EXPELLED Dental Students accepted into Midwestern-AZ

[TheKrentist]

In October of last year, a fourth year dental student was expelled from dental school for some seriously unethical behavior. This person was caught stealing Denar Mark 330 Articulators from classmates and selling them on eBay. Other items were revealed to have been stolen from the dental school, including high-speed handpieces and PSP plates. The faculty acted quickly by dismissing the student from school.

Flash forward to today, and Midwestern University Dental has accepted this student into their program as a third year dental student.

Not only that, but 4 years ago, there was a similar case where a student was expelled for cheating on exams, only to be later accepted at Midwestern-AZ!

I am disappointed to see a person that has displayed such an extreme lack of character be allowed to enter into our profession. I also feel it is our obligation as dentists to protect our profession, and ensure that patients are receiving quality care from professionals of character.

Does action needed to be taken on our part as dentists to prevent individuals like this from harming patients? Should Midwestern University be held responsible for the type of students that are admitted into their program?

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[lemoncurry]

While that behavior is immoral, illegal and unethical, I find it highly unlikely that Midwestern has not done their homework before accepting this student. There could be all kinds of stipulations in place or probationary terms or something that you may not be aware of nor privy to. I highly dislike the idea of vigilantism in a case like this. I know most people tend to think that admins are idiots, but this is a case where I think you need to trust that the higher ups know what they are doing.

If Midwestern chooses to give students a second chance, that is their prerogative. There is no guarantee that this person will end up being an unethical dentist.

 

[shulk]

Are the faculty/admins at your school aware that this person has been accepted into another dental school? Dental schools/residencies/med schools do not necessarily communicate with one another all of the facts. In this past, this has led to situations like Michael Swango happening. The first thing I would do is make sure the administration at your school is aware of what has happened. If there has been absolutely no communication between the 1st school and Midwestern aside from having official transcripts sent, that might prompt your school's admin to contact Midwestern about this student.

 

[2TH MVR]

Well, this thief, err student will have plenty of fancy dental equipment at his disposal.

 

[allantois]

Meh Midwestern - aka the money laundering operation in so called “non-profit” education.

 

[amali]

Chances are they may have known a faculty/admissions committee member there. MWU AZ is know for having a "tight knit community."

 

[Cold Front]

I think all dismissals are not equal and would depend on which program made the decision to dismiss the student.

In my program (8 years ago), we had a school policy not to record instructors during a lecture. Some of the most competitive students ignored (or did not know) about this policy and recorded many lectures and shared the videos with some of their close friends. Eventually, group of other competitive classmates reported these videos to the instructors who were not of aware of them being recorded. Naturally, the instructors got very angry and recommended those involved in the recordings to be expelled from the school by the ethics committee. This happened during the 3rd year of dental school. In the end, the probationary committee voted to keep the students with a slap on their hand. I’m pretty sure this could have been handled differently at a different school - who might enforce same violations much harsher than my program.

Anyways, Midwestern probably took the students the OP mentioned with many conditions.... repeating a year (over $100k cost), additional steps to improve their character and closely being monitored by a designated mentor... who knows, but Midwestern might have a more lenient policies than other programs. Again, not all programs approach violations the same way.

 

[schmoob]

Does action needed to be taken on our part as dentists to prevent individuals like this from harming patients? Should Midwestern University be held responsible for the type of students that are admitted into their program?

1. Absolutely not. There is undoubtedly more to this story. I agree that the behavior was absolutely unethical, but there was nothing mentioned about patient harm.
2. It seems appropriate action was taken by dismissing, but it is Midwesterns choice whether to give the student a second chance or not. The dismissing school doesnt really have a say in other admission committees.

You can have your opinions on the outcomes of this scenario, but It's not your responsibility to "fix" what you disagree with.

The first thing I would do is make sure the administration at your school is aware of what has happened. If there has been absolutely no communication between the 1st school and Midwestern aside from having official transcripts sent, that might prompt your school's admin to contact Midwestern about this student.

How is notifying admin that the dismissed student was accepted elsewhere anyone's responsibility? It's also not the dismissing schools responsibility to speak with admissions at MWU, they've said everything they had to say on the students transcript. After the dismissal, It is completely at Midwesterns discretion to admit or not.

