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I guess. I've just never had any success with it. Kudos to those who have had success, I suppose.
Well in all fairness, I have no personal experience in this area so you have 1 up on me there.
I guess. I've just never had any success with it. Kudos to those who have had success, I suppose.
We are having TWO discussions here.
One discussion is: what would be the philosophicall right thing to do in the given situation.
Another discussion is: what is the most beneficial reply to give in an interview situation.
What is philosophically/ethically right, depends on whose view you are subscribing to. I like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotivism, which is what seems like the most fundamentally correct definition of what is right and wrong. But I suppose, you can't tell an interviewer something like that.
So what is the interviewer looking for? A moral that is similar to his/her own? (aka mature morality ) A moral that will prove to be the most beneficial to society?
I would probably say that I would think about whether the good grades of my friend would negatively impact my career. If they do, then I would weigh the friendship up against the benefit of screwing up for her/him. Then I would consider what evidence I have. If I don't have much evidence, there is no point. Then I could just as well take out some of the big star gunners, by snitching and making false claims.
Well in all fairness, I have no personal experience in this area so you have 1 up on me there.
Neither can I .. But shortly...I can't believe you're going to be a physician someday.
Maybe it's because I go to a huge undergrad, but this kind of thing has happened in almost every class I've taken. The profs entirely expect it.Actually, I have another ethical question that is UNDOUBTEDLY more common. Fall of last year I took a class in the college of medicine at my school. Among other resources, the teacher provided the class with an exam from the previous year on-line and was willing to answer questions about it.
However, naturally, there were older graduate students who had a far more comprehensive pile of previous exams. I suspect the teacher knew about this but never made any comment either way as to whether or not we should be able to obtain those or not. I would estimate about 85% of our 20-person class had access to a copy of the older exams; in fact, I was offered a packet myself by a close friend (I refused because I had too much work on my plate as it was, and I wouldn't have had time to look at the older exams anyway).
Assuming that the class average was about a 50% on these exams and that the teacher gave out a fair share of Cs, what would you have done?
Unless a prof specifically requests students not distribute past exam questions to younger students, it's fair game.
Okay, let's change the case!
A classmate in your undergrad or post-bac or grad program has invited you to join a weekly Sunday afternoon study group. You attend all semester. At one Sunday session, a classmate begins running through problems that aren't in the book, your group works through the problems, checks the answers against the answer sheet. You ask where the problems and answer sheet came from and are told that it is the actual exam that will be administered on Thursday... your study buddy is not authorized to have the exam and is vague about how it was acquired. You might suspect that the buddy may have stolen it, hacked a computer, or bribed or blackmailed someone to get it.
What do you do?
You got me interested. What is the fallacy?...makes some fallacious arguments regarding truth and falsity of ethical statements.
Translated into English → you don't like that emotivism states that right and wrong is a construct of the human mind.Additionally, strictly speaking, it says nothing about "right/wrong", but focuses on "fact/value" instead, arguing that value judgments are emotional preferences, which is vacuous.
Okay, let's change the case!
A classmate in your undergrad or post-bac or grad program has invited you to join a weekly Sunday afternoon study group. You attend all semester. At one Sunday session, a classmate begins running through problems that aren't in the book, your group works through the problems, checks the answers against the answer sheet. You ask where the problems and answer sheet came from and are told that it is the actual exam that will be administered on Thursday... your study buddy is not authorized to have the exam and is vague about how it was acquired. You might suspect that the buddy may have stolen it, hacked a computer, or bribed or blackmailed someone to get it.
What do you do?
The professor can prosecute all he wants to, what crime would they charge me with? I didn't ask to see the paper. I didn't steal it? I might face an uncomfortable situation telling anybody.
Neither can I .. But shortly...
But what's the outrage? Do you pick your friends and act towards them out of some other principle than what is good for you? You just decide to hang out with people based on their benefit, and not your own?
Or are you just puzzled by the fact that somebody can be completely honest about the nature of how their mind (probably) works?
I can't believe so many physicians or physicians-to-be can be so self-deceptive. But I guess it has survival benefits.
Haha, yeah just a tad sociopathic...In theory, perhaps I see Miles' point. In practice, it just wouldn't be terribly fulfilling to live like that.
I doubt that there's a 'right' or 'wrong' answer to the question. But some are more nearly correct than others!
1) Knowledge of a crime without taking action on it is a crime in and of itself (Good Samaritan Law?). Also benefitting from someone else's crime is a crime. And you're probably violating your school's honor code. And probably grounds for getting kicked out.
