facing dismissal

[Bones DO]

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Yes, let's kick him while he's down!


I agree with slicks quote. If I was in that position Id use whatever I had to leverage myself back into a school. If it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen but lets not pretend that you care about anyones situation but your own, so please stop being a piece of ****

👍

 

[Bones DO]

Poop. My man. It's med school. You must have standards, and the default position should always be in favor of future patients. Period.

All I've heard Slick do is make excuses, and I hate when people make excuses.

Saying you didn't bomb any classes, only failed by a couple of percentage points means nothing. It's like saying you didn't chop off anyone's head, you just killed them by making a small drug error. No biggie, right?

And if you want anyone to be sympathetic towards your cause, you don't flippantly say you'll milk what may or may not be a LD for all it's worth.

Maybe Slick does have an LD, but to be honest, I doubt the entire suggestion of a LD in this case. Saying that the reason you failed out is that you have problems memorizing spoken language is laughable. Really. There's more than one way to skin a cat. Powerpoints, note services, and text books can more than supplement any deficiency in auditory processing. I'm sure his medical school is quite aware of this, and it may the reason for the dismissal.

It sounds more like Slick couldn't handle med school. And that's fine. Like others have said, it's not an innate skill. There's no shame in failing out of medical school. There is shame, however, in not being honest with yourself.

An integral part of an honest evaluation of failure involves the recognition / citation of valid reasons and causes. In order to correct a problem, one must first identify what the problem is, or what the underlying cause is. To one not involved in this type of situation, it can often come off as simple excuse making when all the person is doing is looking for viable solutions.

 

[Bones DO]

so slick, when patients talk to you, are you going to have trouble processing what they say? Perhaps a powerpoint practice with a note taking service? Agree with chrisknight, you may have an LD (which is nothing to be ashamed of), but if you cannot process auditory information, medicine is probably not your bag. Medical training is not "everybody gets a trophy day." If you repeatedly fail to meet standards, you need to be culled.

Agreed, but why not give him a 2nd chance now that he knows about the LD and will have a chance to address it?

 

[Bones DO]

I never said that I cannot fully process auditory information. I do struggle with oral interaction, but i have learned to compensate to some degree.

I know little about LD's is there treatment available that will sharpen your ability to process auditory information? Perhaps that you could do in the meantime while reapplying, so when you start over you're more ready?

 

[bigDinLV]

I had major problems with the lectures in school, I just couldn't hear them no matter how hard I tried. You know, because I never went to class. I did well in school also.

Proof that you don't need to be able to comprehend spoken lecture? Maybe.

 

[homeboy]

Agreed, but why not give him a 2nd chance now that he knows about the LD and will have a chance to address it?

Set phasers to 'stunned'...what part of the conversation has been lacking that you'd repeat this rhetorical question?

As has been repeated ad nauseum, what's the difference between being diagnosed with a LD at age 23 (or whatever your first year of med school is) and failing out on your own accord? A doctor's note?
A bonafide piece of paper stating you couldn't pass the class because you couldn't learn the material?

Again: It's not like passing medical school is an innate ability and failing out means you have a deficiency.

What's the difference between failing out because of a "learning disability" and failing out because you simply couldn't pass the courses, despite your hard work? ...or does everyone who puts their heart into medical school only to fail have a "learning disability"?

A "learning disability" implies a deficiency in "learning"...isn't that what prevents most people (who would otherwise attend were it not for their grades/scores/etc) from going to medical school? Not being able to complete the required coursework to the standard?

At what point do the requirements of the job/training trump the inability of the participants to succeed?

I'm all for second chances, but realizing only after failing out that perhaps you need to try a different approach [ ie: "With my new information, I would attack medical school differently. I would not attend class, and receive written transcription of lectures." ] is a bit too '20/20 hindsight.'

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

.

 

[Bones DO]

Set phasers to 'stunned'...what part of the conversation has been lacking that you'd repeat this rhetorical question?

As has been repeated ad nauseum, what's the difference between being diagnosed with a LD at age 23 (or whatever your first year of med school is) and failing out on your own accord? A doctor's note?
A bonafide piece of paper stating you couldn't pass the class because you couldn't learn the material?