 

[shulk]

It doesn't have to be anyone's responsibility, no one is forcing anyone to do anything. However, if it was my articulator that had been stolen, I'd definitely want to make sure that my own school and Midwestern at least knew about it. I'd take it that far.

 

[schmoob]

It doesn't have to be anyone's responsibility, no one is forcing anyone to do anything. However, if it was my articulator that had been stolen, I'd definitely want to make sure that my own school and Midwestern at least knew about it. I'd take it that far.

That would make you feel better? That you did your part in making sure this student never receives their DDS/DMD? Vigilantism is not the right response.
If you do such a thing, don't be surprised if you receive a Notice of Representation from the student's attorney notifying that they will be filing a harassment suit.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

That would make you feel better? That you did your part in making sure this student never receives their DDS/DMD? Vigilantism is not the right response.
If you do such a thing, don't be surprised if you receive a Notice of Representation from the student's attorney notifying that they will be filing a harassment suit.

Like the saying goes, @schmoob, there’s only one thief in the Navy — everyone else is just trying to get their stuff back. For all we know, this applies to dental school as well.

Big Hoss

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

And OP, having to pay Midwestern’s tuition is punishment enough for this individual.

#gotothecheapestschoolyougetinto

Sorry, had to throw that in there.

Big Hoss

 

[allantois]

That would make you feel better? That you did your part in making sure this student never receives their DDS/DMD? Vigilantism is not the right response.
If you do such a thing, don't be surprised if you receive a Notice of Representation from the student's attorney notifying that they will be filing a harassment suit.

That’s right graduating some dishonest schmuck is the right response

 

[setdoc7]

You would be surprised how some schools accept transfers without any real communication with the first school. No verification of letters, no verification of transcripts or board scores. You would be surprised how much damage can be done with an unscrupulous mind and a laser printer.

 

[lemoncurry]

You would be surprised how some schools accept transfers without any real communication with the first school. No verification of letters, no verification of transcripts or board scores. You would be surprised how much damage can be done with an unscrupulous mind and a laser printer.

This isn't what I would consider a transfer, however. Hell, I don't even know what process a person would have to go through to get accepted to another dental program after being expelled from one. Do they have to go through AADSAS and all that?

 

[Tootyfruity]

Sdn is surprisingly tolerant of some weird ---

 

[971565]

Midwestern struggles to fill its class which is why they accept virtually everyone - I know several people who got accepted there with 17AA and a low gpa. Not to mention their ridiculously high cost which increases 4-7% each year. Someone probably failed out and they were able to squeeze out another 200k+

 

[setdoc7]

The incident I am thinking of did not involve Midwestern. Although I cannot mention the schools, it was clear that an expelled student from one school gained transfer admission to another with altered and false credentials. Things like this have been going on for years. In another case, my room mate in D school failed out of one school after a year, and just went to another the next year. His friends knew what was going on, but I doubt administration did.

 

[2TH MVR]

my room mate in D school failed out of one school after a year, and just went to another the next year. His friends knew what was going on, but I doubt administration did.

I mentioned it in another few threads, but I had a similar situation. My room mate failed after D1. We both attended a relatively inexpensive, small class size midwestern DS. The next year .... he told me he was going to the "other" PRIVATE DS in a nearby city. Did that school just happen to have a spot open? Our class lost 3-4 students. None of those spots were filled. He was a resident of that state. Maybe that helped. We still keep in touch. He is a dentist just like myself. He did tell me that the tuition for the private DS was almost double what he originally paid at the 1st state DS.

 

[971565]

The incident I am thinking of did not involve Midwestern. Although I cannot mention the schools, it was clear that an expelled student from one school gained transfer admission to another with altered and false credentials. Things like this have been going on for years. In another case, my room mate in D school failed out of one school after a year, and just went to another the next year. His friends knew what was going on, but I doubt administration did.

Wow, that's crazy.

 

[lwergod]

Most private dental colleges only care about filling seats with low quality students for the $$.

 

[dPseh]

Most private dental colleges only care about filling seats with low quality students for the $$.

Those are some triggering words.
What makes you say "low quality"? That's pretty offensive to the hundreds/thousands of current students and practicing dentists that graduated from a private school.