(2) The odds of getting caught are pretty good assuming a study group of 3-4 students. SOMEONE will tell, believe me, and when word gets out that you were 'in' on what happened, you'll be in trouble. Someone will tell his gf/bf/cousin/S.O. and they WILL find out.
The notion that 'we' can reshape our friends' "moral fibers" is indeed laughable as you've pointed out. But i don't believe that everyone who cheats is a 'cheater.' Sure a good majority are prone to cheat again and again, and unfortunately will probably carry that with them into practice...if that is the impression one gets from their friend, then they have a lot of thinking to do that will weigh such things as benefit, risk, professionalism, etc. But i also think that there are those whose "moral fibers" would prevent them from cheating under normal circumstances but may in extreme situations make a huge mistake and regret it...and learn from it. "talking" with a friend might reveal that there is more going on than meets the eye and it may in fact turn out to be the action with the most benefit for all players.
You got me interested. What is the fallacy?
Translated into English → you don't like that emotivism states that right and wrong is a construct of the human mind.
But I am sure there are situations were a special action would bring about an outcome which is the best possible for everyone involved. If you want to, semantically, you could call that action, resulting in that outcome, for the RIGHT action.
But as soon as there are some individuals who would benefit more from another strategy, there is no universal RIGHT, that would be YOUR mind telling you that e.g a utilitarian solution would be the right one. Is there anything in that statement you think is fallacious?
I think the problem with an anonymous e-mail in Lizzy's situation is that if you DON'T mention yourself in the e-mail, someone else will say "Well, pianola was there, too" and you'll be in trouble. If you DO mention yourself, then it's not anonymous any more...or at least someone will be wondering "Why did the anonymous tipper say that pianola was just an innocent bystander???"
I should clarify- in the anonymous e-mail, I would not say any names. I would simply say that the test answers have been uncovered and that the test should be remade. No one gets in trouble and no one gets to cheat.
The teacher will ask you what happened. Probably ask you to explain yourself in person, though. I had that happen to me. One of the faculty at my school was spreading nasty lies about another faculty member and I remember getting the third degree about an incident I didn't want to talk about.
EDIT: Boy, I seem to have encountered more than my share of moral shortcomings ;-)
Totally, 100% agree. Last summer, I sat on the roof of my father's house, hammering nails, and while resting, I started a discussion with him about why I wasn't stealing more. Let's face it, we all are pretty smart. I read somewhere that the average IQ of an MD is 125 which is heaps above the average joe. I am sure that I could slip quite a few mars bars into my pockets, without getting caught. I don't believe in moral absolutism, so what is this conscience thing that is keeping me?But I think what you are forgetting is that morale fiber, "mental construct" or not, is very real. That is, by choosing a method that benefits you more but hurts others, you may find yourself plagued with guilt. Such guilt then becomes a problem for YOU and can cause stress. So, as it turns out, you do NOT benefit from such a method because it rests on your conscience.
Oh, I will. I didn't say I was a sociopath. That wasn't my own claim. That was more like indignation of my peers.Now I'm sure you will say that you would not be affected by such guilt and would therefore suffer no stress or problems resulting from it.
If we skip the right-wrong stuff, we could ask whether it would be beneficial or not. In most situations, you are better off playing nice!! If it is obvious that you are a sniper, then people will avoid you like the plague. The scary part is those who can occationally act like snipers, without you knowing before it is too late. Like bad friends abandoning you, when you are no longer of any good use. Although these people sadly seem to climb well in society, I am not sure if they have a satisfying emotional life with their cold demeanor. That is the dilemma we face every day. Act in a way that preserves our niceness, and still follow our interest and not get exploited. Moral reasoning is perhaps the way people try to justify how they do the balancing, and then applying that principle to other areas they aren't confronted with on a daily basis, like abortion.That is where I have no answer for you. There is no factual evidence that giving yourself the upper hand while hurting fellow classmates is wrong.
There are situations where my a-hole actions don't necessarily cause a boomerang effect. Doping is one example. Let's say you and I were to compete against each other. Following options exist:But would you want someone to do that to you?
Totally, 100% agree. Last summer, I sat on the roof of my father's house, hammering nails, and while resting, I started a discussion with him about why I wasn't stealing more. Let's face it, we all are pretty smart. I read somewhere that the average IQ of an MD is 125 which is heaps above the average joe. I am sure that I could slip quite a few mars bars into my pockets, without getting caught. I don't believe in moral absolutism, so what is this conscience thing that is keeping me?