Again: It's not like passing medical school is an innate ability and failing out means you have a deficiency.

What's the difference between failing out because of a "learning disability" and failing out because you simply couldn't pass the courses, despite your hard work? ...or does everyone who puts their heart into medical school only to fail have a "learning disability"?

A "learning disability" implies a deficiency in "learning"...isn't that what prevents most people (who would otherwise attend were it not for their grades/scores/etc) from going to medical school? Not being able to complete the required coursework to the standard?

At what point do the requirements of the job/training trump the inability of the participants to succeed?

I'm all for second chances, but realizing only after failing out that perhaps you need to try a different approach [ ie: "With my new information, I would attack medical school differently. I would not attend class, and receive written transcription of lectures." ] is a bit too '20/20 hindsight.'

I didn't intend the question to be rhetorical. My understanding of the difference was that having a LD is something that is treatable / fixable. If doing something as simple as adjusting the approach would result in a different outcome, why not do it?

I'm in no way advocating the lowering of standards, rather offering encouragement to someone in a crumby situation. I know that some people use fake LD's as excuses in life, but I'm not above giving the benefit of the doubt on a forum like this. My hope is that piece of paper constitutes a real diagnosis and therefore a treatable condition.

 

[Phosphorus Ylide]

I was unaware of my learning issues prior to being tested. With my new information, I would attack medical school differently. I would not attend class, and receive written transcription of lectures. Granted, I don't know if this new plan of attack would change the outcome of my struggles in medical school, but it would give me the best chance at success.

I basically didn't like the way my school handled the situation. I wish I would have had this testing prior to me being dismissed.

How come you didn't seek help sooner? If you sought help early on when you first started failing classes, do you think your school would have worked with you then?

 

[slick27]

How come you didn't seek help sooner? If you sought help early on when you first started failing classes, do you think your school would have worked with you then?

You would think?

I didn't receive any help from my school. I could not recommend my school to anyone. They basically didn't handle the situation. Granted, this is medical school and the student should be ultimately responsible

 

[Just Joshin]

How come you didn't seek help sooner? If you sought help early on when you first started failing classes, do you think your school would have worked with you then?

I can't speak about this poster's situation, but I have a friend who was an MS-1 this year. She sought help the moment she began failing tests which was pretty early on. She must have bugged everyone from professors to advisors to counselors. She ended up being dismissed, but she won her appeal and was re-instated and she thinks the reason is that she sought help from the start. I'm not a med student yet, but I think that's an important lesson. If you're failing, get help right away. Don't wait until you're close to flunking out before reaching out.

 

[slick27]

well at my school the appeal process is just a formality. They couldn't even remember the last time a dismissal was overturned.

 

[Just Joshin]

That's what my friend said too. Everyone told her it was useless and that they never overturn a dismissal. You never really know. If you have a strong enough case, you might be able to convince them.

 

[TerrifiedX1000]

Well, I gotta say we have some special people here who life must have gone perfectly for. 😉 Look, I'm not the best in my class, and I just finished second year, but my school has a guy hired to help everyone learn how to study, and he gets you learning disability tested if he thinks you may have an undiagnosed problem. So our school specifically acknowledges that learning disabilities do exist and don't show up til medical school and they try to help you with it. So, it sounds like you got the shaft. I'm sorry about that.

Also, I didn't learn to read until I was 11 years old. I was homeschooled so my Mom had no idea to get me tested for disabilities, and I never have been tested. But I have learned to deal with the way I learn, and focus on studying productively and so far I have been ok...kinda nervous about the COMLEX on monday though! I think if you are willing to make those changes, you should find a school that accepts you the way you are. You can do this. But don't say things like "who knows if I really have a LD." I am sure it was said out of frustration earlier, but it doesn't come across well...at all. Good luck!!

 

[LurkerDO]

Well, I gotta say we have some special people here who life must have gone perfectly for.

+100.

It warms my heart to see how many people never needed a second chance at anything, or any help.

 

[ChrisKnight]

I'm all for second chances, believe me. I've been there.

But, why do they have to come from an outside source? How many second chances were missed due to a lack of introspection? How many other controllable factors also contributed to failing grades? We'll never know.