 

[lwergod]

Those are some triggering words.
What makes you say "low quality"? That's pretty offensive to the hundreds/thousands of current students and practicing dentists that graduated from a private school.

not at all.

when there are a hand full of private dental colleges whose class averages hover around 3.2-3.3 + 17-19aa(if Caribbean Med schools are criticized for similar reasons, then likewise, it's not too far-fetched to criticize dental schools for similar reasons as well) and have 200-400 seats (plus charge $500,000 tuition), then they should probably look into cutting the amount of seats they have. No self respecting dental/medical school would accept someone who should technically be a felon.

edit: and we should start criticizing those schools in the same light Caribbean schools are criticized. The only reason they are not criticized is because the NBDE is a pass/fail test. In comparison, the Step-1 is not a pass/fail test: the higher your score, the more likely you are to get into a desired residency. A lot of Caribbean students struggle to land into a residency program because of this-hence why people are more able to realize why it's a poor choice of school. Unfortunately, by nature, NBDE has to be a pass/fail test because not everyone specializes/does residency.

 

[Likkriue]

That would make you feel better? That you did your part in making sure this student never receives their DDS/DMD? Vigilantism is not the right response.
If you do such a thing, don't be surprised if you receive a Notice of Representation from the student's attorney notifying that they will be filing a harassment suit.

You want a thief treating your family?

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

You want a thief treating your family?

I really hate to say it, but admins have a vested interest in filling seats with butts. They need the tuition money. I reported instances of cheating that I saw happen in school. Was it frustrating to see nothing happen to these students? Absolutely. If I had the power would I have dismissed them? Absolutely. Do I think admins need to be more protective of the profession? Absolutely. Do I think you should go to the cheapest dental school you get into? Absolutely. And, there I go again...

Big Hoss

 

[setdoc7]

not at all.

when there are a hand full of private dental colleges whose class averages hover around 3.2-3.3 + 17-19aa(if Caribbean Med schools are criticized for similar reasons, then likewise, it's not too far-fetched to criticize dental schools for similar reasons as well) and have 200-400 seats (plus charge $500,000 tuition), then they should probably look into cutting the amount of seats they have. No self respecting dental/medical school would accept someone who should technically be a felon.

edit: and we should start criticizing those schools in the same light Caribbean schools are criticized. The only reason they are not criticized is because the NBDE is a pass/fail test. In comparison, the Step-1 is not a pass/fail test: the higher your score, the more likely you are to get into a desired residency. A lot of Caribbean students struggle to land into a residency program because of this-hence why people are more able to realize why it's a poor choice of school. Unfortunately, by nature, NBDE has to be a pass/fail test because not everyone specializes/does residency.

The reason The NBDE, soon to be INBDE is P/F has nothing to do with whether students go on to post graduate education or not. Step 1 and the NBDE have nothing in common. I would not spout misinformation. Further, it appears you are not in dental school yet. I would not bash any school for any reason. You never know where you might wind up.
I would also leave the Caribbean med schools alone. If they served no function, they would be closed. Clearly, they fill a gap.
And as a pre dent, you are in no position whatsoever to gauge the quality of a dental school, or it's graduates. Your self reported stats are no big deal, as hundreds, if not thousands of applicants have them. Stick to what you know,, and leave dental education, admissions, and clinical care to the professionals for right now.

 

[dPseh]

not at all.

when there are a hand full of private dental colleges whose class averages hover around 3.2-3.3 + 17-19aa(if Caribbean Med schools are criticized for similar reasons, then likewise, it's not too far-fetched to criticize dental schools for similar reasons as well) and have 200-400 seats (plus charge $500,000 tuition), then they should probably look into cutting the amount of seats they have. No self respecting dental/medical school would accept someone who should technically be a felon.

edit: and we should start criticizing those schools in the same light Caribbean schools are criticized. The only reason they are not criticized is because the NBDE is a pass/fail test. In comparison, the Step-1 is not a pass/fail test: the higher your score, the more likely you are to get into a desired residency. A lot of Caribbean students struggle to land into a residency program because of this-hence why people are more able to realize why it's a poor choice of school. Unfortunately, by nature, NBDE has to be a pass/fail test because not everyone specializes/does residency.

