Ethical Question

[closer23]

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[daniellema13]

yikes. my guess is most people would not do what they'd tell an adcom they would. maybe a good answer would be something like you would talk to the friend about it, ask if they are having trouble with the material and what you could you do to help? also remind them that one passing grade is not worth potentially being kicked out of med school, etc ? I mean adcoms probably know that most students wouldnt blantantly turn their friend in.

 

[QuaerensIntelle]

I agree with offering to help your friend in the class. I would also stress the consequences that getting caught would have to them. How are they cheating? Most methods aren't that effective anyway, unless you stole a copy of the test...in which case that is more serious than say memorizing old test answers (which is dumb anyway). If your friend stole a test/a bunch of people had the test and it came to your attention, I think you would almost *have* to inform the professor. However, you wouldn't have to tell them any specific people. Anyway, I think it's a sticky question, because I don't think turning in your friend is necessarily the most flattering answer.

 

[LizzyM]

A better ethics question would be, "A friend invites you to join a study group. A few hours into your first study session with the group you ask where the old tests (with answers) came from. One member of the group says that he tricked the professor's secretary to get them."

 

[Alfred E Newman]

A better ethics question would be, "A friend invites you to join a study group. A few hours into your first study session with the group you ask were the old tests (with answers) came from. One member of the group says that he tricked the professor's secretary to get them."

Please. That's not even realistic.

 

[Intrest1]

In an interview:

What would you do if you caught one of your friends cheating on a test in medical school?

If I caught a friend cheating a exam in a medical college, I would sign as if it were a bad thing he/she was doing which also making me embarrassed. Then, after the event or and exam, I would personally talk to my friend about how I did NOT like the activity that was done earlier.

 

[stereo]

If I caught a friend cheating a exam in a medical college, I would sign as if it were a bad thing he/she was doing which also making me embarrassed. Then, after the event or and exam, I would personally talk to my friend about how I did NOT like the activity that was done earlier.

 

[MDva]

Discuss it with said friend and let them know what you saw. Ask them for an explanation. If they don't have one or your suspicions were correct, then ask them to go to the course director themselves and turn themselves in. Let them know that if they do not, then you will take it to the appropriate channels. But it would be better coming from the friend.

 

[Intrest1]

So I answered it in my point of view. What is so being confusing about?

 

[mdmdt]

Please. That's not even realistic.

Sure it is. And at that point you stand to personally benefit from the ethically questionable action, making it a more difficult situation.

 

[MilesMayhem]

Sure it is. And at that point you stand to personally benefit from the ethically questionable action, making it a more difficult situation.

Pivotal to the entire situation is the chance of getting caught. If the chance of getting caught is very low, and your benefit is high, it would be unethical (aka wrong) not to cheat.

 

[MDva]

Pivotal to the entire situation is the chance of getting caught. If the chance of getting caught is very low, and your benefit is high, it would be unethical (aka wrong) not to cheat.

spoken like a TRUE pre-med student.

 

[daniellema13]

So I answered it in my point of view. What is so being confusing about?

Your writing is just a little unclear. I dont think it was the point of view that was confusing...

 

[pianola]

A better ethics question would be, "A friend invites you to join a study group. A few hours into your first study session with the group you ask were the old tests (with answers) came from. One member of the group says that he tricked the professor's secretary to get them."

I think I'd probably ask my interviewer for more details. Did the professor have a policy about previous exams? How was the secretary 'tricked'? How far through the tests had we already gotten and why had I not asked about the old tests at the beginning of the study session? When was the next test coming up?

On second thought, badgering my interviewer sounds like an express pass to rejection highway.

Still though, I think I'd need more information to understand what was going on. Lots of professors don't mind if you look at old exams and the ones that do generally make a point of announcing it up front.

 

[daniellema13]

Discuss it with said friend and let them know what you saw. Ask them for an explanation. If they don't have one or your suspicions were correct, then ask them to go to the course director themselves and turn themselves in. Let them know that if they do not, then you will take it to the appropriate channels. But it would be better coming from the friend.

I'm not sure that ruining his/her entire medical career because of one bad decision is necessarily best here. If it happened repeatedly maybe, but it's not in any med students best interest not to learn the material since they will need to pass the steps to practice (and this hopefully eliminates the potential of graduating an incompetent med student), and this is what i'd be reminding the friend. And anyway what type of explanation are you looking for? The only ones that really exist are he/she didnt study enough/at all or doesnt have confidence in his/her ability to do well. If the latter, they should be talking to an advisor or counseling or something.