And, come on guys. What's with the whole good versus evil routine? The few who agree with me are really not beating someone who's already down. It's tough love. It's a challenge. He's proved he can fail out of med school. Now he has to prove he can hang with the big dogs. Overcoming the supposed LD is the first step, but it's not the last step. Learning to be introspective, to be patient, to predict complications, to be flexible, and to ask for help early will prove vital for his success.

Good luck to the OP. You've got a long and hard road ahead of you. But, so did this guy. 😉

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7318398

 

[Gabby]

It's tough love. It's a challenge. He's proved he can fail out of med school. Now he has to prove he can hang with the big dogs.

That's the biggest bunch of crap I've heard in a long time. He doesn't have to prove anything to you and nothing I've read here constitutes tough love. It's about you and others believing the OP was rightfully dismissed. That's fine. You're allowed to think that and express it. But let's not pretend it's something other than what it is.

 

[singinfifi]

I'm all for second chances, believe me. I've been there.

But, why do they have to come from an outside source? How many second chances were missed due to a lack of introspection? How many other controllable factors also contributed to failing grades? We'll never know.

And, come on guys. What's with the whole good versus evil routine? The few who agree with me are really not beating someone who's already down. It's tough love. It's a challenge. He's proved he can fail out of med school. Now he has to prove he can hang with the big dogs. Overcoming the supposed LD is the first step, but it's not the last step. Learning to be introspective, to be patient, to predict complications, to be flexible, and to ask for help early will prove vital for his success.

Good luck to the OP. You've got a long and hard road ahead of you. But, so did this guy. 😉

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7318398

I'm not sure your example is the best one to support your POV...that fella (as amazing as that is, and good for him) needed a lot of outside assistance/special learning devices.

Saying "find another path in life" isn't a challenge. It's saying to quit and go do something else (which is also a perfectly valid choice might I add). I can't wrap my head around what is so offensive about someone wanting a second try at medical school to some people.

 

[Gabby]

If the OP truly has a LD and need to change learning styles, etc. to help get through med school that's fine. However, if this LD prevents him from fully comprehending duirng 3rd and 4th year rotations what then? Should they get a special exception there. This is unfortunately a slippery slope and I think the medical school does have to decide if this student can not only finish their coursework but be a competent physician able to fullfill all of the skills needed. If not, maybe med school is not the right place.

Let's not forget the OP managed to get through undergrad with a high GPA. I'm not saying that 3rd and 4th years are easier than 1st and 2nd years, but I think it's a different kind of learning. If the OP's problem is auditory processing during lecture, there are ways around that during the first two years. During 3rd and 4th, there's nothing to suggest he can't pick up on what patients are saying. He obviously managed to get this far. I think it's more a result of the information overload during four hours of lecture each day than anything else that it threw his LD out of whack.

 

[ChrisKnight]

That's the biggest bunch of crap I've heard in a long time. He doesn't have to prove anything to you and nothing I've read here constitutes tough love. It's about you and others believing the OP was rightfully dismissed. That's fine. You're allowed to think that and express it. But let's not pretend it's something other than what it is.

He doesn't have to prove anything to me. But, he must prove that he can succeed to his medical school. There's no getting around that.

This isn't T-ball where everyone gets a trophy just for trying. This is the major leagues where if your best isn't good enough, you get cut. Yeah you were a star in college, but now the ball is coming at you 95 MPH. Maybe it's just too fast for you to hit. Maybe you were choking up on the bat a little too high. Maybe you had trouble remembering the third base coach's signs. Only until you hone your skills in the minors, and prove your worth, should you be redrafted.

Failing multiple courses = Rightfully dismissed. End of story. It doesn't matter if there is an LD or not.

The questions to be asked now are: What services/counseling is available? What techniques can be used to overcome the LD? And most importantly, do they work? And if not, what other factors aren't being considered?

I think this is where most of the disagreement comes from. There are those who are willing to accept the LD as the sole reason for failure. And, then there are those of us who ask, "Where's the proof?". Could there be other reasons for failure, in addition to the supposed LD?

I think it would be gross negligence not to consider additional factors. And, to blindly accept the LD story, in this light, is cruel in my opinion. There's simply too much at stake.

