Failed out the first semester, looking for advice

[Trying2Suxede]

Hello, everyone. I am a long time lurker, I made an account back in the early 10s but forgot it.

Small background:
26 Asian male. Liberal Arts degree and a premed track from a state school in the midwest. After a mediocre undergrad career, I applied solely to DO schools for one cycle while working as a tutor/part-owner at a learning center.

I was a first semester student at a Big 4 Caribbean school. Not going to reveal which, but people can probably guess which by my descriptions. I was academically dismissed due to failing my classes by an extremely small margin. I don't have any excuse, other than the fact that I wasn't ready and I jumped too soon without considering whether the environment of this school was a fit for me. I didn't really do any research into the school other than the fact that this was the only school that accepted me without any caveats (premed program, take more classes, etc). I didn't go out and party (there is literally nothing to do where I am at except drinking which I don't) or even socialize at all. Even those that did do all that have moved on to the next semester, and I haven't. The accelerated curriculum, the bare bones facilities, etc. I am not really blaming anyone but myself, not even the school, especially when there are others who are passing so therefore it is my own deficiencies.

I was diagnosed with depression and anxiety, attributed to late diagnose of ADHD, which I didn't really take seriously due to a bunch of different reasons, a few days before my acceptance, and in my happiness, I thought I could power through it (I know, it was stupid on my part). In hindsight, I should have started therapy and the medication, but health insurance issue were making things hard for me to get good treatment so I just decide to go through it alone.

I have no idea of what to do next. I previously applied to SMP programs, all of whom rejected me, except for one, but I could not accept it due to getting the acceptance only 1 week before orientation and I was given only a few hours to say yes or no, and it was during a very tough time in my family, so I said no, and they did not want to push my acceptance to the next term (meaning I would have to reapply). I wrote out the application for the next year, but never finished it because I got in to the Caribbean medical school. I could probably try SMP programs again, but they will ask me what I have been doing for the last year, and I have no answer. Should I disclose that I attended (and failed out) of this medical school? I am considering other countries (maybe going back to India or the Phillippine in an MBBS program)

I don't know whether I want to pursue an MD/DO (or if it is even possible at this point), but I know I want to be in the health field 100%.

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[Caribpro]

I'm sorry this happened to you, but please realize this is not just your fault. This is the business model of the "big 4" and your failure is not necessarily a reflection of anything about you except for the mistake of going to one of those schools.

Before you ask for advice I think you need to decide what it is that you want to do. If you want to be an MD there are options, but you can't go back into another program half a$$ed.

Maybe you should take some time and take a few more premed courses and volunteer/shadow/Scribe/get your EMT/etc. Get more experience and reevaluate your commitment to medicine before you make any more costly decisions. good luck!

 

[NontradICUdoc]

I Think you need to take stock of your options. The fact that you were dismissed from a Caribbean medical school is a big red flag for US based schools. You will need to decide if this is the right path for you and if it is, you will have to take the long road to get yourself out of a very deep hole.

EVerything you do from here will be measured with a fine toothed comb. So if you are still willing to pursue this venture, understanding that your chances are not promising due to the failure of the first semester of medical school, you need to do it slowly and meticulously and put in the time and effort to do it right.

 

[Trying2Suxede]

I'm sorry this happened to you, but please realize this is not just your fault. This is the business model of the "big 4" and your failure is not necessarily a reflection of anything about you except for the mistake of going to one of those schools.

Before you ask for advice I think you need to decide what it is that you want to do. If you want to be an MD there are options, but you can't go back into another program half a$$ed.

Maybe you should take some time and take a few more premed courses and volunteer/shadow/Scribe/get your EMT/etc. Get more experience and reevaluate your commitment to medicine before you make any more costly decisions. good luck!

I'm not going into any program half-assed. I won't make that mistake. I did well near the end, for all good that did, and I discovered what I was doing wrong. I don't see myself doing anything other than being a doctor, and it has been what I wanted to do for 12 years of my life. I have taken all my premed courses. I am just not sure where to go from here. I could go become an EMT, and try again in another 5 years, but I am afraid this failure will always be a red flag.

 

[Trying2Suxede]

I Think you need to take stock of your options. The fact that you were dismissed from a Caribbean medical school is a big red flag for US based schools. You will need to decide if this is the right path for you and if it is, you will have to take the long road to get yourself out of a very deep hole.

EVerything you do from here will be measured with a fine toothed comb. So if you are still willing to pursue this venture, understanding that your chances are not promising due to the failure of the first semester of medical school, you need to do it slowly and meticulously and put in the time and effort to do it right.