 

[Alfred E Newman]

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[MilesMayhem]

We are having TWO discussions here.

One discussion is: what would be the philosophicall right thing to do in the given situation.

Another discussion is: what is the most beneficial reply to give in an interview situation.

What is philosophically/ethically right, depends on whose view you are subscribing to. I like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotivism, which is what seems like the most fundamentally correct definition of what is right and wrong. But I suppose, you can't tell an interviewer something like that.

So what is the interviewer looking for? A moral that is similar to his/her own? (aka mature morality ) A moral that will prove to be the most beneficial to society?

I would probably say that I would think about whether the good grades of my friend would negatively impact my career. If they do, then I would weigh the friendship up against the benefit of screwing up for her/him. Then I would consider what evidence I have. If I don't have much evidence, there is no point. Then I could just as well take out some of the big star gunners, by snitching and making false claims.

 

[unique135]

First thing, I need to reevaluate my friendship with him. Second, I would offer him my help and advice.

 

[flip26]

Should take into account the honor code at the school...at some schools (maybe all, I am not sure), having knowledge that someone else cheated and not turning that person in implicates you, too...all this advice about talking to the friend, etc., is kind of risky...

 

[Greonis]

The problem with this question is that it neglects too many "human" variables. Things such as your state of mind/emotions, strength of the friendship and the type of cheating must all be taken into account (for example, was the cheating even intentional?). Moreover, this is a very challenging dillema to face, and almost any decision made (from ignoring the act outright or reporting it directly to the professor) will likely have negative consequences for both you and your friend.

Going to the question and assuming that this is a very good friend of yours, I would say that the best thing to do is to have a talk with him/her about what you saw. Let your friend know how you feel about it and inform him/her of the potential consequences. You do not want to chide your friend or act uninterested, but rather behave in a manner that shows that you care and are supportive. There are very real - and very dire - consequences for being caught cheating, and it is more than likely a "symptom" of a much greater problem (such as poor study habits or a major life issue that is distracting them from their education). Encourage them to make good decisions and utilize the resources that they need to remedy the situation, be it learning new study habits, talking to the professor, or speaking to a counselor. The course taken after the conservation is going to depend greatly on the details of the event, however, so it is very difficult to give specific suggestions.

It will not be easy and your friendship may very well be strained. But if this is a true friend that you really care about, then I believe that this is the best course of action to follow. As approaching a friend on this matter is easier said than done, however, I might also suggest speaking to a disinterested third party beforehand about the best way to bring up the topic in a conversation. This person hopefully has a good understanding of the school's policies and can also offer some potential suggestions that your friend might want to consider.

 

[pianola]

The problem with this question is that it neglects too many "human" variables. Things such as your state of mind/emotions, strength of the friendship and the type of cheating must all be taken into account (for example, was the cheating even intentional?).

It's hard to answer "ethical dilemma" questions in a bubble.

I think I've only ever had one "true" ethical dilemma in my life where literally half of my loyalties lay with one camp and the other half lay in another camp. Usually, most of my loyalties strongly lean towards one option and the decision can't be properly classified as a 'dilemma'. Fortunately, one dilemma is all Pittsburgh requires

 

[BluePhoenix]

Discuss it with said friend and let them know what you saw. Ask them for an explanation. If they don't have one or your suspicions were correct, then ask them to go to the course director themselves and turn themselves in. Let them know that if they do not, then you will take it to the appropriate channels. But it would be better coming from the friend.

I completely agree. It doesn't matter how many times they've done it, nor is it up to you to determine if it's something they do on a regular basis. Being a doctor puts you in a position of a lot of responsibility and if you're willing to cheat on something like a med school test where you just need to pass...what happens later on? I think morally we're required to turn them in...let the school figure out what to do with them...but I also agree with telling them that you know and giving them the option to either explain or turn themself in beforehand. Some things are just not acceptable, and I won't compromise my values simply because I like you. We're not small children, I'd like to think we know right from wrong, there's really no excuse.