First; nobody likes a parasite. In fact, hardly anybody likes people talking the way I am doing in this thread. Just look at the response, sociopath, etc. If I started stealing, even if I was very good, it would require me to keep a secret to ensure that I wasn't hated by my peers, or lost the love of my parents. Now, I read in my psych book that kids generally need to feel unconditional love. When you think of how bad it can feel having to keep a secret, it makes sense that you wouldn't want to engage in behavior that you couldn't tell anyone about.
I don't think it is the moral, the Bible or whatever that keeps us from doing "wrong" things. I think it is a game of what benefits us the most, and emotions do very much count in that game. I can tell you the cynical benefit of stealing 1000 times, but you will still not engage in such behavior. You would look yourself in the mirror and see a person nobody would wanna interact with. You would lose your identity, an identity you need to uphold to be somebody worthy of love. And that hurts. (Disclaimer; in this psychobabble are many simplistic theories included that cannot be proven)
Oh, I will. I didn't say I was a sociopath. That wasn't my own claim. That was more like indignation of my peers.
If we skip the right-wrong stuff, we could ask whether it would be beneficial or not. In most situations, you are better off playing nice!! If it is obvious that you are a sniper, then people will avoid you like the plague. The scary part is those who can occationally act like snipers, without you knowing before it is too late. Like bad friends abandoning you, when you are no longer of any good use. Although these people sadly seem to climb well in society, I am not sure if they have a satisfying emotional life with their cold demeanor. That is the dilemma we face every day. Act in a way that preserves our niceness, and still follow our interest and not get exploited. Moral reasoning is perhaps the way people try to justify how they do the balancing, and then applying that principle to other areas they aren't confronted with on a daily basis, like abortion.
There are situations where my a-hole actions don't necessarily cause a boomerang effect. Doping is one example. Let's say you and I were to compete against each other. Following options exist:
- I dope, you don't. I get an advantage.
- I don't dope, you don't dope. Neither gets an advantage.
- I dope, you dope. Neither gets an advantage.
- I don't dope, you dope. I get a disadvantage.
Seeing as you can't know whether I dope or not, the dominant strategy is to defect, to betray, to dope. Of course I would convince you that I was clean first. They are all clean, you know? The golden rule doesn't help you out here. It is only when you know how I have acted before, and we play the game many times, with different people, that playing cooperative gets beneficial. It is the classical tits-for-tats.
Ah, but the genes have been selectioned, and the parent's influence isn't just random. And nevertheless, rules of games aren't changed by how you feel about them, but it might place restrictions on you as a player, like you point out yourself.Interesting philosophy. But it's worth mentioning that moral reasoning isn't a roll of the dice. What one deems moral must be SOMEHOW connected to environmental factors (parents influence) and/or genetics (natural tendencies in personality). That's what gives moral reasoning value- the affirmation that such behavior is good and acceptable. And then you've got the headache that happens when it becomes "in our interest" TO "preserve our niceness," which is what we were talking about before. Man, my head's starting to spin .
If you didn't have these dogmas implanted in your conscience, you wouldn't be dissatisfied by not acting morally, or just keeping the wallet you found on the street.Such a presentation almost implies that morality is actually a burden. But we must also view the other side of the coin- when we perform acts that we consider moral, we feel happiness in self-satisfaction. Someone devoid of morality gets neither the good nor the bad.
I think the problem with an anonymous e-mail in Lizzy's situation is that if you DON'T mention yourself in the e-mail, someone else will say "Well, pianola was there, too" and you'll be in trouble. If you DO mention yourself, then it's not anonymous any more...or at least someone will be wondering "Why did the anonymous tipper say that pianola was just an innocent bystander???"
Because the person is a friend and you don't go ruining the life of your friend, especially when he took a big enough risk to take you into his confidence. While I may not be pro-hacking of computers, I surely do not think having him kicked out of med school (with Christ knows how much debt over his shoulders) is the appropriate response to it. Yet, undoubtedly, that is exactly what the administration will do. I have a responsibility to my friends, not to the administrators, as the former should usually have my back and the latter will throw me into the flames as soon as it becomes necessary.
Moreover, the integrity of the test is not an issue, as you are not marked on a curve. He won't be able to hack into the USMLE computers.
I can't recall having said anything about my own actions.PS - Miles, regardless of your incessant attempts to moralize and justify your actions, they squarely fall in the realm of sociopathy.