So what do you suggest?

 

[Goro]

It's time for Plan B. You had your shot

 

[Trying2Suxede]

It's time for Plan B. You had your shot

Don't have one.

 

[deleted480308]

Don't have one.

then make one.....at this point pursuing being a doctor is like using lottery tickets as your retirement plan

It's just so unlikely that no one could suggest continuing the effort in good faith

I'm sorry

 

[Raney Schauer]

Don't have one.

That attitude would have been great to have during your one semester. Failing, for whatever reason you may cite, a Caribbean medical school damns you forever. That is a stink that will never wash off.

If you had been prepared and done some due diligence, you would have understood that all the issues you cited in your first post were going to cause you problems before you started.

That failure to understand yourself and accept the limitation of your abilities to the point where you would have gotten that you were going to fail before you ever started is what's going to keep you from getting another shot.

Use your degree to get a job wherever you can, get a career going, and live your life.

 

[Xanias]

If you want to pursue medical school then your only shot would be starting out at another Caribbean School (Terrible advice, but desperate times call for desperate measures)

I'm not sure if PA schools would be a viable option either

We don't know what your undergrad GPA is, but have you thought about pharmacy school ?

 

[Raney Schauer]

If you want to pursue medical school then your only shot would be starting out at another Caribbean School (Terrible advice, but desperate times call for desperate measures)

I'm not sure if PA schools would be a viable option either

We don't know what your undergrad GPA is, but have you thought about pharmacy school ?

If the OP can't get into an SMP, then PA is a no-go. PA is just as competitive as a US M.D. school.

Nursing, maybe, starting out at the CuCo level and working up from there.

 

[gyngyn]

If the OP can't get into an SMP, then PA is a no-go. PA is just as competitive as a US M.D. school.

I know someone with an MD from Ross who is attending PA school.
Admittedly they didn't flunk out of Ross, they just couldn't match after several cycles.

 

[Raney Schauer]

I know someone with an MD from Ross who is attending PA school.
Admittedly they didn't flunk out of Ross, they just couldn't match after several cycles.

Oof. What killed hierm?

 

[gyngyn]

Oof. What killed hierm?

I wish I knew. They passed both Steps on the first try.
I can attest to their communication and interpersonal skills.
After the first year or two, the YOG screen probably kicked in...
After three tries (and a whole lot of debt) they decided to move on.

 

[IMGASMD]

I wish I knew. They passed both Steps on the first try.
I can attest to their communication and interpersonal skills.
After the first year or two, the YOG screen probably kicked in...
After three tries (and a whole lot of debt) they decided to move on.

What’s going to be on his/her professional title? Or his/her diploma?

 

[Trying2Suxede]

If you want to pursue medical school then your only shot would be starting out at another Caribbean School (Terrible advice, but desperate times call for desperate measures)

I'm not sure if PA schools would be a viable option either

We don't know what your undergrad GPA is, but have you thought about pharmacy school ?

Outside of Biochemistry, I am crap at Chemistry, so Pharm is a huge No. Orgo 1 and 2 are probably the two grades which brought my overall GPA down so much. I have thought about PA or EMT, DPM, or even Nursing/NP. I'm just not sure how a failure at the Caribbean would reflect for the latter. My own undergrad was notroious for being extremely selective about its Nursing program.

I was going to apply to DPM this cycle, but one of the reasons I chose not to was because I really want to do medical missions abroad, and from what I can see, Podiatrists really do not do that.

 

[Skip Intro]

Caribbean Success Story

-Skip

 

[Emmet2301]

I think if you redeem yourself you might have a chance at NP/PA schools. You could also try an SMP for PA/Dentistry etc.

Med school might be out for you....

I wouldn't dismiss DPM so quickly. I would think some medical camps would appreciate a DPM.

 

[Raney Schauer]

I think if you redeem yourself you might have a chance at NP/PA schools. You could also try an SMP for PA/Dentistry etc.

Med school might be out for you....

I wouldn't dismiss DPM so quickly. I would think some medical camps would appreciate a DPM.

1 - You need to be a nurse before you can be an NP, which means RN/BSN.
2 - The OP already got rejected by SMP's
3 - Med school is definitely out
4 - DPM likely out too because of the dismissal
5 - What is a "medical camp"?
6 - you shouldn't throw out nebulous blanket statements like "redeem yourself" without describing exactly what that means.
7 - Don't designate yourself as Blower of Sunshine. People are trying to talk this individual out of years of prolonged rejection and failure, so that they can get on with a meaningful existence. Your post merely seeks to prolong the inevitable acceptance that the opportunity was squandered.

