 

[Swongy]

This is probably a captain obvious statement, but remember the health considerations. I talked to a recruiter who presented at my undergrad and he asked about health issues. I told him I have asthma (not a big deal) and that I have a chronic fainting condition that prevents me from standing still for longer than 20 minutes. He told me that I could try but that I would probably be wasting my time. I didn't go any further than that. So if you have some sort of health issue, check to see if it is worth the time and effort to even apply before you do. lol.

Thanks! I have asthma too but it's nothing really (that's what all asthmatics say, right? lol) but I've managed to control it and haven't had an episode for nearly ten years at least? I think this is really the only thing making me hesitant.

I'm looking for different scholarships to help ease my debt load, this being the best option with a free ride!

How do you guys plan to pay off vet school besides typical loans?

 

[KCgophervet]

Thanks! I have asthma too but it's nothing really (that's what all asthmatics say, right? lol) but I've managed to control it and haven't had an episode for nearly ten years at least? I think this is really the only thing making me hesitant.

I'm looking for different scholarships to help ease my debt load, this being the best option with a free ride!

How do you guys plan to pay off vet school besides typical loans?

Just tossing this out there, I had mild asthma as a kid, do not currently have any inhaler or anything for it (because it's pretty much a non-issue for me) but that was enough to not even let me get their physical exam... so a reject before even glancing at the rest of my application. It also took them over a year to decide they were going to do that, so I spent a year filling out a 60+ page application with various essays just to later be told I was rejected due to fessing up to my childhood "asthma."

I am still slightly bitter about this...

Don't waste your time if you have or have ever had asthma.

 

[battie]

Just tossing this out there, I had mild asthma as a kid, do not currently have any inhaler or anything for it (because it's pretty much a non-issue for me) but that was enough to not even let me get their physical exam... so a reject before even glancing at the rest of my application. It also took them over a year to decide they were going to do that, so I spent a year filling out a 60+ page application with various essays just to later be told I was rejected due to fessing up to my childhood "asthma."

I am still slightly bitter about this...

Don't waste your time if you have or have ever had asthma.

Man, double whammy for me then. I would say my asthma is only marginally controlled. I am, ironically, allergic to nearly all fur types and so if I don't hang out around a large amount of dogs or cats, I have attacks when I start working with them again until I adjust. We had to bathe probably 25 dogs at the boarding place I am at and I sucked on my inhaler a few times afterwards. Give me a month and it will be a non-issue.

As far as paying for school, my great-grandfather left me some money, but there isn't a whole lot there. So I will use that and then loans.

 

[Swongy]

Just tossing this out there, I had mild asthma as a kid, do not currently have any inhaler or anything for it (because it's pretty much a non-issue for me) but that was enough to not even let me get their physical exam... so a reject before even glancing at the rest of my application. It also took them over a year to decide they were going to do that, so I spent a year filling out a 60+ page application with various essays just to later be told I was rejected due to fessing up to my childhood "asthma."

I am still slightly bitter about this...

Don't waste your time if you have or have ever had asthma.

Wow, that does suck. Thanks for the heads up. Looks like my scholarship search continues :/

 

[RoriGirl23]

Just tossing this out there, I had mild asthma as a kid, do not currently have any inhaler or anything for it (because it's pretty much a non-issue for me) but that was enough to not even let me get their physical exam... so a reject before even glancing at the rest of my application. It also took them over a year to decide they were going to do that, so I spent a year filling out a 60+ page application with various essays just to later be told I was rejected due to fessing up to my childhood "asthma."

I am still slightly bitter about this...

Don't waste your time if you have or have ever had asthma.

WOW thank you for posting this. I was looking at the army options and I have asthma as well. That is insane that they made you wait that long and how something that is manageable like asthma could mean you don't get accepted.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

For the army thing, do they still count you out for things like anxiety and depression? I mean really, if they are counting you out for childhood asthma, what isn't going to be a red flag for them? Childhood asthma is extremely common. I think most of the girls on all of my sports teams has inhalers just in case.

