Exercise for mood relief...

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Fiveoboy11

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How often do psychiatrists prescribe this? And/or refer to someone for set up of an exercise program to relieve, i.e. anxiety/depression complaints? As a PT I see a lot of patients with LBP/neck pain who are diagnosed with anxiety/depression and medicated and/or have emotional overtones or appearance of anxiety/stress/depression.
 
I prescribe exercise all the time. I do believe it has mood stabilizing effects. However, it's hard enough for stable individuals to be so disciplined as to exercise 3-5 days per week. Imagine if one is feeling depressed with zero motivation and will to live is completely shot; or anxious and completely overwhelmed by everything else, that it would be even harder.

Look at primary care. They frequently prescribe exercise to individuals with diabetes and essential hypertension. Do the patients follow through? Some do and get better. Others don't and get their toes amputated.

I have had depressed patients with lack of appetite and significant weight loss make a 180 degree spin with my recommendations of exercise and gradually advancing their diet (ingesting more liquid calories such as protein shakes when their appetite is low to prevent further weight loss and exercising to stimulate their appetite and promote muscle growth).

It isn't very common that I've seen psychiatric patients or patients in general make this challenging lifestyle change. There may be other ways to address the core obstacles preventing individuals from caring for themselves ie. looking at dynamic factors. If the issue is closer to the surface, motivational interviewing may be helpful. In most cases, I simply make the recommendation and let the patient make their choice.
 
I also prescribe exercise all the time - it's basically routine for me. In my med checks I try to always encourage 1) psychotherapy, 2) exercise, 3) sleep hygiene, 4) substance abuse check.

Talking about this stuff I believe actually ENHANCES med compliance because it demonstrates to patients that you actually care about THEM and not just the pharmaceuticals . . . now if I actually gets the to exercise is another story!
 
I used to do P90X 4-5x a week, that is until fellowship. I let myself go due to stress, and literally felt sick at times because of how out of shape I was.

I've been working out again but now at a rate of 1-4x a week. I really need to get back on this.

As for recommending it to my patients, I do, but I hate saying this, they rarely seem interested, though I do recommend it. Some patients seem to want to get the quick fix. I have noticed a group that does seem to want to do the holistic thing (e.g. fish oil), but very few actually want to do exercise.
 
I think you hit the nail on the head when you ask how often do physicians "prescribe" this. You can't "prescribe" behavioral activation or change with much success. That's not how behavioral change really works. It makes sense to work with therapists who are going to make exercise a part of the "homework" between sessions and who have the expertise to use motivational enhancement techniques and problem solving. It also makes sense to reinforce this in your visit and use some brief motivational techniques time permitting, but typically you have too many other things to do in a session with someone who is acutely depressed to focus on it for long.

Physicians harping about behavior changes like exercise, losing weight, and quitting smoking is only helpful a tiny percentage of the time. The rest, it's probably harmful, as it likely just increases resistance if not approached in certain ways. So if you're not going to do it "right," (i.e., MI based techniques), you shouldn't do it at all.

My very prescriptive and ineffective primary care physician (whom I otherwise really like) harped on me a bit. Honestly, I did not go to a pcp about 12 years because I knew I was overweight and because I knew that most physicians, frankly, are high-and-mighty *******s about their patients who are overweight. She did give me info about a clinical trial about some computer based interventions for weight loss, and I thought it sounded like fun. However, I was assigned to the placebo arm (this must have been the worst blinded trial ever), and the PI on the study, who lead the orientation session, was one of the most obnoxious, annoying people I ever met. I lost about 30 pounds during the study because, honestly, I had fantasies that if I lost a lot of weight, I could screw up the results, make their intervention look worse, and maybe she wouldn't get her next grant funded. So, besides motivational interviewing, being really vindictive helps too.

I had a very good full semester graduate level motivational interviewing course taught by someone who wrote several of the chapters in the Miller and Rollnick book during a masters degree during medical school. When I returned, we had a standardized patient examination about weight loss. During the session, I used lots of MI techniques, and received really high marks from the SP on feeling motivated to go lose weight. But I failed the exercise. I failed the exercise because what they wanted us to do was go through a lot of information, not elicit much feedback, beat them down the throat, and make sure to thoroughly cover a few medications for weight loss that were frankly no better than placebo on a good day (and even spending most of the time on MI, I still covered 80% of their crap). I tried to explain to them why their approach was flat out bad, but the rheumatologist running the program (who was a hell of a lot fatter than me, by the way--a bunch of fat people discussing weight loss is always a nice SNL skit waiting to happen), looked at me like I was speaking jibberish. I did the exercise again, did what I thought was near malpractice, and passed with flying colors.

So your question is a good one, but "do you do it" is much less important than "how you do it." Maybe 15-20% of the population hears what a doctor says about behavior change and thinks, "hey, I should go do that." The rest of the 80% say, "I know that, *******. If it was so easy, I would already be doing it. You didn't help me at all. You really just pissed me off and make me want to go sit on the couch/smoke another cigarette/eat more doritos."