 

[bizdr]

Coming out of the Caribbean, your Step scores are going to matter more than anything else. If you do well in school going forward, and do very well on your Step exams - I don't think failing the first semester will be such a big deal. But regardless, it is hard getting through from the Caribbean. You have to do well on your clinical rotations, and try to make as many connections as you can. But you really should think why you failed. If you think you just weren't prepared but you have it in you to work hard and you can learn at this level, that's is okay. If school is a struggle for you even if you try hard, then think again.

 

[mcl]

Coming out of the Caribbean, your Step scores are going to matter more than anything else. If you do well in school going forward, and do very well on your Step exams - I don't think failing the first semester will be such a big deal. But regardless, it is hard getting through from the Caribbean. You have to do well on your clinical rotations, and try to make as many connections as you can. But you really should think why you failed. If you think you just weren't prepared but you have it in you to work hard and you can learn at this level, that's is okay. If school is a struggle for you even if you try hard, then think again.

Sorry--I have to disagree. An AMG having to repeat some coursework at the same institution can be overcome if the rest of the application is strong. Failing courses leading to a dismissal from a Caribbean school is a huge deal, and it's hard for me to imagine even IMG-friendly programs overlooking it. At that point, the only hope for a residency slot would be using personal connections, and that would only secure an interview, not a position on anyone's rank list.

 

[Goro]

Oof. What killed hierm?

Being IMG

 

[gyngyn]

What’s going to be on his/her professional title? Or his/her diploma?

They cannot have MD on their coat or badge if not functioning in that capacity.
They can use the honorific in their private life, otherwise their coat and badge will say Physician's Assistant (at least in our hospitals).

 

[IMGASMD]

They cannot have MD on their coat or badge if not functioning in that capacity.
They can use the honorific in their private life, otherwise their coat and badge will say Physician's Assistant (at least in our hospitals).

Thanks for humoring me. I didn’t think I was going to get an answer. But I was really interested in the answer.

 

[Emmet2301]

1 - You need to be a nurse before you can be an NP, which means RN/BSN.
2 - The OP already got rejected by SMP's
3 - Med school is definitely out
4 - DPM likely out too because of the dismissal
5 - What is a "medical camp"?
6 - you shouldn't throw out nebulous blanket statements like "redeem yourself" without describing exactly what that means.
7 - Don't designate yourself as Blower of Sunshine. People are trying to talk this individual out of years of prolonged rejection and failure, so that they can get on with a meaningful existence. Your post merely seeks to prolong the inevitable acceptance that the opportunity was squandered.

I'm not a "Blower of Sunshine". Just an optimist. If the OP really wants to stay in healthcare they might be able to work as a PCT or RN.

 

[Skip Intro]

Being IMG

It's interesting that, in this day and age, this this kind of naked prejudice still passes muster. I sincerely hope for your own sake that you don't publicly parade this kind of bigotry in the real world. Substitute the word "IMG" with "female" or "colored" or "alien" and see how that sounds. And, never forget the fact that a full 25% of the current physician workforce in the United States is foreign-trained.

You should be more forthright and honest with yourself and your clear bias.

-Skip

 

[dpmd]

It's interesting that, in this day and age, this this kind of naked prejudice still passes muster. I sincerely hope for your own sake that you don't publicly parade this kind of bigotry in the real world. Substitute the word "IMG" with "female" or "colored" or "alien" and see how that sounds. And, never forget the fact that a full 25% of the current physician workforce in the United States is foreign-trained.

You should be more forthright and honest with yourself and your clear bias.

-Skip

IMG means American who went to a med school not in the US. The reason for a bias against that is generally the only reason to be an IMG is because they were not accepted at US schools. Being upset with that is similar to being upset that banks won't extend you credit because you have a bad credit score. Sure some folks started out rough and have now changed for the better, but nothing wrong with preferring the ones who have don't have that questionable background.

 

[Skip Intro]

IMG means American who went to a med school not in the US. The reason for a bias against that is generally the only reason to be an IMG is because they were not accepted at US schools. Being upset with that is similar to being upset that banks won't extend you credit because you have a bad credit score. Sure some folks started out rough and have now changed for the better, but nothing wrong with preferring the ones who have don't have that questionable background.

Wrong.

If you take and pass the Steps, with flying colors, and have otherwise proven yourself to be a worthy candidate, then this simply becomes a prejudicial screening tool. When I enrolled at Ross, there were thousands of fewer medical spots in the U.S. than there are now. Did this mean that I was any less qualified at the time, given that I jumped through all the hoops, in comparison to now when I may have otherwise been privileged to get a U.S. spot?