Its true that I believe that I am smarter in some areas than the average joe. I also have my deficits.Ergo, arguing with you about morality and conscience is about as worthwhile as arguing with a blind person about who's wearing the prettiest dress. You simply cannot understand and no, this does not make you an elite individual.
According to your morals, what would be right if this friend let you in on his planned bank robbery? Or murder?Because the person is a friend and you don't go ruining the life of your friend, especially when he took a big enough risk to take you into his confidence.
If the only argument that mattered, was that you should not snitch on a friend that confides in you, then you are the one who haven't made room for a distinction of what is confided.And please do not compare murder and robbery to cheating on a test. It is purely silly.
Everything is selfish. You are lying, and you deny it to yourself, in order to see yourself as a goodie goodie.My position in the class, while important, is not worth selling out a friend over. I'm simply not that selfish. As for fairness, I find the argument rather irrelevant. It doesn't exist in any shape, way, or form regardless.
Agree, let's keep it clean.Let's keep this thread on topic and avoid any personal attacks on members.
Gotta admire her mind/motivation-reading capabilities, though.Every post where you explain yourself is an attempt at justification.
Because the person is a friend and you don't go ruining the life of your friend, especially when he took a big enough risk to take you into his confidence. While I may not be pro-hacking of computers, I surely do not think having him kicked out of med school (with Christ knows how much debt over his shoulders) is the appropriate response to it. Yet, undoubtedly, that is exactly what the administration will do. I have a responsibility to my friends, not to the administrators, as the former should usually have my back and the latter will throw me into the flames as soon as it becomes necessary.
Moreover, the integrity of the test is not an issue, as you are not marked on a curve. He won't be able to hack into the USMLE computers.
Thirdly, I do think the integrity of a test can be compromised. (1) you're always ranked in medical school (that's how AOA is determined) and those rankings are based on grades, curved or otherwise. (2) whether you're ranked or NOT, there are issues of basic fairness that are compromised when one person has resources not available to the rest of the class. (3) when the professor finds out that 'someone' has been cheating but doesn't know whom, likely the whole class will be punished in some way or another -- taking the exams under stricter/more unpleasant conditions, probably.
In an interview:
What would you do if you caught one of your friends cheating on a test in medical school?
Correct Answer:
"I am not the 'Cheating Police' and I am not going to be 'catching' anybody doing anything. If my friend wants to cheat that's his business. Not only will I not mention it to him, thereby formally announcing that I know he is in violation of the school's honor code and exposing myself to disciplinary action if he is caught before I can turn him in, but as long as he didn't try to involve me in his unethical behavior I wouldn't dream of turning him in anyway. No nebulous concept of social justice or impending karma could get me to rat out a friend."
Of course, no one will say this.
...Does friendship or affiliation with those who have committed a crime or broken a university rule override your responsibility as a student in the academic community?
Is stealing, hacking, bribing or blackmailing to gain access to unauthorized materials wrong?
Is merely benefiting from unauthorized access to the exam wrong?
Yes. There is no such thing as an "academic community." Your medical school is a big bureaucratic organization that has zero loyalty to you and will throw you under the bus at the first sign of trouble.
Yes. of course.
Yes. And I will definitely 'rat out' anybody who gave me, unsolicited, unauthorized access to exam material. Now they have crossed the line from behavior that just effects them to ruining my career.
1) What responsibility?Does friendship or affiliation with those who have committed a crime or broken a university rule override your responsibility as a student in the academic community?
It is wrong if you get caught.Is stealing, hacking, bribing or blackmailing to gain access to unauthorized materials wrong?
If you get punished for it.Is merely benefiting from unauthorized access to the exam wrong?
That is a good question. Judging from previous behavior, I wouldn't. But I probably should, for my own good.Would you approach this differently if you were not a member of the study group that had access to the unauthorized material but learned about it a few hours before the exam? or the day the grades from the exam were posted?
Correct Answer:
"I am not the 'Cheating Police' and I am not going to be 'catching' anybody doing anything. If my friend wants to cheat that's his business. Not only will I not mention it to him, thereby formally announcing that I know he is in violation of the school's honor code and exposing myself to disciplinary action if he is caught before I can turn him in, but as long as he didn't try to involve me in his unethical behavior I wouldn't dream of turning him in anyway. No nebulous concept of social justice or impending karma could get me to rat out a friend."
Of course, no one will say this.
Yes. And I will definitely 'rat out' anybody who gave me, unsolicited, unauthorized access to exam material. Now they have crossed the line from behavior that just effects them to ruining my career.
It is wrong if you get caught.