"Expensive" Schools

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TheBoneDoctah

TheBoneDoctah

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I was looking through the different tuition rates that D.O. schools have. What would someone consider an "expensive" school? I live in California, so I don't have any in-state schools that are public (yielding lower tuition). I've noticed most schools are between 42k-45k a year. Is this considered "expensive?" It also doesn't look like the difference in tuition is much different between OOS MD and OOS DO.

The reason I am asking is because I don't want to be in debt my whole life. I want to be a doctor because I love medicine and working with people and I honestly don't know what else I would want to do with my life. However, I was reading somewhere on this site that D.O. grads are graduating with over $350k in debt. That's insane! In your opinion, would a doctor who is specialized (say in radiology or EM, my top two choices) have trouble paying that back and actually having a life (house, car, travel money)? I am most definitely NOT in this for the money as I know that doctors get don't make a TON of money, but putting so much time and effort into something, I kinda want to feel like I will live comfortably after I am finished. I just don't want to finish residency when I am 35 and then have to live in an apartment for years on end because I went to an "expensive" school. Please let me know your thoughts on this. Thanks!

P.S. Before anyone posts saying "you shouldn't be worried about money if your heart is in it" or something of that nature, I already know that, and I DO wanna be a doctor.
 
Private DO = Private MD in terms of costs. Since youll be applying out of state to medical schools, OOS MD, Private MD, and OOS/Private DO schools are all pretty expensive but there is a wide range. The middle is about 42k a year. Add about 20k for living expense and your looking at about 62k a year which equates to 248k at the end of the 4 years. Most students who have over 350k of debt (or even 300k) went to a school that costs over 50k a semester or had a family that required extra loan money or had leftover loans from undergraduate.

Although im not in medical school (yet), from speaking to many physicians, both DO and MD, as long as you are smart with your money you will be able to live more than comfortably. As long as you dont buy a new Audi, a house, and have 3 kids the day after you graduate, you should be fine.

As far as paying off loans go, there are many hospitals here in the midwest who offer loan forgiveness plans (you sign a contract to work for them for about 5-10 years and they pay your loan off as well as pay salary)

All in all, the answer to your original question is no. 42k is about middle of the road. there are DO schools that cost less than that though so try applying there. good luck!
 
dinnydindin said:
Private DO = Private MD in terms of costs. Since youll be applying out of state to medical schools, OOS MD, Private MD, and OOS/Private DO schools are all pretty expensive but there is a wide range. The middle is about 42k a year. Add about 20k for living expense and your looking at about 62k a year which equates to 248k at the end of the 4 years. Most students who have over 350k of debt (or even 300k) went to a school that costs over 50k a semester or had a family that required extra loan money or had leftover loans from undergraduate.

Although im not in medical school (yet), from speaking to many physicians, both DO and MD, as long as you are smart with your money you will be able to live more than comfortably. As long as you dont buy a new Audi, a house, and have 3 kids the day after you graduate, you should be fine.

As far as paying off loans go, there are many hospitals here in the midwest who offer loan forgiveness plans (you sign a contract to work for them for about 5-10 years and they pay your loan off as well as pay salary)

All in all, the answer to your original question is no. 42k is about middle of the road. there are DO schools that cost less than that though so try applying there. good luck!
Click to expand...

So if I don't wanna be in heaps of
Debts, what is the cap tuition I should be looking at? Also, would it be cheaper to go to AZCOM which has high tuition because of cheaper rent ect?
 
I would concentrate on getting IN to medical schools first, once you have multiple acceptances you can start playing this game. Recommendations are, of course, to keep it low if at all possible. I went to a more expensive DO school (because it was close to home) and have some serious debt. However, I'm not overly worried about it, if you live a low key lifestyle it's doable and it got me where I want to go.

Survivor DO
 
survivordo said:
I would concentrate on getting IN to medical schools first, once you have multiple acceptances you can start playing this game. Recommendations are, of course, to keep it low if at all possible. I went to a more expensive DO school (because it was close to home) and have some serious debt. However, I'm not overly worried about it, if you live a low key lifestyle it's doable and it got me where I want to go.

