Failed APPE Pharmacy Rotation

[Thepharmstudent111]

My point was, you'd avoid the situation completely if you DID ask. Otherwise, you can talk to the school ( said that earlier), but beware of how you come across in that conversation or it'll look poorly on you and it may give unwanted credibility to the preceptor.

I gave them the r

My point was, you'd avoid the situation completely if you DID ask. Otherwise, you can talk to the school ( said that earlier), but beware of how you come across in that conversation or it'll look poorly on you and it may give unwanted credibility to the preceptor.

I already gave the appe coordinator the concerning note in regards to the preceptor. I am the type of student where I know if something was not right, I have the right to talk to the coordinator after finishing the rotation and not going back to my site again. Everything was taken care of in the best way possible and they knew I was honest. They are also now monitoring me throughout the rest of the rotation to make sure I am doing alright. Since it is only one failed rotation and since happened toward the beginning of rotations, they will look at everything in and out if anything happens again. Because they will review my transcript and the rest of the rotation performances if the situation happens again. We are almost halfway done, so they will then see that I am not having any issue with my other rotations and that I am in good academic standing. Also, I will make sure that even if the midpoint eval is not done at midpoint, I will ask what is my grade right at this moment. I will say once graduation comes, there will be no looking back for me, haha!

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[Deja]

I never thought I would get into pharmacy school my first time applying. I had a 2.75 and an 43 pcat score when applying and got in.

Jesus is this what pharmacy school standards has come to lol
also seems like your school admits a lot of unqualified students as you said preceptors are refusing students from your school due to lack of knowledge and for behavior reasons

I was on your side when you first made this post, but I can kind of see why you were being micromanaged after reading the way you have responded so far and from the experiences I had as a preceptor

either way, this is behind you, good luck

 

[CetiAlphaFive]

Big surprise

 

[BidingMyTime]

Hello BidingTime, it’s not really having to do with failing students. Some preceptors didn’t like it when students don’t show up or misbehave on rotation. Also another is being able to have the knowledge, but not being able to apply it in a clinical way. There might be some things that students may not know that they might have to look things up. Or there is even information that students have to know before coming on rotation. Our Naplex scores have been in the 70s in the past but have gone slightly lower, but hoping with all the changes it will go up.

Wow, passing rate in the 70's for NAPLEX is very low. There are definitely problems with how the education you are getting at the school, and that is undoubtedly affecting students grades on the APPE's. How could it not? Of course students won't know everything, but if they are having to look up everything and/or looking up common stuff, that is a problem. Also, applying things does have to be learned, but the school should be teaching the basics of that as well, if students don't know how to apply anything, that is a problem with the school. And to some extent, even students not showing up on time or misbehaving, has the school stressed how important APPE's are and that the student's behavior is a reflection on the school? If the school has a cavalier, "don't care" attitude about the rotations, then this will rub off on the students.

Unfortunately, it's going to be on you to overcome the limited education your school gave you. It really sounds like your school is not preparing students to take the NAPLEX, and consequently they haven't prepared students for their APPE's. A school that is giving a quality education (and only accepting quality students) should have passing rates of 98%--there is no reason why every student who can graduate pharmacy school, should not be able to pass the NAPLEX. I'd say passing rates should be 100%, but there is always someone who gets the flu or some illness who can't perform up to their usual standard.

 

[sozetone]

*disclaimer - I am not a student yet - interview is in 2 weeks, but I work with preceptors and the students on rotations.*

One of the BIGGEST issues that I see from students is their lack of communication skills regardless of their native language.

Students lack confidence, ability to speak in front of small groups, ability to ask the questions that they mean to ask. Those that do well, not only do what is asked of them, but ask what else they can assist with. Or if they finished their given task, they'll branch off and look for even more information that may support what they are doing.

The students have to also make a presentation in front of a small group of pharmacists, other students, and others interested in the topic (they may have to give the presentation more than once in order for everyone to see it). Those that don't do as well use a lot of filler words/sounds (Like, Umm, Uhh, etc..), they are quiet and don't project, and they lack confidence.

Side note - you don't have to BE confident to SOUND confident, but if you are going to be the authority giving the presentation, you need to come across that way.

Not everyone who is going to do a rotation is going to do well all the time.

• Ask questions - Do not wait for the preceptor to bring something to you or ask you to do something. Step up and ask - Show Initiative!
• Ask this very important question - How could I have done this better? Even if they said you did well, there is always room for improvement. Show that you know that.
• Take constructive criticism well - No one likes to hear that they could have done better, or that they didn't appear to do their best work - no matter how hard you think you did work. Learn from what you're told. If you're not told anything, see points 1 and 2.
• Find your voice - If you have something to contribute, speak up! Just remember to be respectful and professional. You are also showing how you act in a professional environment.
• Treat the rotation as a job interview - Be professional, act professional. Even if you are in a rotation that you don't actually want to work in, you're still "working" in a professional environment.
• Learn to work with others - You do not know more than those in charge. You are a student. Absorb. Learn. Put your BEST self forward. Learn to work with all kinds. Learn to work with those you don't particularly care for. Learn to work under someone whose management style you like. Put as much effort into learning how to work under someone whose management style you don't like.

These are life lessons that are going to carry you much farther than just graduating pharmacy school (or any school, really).

You make some very good points and sound intelligent and well spoken. One thing is missing however....

None of this will land you a job now a days and get you that nice money. Pharmacy school is a time waster and a smoke screen. The real world does not care about this stuff. do some research before you plan on a "career" in pharmacy.