 

[MDva]

Should take into account the honor code at the school...at some schools (maybe all, I am not sure), having knowledge that someone else cheated and not turning that person in implicates you, too...all this advice about talking to the friend, etc., is kind of risky...

most schools honor code would have no issue with you if you allowed the student to turn themselves in, as long as you follow up and make sure the incident gets reported if your friend does not. i have to echo what the above poster pointed out.

this coming from someone involved in a medical campus honor council.

 

[NoMoreAMCAS]

I'd say "you lucky bastad, why didn't you hook me up? Screw me over again and i'm gonna rat you out".

To the adcom i'd just say the same as everyone else, "this is bad, the consequences are severe, it's not worth it, etc, etc...."

 

[Quix]

A better ethics question would be, "A friend invites you to join a study group. A few hours into your first study session with the group you ask where the old tests (with answers) came from. One member of the group says that he tricked the professor's secretary to get them."

An even *better* ethics question is "What would you do for a Klondike bar?"

 

[unsung]

We are having TWO discussions here.

One discussion is: what would be the philosophicall right thing to do in the given situation.

Another discussion is: what is the most beneficial reply to give in an interview situation.

What is philosophically/ethically right, depends on whose view you are subscribing to. I like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotivism, which is what seems like the most fundamentally correct definition of what is right and wrong. But I suppose, you can't tell an interviewer something like that.

So what is the interviewer looking for? A moral that is similar to his/her own? (aka mature morality ) A moral that will prove to be the most beneficial to society?

I would probably say that I would think about whether the good grades of my friend would negatively impact my career. If they do, then I would weigh the friendship up against the benefit of screwing up for her/him. Then I would consider what evidence I have. If I don't have much evidence, there is no point. Then I could just as well take out some of the big star gunners, by snitching and making false claims.

So... whether or not your friend cheats is only important insofar as how it affects YOU? Um... that answer raises a bunch of red flags in my mind. I don't know if that was a serious answer or not. So please ignore me if it was in jest .

How about your friend's future as a physician? Assume your friend gets away with this cheating episode and continues to cheat in the future... it makes sense to extrapolate that by the time s/he graduates, s/he will have cheated multiple times and it becomes highly debatable whether s/he truly mastered the requisite material needed to become a capable physician. Anyway, a physician who feels no moral compunctions against cheating is one dangerous beast... what if s/he later makes a mistake treating a patient? It seems likely such a person would attempt to cover the mistake up, rather than doing what is most responsible for the patient.

To answer the OP, to me this isn't actually much of a dilemma. I personally would never cheat, and my good friends would not cheat either. IME, people who are willing to cheat on academics are the same people who are willing to cheat in romantic relationships... and these are typically people I don't care to associate with. I mean, these are not trustworthy people, even as friends, if not romantic partners. While some believe EVERYONE has the potential to cheat in a relationship ("just depends on the situation"), I honestly believe there are some who will never cheat, and some who are willing to... when they can get away with it. Also, there's a difference between not cheating because one is afraid of getting caught, and not cheating because one is morally opposed to the idea of cheating...

Not trying to be a Polyanna or anything (I mean, I download music and such lol...), but cheating on an exam is just something I would not do. Some of my acquaintances are a bit more iffy, but I would not have a problem turning in an acquaintance. If I found out a good friend of mine actually did something like this, I'd have to re-evaluate that friendship, because that would be a huge surprise for me. Then I would talk to the friend and find out what's going on and advise her/him to self-report or somehow make up for it. I guess it also depends on the friend's attitude. If s/he seemed really guilty/remorseful, then that's one thing. Otoh, if his/her concern seemed to be whether I'd turn him/her in or whether he/she could get away with it, then that increases the likelihood I'd directly go to the professor. So basically, I would not AUTOMATICALLY turn in my good friend (although it'd surprise the hell out of me)... but I might, depending on his/her reaction, or whether I feel like s/he might do it again.

 

[circulus vitios]

If exams in medical school are graded on a curve, and his cheating results in him setting the curve, then I would report him. If exams were not graded on a curve I wouldn't do anything as it is none of my business.

 

[DoctorSteinman]

What would you do if it turned out it was YOU cheating on a test in medical school?

 

[pianola]

What would you do if it turned out it was YOU cheating on a test in medical school?

One of my multiple personalities would probably freak out and slap the other one.

What kind of a question is that?

 

[DoctorSteinman]

One of my multiple personalities would probably freak out and slap the other one.