Survivor DO
Click to expand...

Right. But "low key" meaning what? Does that mean Im not
Gonna be able to do the things I want in life because of it?
 
survivordo said:
I would concentrate on getting IN to medical schools first, once you have multiple acceptances you can start playing this game. Recommendations are, of course, to keep it low if at all possible. I went to a more expensive DO school (because it was close to home) and have some serious debt. However, I'm not overly worried about it, if you live a low key lifestyle it's doable and it got me where I want to go.

Survivor DO
Click to expand...

Let me be more specific.What I mean is I have the kind of family and friends that like to go to the river, desert, camping and stuff like that. They have boats, toys, etc. Being a doctor, because of the debt, I feel as though I won't be free to do these kind of things because of finances.
 
SynapticDoctah said:
Right. But "low key" meaning what? Does that mean Im not
Gonna be able to do the things I want in life because of it?
Click to expand...

Not at all. You can still buy a home, albeit a single-wide trailer. You'll also be able to buy a nice used car from Craigslist. If travel is your thing, Greyhound is super cheap.
 
Carl Seitan said:
Not at all. You can still buy a home, albeit a single-wide trailer. You'll also be able to buy a nice used car from Craigslist. If travel is your thing, Greyhound is super cheap.
Click to expand...

Well now we know that if medicine doesn't work out for you, you can get a comedy gig.
 
Gotta make money somehow to pay off all that med school debt, mayng.
 
I posted this a little while ago. Figured if I just copied and pasted it'd give you an idea. If I can give you some numbers, it may make you sick, but may also make you realize that the daunting debt of medical school can be paid off quickly no matter the specialty you pursue. These are estimations but they should be pretty close. This does NOT account for the new changes in interest rates and how those will fluctuate over the next x amount of years.

Over my 4 years of med school I'll take out a total of $320K (accounting for average tuition increase of 3.8 percent per year the last 4 years and average yearly cost of living increase). Including interest that will equal approx. $390K upon completion of school. After graduation I will refinance my loans (several options) to about a 3% interest rate so it accumulates less interest during residency.

If I pay nothing during 4 years of residency then begin paying around 5k a month toward loans, I'll pay off my loans in 7-8 years after residency. Grand total equaling about $480K. (I have all the real numbers I calculated on a spreadsheet but I'm not looking at that now so some numbers may be off a bit.)

5K may seem like a lot but consider going from resident salary (40-50K pre-tax) to, let's say, $200K taxed at 40% you bring home $120K and put half of that to loans, you are still living off 15-20k more than you were during residency. 60k is a very reasonable amount to live off of for a few years. If you make, say, 400K, then set a budget to live off 100K and put the rest toward loans. Pay it off in 3 years!

The point of all this is that yes the debt sucks and its honestly terrifying, but it can be dealt with just fine if you are wise with your money. Others will choose minimum payments, some will choose hpsp, and some the nhsc. You'll figure out what works for you. No matter how expensive the school is that you choose, you will still be able to live a nice lifestyle (better than the majority of this country) even if you're throwing half your paycheck at loans for 5-10 years after residency. Got to live within your means!
 
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abolt18 said:
I posted this a little while ago. Figured if I just copied and pasted it'd give you an idea. If I can give you some numbers, it may make you sick, but may also make you realize that the daunting debt of medical school can be paid off quickly no matter the specialty you pursue. These are estimations but they should be pretty close. This does NOT account for the new changes in interest rates and how those will fluctuate over the next x amount of years.

Over my 4 years of med school I'll take out a total of $320K (accounting for average tuition increase of 3.8 percent per year the last 4 years and average yearly cost of living increase). Including interest that will equal approx. $390K upon completion of school. After graduation I will refinance my loans (several options) to about a 3% interest rate so it accumulates less interest during residency.

If I pay nothing during 4 years of residency then begin paying around 5k a month toward loans, I'll pay off my loans in 7-8 years after residency. Grand total equaling about $480K. (I have all the real numbers I calculated on a spreadsheet but I'm not looking at that now so some numbers may be off a bit.)