When I looked into it several years back, I was told that recruiters even go to the lengths of looking at your fingernails when you don't realize it. If they look like you bite them...you can be crossed off or questioned. I'm not saying that's true...but worth asking about I suppose.

 

[DVMDream]

For the army thing, do they still count you out for things like anxiety and depression? I mean really, if they are counting you out for childhood asthma, what isn't going to be a red flag for them? Childhood asthma is extremely common. I think most of the girls on all of my sports teams has inhalers just in case.

When I looked into it several years back, I was told that recruiters even go to the lengths of looking at your fingernails when you don't realize it. If they look like you bite them...you can be crossed off or questioned. I'm not saying that's true...but worth asking about I suppose.

Yes they will boot you for depression most likely, if you are already in and get diagnosed with it, they'll honorably discharge you.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

Yes they will boot you for depression most likely, if you are already in and get diagnosed with it, they'll honorably discharge you.

Yeah, I figured that was still in place. At least they're making progress in the LGBT department. Sorta. And minus the T.

 

[DVMDream]

Yeah, I figured that was still in place. At least they're making progress in the LGBT department. Sorta. And minus the T.

I don't think depressed people belong in the military. I might get some backlash for saying that but military life is a big stress that can easily exacerbate that depression.

 

[Skimble]

I don't think depressed people belong in the military. I might get some backlash for saying that but military life is a big stress that can easily exacerbate that depression.

I agree with this. Just look at how many military people have PTSD. That on top of depression is a lot for any person to reasonably handle.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

I don't think depressed people belong in the military. I might get some backlash for saying that but military life is a big stress that can easily exacerbate that depression.

I think it really depends. Severe depression should be something that a person should know would compromise their mental ability to even complete initial training. My close friend is a marine, and even the first 3 months at camp with zero contact to family and friends was difficult enough without having any existing mental health issues.

However, the stigma behind mental health issues is usually the bigger reason behind not allowing even anxiety into the military. My brother-in-law, who was in the navy, said everyone stuck on the ship would always get cabin fever...those who seemd particularly uncomfortable were always quietly watched. People feared they'd "crack and shoot up the entire ship." Violence is usually blamed on a person's depression, rather than any other factors that could have possibly contributed. I suppose you could argue either way for that, but there's more to murdering than suffering from depression if you ask me. Correlation does not = causation.

I mean really...the military just recently recognized that homosexuals are fit for serving. I don't think the mental health policy will be changing, though.

My personal opinion on PTSD is that it's of course, awful. Those in combat are literally trained to no longer see 'enemies,' even children, as human beings. the post combat 'cooldown' period isn't enough for some to reset to normal life, and the military doesn't support them too much after that...

 

[DVMDream]

I think it really depends. Severe depression should be something that a person should know would compromise their mental ability to even complete initial training. My close friend is a marine, and even the first 3 months at camp with zero contact to family and friends was difficult enough without having any existing mental health issues.

However, the stigma behind mental health issues is usually the bigger reason behind not allowing even anxiety into the military. My brother-in-law, who was in the navy, said everyone stuck on the ship would always get cabin fever...those who seemd particularly uncomfortable were always quietly watched. People feared they'd "crack and shoot up the entire ship." Violence is usually blamed on a person's depression, rather than any other factors that could have possibly contributed. I suppose you could argue either way for that, but there's more to murdering than suffering from depression if you ask me. Correlation does not = causation.

I mean really...the military just recently recognized that homosexuals are fit for serving. I don't think the mental health policy will be changing, though.

My personal opinion on PTSD is that it's of course, awful. Those in combat are literally trained to no longer see 'enemies,' even children, as human beings. the post combat 'cooldown' period isn't enough for some to reset to normal life, and the military doesn't support them too much after that...

Yeah everything you just said backed up my position.

Other factors to violence can contribute but most mentally healthy people aren't going to become extremely violent in the way you described. And violence never even crossed my mind. My sister was in the navy and she found one of her good friends in the bathroom bleeding out due to cutting her wrists. Luckily, she found her friend on time. Violence wasn't even a thought that crossed my mind, though something to keep in mind too. I'm more saying it for that individual person's well being. My sister has told me enough stories that I rather firmly believe anyone with a prior diagnosis of depression or anxiety should not be in the military, for their own safety.