 

[sozetone]

Wow, passing rate in the 70's for NAPLEX is very low. There are definitely problems with how the education you are getting at the school, and that is undoubtedly affecting students grades on the APPE's. How could it not? Of course students won't know everything, but if they are having to look up everything and/or looking up common stuff, that is a problem. Also, applying things does have to be learned, but the school should be teaching the basics of that as well, if students don't know how to apply anything, that is a problem with the school. And to some extent, even students not showing up on time or misbehaving, has the school stressed how important APPE's are and that the student's behavior is a reflection on the school? If the school has a cavalier, "don't care" attitude about the rotations, then this will rub off on the students.

Unfortunately, it's going to be on you to overcome the limited education your school gave you. It really sounds like your school is not preparing students to take the NAPLEX, and consequently they haven't prepared students for their APPE's. A school that is giving a quality education (and only accepting quality students) should have passing rates of 98%--there is no reason why every student who can graduate pharmacy school, should not be able to pass the NAPLEX. I'd say passing rates should be 100%, but there is always someone who gets the flu or some illness who can't perform up to their usual standard.

If your smart, you can study for the naplex in 6 weeks and get triple digit score. It's only a test. know the material and your a pharmacist!

 

[Thepharmstudent111]

-

 

[CynicalIntern]

. Some preceptors didn’t like it when students don’t show up or misbehave on rotation.

I personally love it when my students misbehave on rotation, screw those squares.

 

[Saisri_PharmStdnt]

You make some very good points and sound intelligent and well spoken. One thing is missing however....

None of this will land you a job now a days and get you that nice money. Pharmacy school is a time waster and a smoke screen. The real world does not care about this stuff. do some research before you plan on a "career" in pharmacy.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I am quite sure of my career choice and the direction I'm taking it in, but I thank you for your opinion and your compliment to my post.

Side note - I'm not doing it for the "nice" money. Getting paid more than I do currently would be a bonus, but I'm seeking the degree to continue working with our clients and serving them in a greater capacity.

 

[Sabril]

You guys wanna hear a funny story? It was my final rotation, i aced all 8 so far ( you gotta be strange not to right?) Nobody wanted this rotation at a veterinary compounding pharmacy in boca raton florida ok? So my preceptor retires and i get dropped from my last rotation last minute. All i can do is pick up the rotation at this vet compounding pharmacy. I heard the guy was mean and made the chicks cry a lot. At the time I was tired and ready to graduate. He kept pestering me about stuff I couldn't do or know ...etc. Like a boss performance you for stuff you cant control or have nothing to do with. After only 3 days! was 2011, ill never forget. He cursed at me regarding a dye used in compounding that i did not know about yet. I had not had time to even research it. (He openly told me he did not like Nova southeastern students as well). I told him to go F**k himself and walked out. no joke after 3 days. And that is NOT my style to lose my cool like that. Turns out the school had problems with him for years. long history of this. They gave me another one, i aced it again and was done. Sometimes you gotta stand up to people and pick your battles. It was a gamble, but worse case i had to repeat a rotation (which i did) no problem. FYI (do not do this in the "REAL WORLD") lol. your boss and work record will haunt you forever.

I don't personally know anybody in vet compounding, but from all the stories I heard so far, it looks like people in this field are angry and mean as hell. I don't know why. And I thought vet compounding was a relatively good field. Mostly customers who are willing to pay any amount of cash and no major competitors.

 

[Thepharmstudent111]

Hello everyone, I am on block#9. Everything is going well so far and I then have to complete my makeup block in summer since I did not pass General Medicine the first time and then I will get the diploma and be able to then take the Naplex.

 

[tennismaniac]

Hello Terryterry, I had to make an C on mine and I didn't make that. Some preceptors are mean, but sometimes in the end they pass the student because they don't want to deal with talking to the course coordinator about failing a student. My preceptor was just plain out crazy. It takes a lot of hard work to fail a student and alot of documentation. Also it is very rare occurrence. I am mad at the fact that I actually failed the rotation. If I passed with the lowest grade to earn, I understand and would not be a bully about it. But if I did everything that a student is suppose to on rotation and receive a failing grade, then that is the part I would be mad and concerned about. I dont know what would go through the preceptors mind for doing something like this. I understand if I didn't try or didn't show up, then I feel I deserve to fail. But in my situation, I do not deserve to fail

Oh, I thought I was the only student who had failed a pharmacy rotation. I was supposed to be at my site for 4 weeks in the summer, but my preceptor was a first class bitch. In fact, what she did was so unforgivable, it makes me so F*****G PISSED. Day 1-I worked with the other pharmacist. I filled prescriptions, answered phone calls, attended to customers, organized the stock shelves, and actively participated in the pharmacy. Granted it was my first day on the job, so I was still getting accustomed to the workflow and the computer system. The other pharmacist was busy with inventory work and told me not to disturb him, which I understood. Day 2-did the same tasks as Day 1 and the last 2 hours, my preceptor comes in to work before I was done for the day. She does not even know me. She sits me down and apparently accuses me of things that I did not do. She said I was lazy and not participating in the pharmacy-which was not true. She also accuses me of having no interest in this profession, which is bull**** considering she had never worked with me at all. I believe the other pharmacist lied to her. So I tried explaining my side of the story and she accuses me of arguing. So I apologize "let her win" and proceeded to work with her for two hours. I could not understand why she was making these accusations. During the two hours, there was no teaching, academic instruction, assessment or discussion involved. I literally just counted pills and answered the phone. Later that night, after I left, she called the IPPE coordinator at my school and decided within two hours that I was not capable of passing and when I walked in on my 3rd day, I saw my IPPE coordinator and my preceptor and they both said I failed the rotation. LET ME SAY THIS WAS THE WORST MOMENT OF MY ACADEMIC CAREER. It's F****D up. How can I fail when the preceptor did not work with me??? More than the preceptor I blame the school and apparently a bunch of ****/lies was said about me so the preceptor could justify failing me. It was all subjective and none of it was based on my knowledge. IN FACT, IT IS INHUMANE TO MAKE STUDENTS PAY $3,000 FOR THIS COURSE and and fail them for no reason. I learned nothing from my rotation. In fact, I talked to the dean and the academic affairs committee and they basically said the preceptor had every right to fail me. Not sure if its worth taking legal action.