I would actually equate the lower GPA/DAT acceptance for some private schools vs slightly higher scores for public schools to the numbers of MD vs DO (if there should be any comparison between med/dent admissions at all). So are you also saying students accepted into DO programs are "low quality students" (DO stats are historically lower than MD stats)? They wouldn't be happy to hear that.
And IIRC, most Caribbean med schools accept anyone with a pulse, with a tanked sub 3.0 GPA and no MCAT score. They don't care and they drop anyone that can't make it past Step 1 as long as they get the $$. Private dental schools, even the "worst" ones doubtfully accept anyone with an awful GPA and DAT score, and at least they care enough to WANT you to pass the NBDE.
There is also more to landing a residency as a med school grad than just a high Step 1/2 score. Even the highest scoring Caribbean MD grad will have trouble landing a decent US residency. Then again, so do DO grads (if they want to match into something like derm or plastics). It's the stigma associated with where the student is coming from, not necessarily the Step 1/2 score. In terms of trying to relate that to the NBDE, why should we revert back to scored NBDE...? The only time this would matter is IF the dental grad wants to apply to a post-grad program. Even then, I'm not 100% if schools release raw NBDE scores to post-grad programs to assist in candidate selection (I didn't apply, I wouldn't know).
The majority of dental grads go straight into practice, NOT into a mandatory residency where academic performance in school/tests can dictate what type of physician you will be. Ergo, it only matters that you're competent enough to practice dentistry.

It's been a while since I applied, but I don't remember any private school, outside Howard, with an avg DAT score below 20AA. Have things changed that much?

I definitely agree with you in that no self respecting professional school should accept someone with a bad rap sheet. Not sure what happened at MW-AZ in this particular case, and I'm with everyone that says this student should not have been accepted again. I'm not in a place to make that call though.
The excessive amount of seats at some of these private schools is also a concern, but that's a different issue.
Obviously schools want to fill their seats for more money, but I'm sure they care *a little* about the academic prowess of their students. I don't think your future practicing colleagues attending some of these private schools would take kindly to you thinking, "Oh, you went to Private School X, you must have been a low quality student."

(For the record, I went to a public school.)

 

[lwergod]

The reason The NBDE, soon to be INBDE is P/F has nothing to do with whether students go on to post graduate education or not. Step 1 and the NBDE have nothing in common. I would not spout misinformation. Further, it appears you are not in dental school yet. I would not bash any school for any reason. You never know where you might wind up.

1. I think you failed to parse my argument regarding NBDE vs Step-1. I never said the two tests were similar in any shape or form. The med school equivalent of the NBDE test is obviously step-1, that is, they both function as a rite of passage in obtaining licensure (this is no way saying they are similar examinations). All med students must attend a residency, thus to go your desired program you must do exceedingly well on Step-1. When low tier schools have graduates who fail to land into any residency program (or only primary care), then that should be a red flag for that school. If med school was the endpoint (no residency was required), then step-1 would be a I/0 test. This would reduce the difficulty in obtaining licensure, and by extension, lowering awareness regarding that school's success/failures in its graduates.


2. gate-keeping.... who I am personally should not make my arguments less valid.

 

[setdoc7]

1. I think you failed to parse my argument regarding NBDE vs Step-1. I never said the two tests were similar in any shape or form. The med school equivalent of the NBDE test is obviously step-1, that is, they both function as a rite of passage in obtaining licensure (this is no way saying they are similar examinations). All med students must attend a residency, thus to go your desired program you must do exceedingly well on Step-1. When low tier schools have graduates who fail to land into any residency program (or only primary care), then that should be a red flag for that school. If med school was the endpoint (no residency was required), then step-1 would be a I/0 test. This would reduce the difficulty in obtaining licensure, and by extension, lowering awareness regarding that school's success/failures in its graduates.


2. gate-keeping.... who I am personally should not make my arguments less valid.

Nothing personal here, but IMHO, clearly you have neither the background or expertise to make the judgments you have posted.

 

[hellopeople]

Lol. Is that for real? I guess that's a creative way for the school to patch up a hole made in their class by some student leaving.
No more lost revenue.
You'd think there was no way to prevent the loss at that point (aside from holding another student back) considering you can't have a third year student who never went through years 1 and 2. But there you go, just take on a student rejected from another school.

 

[Streax1]

I feel like there may be more to this story than is being assumed. International dentists are constantly applying to any school that will take them for D3/D4 years. There's gotta be more to it than not having any options other than to accept this one transfer applicant to recoup lost revenue.

 

[Kenshin_Med]

Stealing from students now that's a shame...


Stealing from an overpriced school hmm...


I don't tolerate stealing though