And, medical school is not the place to experiment. It's too hard, there's too much pressure, and it's too expensive.

The ideal plan would be to enroll in a local undergrad, take a full load, and implement new study strategies. Figure out what works and what doesn't. And only after succeeding there should medical school be reconsidered.

 

[ChrisKnight]

I'm not sure your example is the best one to support your POV...that fella (as amazing as that is, and good for him) needed a lot of outside assistance/special learning devices.

Saying "find another path in life" isn't a challenge. It's saying to quit and go do something else (which is also a perfectly valid choice might I add). I can't wrap my head around what is so offensive about someone wanting a second try at medical school to some people.

I never said find another path in life. I suggested that medical school is difficult, and there's no shame in failing out.

The challenge I spoke of is an internal one. The OP deserves it to himself to question all facets of his academic approach, including but not limited to his LD, and then exhaust all possible strategies for overcoming any and all deficiencies found. Only then should a second chance at medical school be considered.

 

[futIDdoc]

You would think?

I didn't receive any help from my school. I could not recommend my school to anyone. They basically didn't handle the situation. Granted, this is medical school and the student should be ultimately responsible

And how did you help yourself? Every doc I talk to says almost the same thing that the most important skill you learn in your pre-clinical years is how to be a self learner. I can guarantee your dismissal committee is going to bring up two things. Why you failed (to which you will reply that you have an LD). They will then follow up with why it took so long for you to seek help for it.

 

[slick27]

+100.

It warms my heart to see how many people never needed a second chance at anything, or any help.

we'll see how far you get as a doctor without any help. Must be nice to not need a second chance. I wish I didn't.

 

[LurkerDO]

we'll see how far you get as a doctor without any help. Must be nice to not need a second chance. I wish I didn't.

Easy there slick, that was ABSOLUTELY sarcasm out the wazoo. Just to clarify.

I'm willing to bet that the same people who are saying "well, you couldn't hack it after one shot - you shouldn't be allowed to try again"/"at what point does the need to accommodate stop"/"could you be a flight attendant if you were scared of heights?" are the same folks who, if something went wrong for them (failed a class, failed a rotation, w/e) would be crying "foul" from the rooftops and asking for a "second chance 😱".

Why? because they, heck, ANYONE who has made it this far, probably would feel (and I'm guessing rightly so) that they are inherently capable and wouldn't' want to give up their dream because of one bump in the road. I *KNOW* I would. Now, don't misunderstand, fail 2 times at the same thing? Then I think there's a serious issue of "is medicine right for you" that needs to be examined, but
once? A second chance? I can't honestly find a problem with that.

Good luck - I hope you get your second chance.

 

[thepoopologist]

He doesn't have to prove anything to me. But, he must prove that he can succeed to his medical school. There's no getting around that.

This isn't T-ball where everyone gets a trophy just for trying. This is the major leagues where if your best isn't good enough, you get cut. Yeah you were a star in college, but now the ball is coming at you 95 MPH. Maybe it's just too fast for you to hit. Maybe you were choking up on the bat a little too high. Maybe you had trouble remembering the third base coach's signs. Only until you hone your skills in the minors, and prove your worth, should you be redrafted.

Failing multiple courses = Rightfully dismissed. End of story. It doesn't matter if there is an LD or not.

The questions to be asked now are: What services/counseling is available? What techniques can be used to overcome the LD? And most importantly, do they work? And if not, what other factors aren't being considered?

I think this is where most of the disagreement comes from. There are those who are willing to accept the LD as the sole reason for failure. And, then there are those of us who ask, "Where's the proof?". Could there be other reasons for failure, in addition to the supposed LD?

I think it would be gross negligence not to consider additional factors. And, to blindly accept the LD story, in this light, is cruel in my opinion. There's simply too much at stake.

And, medical school is not the place to experiment. It's too hard, there's too much pressure, and it's too expensive.

The ideal plan would be to enroll in a local undergrad, take a full load, and implement new study strategies. Figure out what works and what doesn't. And only after succeeding there should medical school be reconsidered.