 

[Sine Cura]

when I walked in on my 3rd day, I saw my IPPE coordinator and my preceptor and they both said I failed the rotation.

You should appeal this if true.

Unfortunately many pharmacists are horrible teachers and have zero leadership skills and many bad "preceptors" are forced to be preceptors by the rotation sites.

 

[wazoodog]

Some of the posts on this thread are really interesting. In some ways, it plays into the millennial stereotype of "i showed up and tried hard, i should have gotten a better grade." FWIW, as a preceptor, that does count for a lot along with professionalism. We like to see progression and development through effort and growing interest.

However, I dont think that should be the expectation from students. Fortunately, a lot of preceptors will think as I do. But a lot won't. There will be preceptors who see themselves as last line gatekeepers to a profession that will have patient lives at stake. If they feel you're not on your way to being a competent pharmacist, they will simply block you of their sense of principle. They often feel personal accountability for letting someone through who they feel would endanger patient lives.

Also, if a preceptor says they dont like the way you're communicating..it pays to listen. Feel free to think about it and disagree later on after you've gained more experience, but oftentimes we just don't know what we don't know. A preceptor is your preceptor for a reason -they have experience a student doesnt have yet and are often telling you things you didnt even realize you didnt know. And some students are so defensive that they're too busy resisting instead of trying to be a sponge and listen. Preceptors can be plenty wrong but as a student, it's worth it to ask yourself what you could be doing differently with a humble mind - wait until you have some level of similar professional experience as your preceptor before judging their feedback. If you're being clearly disrespected that's another issue of course.

 

[VA77]

The failure will affect the schools on time graduation rate which ACPE is putting more emphasis on. Ask the school if you will be able to graduate ontime and if not file a grievance with the school and then appeal to ACPE if you feel it violates their standards.

 

[owlegrad]

So do you think your preceptor failed you for the fun of it? Why do you think other pharmacists would lie about your performance?

I am not saying it didn’t happen just that there are three sides to every story (yours, mine, and the truth) and chances are we are not getting the full story. Why would a preceptor go through all the trouble of failing you (and your IPPE coordinator agreed to it) for no reason or just based on lies?

 

[tennismaniac]

I gave them the r


I already gave the appe coordinator the concerning note in regards to the preceptor. I am the type of student where I know if something was not right, I have the right to talk to the coordinator after finishing the rotation and not going back to my site again. Everything was taken care of in the best way possible and they knew I was honest. They are also now monitoring me throughout the rest of the rotation to make sure I am doing alright. Since it is only one failed rotation and since happened toward the beginning of rotations, they will look at everything in and out if anything happens again. Because they will review my transcript and the rest of the rotation performances if the situation happens again. We are almost halfway done, so they will then see that I am not having any issue with my other rotations and that I am in good academic standing. Also, I will make sure that even if the midpoint eval is not done at midpoint, I will ask what is my grade right at this moment. I will say once graduation comes, there will be no looking back for me, haha!

You should appeal this if true.

Unfortunately many pharmacists are horrible teachers and have zero leadership skills and many bad "preceptors" are forced to be preceptors by the rotation sites.

Yeah.

The failure will affect the schools on time graduation rate which ACPE is putting more emphasis on. Ask the school if you will be able to graduate ontime and if not file a grievance with the school and then appeal to ACPE if you feel it violates their standards.

I actually left the school because I did not know if this would happen again.

 

[tennismaniac]

Some of the posts on this thread are really interesting. In some ways, it plays into the millennial stereotype of "i showed up and tried hard, i should have gotten a better grade." FWIW, as a preceptor, that does count for a lot along with professionalism. We like to see progression and development through effort and growing interest.

However, I dont think that should be the expectation from students. Fortunately, a lot of preceptors will think as I do. But a lot won't. There will be preceptors who see themselves as last line gatekeepers to a profession that will have patient lives at stake. If they feel you're not on your way to being a competent pharmacist, they will simply block you of their sense of principle. They often feel personal accountability for letting someone through who they feel would endanger patient lives.

Also, if a preceptor says they dont like the way you're communicating..it pays to listen. Feel free to think about it and disagree later on after you've gained more experience, but oftentimes we just don't know what we don't know. A preceptor is your preceptor for a reason -they have experience a student doesnt have yet and are often telling you things you didnt even realize you didnt know. And some students are so defensive that they're too busy resisting instead of trying to be a sponge and listen. Preceptors can be plenty wrong but as a student, it's worth it to ask yourself what you could be doing differently with a humble mind - wait until you have some level of similar professional experience as your preceptor before judging their feedback. If you're being clearly disrespected that's another issue of course.

I agree this your theory, however in my case, I was not even given a fair assessment or warning. I was at the site for less than 3 days so while the preceptor did address her concerns, she neither gave me time to remediate nor a warning (which was actually against the school policy b/c school requires all professors to give a warning if the student is on the trajectory of failing a course). I can understand failing a student if the student is actually incompetent, does not know s**t, is rude or disrespectful, or puts a patient's life at risk. In my case, my preceptor worked with me for less than two hours and decided to fail me for frivolous reasons, which are unrelated to the pharmacy profession, that I was not capable of being a pharmacist. Actually told me I should reconsider another profession.