5K may seem like a lot but consider going from resident salary (40-50K pre-tax) to, let's say, $200K taxed at 40% you bring home $120K and put half of that to loans, you are still living off 15-20k more than you were during residency. 60k is a very reasonable amount to live off of for a few years. If you make, say, 400K, then set a budget to live off 100K and put the rest toward loans. Pay it off in 3 years!

The point of all this is that yes the debt sucks and its honestly terrifying, but it can be dealt with just fine if you are wise with your money. Others will choose minimum payments, some will choose hpsp, and some the nhsc. You'll figure out what works for you. No matter how expensive the school is that you choose, you will still be able to live a nice lifestyle (better than the majority of this country) even if you're throwing half your paycheck at loans for 5-10 years after residency. Got to live within your means!
Click to expand...

The posted "salaries" on websites I'm guessing are not "take home". So when it says radiology averages $350k a year, how much do you think the take home is?
 
abolt18 said:
I posted this a little while ago. Figured if I just copied and pasted it'd give you an idea. If I can give you some numbers, it may make you sick, but may also make you realize that the daunting debt of medical school can be paid off quickly no matter the specialty you pursue. These are estimations but they should be pretty close. This does NOT account for the new changes in interest rates and how those will fluctuate over the next x amount of years.

Over my 4 years of med school I'll take out a total of $320K (accounting for average tuition increase of 3.8 percent per year the last 4 years and average yearly cost of living increase). Including interest that will equal approx. $390K upon completion of school. After graduation I will refinance my loans (several options) to about a 3% interest rate so it accumulates less interest during residency.

If I pay nothing during 4 years of residency then begin paying around 5k a month toward loans, I'll pay off my loans in 7-8 years after residency. Grand total equaling about $480K. (I have all the real numbers I calculated on a spreadsheet but I'm not looking at that now so some numbers may be off a bit.)

5K may seem like a lot but consider going from resident salary (40-50K pre-tax) to, let's say, $200K taxed at 40% you bring home $120K and put half of that to loans, you are still living off 15-20k more than you were during residency. 60k is a very reasonable amount to live off of for a few years. If you make, say, 400K, then set a budget to live off 100K and put the rest toward loans. Pay it off in 3 years!

The point of all this is that yes the debt sucks and its honestly terrifying, but it can be dealt with just fine if you are wise with your money. Others will choose minimum payments, some will choose hpsp, and some the nhsc. You'll figure out what works for you. No matter how expensive the school is that you choose, you will still be able to live a nice lifestyle (better than the majority of this country) even if you're throwing half your paycheck at loans for 5-10 years after residency. Got to live within your means!
Click to expand...


Also, I see you went to KCOM (tuition is about 45k/year?). How would the living expenses in MO compare to say AZ? I would really love to go to an Arizona school because I will be close to family (San Diego, CA), but the Arizona schools are super pricey. I am wondering if the cheap living in Arizona would make up for the pricey tuition when compared across other schools.
 
SynapticDoctah said:
The posted "salaries" on websites I'm guessing are not "take home". So when it says radiology averages $350k a year, how much do you think the take home is?
Click to expand...
Currently, up to $388K is taxed at 33% federal. State will obviously depend on where you live and practice. So assume 350K, you take home 60% that's still $210K. If you can't live off that while paying off student loans, you're doing it wrong. Some people will pay well over a million bucks for their education because they make minimum payments forever on their loans. I plan to pay off as much as I can, as fast as I can. Faster that's done, the faster I'm not tied down to debt.
SynapticDoctah said:
Also, I see you went to KCOM (tuition is about 45k/year?). How would the living expenses in MO compare to say AZ? I would really love to go to an Arizona school because I will be close to family (San Diego, CA), but the Arizona schools are super pricey. I am wondering if the cheap living in Arizona would make up for the pricey tuition when compared across other schools.
Click to expand...