To be consistent with OPD (who is addiction trained and clearly skilled at motivational interviewing,) offering behavioral interventions on the "menu of options" of things folks can do to feel better is perfectly fine. Giving some feedback as to why you think these things is a good idea is good. But the way that most physicians do these things, by shoving them down people's throats, is bad.
 
I used to do P90X 4-5x a week, that is until fellowship. I let myself go due to stress, and literally felt sick at times because of how out of shape I was.

I've been working out again but now at a rate of 1-4x a week. I really need to get back on this.

As for recommending it to my patients, I do, but I hate saying this, they rarely seem interested, though I do recommend it. Some patients seem to want to get the quick fix. I have noticed a group that does seem to want to do the holistic thing (e.g. fish oil), but very few actually want to do exercise.

P90x is terrific, and kudos to you for pulling through with it (I don't personally know a lot of people that can do it). I did have to make adjustments to diet because I felt extremely lethargic and tired for the first month, and I also felt that the yoga was extremely unnatural for my body to do (I could have been pushing myself a little too hard).

I personally found myself to feel better when I was just working out regularly to beat of my own drum, weights, cardio as I see fit, playing sports, riding my bike and eating whenever I felt hungry, rather than sticking to the p90x regimen...but I think p90x is absolutely terrific if you're a very results oriented person and need to have a beach body asap. I personally think it's too unrealistic to keep as part of a permanent lifestyle change, though I would keep the ab ripper x. That **** is great. 😀
 
I think the motivational interviewing might be an effective idea because the best way to get through to people is to have them seriously, deeply, question their wants and desires. Sticking to exercise isn't easy, but anything that is worth doing and putting effort into usually isn't easy anyways, at least not at first. If I could pop a pill to get a PhD in Philosophy...

Excellence is a habit, not something you take 3 times a day...and so on and so forth.

Oh I should also mention that one of my best friends who owns a Shoppers Drug Mart store here in Canada (drugstore chain, like duane reade/walgreens etc), after bringing up this topic with him also mentioned that basically all of the people that have come in for antidepressants or other psychotropics, didn't look like "well" people, ie: out of shape, poor skin tone, unhealthy hair, nails etc etc. You can tell when someone just looks unhealthy. Not surprising to most, yes, but it does lend further credence to exercise being an important part of a persons well-being. Sound body, sound mind.
 
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So your question is a good one, but "do you do it" is much less important than "how you do it." Maybe 15-20% of the population hears what a doctor says about behavior change and thinks, "hey, I should go do that." The rest of the 80% say, "I know that, *******. If it was so easy, I would already be doing it. You didn't help me at all. You really just pissed me off and make me want to go sit on the couch/smoke another cigarette/eat more doritos."

To be consistent with OPD (who is addiction trained and clearly skilled at motivational interviewing,) offering behavioral interventions on the "menu of options" of things folks can do to feel better is perfectly fine. Giving some feedback as to why you think these things is a good idea is good. But the way that most physicians do these things, by shoving them down people's throats, is bad.

I think your post nicely illustrates the two main thrusts of MI--first, having some understanding of where the pt is in terms of "Stages of Change"--e.g. the 20% above are in a "Preparation" stage, and ready for some ideas, whereas the 80% are probably in "Contemplation" or even "Pre-contemplation". In neither case is it helpful to "prescribe" a behavior plan, but with the Preparation/Action folks it can be very helpful to pass on some specific ideas to "support self-efficacy", as they say. (I mentioned "Couch to 5K" above, because it was what I myself used to get off my butt 2 years ago, not wanting to be one of those fat, lazy doctors that wants everyone else to change...)
 
(I mentioned "Couch to 5K" above, because it was what I myself used to get off my butt 2 years ago, not wanting to be one of those fat, lazy doctors that wants everyone else to change...)

My wife and I did that a few years ago too, and she essentially credits that with her finally taking the LSAT and getting into a bunch of top 10 law schools instead of continuing to work at the animal shelter for 10 bucks an hour. Couch to 5k probably deserves some clinical trials with MI. I skipped ahead to about week 4 when I started, so it's certainly not too aggressive for just about any one who has functional knees.
 
I think your post nicely illustrates the two main thrusts of MI--first, having some understanding of where the pt is in terms of "Stages of Change"--e.g. the 20% above are in a "Preparation" stage, and ready for some ideas, whereas the 80% are probably in "Contemplation" or even "Pre-contemplation". In neither case is it helpful to "prescribe" a behavior plan, but with the Preparation/Action folks it can be very helpful to pass on some specific ideas to "support self-efficacy", as they say. (I mentioned "Couch to 5K" above, because it was what I myself used to get off my butt 2 years ago, not wanting to be one of those fat, lazy doctors that wants everyone else to change...)