 

[tennismaniac]

Yeah.

I actually left the school because I did not know if this would happen again.

But how would I go about reporting this to the ACPE.

 

[VA77]

But how would I go about reporting this to the ACPE.

ACPE Complaint Form - Formstack

acpe-accredit.formstack.com

 

[tennismaniac]

So do you think your preceptor failed you for the fun of it? Why do you think other pharmacists would lie about your performance?

I am not saying it didn’t happen just that there are three sides to every story (yours, mine, and the truth) and chances are we are not getting the full story. Why would a preceptor go through all the trouble of failing you (and your IPPE coordinator agreed to it) for no reason or just based on lies?

Well, in my case, she apparently said I "did not seem interested" which was bull**** considering I showed up, filled prescriptions, answered phone calls, made product recommendations to customers, did a prescription transfer and volunteered to put stock bottles back on the shelves. All this was done proactively without being asked. I actually worked hard and I did not expect an "A" to be granted to me. She worked with me for less than two hours. Not sure if it her failure was done out of racial bias-considering I am of South Asian origin (even though I was US born) because this location was in a rural setting. She and the other pharmacist secretly made a series of accusations which were taking out of context. For example, during my 15 min break, I was in the breakroom and I put my head down on the table, and the store manager saw me and told my preceptor and apparently she taught my head was down while I was supposed to be working. As for failing me, it was no trouble for them at all because my preceptor was bat**** crazy. Every preceptor's personality is different, so if your rotation experience may be different. I guess the IPPE coordinator blindly sided with the preceptor maybe b/c he knows her well. I believe schools are royal to preceptors so they can keep them. Listen, I do not expect anyone to sympathize but if you're insinuating this situation was my fault, then I'd appreciate you if you did not judge me since it was a harrowing stressful experience that caused me sleepless nights.

 

[tennismaniac]

Well, in my case, she apparently said I "did not seem interested" which was bull**** considering I showed up, filled prescriptions, answered phone calls, made product recommendations to customers, did a prescription transfer and volunteered to put stock bottles back on the shelves. All this was done proactively without being asked. I actually worked hard and I did not expect an "A" to be granted to me. She worked with me for less than two hours. Not sure if it her failure was done out of racial bias-considering I am of South Asian origin (even though I was US born) because this location was in a rural setting. She and the other pharmacist secretly made a series of accusations which were taking out of context. For example, during my 15 min break, I was in the breakroom and I put my head down on the table, and the store manager saw me and told my preceptor and apparently she taught my head was down while I was supposed to be working. As for failing me, it was no trouble for them at all because my preceptor was bat**** crazy. Every preceptor's personality is different, so if your rotation experience may be different. I guess the IPPE coordinator blindly sided with the preceptor maybe b/c he knows her well. I believe schools are royal to preceptors so they can keep them. Listen, I do not expect anyone to sympathize but if you're insinuating this situation was my fault, then I'd appreciate you if you did not judge me since it was a harrowing stressful experience that caused me sleepless nights.

Like I said, I am a fair person. I can understand if my failure was because of incompetence, lack of knowledge, rude/disruptive behavior, harming a patient, etc. But learning should be a two-way street between the student and the preceptor. In my case, the preceptor did not work with me at all. The other pharmacist was busy doing his own thing and told me not to disturb him. So in my case, it was COMPLETELY UNFAIR!!! THESE PRECEPTORS ARE A DISGRACE TO THE PROFESSION.

 

[tennismaniac]

ACPE Complaint Form - Formstack

acpe-accredit.formstack.com

THANK YOU!

 

[tennismaniac]

I agree this your theory, however in my case, I was not even given a fair assessment or warning. I was at the site for less than 3 days so while the preceptor did address her concerns, she neither gave me time to remediate nor a warning (which was actually against the school policy b/c school requires all professors to give a warning if the student is on the trajectory of failing a course). I can understand failing a student if the student is actually incompetent, does not know s**t, is rude or disrespectful, or puts a patient's life at risk. In my case, my preceptor worked with me for less than two hours and decided to fail me on the 3rd day for frivolous reasons, which are unrelated to the pharmacy profession, that I was not capable of being a pharmacist. I did not even get a warning or a midpoint eval. In fact, there was no teaching, discussions or instructions involved. Well, in my case, she apparently said I "did not seem interested" which was bull**** considering I showed up, filled prescriptions, answered phone calls, made product recommendations to customers, did a prescription transfer and volunteered to put stock bottles back on the shelves. All this was done proactively without being asked. I actually worked hard and I did not expect an "A" to be granted to me. Actually told me I should reconsider another profession, which was a very cruel and downright b****y thing to say. She may have been a racist since I am South Asian origin and this location was in a rural setting. While she did address her concerns (which I could technically argue against every since one of her accusations), she did not give me a chance let me prove I was capable of being a pharmacist. I never got to counsel a patient or give vaccines like many of my other classmates, which makes me wonder why the school would want to derail my education. In fact, when the IPPE coordinator placed me with this preceptor, he himself told me that she does not like students, so not sure why she would agree to be a preceptor in the first place.

 

[tennismaniac]

The failure will affect the schools on time graduation rate which ACPE is putting more emphasis on. Ask the school if you will be able to graduate ontime and if not file a grievance with the school and then appeal to ACPE if you feel it violates their standards.

Well, I actually left the school since I was so pissed off by the lack of support.

 

[wazoodog]

It's unfortunate that this occurred. From what it sounds like, you received some kind of assessment from your preceptor but you didn't agree with it (thought it was unfair). Secondly, you feel that the preceptor didn't follow the procedure for allowing remediation time.