I understand the idea of adjusting and getting help before everything comes tumbling down, but sometimes matters cannot be resolved solely through self correction or introspection as you call it. How does a person know they have a learning disability, when theyve finished college with a 3.8. When does it strike a person, who was an excellent student in college, to find help when after the first few failures they think that it is only a matter of studying harder or doing this instead of that when in fact they need exact help on how to absorb and vomit out information.


Please dont refer to medical school as the major leagues. That is ****ing laughable. We are still in school and therefore still entitled to all the help we need when we are struggling. Just because YOU didnt struggle and someone else did doesnt mean that they arent as capable, especially since an adcom let them into a good school. It is far easier to take a Darwinian approach when you are doing fine and others are not but lets see what happens when it is your time to burn in the fire.


Excuse the lack of punctiation, Im typing on a ****ed up keyboard in Argentina.

 

[thepoopologist]

Anyways, playing devils advocate. Slick needs to decide whats best for him and not listen to some idiots on a message board. I think heĺl find another career when he is done trying with this one.

 

[Orthodoc40]

I'm always disappointed in the incredibly presumptive & inflexible judgments that people (mostly kids - yes, that's you, if you're under 30) make on these forums, about just about everything and everyone. As if everyone exists in order for them to judge worthy or not worthy. Who died and made you boss? Answer: no one made you boss, and thank heaven for that!

 

[slick27]

I can't speak about this poster's situation, but I have a friend who was an MS-1 this year. She sought help the moment she began failing tests which was pretty early on. She must have bugged everyone from professors to advisors to counselors. She ended up being dismissed, but she won her appeal and was re-instated and she thinks the reason is that she sought help from the start. I'm not a med student yet, but I think that's an important lesson. If you're failing, get help right away. Don't wait until you're close to flunking out before reaching out.

I sought help, I talked with counselors, I gave a reason for my failure, a plan to correct my academic struggles...basically everything that the appeal committee wanted. They still threw me out.

 

[Bones DO]

I sought help, I talked with counselors, I gave a reason for my failure, a plan to correct my academic struggles...basically everything that the appeal committee wanted. They still threw me out.

To hell with the committee. Address your weaknesses and start over elsewhere. Unless you don't want to. Up to you! Either way, screw the committee though. 🙂

 

[PinguPinktu]

I am always surprised by ppl's view on not memorizing in med sch. Yes, understanding the materials being taught is important. Yet, memorization important facts are equally important. The notion is not to chew on the notes in its entirety and regurgitate as you go; it is abt picking out important information that will help you have a solid grasp on the subject/concept. A lot of students don't do well because they assume as long as they understand the materials then everything is fine, but NO! If you just know enough materials to confuse yourself (because so many things are similar but one of them applies in one situation and not others) then comes exam time you will be debating with yourself btw answers and talk yourself out of the right answers.

OPs needs to know in a clinical setting there is very limited tolerance for mistakes and multiple failures. I sympathize with OPs situation but in this case, he needs to take sometime off doing something else and re-establish his confidence and study skills.

Regards

 

[slick27]

To hell with the committee. Address your weaknesses and start over elsewhere. Unless you don't want to. Up to you! Either way, screw the committee though. 🙂

How did you handle your application and interviews the second time around? I'm sure they asked you specific questions about your previous failure, how did you address/answer that question?

 

[Bones DO]

How did you handle your application and interviews the second time around? I'm sure they asked you specific questions about your previous failure, how did you address/answer that question?

The short answer is I was honest about my previous problems and confident about the course of action I was taking to resolve them. You can bet that 90% of any med school interview you get in the future will be spent talking about your dismissal, so you need to be ready to talk openly, and convince them that your issues are 100% addressed.

The long version of my 'story' can be found here: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=665422

 

[sKanKY hOe]

OP, a LOT of people in this thread seem to be concerned not with your inability to pass classes, but rather, whether or not you will be able to successfully see patients in the clinical setting. You said "I never said that I cannot fully process auditory information. I do struggle with oral interaction, but i have learned to compensate to some degree."

so my questions to you are these. If you answer them satisfactorily, i think you will make us all more relieved, more supportive of you, and probably give better advice as to how you might tackle your appeals & study methods

• How exactly do you "struggle with oral interaction", can you explain that further - ie. can you not read people's emotions well (i noticed you have difficulty noting sarcasm in some other posts)?
• Did you pass your doctoring class/OSCEs/whatever your school calls it? What sorts of criticism did you get on your pt interaction/SOAP note?
• Does your school have a scribe? you can request that next time, provided your school has one (usu they just pay one of your classmates to type up all the lectures and send it to you). Did you request one but still not pass despite using the material?