I think one of the first steps in getting someone to listen to you is that they see you as being genuine. That you really do want them to be well, and that you're not going to be fake or sugarcoat things, and that you're listening to them and their unique situation.

I think once you feel that you have this rapport with a person, you're more likely to have their attention and you can try different ways of getting them to listen to the advice being given.

I also think the last point you mentioned about getting yourself to be active and offering the same advice is a good idea, though I think it's such a widely used tactic across different areas of life that intelligent people will see through it - especially if they're not connecting with you and see you as genuine.
 
P90x is terrific, and kudos to you for pulling through with it (I don't personally know a lot of people that can do it). I did have to make adjustments to diet because I felt extremely lethargic and tired for the first month, and I also felt that the yoga was extremely unnatural for my body to do (I could have been pushing myself a little too hard).

I personally found myself to feel better when I was just working out regularly to beat of my own drum, weights, cardio as I see fit, playing sports, riding my bike and eating whenever I felt hungry, rather than sticking to the p90x regimen...but I think p90x is absolutely terrific if you're a very results oriented person and need to have a beach body asap. I personally think it's too unrealistic to keep as part of a permanent lifestyle change, though I would keep the ab ripper x. That **** is great. 😀

Insanity is even better! Especially since the workouts are more brief, intense, and don't require weights/pull-up bar. Both are great though!
 
Insanity is even better! Especially since the workouts are more brief, intense, and don't require weights/pull-up bar. Both are great though!

I looked at both extremely closely before choosing, and after doing a lot of reading and seeing what the workouts were like, and post regimen pictures of people, I came to the conclusion that insanity was just a little too much cardio for my taste and not good for development of muscle mass because there's hardly any resistance training.

p90x is good in the sense that you can tailor it to your needs - if you want to tone, use lighter weights, increase the amount of reps. If you're looking to build mass, heavier weights, less reps.

It seemed like a better overall regimen, while still heavy on cardio, it's still a good enough program that you can tinker it to be a mass building program while still being fairly lean.

Insanity I decided was good for women who were previously in shape and just gave birth, who were looking to shed those extra pounds quickly. Or just anyone looking to really trim body fat to extremes. The pictures I saw of people post-Insanity, expectedly, didn't look as fit/healthy as people after completing p90x. Too much cardio is blech.

That being said, ANY activity is better than no activity. I know some people that over complicate things (i dont have money for a gym membership, oh there's no gyms nearby, i dont have the time, i don't know where to start, what if i do things wrong, i can't control my diet etc etc etc). As long as you start on something, it's a good step to build from.
 
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Spark was a great book, but from memory (I don't have time to look it up right now) I think it mentioned that exercise was effective and antidepressants were effective, but doing both together was not more effective than either alone, or maybe that antidepressants took away from the exercise effect. If someone who read this more recently can clarify that point it would be great.

Anyhow, does anyone try to address this 'interaction' in their practice?

Also I get what billy is saying about exercise, and I think he is right. Still, I think looking at Spark and the literature that exists on exercise would allow you to actually tell a patient something new--- for instance, that a Duke study showed that exercise was as effective as an antidepressant for depression. I did not know that until I read this book and I'm guessing lots of patients will not either. I always pictured some kind of fuzzy "runner's high" where you are supposed to feel intoxicated from jogging or something, which doesn't tend to happen and isn't what is supposed to happen.
 
I'm at the VA about 30% of the time, and it's nice to be able to refer inpatients and outpatients to the recreational therapists and health psychologists and the MOVE program - people who have more time/training motivating folks to exercise and lose weight.

Yet one more example of how the VA provides better mental health care that can usually be found in the private sector!!
 
the short answer to the OP's question is: yes, all the time. I too loved Spark! For the most resistant, I use MI techniques and try to get them to commit to 60 seconds initially, then they can stop if they want. It's the chronic pain people who are the hardest to budge, particularly if they have joint injury (but even--perhaps especially--the fibro-type pain people can be astonishingly resistant), but who of course can get the best benefit in terms of mood/anxiety/sleep/endogenous opioid release! If they are motivated, I give them websites like sparkpeople.com, 100pushups.com, etc. I also encourage strength training, as depression and anxiety are such excellent thieves of one's sense of competence and confidence, and developing core and extremity strength is a fabulous antidote.
 
the short answer to the OP's question is: yes, all the time. I too loved Spark! For the most resistant, I use MI techniques and try to get them to commit to 60 seconds initially, then they can stop if they want. It's the chronic pain people who are the hardest to budge, particularly if they have joint injury (but even--perhaps especially--the fibro-type pain people can be astonishingly resistant), but who of course can get the best benefit in terms of mood/anxiety/sleep/endogenous opioid release! If they are motivated, I give them websites like sparkpeople.com, 100pushups.com, etc. I also encourage strength training, as depression and anxiety are such excellent thieves of one's sense of competence and confidence, and developing core and extremity strength is a fabulous antidote.

Just don't come off like #5 when saying that 😉

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FomroPMOKvg
 
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