Perhaps your points are valid but as others have said, we're not really in the position to evaluate your preceptor's rationale - unless you can provide a verbatim and full account of her evaluation and comments (not just a 1 or 2 lines). You've alluded to 2 things - your preceptor thinks your communication skills weren't adequate and that you lacked motivation. Those 2 things are not "light" - they're actually 2 key reasons why many students don't graduate pharmacy school or why some pharmacists struggle with their job. Do you feel that your communication skills are excellent, or merely adequate? Do you feel that you were highly motivated during your rotation, or that you simply tried hard despite not feeling to enthusiastic about the whole gig?

As for procedure, we obviously don't have your school policy on hand so all we have to go by is your interpretation of it - which may be accurate but again, we're in no position to say much.

I can understand if my failure was because of incompetence, lack of knowledge, rude/disruptive behavior, harming a patient, etc. But learning should be a two-way street between the student and the preceptor.

It would be ideal if learning was a 2-way street between student and preceptor. Whether it should be is a different story. A student pays tuition to receive training, which include the IPPE and APPE. Pharmacist preceptors don't receive any pay to train students - they're essentially volunteers who might get some minimal CE credits in return. Trust me, there are easier ways to get CE credits. Simply put, a student is there to learn and a preceptor is there to provide the student with a professional environment and then evaluate their performance. It is NOT a school lab setting - at the end of the day, it's the professional practice environment of the preceptor and they have ultimate responsibility for everything that goes on there - including its primary responsibilities. If a student is a hindrance in any way to those primary responsibilities, a preceptor can take action.

Now, if those actions are not in line with your school's policy...well that's up to you and your school. If it seems like your school is supportive of the site - like I said, preceptors don't get paid. We partner with only 1 school currently and the school has said it's not easy finding enough sites willing to accept students. If 50 other students had no issue with the site, then they may assume the problem was you (fair or not) and would rather not risk losing the site that potentially many other students could enjoy.

I guess this is all now moot since you said you left the school. Good luck to you and frankly speaking, it may have worked out for the best - you very well may have found working as a pharmacist miserable and stressful. If the IPPE causes your sleepless nights, being a pharmacist is bound to be much more stressful.

 

[mentos]

OP should feel fortunate that he even got the chance to do a make up rotation. I was not aware that these existed. Don't some schools make you wait an entire year if you fail a rotation? Just like failing a class.

 

[owlegrad]

“Learning should be a two way street”

No. You should be there to learn. The fact that you think an IPPE student has much to teach a pharmacist shows a lack of comprehension about what the experience is. It might offer some insight on why you didn’t succeed at the site.

I will say that an IPPE student who shows up on the first day and is able to do transfers and take calls ins is pretty unusual and for me would be a delight. I have had APPE students who aren’t equipped to do that on the first day. And it is difficult to teach work ethic so being willing to do grunt work like putting bottles back without being asked is also a good sign. Which is what makes me think there is more to the story that you are either oblivious to or are obfuscating.

If it was racially motivated that really sucks and your school should have taken that accusation seriously.

Good luck on your future endeavors. It may not seem like it now but it probably is for the best. Pharmacy is a tough market right now so I hope you fall into something better.

 

[owlegrad]

OP should feel fortunate that he even got the chance to do a make up rotation. I was not aware that these existed. Don't some schools make you wait an entire year if you fail a rotation? Just like failing a class.

At UF it depended on the schedule. Sometimes it was possible to makeup a rotation the same year and other times you had to wait for the next year.

 

[tennismaniac]

“Learning should be a two way street”

No. You should be there to learn. The fact that you think an IPPE student has much to teach a pharmacist shows a lack of comprehension about what the experience is. It might offer some insight on why you didn’t succeed at the site.

I will say that an IPPE student who shows up on the first day and is able to do transfers and take calls ins is pretty unusual and for me would be a delight. I have had APPE students who aren’t equipped to do that on the first day. And it is difficult to teach work ethic so being willing to do grunt work like putting bottles back without being asked is also a good sign. Which is what makes me think there is more to the story that you are either oblivious to or are obfuscating.

If it was racially motivated that really sucks and your school should have taken that accusation seriously.

Good luck on your future endeavors. It may not seem like it now but it probably is for the best. Pharmacy is a tough market right now so I hope you fall into something better.

Well, the reason I was doing all those tasks was because prior to pharmacy school, I had worked at Rite Aid for two years, so I was familiar with majority of the retail pharmacy operations. Yes, I see your point that the student should not teach the pharmacist, however, the pharmacist's assessment should be fair and if the student is required to pay for this course, then the student should feel like they've learned a lot. In my case I did not learn a single damn thing from either of the pharmacists, which is f*****g stupid. The student should feel like they have the skills needed to practice when they finish these IPPE rotation. In my case, I HAVE NEVER PAID FOR A COURSE AND NEVER GOTTEN ANYTHING OUT OF IT!!!! I can understand if she addressed her concerns and there was a lack of improvement over time, then I can see why the failure would have been justified. In this case, nothing drastic happened; no patient was harmed, no one was offended. I came in, worked and contributed in my own way. Even if either of the pharmacists felt I was secretly not interested, I showed up and contributed in my own way and I proactively did tasks without being told. The other pharmacist was stressed doing inventory work because coorporate was coming for inspection so he told me not to bother him, and I respected his rules.

I believe this was racially motivated, but usually in such cases, the preceptor is not going to openly admit she treated a student different because of race/ethnicity because it will obviously lead to a lawsuit. So it's hard to prove this was racially motivated. If they're smart enough to be pharmacists, then their smart enough to cover their tracts; they did this by taking things out of context and exaggerating false claims.

 

[tennismaniac]

It's unfortunate that this occurred. From what it sounds like, you received some kind of assessment from your preceptor but you didn't agree with it (thought it was unfair). Secondly, you feel that the preceptor didn't follow the procedure for allowing remediation time.