Finally, the first year of med school IS basically memorizing everything in the text/ppt whereas 2nd year has more info that requires synthesizing, so i'm having a hard time figuring out exactly where your difficulty lies if it truly is in listening comprhension. Name a few classes you didn't pass?

Please don't feel compelled to answer all questions if you find them too invasive. I only ask bc I personally think people will give better advice if you answer them.

 

[Dr Bartlet]

Finally, the first year of med school IS basically memorizing everything in the text/ppt whereas 2nd year has more info that requires synthesizing, so i'm having a hard time figuring out exactly where your difficulty lies if it truly is in listening comprhension. Name a few classes you didn't pass?

This depends on your school's curriculum. In a systems based curriculum, the entire two years could be synthesis.

 

[slick27]

.

 

[dozitgetchahi]

Highly doubt that. If an M1 fails, their school will not collect about 100-120k in tuition. They have every reason to keep capable individuals in school for the entire four years. As for the lawyer part, I am sure that during your orientation the dismissal policy was laid out to you in plain, matter of fact english, thus you knew the consequences of failing and probably have no real recourse. As for the "I was out of school for four years" excuse, HA! Me too bro, and I killed the M1 material because I knew what it was like to work. If anything being out for four years should have given you a distinct advantage by making you hungrier and more dedicated that your classmates.

This is a point I've tried to make for a while around here.

If a medical school dismisses/fails out/loses a student to "medical leaves" etc, it generally suffers because a) it will no longer get tuition money from said student and b) the seat that student held is likely to remain vacant because it is unlikely that any medical student from another school will be able to directly transfer into it. Thus, the school loses some of its operating revenue (always a concern in these tight times) and one of its slots in that particular graduating class will likely go unused (which in at least some sense is a "wasted opportunity" for the school to graduate another doctor). Furthermore, if the school is public and the failed student's tuition was partially subsidized by state or local grants, those go down the drain also.

Thus, it is really not in any medical school's best interest to dismiss students, and if they are forced to resort to doing so it'll be for a damn good reason.

That said, however, it sounds like my school would have handled your situation with remediation and/or course repeats.

 

[phospho]

This is a point I've tried to make for a while around here.

If a medical school dismisses/fails out/loses a student to "medical leaves" etc, it generally suffers because a) it will no longer get tuition money from said student and b) the seat that student held is likely to remain vacant because it is unlikely that any medical student from another school will be able to directly transfer into it. Thus, the school loses some of its operating revenue (always a concern in these tight times) and one of its slots in that particular graduating class will likely go unused (which in at least some sense is a "wasted opportunity" for the school to graduate another doctor). Furthermore, if the school is public and the failed student's tuition was partially subsidized by state or local grants, those go down the drain also.

Thus, it is really not in any medical school's best interest to dismiss students, and if they are forced to resort to doing so it'll be for a damn good reason.

That said, however, it sounds like my school would have handled your situation with remediation and/or course repeats.

I agree. When a medical school dismisses someone, it's always a last resort. I've heard of people repeating first year AND second year, and eventually graduating and matching into something. I guess it really depends on the school. I've never heard of anyone at my school being dismissed without being given the option to repeat first year.

 

[slick27]

I agree. When a medical school dismisses someone, it's always a last resort. I've heard of people repeating first year AND second year, and eventually graduating and matching into something. I guess it really depends on the school. I've never heard of anyone at my school being dismissed without being given the option to repeat first year.

Its not a last resort, its up holding a policy from the student handbook at your school. I agree that my academic performance was poor, but I don't agree with the dismissal. I believe my performance was poor because I was unable to master the game early enough. I could not find something that worked for me soon enough. My classmates were building cummulative knowledge that I could not make up. I wish I was given the opportunity to repeat the year, instead my schools simply discards students who have not figured out their studying yet.