Couldn't tell you. SOMA is significantly less expensive than AZCOM. While the cost of rent and homes is low there, cost of utilities can be astounding (water and AC in the desert). I'd check www.city-data.com for some info on average rent cost, average incomes, etc and use trusty google to find out COL differences. Then just weigh it out. While I'm in a very inexpensive location, I'm maxing out my loans because me, my wife, and 1.5 babies are living off of it. Good luck figuring it out!

Oh and as a side note, while I'm very happy about attending KCOM, I sometimes wish I had applied to a few of the less expensive schools (like LECOM) because that would make an 80K difference.
 
abolt18 said:
5K may seem like a lot but consider going from resident salary (40-50K pre-tax) to, let's say, $200K taxed at 40% you bring home $120K and put half of that to loans, you are still living off 15-20k more than you were during residency. 60k is a very reasonable amount to live off of for a few years.
Click to expand...

Not to be a pedant, but a single person making $200k will take home around $150k, due to the way the tax brackets scale.
 
Carl Seitan said:
Not to be a pedant, but a single person making $200k will take home around $150k, due to the way the tax brackets scale.
Click to expand...

Oh probably. I've never looked at the tax brackets for single people because it simply never applied to me. Good catch!
 
abolt18 said:
Oh probably. I've never looked at the tax brackets for single people because it simply never applied to me. Good catch!
Click to expand...

Me either... yet. Your point still stands though.

My wife and I plan on living like residents for several years afterwards and pay those loans off ASAP.
 
That seems like the way to do it. Also, do you guys know if its possible to get positions in California as a DO? It seems to me like the philosophy is more of a east coast thing.
 
SynapticDoctah said:
That seems like the way to do it. Also, do you guys know if its possible to get positions in California as a DO? It seems to me like the philosophy is more of a east coast thing.
Click to expand...

Please stop saying DO is an "east coast thing" It simply isn't true. You can get a job in all 50 states as a DO without any issues or begging involved.
 
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SynapticDoctah said:
That seems like the way to do it. Also, do you guys know if its possible to get positions in California as a DO? It seems to me like the philosophy is more of a east coast thing.
Click to expand...

Nah, California has two DO schools and quite a few AOA residencies... including some in competitive fields like Neurosurgery and Ortho. It might be hard to crack the UC system for residency, but its been done.
 
Don't worry so much about the money. If you think you will be happy the rest of your life practicing medicine then do it! You will make enough money to pay back the loans. Will you be a millionaire by 30-35..no. Will you live comfortably..yes. First, get into and complete med school! That should be your only concern at this point.
 
Apply to lecom. Nuff said. Seriously; I've been accepted to a lecom and I have a hard time justifying any other DO school at this point, with 7 other interviews.
 
Last edited:
abolt18 said:
I posted this a little while ago. Figured if I just copied and pasted it'd give you an idea. If I can give you some numbers, it may make you sick, but may also make you realize that the daunting debt of medical school can be paid off quickly no matter the specialty you pursue. These are estimations but they should be pretty close. This does NOT account for the new changes in interest rates and how those will fluctuate over the next x amount of years.

Over my 4 years of med school I'll take out a total of $320K (accounting for average tuition increase of 3.8 percent per year the last 4 years and average yearly cost of living increase). Including interest that will equal approx. $390K upon completion of school. After graduation I will refinance my loans (several options) to about a 3% interest rate so it accumulates less interest during residency.

If I pay nothing during 4 years of residency then begin paying around 5k a month toward loans, I'll pay off my loans in 7-8 years after residency. Grand total equaling about $480K. (I have all the real numbers I calculated on a spreadsheet but I'm not looking at that now so some numbers may be off a bit.)

5K may seem like a lot but consider going from resident salary (40-50K pre-tax) to, let's say, $200K taxed at 40% you bring home $120K and put half of that to loans, you are still living off 15-20k more than you were during residency. 60k is a very reasonable amount to live off of for a few years. If you make, say, 400K, then set a budget to live off 100K and put the rest toward loans. Pay it off in 3 years!