 

[DVMDream]

Just to clarify, I'm not saying the girl being in the military caused her to attempt suicide. That could have happened regardless. However, the military is definitely not the job for those with depression given what is required of people while serving.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

Yeah everything you just said backed up my position.

Other factors to violence can contribute but most mentally healthy people aren't going to become extremely violent. And violence never even crossed my mind. My sister was in the navy and she found one of her good friends in the bathroom bleeding out due to cutting her wrists. Luckily, she found her friend on time. Violence wasn't even a thought that crossed my mind, though something to keep in mind too. I'm more saying it for that individual person's well being. My sister has told me enough stories that I rather firmly believe anyone with a prior diagnosis of depression or anxiety should not be in the military, for their own safety.

Don't worry, I wasn't necesarily disagreeing with you. However, I'm sure you know that there is more than combat positions in the military. To disqualify an asthmatic or someone with just general anxiety from an technology position? To disqualify some positions from women because we still "can't handle it?" I'm just saying that a lot of the reasoning behind who/what is disqualified is not always sound. Sometimes it is. It depends.

 

[DVMDream]

Don't worry, I wasn't necesarily disagreeing with you. However, I'm sure you know that there is more than combat positions in the military. To disqualify an asthmatic or someone with just general anxiety from an technology position? To disqualify some positions from women because we still "can't handle it?" I'm just saying that a lot of the reasoning behind who/what is disqualified is not always sound. Sometimes it is. It depends.

I know there are multiple positions. However, being in technology isn't going to keep you from seeing certain things, it doesn't keep you out of boot camp and you'll still have friends dying. My sister was in one of those positions, you still see plenty that you'll never unsee.

And I know you weren't really disagreeing completely. It is a tough position to say no to someone for something out of their control, but in certain situations it is necessary and I believe this is one of those situations. You can't have one of your tech crew having an anxiety attack on board the ship while entering foreign waters, they need to be vigilant at all times.

 

[WildZoo]

Don't worry, I wasn't necesarily disagreeing with you. However, I'm sure you know that there is more than combat positions in the military. To disqualify an asthmatic or someone with just general anxiety from an technology position? To disqualify some positions from women because we still "can't handle it?" I'm just saying that a lot of the reasoning behind who/what is disqualified is not always sound. Sometimes it is. It depends.

The other thing you have to consider beyond whether or not they think someone can handle the work is that when they take you on they are also potentially taking on responsibility for your health care for the rest of your life. It behooves them to avoid any preexisting health conditions that they might end up having to shoulder the cost of treating later. But there is a chance to get a waiver if you can prove the condition no longer affects you.

 

[Skimble]

I know there are multiple positions. However, being in technology isn't going to keep you from seeing certain things, it doesn't keep you out of boot camp and you'll still have friends dying. My sister was in one of those positions, you still see plenty that you'll never unsee.

And I know you weren't really disagreeing completely. It is a tough position to say no to someone for something out of their control, but in certain situations it is necessary and I believe this is one of those situations. You can't have one of your tech crew having an anxiety attack on board the ship while entering foreign waters, they need to be vigilant at all times.

Again, I totally agree. My dad grew up very poor and joined the military to pay for college. Then the Vietnam war happened and he was required to do a tour. He was very smart though and the military saw a bright future for him so they didn't want him on the lines in combat. So they gave him a "cushy" job of driving generals around. To this day he won't talk about what he saw while he was there and he will cry if you ask him about it.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

The other thing you have to consider beyond whether or not they think someone can handle the work is that when they take you on they are also potentially taking on responsibility for your health care for the rest of your life. It behooves them to avoid any preexisting health conditions that they might end up having to shoulder the cost of treating later. But there is a chance to get a waiver if you can prove the condition no longer affects you.