 

[slick27]

This is a point I've tried to make for a while around here.

If a medical school dismisses/fails out/loses a student to "medical leaves" etc, it generally suffers because a) it will no longer get tuition money from said student and b) the seat that student held is likely to remain vacant because it is unlikely that any medical student from another school will be able to directly transfer into it. Thus, the school loses some of its operating revenue (always a concern in these tight times) and one of its slots in that particular graduating class will likely go unused (which in at least some sense is a "wasted opportunity" for the school to graduate another doctor). Furthermore, if the school is public and the failed student's tuition was partially subsidized by state or local grants, those go down the drain also.

Thus, it is really not in any medical school's best interest to dismiss students, and if they are forced to resort to doing so it'll be for a damn good reason.

That said, however, it sounds like my school would have handled your situation with remediation and/or course repeats.

I agree with this statement, but I also think that a medical school will realize that it will lose some students no matter there admission policy. I believe I read some where that at any given school it only expects to graduate about 95 percent of its class.

 

[slick27]

I also was unaware at my admission interviews to ask how often a school holds exams. After about the first month at my school I found out how important this question became to me. I would prefer one exam a week or one exam a month schedule. At my prior school, there would be several exams a week. It was really a draining process.

 

[slick27]

To hell with the committee. Address your weaknesses and start over elsewhere. Unless you don't want to. Up to you! Either way, screw the committee though. 🙂

Don't forget the school as well. Direct student focus, my a**. I didn't see any of it.

 

[phospho]

Its not a last resort, its up holding a policy from the student handbook at your school. I agree that my academic performance was poor, but I don't agree with the dismissal. I believe my performance was poor because I was unable to master the game early enough. I could not find something that worked for me soon enough. My classmates were building cummulative knowledge that I could not make up. I wish I was given the opportunity to repeat the year, instead my schools simply discards students who have not figured out their studying yet.

I'm really sorry about what you're going through. I can't and don't want to think what it's like to be you right now. I could very well be in your shoes, as it took me 2-3 months to master the game. Thankfully I didn't end up failing anything. My dean email me 2 months into starting and sat down with me. I constantly had a tutor. If I was awake, I had a bunch of 2nd year tutors waiting for me to email them to meet up (the school pays them by the hour).

Also, at the time the dean emailed me, he told me I'm not allowed to take any more exams till I knew what I was doing and had proven to him that I knew what I was doing. In retrospect, he was covering my ass. It's a shame that your school sold you out so quick. But, I also think that if there's a will, there's a way (so cliche, I know). You might just end up with a school that actually has your back. Because that alone meant the world to me at the time.

 

[futIDdoc]

I also was unaware at my admission interviews to ask how often a school holds exams. After about the first month at my school I found out how important this question became to me. I would prefer one exam a week or one exam a month schedule.

my schools simply discards students who have not figured out their studying yet.

Are you serious? You are blaming your failure on your school's exam policy? While I will grant a school's exam schedule may have a minor effect on stress levels and performance, I find it unfathomable that this is the reason for your failure. Second point. Your school is well within its rights to dismiss someone who hasn't figured out how to study after an entire academic year. Assuming you have 18 week semesters and put in 40 hrs a week, you had roughly 1440 hrs to 'figure out' how to study. Sorry you had so many problems in the past year, but it really sounds as if you have taken no ownership of your failure.

 

[dozitgetchahi]

Are you serious? You are blaming your failure on your school's exam policy? While I will grant a school's exam schedule may have a minor effect on stress levels and performance, I find it unfathomable that this is the reason for your failure. Second point. Your school is well within its rights to dismiss someone who hasn't figured out how to study after an entire academic year. Assuming you have 18 week semesters and put in 40 hrs a week, you had roughly 1440 hrs to 'figure out' how to study. Sorry you had so many problems in the past year, but it really sounds as if you have taken no ownership of your failure.

I agree with much of what was written here. Just a few points of constructive criticism:

1) The exam schedule at my school wasn't the way I'd have preferred it either. However, you've just gotta adapt to things like that. One of my biochem profs always used to stress that the most effective students in medical school were those who were capable of adapting best to new situations. If you can't do this, then what are you going to do when you're a third/fourth year or a resident?