The point of all this is that yes the debt sucks and its honestly terrifying, but it can be dealt with just fine if you are wise with your money. Others will choose minimum payments, some will choose hpsp, and some the nhsc. You'll figure out what works for you. No matter how expensive the school is that you choose, you will still be able to live a nice lifestyle (better than the majority of this country) even if you're throwing half your paycheck at loans for 5-10 years after residency. Got to live within your means!
Click to expand...

I, too, am projecting to spend 320K on medical school education. After adding interests and undergrad debt, I will owe ~460K. I'm scared. I can't deny it, but I would rather endure the financial "temporary" financial pain rather than a lifetime in misery for not pursuing what I love.

You mentioned the ability to refinance. I'm wondering why not IBR?

Also, I agree with Carl Seitan. Your post tax take on a 200K income should be close to 150K. In fact, I did the calculations assuming a family of 4 and found that the take home income would be 141K, for someone living in CA.
 
SynapticDoctah said:
Can you apply to all 3? Do you know the average GPA and Mcat off
The top of your head?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure of the answer to both of your questions. I know that you can apply to eerie and Bradenton, and I think average mcat/GPA is listed on their website.
 
SynapticDoctah said:
Can you apply to all 3? Do you know the average GPA and Mcat off
The top of your head?
Click to expand...

Yes. Applying to Erie lets you choose either Erie or Seton Hill if you want to do PBL. Bradenton has a separate app. That said, you can only be accepted into 2 campuses, Erie/Seton Hill or Bradenton. You can't be accepted into both Erie and Seton Hill.

From what I remember, stats for the entering class are a little bit above DO averages for all matriculants, so around 3.4-3.5 GPA and 27-28 MCATs. I believe the LECOM-B averages are a bit higher (higher end of range) than Erie/Seton Hill (lower end of range), but not by much.

Tuition is a huge draw. Its like the cheapest private medical school in the country. They also have pretty nice board pass rates (Bradenton is regularly in the mid 90s percentage wise for Level 1 pass rates, and Erie/Seton Hill are consistently in the low to mid 90s - Seton Hill class of 2015 just had 100% pass rate for Level 1).

Just make sure you like the environment and the rules before you make the decision to attend. If you hate the location, weather, dress code, mandatory attendance, assigned seating, or inability to eat or drink anywhere on campus (outside of the cafeteria), then it may be a tough couple years. Seton Hill probably gets the most break from these rules due to being on an undergrad campus and Bradenton has the pro of being in FL.
 
SynapticDoctah said:
I was looking through the different tuition rates that D.O. schools have. What would someone consider an "expensive" school? I live in California, so I don't have any in-state schools that are public (yielding lower tuition). I've noticed most schools are between 42k-45k a year. Is this considered "expensive?" It also doesn't look like the difference in tuition is much different between OOS MD and OOS DO.

The reason I am asking is because I don't want to be in debt my whole life. I want to be a doctor because I love medicine and working with people and I honestly don't know what else I would want to do with my life. However, I was reading somewhere on this site that D.O. grads are graduating with over $350k in debt. That's insane! In your opinion, would a doctor who is specialized (say in radiology or EM, my top two choices) have trouble paying that back and actually having a life (house, car, travel money)? I am most definitely NOT in this for the money as I know that doctors get don't make a TON of money, but putting so much time and effort into something, I kinda want to feel like I will live comfortably after I am finished. I just don't want to finish residency when I am 35 and then have to live in an apartment for years on end because I went to an "expensive" school. Please let me know your thoughts on this. Thanks!

P.S. Before anyone posts saying "you shouldn't be worried about money if your heart is in it" or something of that nature, I already know that, and I DO wanna be a doctor.
Click to expand...

You are thinking about it all wrong. This is an investment and just like when someone starts a business, you need to realize that for the first few years, you are going to be poor. If you graduate, don't make huge adjustments to your lifestyle and continue to live lean, you can pay back your investment within a few years. That's better than most businesses. What other profession can you come close to making the amount of your investment in the first year of business...not many. Stop worrying about the debt, get into medical school, and know that your salary mixed with a responsible budget will easily pay back your initial investment.
 
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