Using your analogy, we therefore shouldn't automatically give loans to African-Americans simply because, on the whole, "their" class has historically proven to be unworthy in repaying them? Horse****! This is precisely the kind of artificial bias that his subjugated people for centuries.

I know you want to feel good about grouping and discriminating against a cohort of people simply because they went to medical school outside the U.S. You shouldn't.

Why the U.S. Needs More Doctors Trained Abroad

-Skip

 

[Xanias]

It's interesting that, in this day and age, this this kind of naked prejudice still passes muster. I sincerely hope for your own sake that you don't publicly parade this kind of bigotry in the real world. Substitute the word "IMG" with "female" or "colored" or "alien" and see how that sounds. And, never forget the fact that a full 25% of the current physician workforce in the United States is foreign-trained.

You should be more forthright and honest with yourself and your clear bias.

-Skip

What the hell are you even talking about brother.

Being an IMG puts you at a disadvantage when it comes to finding residency. This is not about discrimination, it is about giving the limited number of residency spots to those who completed Medical School in the US, whether MD or DO. And yes of course there are many successful foreign trained doctors, but there's also many who did not end up making it.

If you go to the Caribbean, then you are willing to accept the risk that you are at a disadvantage. Pretending its unfair and prejudiced is simply a naïve thing to do.

 

[Raney Schauer]

Being an IMG puts you at a disadvantage when it comes to finding residency. This is not about discrimination, it is about giving the limited number of residency spots to those who completed Medical School in the US, whether MD or DO.

What the hell are you even talking about brother. That's the very definition of unfair and prejudicial.

 

[Xanias]

What the hell are you even talking about brother. That's the very definition of unfair and prejudicial.

The limited number of spots will make US Graduates have priority over International Graduates. Guess why ? because you're seeking residency in the United States. Other countries play by the same rules as well, and if you are not willing of taking this risk then don't seek the Caribbean route.

 

[Raney Schauer]

The limited number of spots will make US Graduates have priority over International Graduates. Guess why ? because you're seeking residency in the United States. Other countries play by the same rules as well, and if you are not willing of taking this risk then don't seek the Caribbean route.

I'm merely pointing out that the words that you are using is the definition of preferential treatment. How are you not getting that?

 

[dpmd]

Wrong.

If you take and pass the Steps, with flying colors, and have otherwise proven yourself to be a worthy candidate, then this simply becomes a prejudicial screening tool. When I enrolled at Ross, there were thousands of fewer medical spots in the U.S. than there are now. Did this mean that I was any less qualified at the time, given that I jumped through all the hoops, in comparison to now when I may have otherwise been privileged to get a U.S. spot?

Using your analogy, we therefore shouldn't automatically give loans to African-Americans simply because, on the whole, "their" class has historically proven to be unworthy in repaying them? Horse****! This is precisely the kind of artificial bias that his subjugated people for centuries.

I know you want to feel good about grouping and discriminating against a cohort of people simply because they went to medical school outside the U.S. You shouldn't.

Why the U.S. Needs More Doctors Trained Abroad

-Skip

Whether you believe they should or not is irrelevant to the fact they do. If residencies can't fill, then sure they ought to turn to other options, but as long as they do fill then IMGs will be at a disadvantage. I don't have to feel good or bad about it. Whining about how everyone should feel bad about it on SDN isn't going to help anything. But feel free to carry on

 

[Skip Intro]

Whether you believe they should or not is irrelevant to the fact they do. If residencies can't fill, then sure they ought to turn to other options, but as long as they do fill then IMGs will be at a disadvantage. I don't have to feel good or bad about it. Whining about how everyone should feel bad about it on SDN isn't going to help anything. But feel free to carry on

Here's the part I think you're not getting.

For a long time, the medical education system in the U.S. ran as a cartel. It was like the NFL. It limited the number of people who could "play" in the game for no other reason than they didn't meet certain arbitrary admissions criteria which was combination of a multitude of factors, and not just grades, MCAT scores, etc. This nonsense was reinforced by short-sighted and ill-conceived "experts" and things like the COGME, for which we're still paying the price today (i.e. massive doctor shortage).

Fine. We're here now.

So, let's look at the current situation for a second. You now have about 1/4th of practicing physicians in the U.S. who happen to be foreign-trained. That alone tells you there is and has been a massive surplus of residency spots. That is also wholly unfair not only to the U.S. populace but to all the countries whose brain-power we've drained. Still, it is what it is.