I'm telling.

 

[pianola]

I'm telling.

 

[DoctorSteinman]

Be afraid.

 

[Bradstein]

If exams in medical school are graded on a curve, and his cheating results in him setting the curve, then I would report him. If exams were not graded on a curve I wouldn't do anything as it is none of my business.

Good point. He's only hurting himself when it comes to the boards.

 

[riceman04]

An even *better* ethics question is "What would you do for a Klondike bar?"

I would slap my momma!!!





ohhhhhhh....ummmm...no I wouldn't

 

[eagle34]

We had a talk about cheating in medical school during our orientation. The deans talked about a case that occurred at BU Med, and a hypothetical case.

In a real case, a professor found that the answer sheets of 2 students were remarkably similar, and confronted them about it. The students admitted to cheating (honest about cheating); the deans and professional committee talked to both students, who seemed genuinely sorry about the event. The students were asked to take the rest of the year off, to write an essay about the importance of not cheating, and were put on academic probation. Both students are now residents in top hospitals.

In a hypothetical question, we were asked what we would do if we noticed a student cheating on an exam. In the end, it was decided that as a professional, we need to be honest with our peers and our professors. First, it is better to confront the student about it and see what he/she says and if he/she admits to it. If he does admit, urge the student to talk to the professor because as a current and future professional, you need to be responsible for your actions and be honest. If he doesn't want to talk to the professor, you should talk to a dean about the incident, since in the end, the student is only cheating himself. Still, most importantly, medical students need to be professional, and a very important part of professionalism is honesty.

 

[sevenmints]

hmm... unethical, stress-riddled, sleep-deprived medical students threatened with the possibility of disgrace and dismissal from the school they worked their whole lives to get into...

Hrmmm.. sounds like a rat's gonna get capped. i'd be too afraid to tell .

 

[eagle34]

hmm... unethical, stress-riddled, sleep-deprived medical students threatened with the possibility of disgrace and dismissal from the school they worked their whole lives to get into...

Hrmmm.. sounds like a rat's gonna get capped. i'd be too afraid to tell .

That's true, most people would not tell, I think. Still, the cheater is only cheating himself in the end because you're gonna be tested on this stuff anyways, likely, on the boards.

 

[LizzyM]

What if this were happening right now, while you are taking college (or grad school) classes before being admitted to medical school? Schools may ask you ethical questions about college life rather than questions about experiences you can't be expected to have had yet (being a medical student).


To the earlier question about the ethical problem...

The professor is not in the habit of making old exams with answer keys available to students.

It isn't obvious to you until a few hours into a study session that the material your fellow students are using doesn't seem permissible.

Does it matter how the secretary was tricked? Would some kinds of trickery make the use of the exams acceptable and others make the use of the exams immoral? Would the type of trickery used to obtain the exams change how you would handle this situation?

Why does it matter when the next exam is? Do you handle this situation differently if the next exam is 4 days from now rather than 4 weeks from now?

 

[Quix]

I would slap my momma!!!





ohhhhhhh....ummmm...no I wouldn't

 

[pianola]

Does it matter how the secretary was tricked? Would some kinds of trickery make the use of the exams acceptable and others make the use of the exams immoral? Would the type of trickery used to obtain the exams change how you would handle this situation?

Why does it matter when the next exam is? Do you handle this situation differently if the next exam is 4 days from now rather than 4 weeks from now?

I think it does matter a little how the secretary was tricked. I mean, assuming some degree of negligence on the part of the secretary, then s/he might be part of the problem, too. Not necessarily ethically, but security issues may need to be resolved to prevent further cheating. IMHO, how the secretary was tricked is almost a more important problem because the students have already cheated -- the students already have the information. Preventing further cheating is really a more important aim.

If the next exam is the next day, I'd feel under pressure to react immediately -- that night, maybe. I'd have a lot of thinking to do before I called/e-mailed a professor the night before an exam or the day OF an exam with a "look at this blatant cheating problem" e-mail. I'm sure that would just irritate the professor to no end. I've e-mailed professors with cheating problems before (in a different capacity) and, as professors are often busy people, a lot of times they may not wish to deal with the problem.