2) Earlier in the thread you were pinning your academic issues on a diagnosed learning disability. Now, you're complaining about your last school's test schedule. Which one of these factors was actually causing your problems? Keep in mind that if you reapply and actually get interviews, you're going to have to be able to candidly discuss your problem with the adcoms and show them that you've rectified the issue. (BonesDO, for instance, appears to have done a terrific job of this.) Plus, I can't imagine the adcoms will take you seriously if your excuse is that you didn't like your last school's exam schedule.

3) I asked you much earlier in this thread what your study habits were. So...what were they? Did you try a number of different studying styles in an attempt to accommodate your disability? Did your school seriously not have any sort of tutoring, etc services available? UMDNJ-SOM, for instance, has an entire "Center for Teaching and Learning" that offers a variety of services to assist students that are having problems. Did you attempt to utilize any services like this at your school? Did anyone in the administration try to work with you earlier on once they saw you were having problems?

I believe in giving responsible people second chances, but you've got to be able to demonstrate to the adcoms that you actually deserve such an opportunity. If you haven't done so already, read up on how BonesDO did this - he did a tremendous job and was successful IMHO.

 

[EmersonAnne]

I agree. When a medical school dismisses someone, it's always a last resort. I've heard of people repeating first year AND second year, and eventually graduating and matching into something. I guess it really depends on the school. I've never heard of anyone at my school being dismissed without being given the option to repeat first year.

This is definitely school dependent. My school doesn't allow you to repeat first year. If you fail three blocks, you're dismissed. Unfortunately, there are three blocks by December, so a few of my first year classmates were dismissed before Christmas vacation. I don't think that's enough time to adjust to med school personally, but that's the school's policy.

 

[slick27]

I agree with the above.

 

[ShyRem]

If you fail half your first year it's almost impossible to catch up on that much information. I can see their point, but it would be nice to allow a retake of first year.

 

[EmersonAnne]

If you fail half your first year it's almost impossible to catch up on that much information. I can see their point, but it would be nice to allow a retake of first year.

I can see the point too, but I think a retake of first year is warranted. You start med school in August and you're out by the beginning of December? It doesn't seem like enough time, considering in order to get to med school, you've already proved you can handle a science curriculum in undergrad and taken the MCAT. It's not that these people are stupid who will never finish the program. They just need more help adjusting.

 

[ShyRem]

I am torn on this one. If someone can't adjust to med school by the end of the first half of the year, what makes one think they will adjust later? If you make them wait and retake first year later, is there any assurance they will adjust by the second half? By second year? I'm not talking about someone who fails one block, does well on the next two, fails the fourth, etc. They clearly CAN perform and have shown they can on some blocks. But someone who fails every block for the first half of the year... what in that scenario has shown the school they have the ability to adjust at all?

What I'm saying is, just because someone managed to get in to med school doesn't necessarily guarantee they are going to do well enough to graduate. An acceptance is not a guaranteed pass to graduate. And sometimes folks just never "adjust". Generally they withdraw/drop out voluntarily, but I do know a few who were dismissed. One I felt bad for as they had other personal reasons for their difficulties - they were since readmitted and have done quite well. Another has been in four different medical schools and has done terribly in all four. And is applying to yet a fifth. Another repeated the same year in med school THREE TIMES.

So how much "adjustment" time is too much? Certainly there has to be a line. But also certainly there should be a program to help students adjust if they are having difficulty and also a way to identify those students early. VERY early to help ensure their success.

 

[EmersonAnne]

I can't speak for other schools, but I can tell you that at my school, we have essentially four sections completed by mid-December. When I say sections, I'm not talking about individual classes. We're on a systems-based curriculum so everything is combined. If someone is having difficulty adjusting to, say, Anatomy, it's possible to fail two sections due to that one course because the practicals make up a percentage of your score especially in our second section which is nicknamed the "anatomy section."

I agree that there's no way to tell that the person will be able to adjust later, but I think that the first semester of med school is so different that many people need time to find their groove. Some have a tougher time than others. Some schools have a de-accelerated program for those struggling. Others allow you to finish first year and if you do poorly, they let you repeat it. I think those options are probably better.