Perhaps your points are valid but as others have said, we're not really in the position to evaluate your preceptor's rationale - unless you can provide a verbatim and full account of her evaluation and comments (not just a 1 or 2 lines). You've alluded to 2 things - your preceptor thinks your communication skills weren't adequate and that you lacked motivation. Those 2 things are not "light" - they're actually 2 key reasons why many students don't graduate pharmacy school or why some pharmacists struggle with their job. Do you feel that your communication skills are excellent, or merely adequate? Do you feel that you were highly motivated during your rotation, or that you simply tried hard despite not feeling to enthusiastic about the whole gig?

As for procedure, we obviously don't have your school policy on hand so all we have to go by is your interpretation of it - which may be accurate but again, we're in no position to say much.



It would be ideal if learning was a 2-way street between student and preceptor. Whether it should be is a different story. A student pays tuition to receive training, which include the IPPE and APPE. Pharmacist preceptors don't receive any pay to train students - they're essentially volunteers who might get some minimal CE credits in return. Trust me, there are easier ways to get CE credits. Simply put, a student is there to learn and a preceptor is there to provide the student with a professional environment and then evaluate their performance. It is NOT a school lab setting - at the end of the day, it's the professional practice environment of the preceptor and they have ultimate responsibility for everything that goes on there - including its primary responsibilities. If a student is a hindrance in any way to those primary responsibilities, a preceptor can take action.

Now, if those actions are not in line with your school's policy...well that's up to you and your school. If it seems like your school is supportive of the site - like I said, preceptors don't get paid. We partner with only 1 school currently and the school has said it's not easy finding enough sites willing to accept students. If 50 other students had no issue with the site, then they may assume the problem was you (fair or not) and would rather not risk losing the site that potentially many other students could enjoy.

I guess this is all now moot since you said you left the school. Good luck to you and frankly speaking, it may have worked out for the best - you very well may have found working as a pharmacist miserable and stressful. If the IPPE causes your sleepless nights, being a pharmacist is bound to be much more stressful.

Well, since this pharmacy program is only two years old, the school may not fully realize that this site is a bad site and they may be biased toward the preceptor. I don't think communication was a real issue because 1. the preceptor was not even there my first day and majority of my second day. She literally worked with me for LESS THAN 2 HOURS!!!!! Like I said, she did address her concern that she felt "I was not interested," but this was bull**** and NOT GROUNDS FOR ACADEMIC FAILURE. Since my program is relatively new, there is not really a set policy for preceptors.
So it is hard to say if other students had a hard time. Yes, I see your point that the student should not teach the pharmacist, however, the pharmacist's assessment should be fair and if the student is required to pay for this course, then the student should feel like they've learned a lot. In my case I did not learn a single damn thing from either of the pharmacists, which is f*****g stupid. The student should feel like they have the skills needed to practice when they finish these IPPE rotation. In my case, I HAVE NEVER PAID FOR A COURSE AND NEVER GOTTEN ANYTHING OUT OF IT!!!! I can understand if she addressed her concerns and there was a lack of improvement over time, then I can see why the failure would have been justified. In this case, nothing drastic happened; no patient was harmed, no one was offended. I came in, worked and contributed in my own way. Even if either of the pharmacists felt I was secretly not interested, I showed up and contributed in my own way and I proactively did tasks without being told.

 

[tennismaniac]

It's unfortunate that this occurred. From what it sounds like, you received some kind of assessment from your preceptor but you didn't agree with it (thought it was unfair). Secondly, you feel that the preceptor didn't follow the procedure for allowing remediation time.

Perhaps your points are valid but as others have said, we're not really in the position to evaluate your preceptor's rationale - unless you can provide a verbatim and full account of her evaluation and comments (not just a 1 or 2 lines). You've alluded to 2 things - your preceptor thinks your communication skills weren't adequate and that you lacked motivation. Those 2 things are not "light" - they're actually 2 key reasons why many students don't graduate pharmacy school or why some pharmacists struggle with their job. Do you feel that your communication skills are excellent, or merely adequate? Do you feel that you were highly motivated during your rotation, or that you simply tried hard despite not feeling to enthusiastic about the whole gig?

As for procedure, we obviously don't have your school policy on hand so all we have to go by is your interpretation of it - which may be accurate but again, we're in no position to say much.



It would be ideal if learning was a 2-way street between student and preceptor. Whether it should be is a different story. A student pays tuition to receive training, which include the IPPE and APPE. Pharmacist preceptors don't receive any pay to train students - they're essentially volunteers who might get some minimal CE credits in return. Trust me, there are easier ways to get CE credits. Simply put, a student is there to learn and a preceptor is there to provide the student with a professional environment and then evaluate their performance. It is NOT a school lab setting - at the end of the day, it's the professional practice environment of the preceptor and they have ultimate responsibility for everything that goes on there - including its primary responsibilities. If a student is a hindrance in any way to those primary responsibilities, a preceptor can take action.

Now, if those actions are not in line with your school's policy...well that's up to you and your school. If it seems like your school is supportive of the site - like I said, preceptors don't get paid. We partner with only 1 school currently and the school has said it's not easy finding enough sites willing to accept students. If 50 other students had no issue with the site, then they may assume the problem was you (fair or not) and would rather not risk losing the site that potentially many other students could enjoy.

I guess this is all now moot since you said you left the school. Good luck to you and frankly speaking, it may have worked out for the best - you very well may have found working as a pharmacist miserable and stressful. If the IPPE causes your sleepless nights, being a pharmacist is bound to be much more stressful.