~~
If I really felt that the situation was blatant obvious cheating, I think I'd remove myself from the study group. I would need some time to consider the level of cheating and what the overall "damages" were -- how much were the students 'benefitting' from the old exams? If I thought that the situation clearly provided an unfair advantage or that the method of trickery used on the secretary was extremely unethical, I would probably request a meeting with the professor and try to explain the situation to him/her in person. I've done this before, actually (in college and in high school, unfortunately).

In my senior year of high school, a new English professor started teaching at our school, and she subsequently busted a lot of 4.0 GPA seniors who were clearly cheating on analytical essays. The students in question suffered minimal penalties. Slap on the wrist. They also got into Berkeley, Stanford, Cornell, Harvard, and Yale to name a few and maintained their 4.0s to the very end. I certainly did well enough on my own merits, but in my experience, I've found that instructors are generally hesitant to deal with cheating problems, especially when the integrity of high-achieving students is called into question.

Really, if professors consider cheating to be a problem, they need to make it CRYSTAL clear to the class at the first meeting. I want to know what professors plan to do about the cheating just as much as they are interested in knowing what I would do about the cheating. On past experience, I don't have a lot of confidence that professors respond to allegations of cheating.

 

[MilesMayhem]

So... whether or not your friend cheats is only important insofar as how it affects YOU? Um... that answer raises a bunch of red flags in my mind. I don't know if that was a serious answer or not. So please ignore me if it was in jest .

It was dead serious. You should've looked up the link to "emotivsm" that I provided.

How about your friend's future as a physician? Assume your friend gets away with this cheating episode and continues to cheat in the future... it makes sense to extrapolate that by the time s/he graduates, s/he will have cheated multiple times and it becomes highly debatable whether s/he truly mastered the requisite material needed to become a capable physician.

All true. But that doesn't explain why I should feel obliged to do anything about it. I have rid myself of the notion that I need to police others, it is likely a residue of behavioral manipulation.

Anyway, a physician who feels no moral compunctions against cheating is one dangerous beast... what if s/he later makes a mistake treating a patient? It seems likely such a person would attempt to cover the mistake up, rather than doing what is most responsible for the patient.

People cover up all the time. I have seen it. The only sure way to avoid it is to rely on THE SYSTEM and not on the individual. The more the system relies on individual obligation to crucify oneself, the more likely it is that a significant amount of the bell curve will play the cover-up game. Reduce the punishment, reduce the blame-game, introduce mutual learning, and people will not cover up.

I honestly believe there are some who will never cheat, and some who are willing to... when they can get away with it. Also, there's a difference between not cheating because one is afraid of getting caught, and not cheating because one is morally opposed to the idea of cheating...

Being morally opposed to the idea of cheating is a defense mechanism, where you insure that you are not tempted by cheating even when it seems beneficial. The biological background is bound to be that you become a person that people are more likely wanting to trust and interact with. You preserve your identity, and escape emotional turmoil by acting "good," it is not because there is something written on a stone slab from heaven stopping you.

Not trying to be a Polyanna or anything (I mean, I download music and such lol...), but cheating on an exam is just something I would not do.

I never did, either. I deeply regret it, the only reason I didn't was because I was afraid that people would have the opportunity to look down on me if I did. So again, there is only egotistical reasons behind, even if you don't want to admit this to yourself.

but I would not have a problem turning in an acquaintance. If I found out a good friend of mine actually did something like this, I'd have to re-evaluate that friendship, because that would be a huge surprise for me. Then I would talk to the friend and find out what's going on and advise her/him to self-report or somehow make up for it.

Which in effect, means that your needs to be seen as a good person, means that you are a lousy friend. When the advise that you are giving a friend, isn't helping the friend, then it isn't advise. I am not saying it is w.r.o.n.g, but you are a lousy friend.

I guess it also depends on the friend's attitude. If s/he seemed really guilty/remorseful, then that's one thing. Otoh, if his/her concern seemed to be whether I'd turn him/her in or whether he/she could get away with it, then that increases the likelihood I'd directly go to the professor.

You have just described a common attitude that explains why people are willing to be miserable and feel sorry. To escape more scolding from their peers out of tactical reasons.

 

[MilesMayhem]

We had a talk about cheating in medical school during our orientation. The deans talked about a case that occurred at BU Med, and a hypothetical case.

In a real case, a professor found that the answer sheets of 2 students were remarkably similar, and confronted them about it. The students admitted to cheating (honest about cheating); the deans and professional committee talked to both students, who seemed genuinely sorry about the event. The students were asked to take the rest of the year off, to write an essay about the importance of not cheating, and were put on academic probation.