Yeah I get all of that. I'm just saying that in general, some of the disqualifying reasons are based on old fashioned ideals and social stigma/fears rather than factual reasoning. The anxiety/depression is partly because of concerns the person will have difficulty emotionally. That then stems off into fearing that person will fire upon their own camp. And that's how society seems to respond to mental health issues as well...with fear. I'm not sure how different barring depressiom is from homosexuality. Both are/were believed to lead to an inferior soldier who would compromise the safety/training of all involved. I can't tell you whether or not depressed soldiers are more prone to violence than depressed civilians.

I know they are two different things, but for real...the military is just now realizing that a gay soldier won't attempt to have sexual relations with his peers and compromise focus. We're taking baby steps in realizing that being a woman is not a disadvantage. We're talking about the military barring more than just those who have/had anxiety or depression. You can't use the future healthcare costs as a reason for all of their decisions, but I know it is a semi-legitimate reason for barring mental health disorders.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

And with healthcare being brought, it's not like they do that much for those that went in perfectly healthy and came out the opposite...

 

[WildZoo]

Yeah I get all of that. I'm just saying that in general, some of the disqualifying reasons are based on old fashioned ideals and social stigma/fears rather than factual reasoning. The anxiety/depression is partly because of concerns the person will have difficulty emotionally. That then stems off into fearing that person will fire upon their own camp. And that's how society seems to respond to mental health issues as well...with fear. I'm not sure how different barring depressiom is from homosexuality. Both are/were believed to lead to an inferior soldier who would compromise the safety/training of all involved. I can't tell you whether or not depressed soldiers are more prone to violence than depressed civilians.

I know they are two different things, but for real...the military is just now realizing that a gay soldier won't attempt to have sexual relations with his peers and compromise focus. We're taking baby steps in realizing that being a woman is not a disadvantage. We're talking about the military barring more than just those who have/had anxiety or depression. You can't use the future healthcare costs as a reason for all of their decisions, but I know it is a semi-legitimate reason for barring mental health disorders.

I was more referring to the original topic of physical health condition than anything else

 

[WildZoo]

And with healthcare being brought, it's not like they do that much for those that went in perfectly healthy and came out the opposite...

I honestly don't know enough about healthcare for older veterans, beyond that there have been issues with VA hospitals and such. What I do know is my own personal experience. My dad was very well taken care of when he was diagnosed with brain cancer while in the Navy, and I have been very well taken care of since he died, so n=1 but I wouldn't be inclined to make a sweeping generalization like that.

 

[DVMDream]

Yeah I get all of that. I'm just saying that in general, some of the disqualifying reasons are based on old fashioned ideals and social stigma/fears rather than factual reasoning. The anxiety/depression is partly because of concerns the person will have difficulty emotionally. That then stems off into fearing that person will fire upon their own camp. And that's how society seems to respond to mental health issues as well...with fear. I'm not sure how different barring depressiom is from homosexuality. Both are/were believed to lead to an inferior soldier who would compromise the safety/training of all involved. I can't tell you whether or not depressed soldiers are more prone to violence than depressed civilians.

I know they are two different things, but for real...the military is just now realizing that a gay soldier won't attempt to have sexual relations with his peers and compromise focus. We're taking baby steps in realizing that being a woman is not a disadvantage. We're talking about the military barring more than just those who have/had anxiety or depression. You can't use the future healthcare costs as a reason for all of their decisions, but I know it is a semi-legitimate reason for barring mental health disorders.

Anxiety and depression aren't anywhere near similar in comparison to homosexulaity or being a woman, that is nonsensical.

Anxiety/depression are serious medical issues. They should not be taken lightly. I don't agree that the concern is a person with these issues will begin killing off people within his/her own camp. The issue comes from one of concern for the individual. There is a reason military paperwork is 70 something odd annoying pages long. There is a reason they ask so much about your health and your physical/mental capability. Because you need to be physically strong and mentally "sound" (for lack of a better word) to do military work. It isn't some mean, evil discrimination tactic of the military against people. It isn't malicious and it in no way compares to homosexuality or simply being a woman. Those aren't medical problems (I get people used to think homosexuality was), but depression/anxiety will always be medical problems that need to be taken care of by a physician and controlled.