Btw, I believe you misunderstood what I said. The IPPE rotation itself was not a stressful experience- in fact, I had no issue coming in and working for 10-12 hours in a row. I have worked at Rite Aid where I did 8-10 hour shifts-prior to pharmacy school and I actually enjoyed it. Being failed after 3 days no legitimate reason and having my academic career derailed WAS THE MOST STRESSFUL EXPERIENCE. Comparing my experience to the stress pharmacists face every day is like comparing apples to oranges. On a side note, at the end of the day-even if it's busy- pharmacists can at least can leave and not worry about work until they have to arrive for work the following day.

 

[tennismaniac]

OP should feel fortunate that he even got the chance to do a make up rotation. I was not aware that these existed. Don't some schools make you wait an entire year if you fail a rotation? Just like failing a class.

I believe it just depends on the schools policies. For me, even though I failed, they could have let me redo the rotation during a different block. But instead they said I had to repeat the entire year, which was f*****ed up.

 

[tennismaniac]

Hello Terryterry, I had to make an C on mine and I didn't make that. Some preceptors are mean, but sometimes in the end they pass the student because they don't want to deal with talking to the course coordinator about failing a student. My preceptor was just plain out crazy. It takes a lot of hard work to fail a student and alot of documentation. Also it is very rare occurrence. I am mad at the fact that I actually failed the rotation. If I passed with the lowest grade to earn, I understand and would not be a bully about it. But if I did everything that a student is suppose to on rotation and receive a failing grade, then that is the part I would be mad and concerned about. I dont know what would go through the preceptors mind for doing something like this. I understand if I didn't try or didn't show up, then I feel I deserve to fail. But in my situation, I do not deserve to fail

I had an even worse experience and I am sorry to say there are preceptors out their who are either frustrated with their life or the stressed out about their profession, so they take it out on students. Just because we were both placed with sh***y preceptors, we should not let their actions define our future.

 

[tennismaniac]

Actually, you might get a chance to retaliate when you get older. I certainly got even with one of the three preceptors who made my life hell when I was in rotations. I apparently screwed over another one of the three, but that was in a capacity where I just didn't act on something.

The people who say that revenge is an empty feeling have never done it right, it's phenomenal on a primal level and I still use it as my happy memory when the headaches of power get to me.

Any ideas? Maybe an email? or just showing at where she works and giving her a piece of your mind.

 

[tennismaniac]

Oh I definitely think it's not necessarily always that person's fault. However, if someone tells you something you aren't doing correctly, just listen.

Right some pharmacists are just unhappy with their profession (especially in a retail setting) so they lash out at students by failing them by making **** up and taking things out of context.

 

[tennismaniac]

Reminder that we only hear your side of the story, but if that's true, your grade is immediately appealable. The EC would actually be in violation for letting that stand if that really was true. You are supposed to be warned if your failure is imminent and discussed with the EC and put on a PIP.

Sometimes appeal processes are not worth it, especially if the school is biased toward the preceptor. The school itself does not want to lose its sites if they don't side with the preceptor.

 

[VA77]

A new school that is 2 years old certainly does not want to lose sites. Are you enrolling in another school?

 

[tennismaniac]

Honestly thinking about it. After that horrible experience, not sure if I wanna be in a frustrated profession that treats students this badly. Any suggestions would be appreciated?

 

[JJSRX]

Challenge your dean to review the tape of your contributions in pharmacy, if it’s a chain there’s probably 90 days of tape to be seen.
Go through your formal academic review board not just in your school of pharmacy but the whole institution. If you feel it is racially motivated, your school will have a compliance office similar to EEOC for employees

 

[tennismaniac]

Well, I went to the dean in July when this incident happened and he basically dismissed me. Before that I presented my case to the academic committee and it sounded like they were biased toward the preceptor. This is HT grocery chain so the tape would have been erased by now. I am not sure if my university as an academic review board because I asked the provost of the university if I can appeal to him, but he said no since the school of pharmacy was a separate entity. So I figured the best decision was to "walk away" because at this point, it's not worth it.

 

[BidingMyTime]

Being failed after 3 days no legitimate reason and having my academic career derailed WAS THE MOST STRESSFUL EXPERIENCE.

Well, like Owlegrad said, it's hard to know what went down since we can only hear your side. It is hard to imagine that a preceptor (and your school) decided to fail you after only 3 days on your job (short of a major incident.) I mean, poor communication and lack of motivation can reason to fail someone at the end of a rotation, but after only 3 days? Even if it was racially motivated, I have a hard time believing the preceptor and your school would be that obvious about it. I think there has to be something else going on--either something you aren't telling us, or something that you were completely oblivious to.

 

[PharmtoCS]

From what I heard, the paperwork and documentation required to fail a student can be a nightmare. Even then, schools typically do not have the interest of failing students since it makes the school look bad.

I doubt that the preceptor, let alone the dean would go through all the red tape of failing a student just for ****s and giggles. There has to be more to the story.

 

[tennismaniac]

Well, like Owlegrad said, it's hard to know what went down since we can only hear your side. It is hard to imagine that a preceptor (and your school) decided to fail you after only 3 days on your job (short of a major incident.) I mean, poor communication and lack of motivation can reason to fail someone at the end of a rotation, but after only 3 days? Even if it was racially motivated, I have a hard time believing the preceptor and your school would be that obvious about it. I think there has to be something else going on--either something you aren't telling us, or something that you were completely oblivious to.