Yeah, there you see how beneficial it is, being honest. My reply would have been: "likelihood is not a proof. Prove it."

In a hypothetical question, we were asked what we would do if we noticed a student cheating on an exam. In the end, it was decided that as a professional, we need to be honest with our peers and our professors.

Goodie, I always like it when truth is established and people swallow it as an absolute. Hmm.. I wonder why any professor would want to seed that idea into you. I'll bet my money that professor wasn't robert axelrod.

First, it is better to confront the student about it and see what he/she says and if he/she admits to it.

Better for whom?

If he does admit, urge the student to talk to the professor because as a current and future professional, you need to be responsible for your actions and be honest.

Dishonest manipulation. What a great professional trait. Inventing bulls-hit moral absolutism to coerce people.

Still, most importantly, medical students need to be professional, and a very important part of professionalism is honesty.

Explain why I need to fulfill your definition of professionalism again, please. Explain how I will suffer from not doing that, and how I would suffer from not snitching.

I think it is just focking hilarious how dishonest people touting honesty actually are. The minute they play the moral card, they become lying, manipulative, stupid sons-of-bitches.

 

[pianola]

^I think as physicians (and particularly in pediatrics, for example), we DO have a role that involves deciding what is "best" for others. Or "policing' others as you put it.

I have to admit that I understand your level of cynicism, perhaps for different reasons. In my experience, I haven't seen anyone benefit from turning in cheaters. So I have mixed feelings on the matter.

I don't consider myself a "hero" for turning in someone who cheats, nor do I consider someone who cheats a morally reprehensible person. But I do think that I have some obligation to uphold some level of fairness that we can all live with. Maybe fairness means turning in your friend, maybe it doesn't.

You've heard the saying "life isn't fair"? Well, if we all agreed to accept those principles blindly, we'd just fall into total anarchy where everyone just does what they want. Without an objective means of grading and evaluating people, the whole system is worthless.

~~
On the other hand, I think it's funny that a lot of people here are suggesting that they would "talk to their friend(s) about the situation". Are you SERIOUS? Come on now, your friends have been forming their moral fibers since the age of 6. What exactly are you proposing to tell them that will change their attitudes?

 

[MilesMayhem]

You've heard the saying "life isn't fair"? Well, if we all agreed to accept those principles blindly, we'd just fall into total anarchy where everyone just does what they want. Without an objective means of grading and evaluating people, the whole system is worthless.

I wonder whether it is the other way around. You act "fair" because of cynical mechanisms, but to avoid thinking about it, you create BS excuses and invent absolute morality. We cooperate because we benefit from it. There are even game theory books on the rationale behind this, like the evolution of cooperation by robert axelrod, describing a computer simulation of the iterated prisoner's dilemma.

On the other hand, I think it's funny that a lot of people here are suggesting that they would "talk to their friend(s) about the situation". Are you SERIOUS? Come on now, your friends have been forming their moral fibers since the age of 6. What exactly are you proposing to tell them that will change their attitudes?

100% agree. You might win an argument in class by emphasizing moral, where people can't put up a decent reply on-the-fly, but in a one-on-one situation, your friend will just nod, and then don't comply nonetheless.

 

[pianola]

Actually, I have another ethical question that is UNDOUBTEDLY more common. Fall of last year I took a class in the college of medicine at my school. Among other resources, the teacher provided the class with an exam from the previous year on-line and was willing to answer questions about it.

However, naturally, there were older graduate students who had a far more comprehensive pile of previous exams. I suspect the teacher knew about this but never made any comment either way as to whether or not we should be able to obtain those or not. I would estimate about 85% of our 20-person class had access to a copy of the older exams; in fact, I was offered a packet myself by a close friend (I refused because I had too much work on my plate as it was, and I wouldn't have had time to look at the older exams anyway).

Assuming that the class average was about a 50% on these exams and that the teacher gave out a fair share of Cs, what would you have done?

 

[pianola]

There are even game theory books on the rationale behind this, like the evolution of cooperation by robert axelrod, describing a computer simulation of the iterated prisoner's dilemma.

I think I've heard of that theory. Where eventually the computer decided that cooperation resulted in the best results for both prisoners?