I get that it seems evil and judgmental to dismiss someone due to those issues, but it isn't. It is no different than them telling someone with one arm no, or someone with a heart condition no, or someone with bipolar disorder no. There are just certain medical problems that make it so that you can not adequately do the job that the military requires. Is it fair? No, but their job isn't to be fair to everyone, their job is to employ people that are physically and mentally capable of protecting our country and doing the work required of them.

 

[KCgophervet]

Just to throw this out there, having blanket policies like no admittance/honorable discharge if history of depression could feasibly contribute to people refusing to seek help for their conditions. While I understand the logic behind not putting emotionally/mentally unstable people in the active military, I do wonder about this potential side effect.

 

[DVMDream]

Just to throw this out there, having blanket policies like no admittance/honorable discharge if history of depression could feasibly contribute to people refusing to seek help for their conditions. While I understand the logic behind not putting emotionally/mentally unstable people in the active military, I do wonder about this potential side effect.

I agree that is possible. Definitely, but I don't see much way to get around that "blanket" policy. It is very hard to know if the military life will be enough to put someone who has controlled depression back over the edge. It may with some and might not with others, so, erring on the side of caution by making that "blanket" policy is probably the best way to do it. If you cherry pick too much as to who can join and who can't and play around with depression, you could do much more harm than good.

Also, the military is very aware the depression exits and they hold courses and classes to the soldiers about it and how to identify it in others as well as methods for coping with life in the military. So while it seems all "bad" that they have this blanket policy on it, there is more to it that goes on internally to identify issues and try to make things better.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

I honestly don't know enough about healthcare for older veterans, beyond that there have been issues with VA hospitals and such. What I do know is my own personal experience. My dad was very well taken care of when he was diagnosed with brain cancer while in the Navy, and I have been very well taken care of since he died, so n=1 but I wouldn't be inclined to make a sweeping generalization like that.

I do have a a bit of experience with older veterans, and it seema like they are sometimes just swept under the rug. It's really quite sad...good to hear that you have had a positive experience though.

Anxiety and depression aren't anywhere near similar in comparison to homosexulaity or being a woman, that is nonsensical.

Anxiety/depression are serious medical issues. They should not be taken lightly. I don't agree that the concern is a person with these issues will begin killing off people within his/her own camp. The issue comes from one of concern for the individual. There is a reason military paperwork is 70 something odd annoying pages long. There is a reason they ask so much about your health and your physical/mental capability. Because you need to be physically strong and mentally "sound" (for lack of a better word) to do military work. It isn't some mean, evil discrimination tactic of the military against people. It isn't malicious and it in no way compares to homosexuality or simply being a woman. Those aren't medical problems (I get people used to think homosexuality was), but depression/anxiety will always be medical problems that need to be taken care of by a physician and controlled.

I get that it seems evil and judgmental to dismiss someone due to those issues, but it isn't. It is no different than them telling someone with one arm no, or someone with a heart condition no, or someone with bipolar disorder no. There are just certain medical problems that make it so that you can not adequately do the job that the military requires. Is it fair? No, but their job isn't to be fair to everyone, their job is to employ people that are physically and mentally capable of protecting our country and doing the work required of them.

I'm not trying to make it seem like homosexuality and depression are of the same nature, but they are both frowned upon, for lack of better phrasing. And to be honest, being a woman is often considered a medical condition, ignoring the insurance issues civilian women face. the military health organization/committee (?) Has "tips" on how to suppress your menstruation cycle. Women in combat zones are sometimes required to take meds to halt their menstrual cycles. Now, I can completely understand the inconvenience of having a cycle....every girl can. But to say that a woman can only be in combat/certain positions if she eliminates one of the biological processes that define the gender because it is an inconvenience when compared to a male soldier..

Again...not quite the same, but similar to someone not wanting to hire a woman because she could have a child in the future and require leave or something like that. Woman constantly face discrimination based off of the organs they possess, even before the questioning of women's physical abilities comes into play.