Listen, I know it's easy for you to judge, which is fine. I do not expect any sympathy from anyone. But your rotation experience may have been different, which is why it is hard for you to look at things from my perspective. But this case, my preceptor was a first class b***h and she lied and over-exaggerated over minute things-while jumping to conclusions claiming she had "high-standards." At my pharmacy school, rotation grading is 100% subjective, so sometimes there are horrible preceptors out there who can fail students even if they don't like them for whatever reason. My preceptor told LIES and the school believed the preceptor because my school is only two years old and they probably did not want to lose its rotation sites. In fact, my IPPE coordinator warned me about her personality and he said "she's tough, but you'll learn a lot." When I asked if I can go to a different rotation, he said, "nah you stay here," which makes me wonder if this was predetermined.

 

[tennismaniac]

From what I heard, the paperwork and documentation required to fail a student can be a nightmare. Even then, schools typically do not have the interest of failing students since it makes the school look bad.

I doubt that the preceptor, let alone the dean would go through all the red tape of failing a student just for ****s and giggles. There has to be more to the story.

First of all, my preceptor and IPPE coordinator had no trouble failing me. From what I have heard, she literally called the IPPE coordinator at the end of my second day and said, "I need you to pull her from this rotation; I cannot pass this student." Boom! It was done so fast and I was like, "what the **** just happened?" I highly doubt there was any paperwork and documentation to fail me because I did not even get the courtesy of an academic warning- which is required in my school if someone is about to fail a class. You're right. There was more to the story: my preceptor was a f*****g psycho b***h, who literally over exaggerated over stupid ****. Again, maybe your experience was different with preceptors is different, but in my case, I learned there are preceptors out there who are frustrated with their lives and they take it out on students by screwing them over/making them look bad. For example an example she made a big deal of was, I was filling birth control and the prescription was for 28 pills and when I retrieved it from the shelve, it did not have an X on it (which is written when a stock container is opened) so I thought it was brand new and I slapped a label on it. The box was had 28 pills written on it, but it was already opened and had less than 28 pills. She flipped out and said, "OMG MY LICENSE COULD HAVE GOTTEN REVOKED." Not sure if she was bipolar.

 

[tennismaniac]

Challenge your dean to review the tape of your contributions in pharmacy, if it’s a chain there’s probably 90 days of tape to be seen.
Go through your formal academic review board not just in your school of pharmacy but the whole institution. If you feel it is racially motivated, your school will have a compliance office similar to EEOC for employees

You should appeal this if true.

Unfortunately many pharmacists are horrible teachers and have zero leadership skills and many bad "preceptors" are forced to be preceptors by the rotation sites.

The school is High Point University Pharmacy Program-in case you're wondering. Please advise people not to apply to this program

 

[tennismaniac]

Some preceptors are dicks, but that's life. Your boss in the future might be the same way. Just gotta make the best of it or go elsewhere if you cant handle it. Nothing you can really do besides that.

TLDR: brush it off, learn from it, and move on

HPU in NC has the worst preceptors and administrative staff. They make students f*****g pay for this rotation and preceptors fail them for non-academic reasons. In my case, my first day I worked with the other pharmacist, my second day my preceptor worked with me for less than 2 hrs. Apparently she felt like I was not interested, which was Fu****g b******t-considering I was filling scripts, answering phone calls, counseling patients on medications (I had experience working as a tech prior to pharmacy school). I felt like this was wrong, but at the same time, I didn't want to sound like I was being argumentative. Then the end of day 2, she called the IPPE coordinator and decided to fail me with no warning and not even a chance to prove her wrong. These things are really hard to brush off, especially when the preceptor tells lies about you and the school does not support its students.

 

[tennismaniac]

Actually anecdotally I have heard more stories of students failing retail rotations than failing other types. Probably has something to do with the mindset or attitude than knowledge or aptitude I would bet.

I know one person who failed two retail rotations (the first one and the make-up) and the school required him to get a mental check up before reattempting it. In that case the person was long on excuses and short on accountability/responsibility. I couldn't understand it personally, even if everything he said was true, he was still the one who graduated a year late. I can't really understand that mindset. Just do whatever you need to do to pass and graduate.

Agree! In fact, my IPPE coordinator told me before my rotation that my preceptor does not even like working with students at HPU in NC. So I am really unsure why she decided to be a preceptor in the first place. And more importantly, why does the school even have this sh***y preceptors?

 

[Old Timer]

In the almost 40 years I have been a pharmacist, I only failed one student. As a preceptor, it is your job to train the next generation of pharmacists. You have the duty to give feedback in the moment as well as at prescribed times. When students are under my supervision, it's my job to supervise them. Nobody should ever be surprised.

I certainly agree when reading a complaint post there are more than one side of the story. But in reality, any preceptor who fails a student is a failure themselves. You could not reach them or teach them the skills you are required to impart. That's why it has only happened once and that was because the student in question did not posses the requisite knowledge to be a pharmacist.

 

[tennismaniac]

In the almost 40 years I have been a pharmacist, I only failed one student. As a preceptor, it is your job to train the next generation of pharmacists. You have the duty to give feedback in the moment as well as at prescribed times. When students are under my supervision, it's my job to supervise them. Nobody should ever be surprised.

I certainly agree when reading a complaint post there are more than one side of the story. But in reality, any preceptor who fails a student is a failure themselves. You could not reach them or teach them the skills you are required to impart. That's why it has only happened once and that was because the student in question did not posses the requisite knowledge to be a pharmacist.

It is nice that you see things from my viewpoint. And I agree that if a preceptor has to fail a student, it should be based on whether or not they have the prerequisite knowledge or the ability to perform as a pharmacist. In my case, I worked with the preceptor for less than 2 hours over a 2 day period (I was supposed to be at the site for 4 weeks) and there was no teaching/discussion/assessment involved. I worked with the other pharmacist for 2 days but he was not my preceptor and because he was busy doing inventory work, he told me not to bother him since corporate was coming the next day.