I've been thinking about the theory for a long time and I think the glitch that I've found with it is that the theory doesn't take into account that screwing over the other prisoner on your last move (when your opponent has no chance to respond) results in a better outcome for the prisoner who screwed over the other one.

 

[MilesMayhem]

Actually, I have another ethical question that is UNDOUBTEDLY more common. Fall of last year I took a class in the college of medicine at my school. Among other resources, the teacher provided the class with an exam from the previous year on-line and was willing to answer questions about it.

However, naturally, there were older graduate students who had a far more comprehensive pile of previous exams. I suspect the teacher knew about this but never made any comment either way as to whether or not we should be able to obtain those or not. I would estimate about 85% of our 20-person class had access to a copy of the older exams; in fact, I was offered a packet myself by a close friend (I refused because I had too much work on my plate as it was, and I wouldn't have had time to look at the older exams anyway).

Assuming that the class average was about a 50% on these exams and that the teacher gave out a fair share of Cs, what would you have done?

Been there. I included a comment about it on my exam, it wasn't multiple choice. I got an A, and an A that year. I was gambling, I had worked hard to give off a sympathetic impression of myself, and then I made a remark that the teacher could interpret as personal criticism. I said that I had to make a guess, as I hadn't been able to catch the previous exam circulating. If you want to change the world, tell the teacher that she should hand out more exams to make an even field. If you can contain your personal missionary drive, just adapt. If teachers are like CEOs, then 75% of them don't like to hear statements pointing out their mistakes. (That is very hard to come past when you are affected, so diplomacy and intelligence is needed. There should be psych books on how to assess and manipulate teachers more efficiently. You can't just complain about grades, if your goal is to achieve a benefit beyond venting.)

Adding to that is the fact that your teacher was probably aware of the situation, but didn't feel like making an entirely new test, so pointing it out wouldn't have changed anything. The only reason would be to do what I did, imho. Point it out in secret, to gain sympathy, if you are one of the disadvantaged.

With teachers, the sooner you realize that their behavior is not a simple function of understanding, and that you can't change them entirely by moral arguments, the faster you are gonna get them grades up.

 

[MilesMayhem]

I think I've heard of that theory. Where eventually the computer decided that cooperation resulted in the best results for both prisoners?

I've been thinking about the theory for a long time and I think the glitch that I've found with it is that the theory doesn't take into account that screwing over the other prisoner on your last move (when your opponent has no chance to respond) results in a better outcome for the prisoner who screwed over the other one.

I haven't read the book , so I don't know if the players knew the number of rounds beforehand. But it is a damn smart thought. Why didn't I think of that? Now I just have to go slice some tyres on my last day before graduation.

 

[daniellema13]

~~
On the other hand, I think it's funny that a lot of people here are suggesting that they would "talk to their friend(s) about the situation". Are you SERIOUS? Come on now, your friends have been forming their moral fibers since the age of 6. What exactly are you proposing to tell them that will change their attitudes?

The notion that 'we' can reshape our friends' "moral fibers" is indeed laughable as you've pointed out. But i don't believe that everyone who cheats is a 'cheater.' Sure a good majority are prone to cheat again and again, and unfortunately will probably carry that with them into practice...if that is the impression one gets from their friend, then they have a lot of thinking to do that will weigh such things as benefit, risk, professionalism, etc. But i also think that there are those whose "moral fibers" would prevent them from cheating under normal circumstances but may in extreme situations make a huge mistake and regret it...and learn from it. "talking" with a friend might reveal that there is more going on than meets the eye and it may in fact turn out to be the action with the most benefit for all players.

 

[pianola]

The notion that 'we' can reshape our friends' "moral fibers" is indeed laughable as you've pointed out. But i don't believe that everyone who cheats is a 'cheater.' Sure a good majority are prone to cheat again and again, and unfortunately will probably carry that with them into practice...if that is the impression one gets from their friend, then they have a lot of thinking to do that will weigh such things as benefit, risk, professionalism, etc. But i also think that there are those whose "moral fibers" would prevent them from cheating under normal circumstances but may in extreme situations make a huge mistake and regret it...and learn from it. "talking" with a friend might reveal that there is more going on than meets the eye and it may in fact turn out to be the action with the most benefit for all players.

I guess. I've just never had any success with it. Kudos to those who have had success, I suppose.