Nonetheless, some of those folks are already bona fide U.S. citizens who could not or did not, for whatever reason, get their medical degree. They are United States citizens. Forgetting the fact that their own country couldn't provide them a pathway to get their medical degree and they otherwise passed all their licensing exams and are otherwise qualified to be called "doctor", now you're telling me it's okay to screen them out when they come back here solely by the fact that they got their medical degree in another country?

That's what Goro is talking about. Just simply because they are an IMG - even given the glut of extra residency spots that has produced a quarter of the physician workforce in the U.S. that is foreign-trained - it is okay to use that as a selection criteria against them. And, that is, by definition, prejudicial.

If you're saying that's okay, then why don't all programs do it?

Are you getting it now? The old "that's just the way it is" excuse no longer flies anymore, in case you haven't been paying attention.

-Skip

 

[dpmd]

Here's the part I think you're not getting.

For a long time, the medical education system in the U.S. ran as a cartel. It was like the NFL. It limited the number of people who could "play" in the game for no other reason than they didn't meet certain arbitrary admissions criteria which was combination of a multitude of factors, and not just grades, MCAT scores, etc. This nonsense was reinforced by short-sighted and ill-conceived "experts" and things like the COGME, for which we're still paying the price today (i.e. massive doctor shortage).

Fine. We're here now.

So, let's look at the current situation for a second. You now have about 1/4th of practicing physicians in the U.S. who happen to be foreign-trained. That alone tells you there is and has been a massive surplus of residency spots. That is also wholly unfair not only to the U.S. populace but to all the countries whose brain-power we've drained. Still, it is what it is.

Nonetheless, some of those folks are already bona fide U.S. citizens who could not or did not, for whatever reason, get their medical degree. They are United States citizens. Forgetting the fact that their own country couldn't provide them a pathway to get their medical degree and they otherwise passed all their licensing exams and are otherwise qualified to be called "doctor", now you're telling me it's okay to screen them out when they come back here solely by the fact that they got their medical degree in another country?

That's what Goro is talking about. Just simply because they are an IMG - even given the glut of extra residency spots that has produced a quarter of the physician workforce in the U.S. that is foreign-trained - it is okay to use that as a selection criteria against them. And, that is, by definition, prejudicial.

If you're saying that's okay, then why don't all programs do it?

Are you getting it now? The old "that's just the way it is" excuse no longer flies anymore, in case you haven't been paying attention.

-Skip

The only programs that don't do it are the ones who have difficulty attracting the preferred candidates.

 

[Goro]

It's interesting that, in this day and age, this this kind of naked prejudice still passes muster. I sincerely hope for your own sake that you don't publicly parade this kind of bigotry in the real world. Substitute the word "IMG" with "female" or "colored" or "alien" and see how that sounds. And, never forget the fact that a full 25% of the current physician workforce in the United States is foreign-trained.

You should be more forthright and honest with yourself and your clear bias.

-Skip

Touched a nerve, did I? "Colored" "female" "Jewish" etc are NOT synonyms for "was unable to get into a US med school, or too lazy or ignorant to fix their deficits"

Don't argue with me, argue with these guys:
http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/NRMP-2018-Program-Director-Survey-for-WWW.pdf

Quoting the wise gyngyn as to the why:
The pool of US applicants from the Caribbean is viewed differently by Program Directors. The DDx for a Caribbean grad is pretty off-putting: bad judgment, bad advice, egotism, gullibility, overbearing parents, inability to delay gratification, IA's, legal problems, weak research skills, high risk behavior. This is not to say that all of them still have the quality that drew them into this situation. There is just no way to know which ones they are. Some PD's are in a position where they need to, or can afford to take risks too! So, some do get interviews.


Bad grades and scores are the least of the deficits from a PD's standpoint. A strong academic showing in a Caribbean medical school does not erase this stigma. It fact it increases the perception that the reason for the choice was on the above-mentioned list!

 

[Skip Intro]

The only programs that don't do it are the ones who have difficulty attracting the preferred candidates.

So, that makes it right? You’re conflating issues and talking about something different. The ACGME has an obligation to ensure that there are enough spots for all U.S. medical school graduates. They therefore can prioritize their applicants for residency based on who applies, what their credentials are, where they rank against each other, etc. There’s no argument that this isn’t the most ethical and proper thing to do. Good programs don't have to shop for applicants. That's not what we're talking about. So, don't try to move the goalposts.

Touched a nerve, did I?

First, I don't care what gyngyn says. I'm specifically talking about U.S. citizens who have passed their licensure exams and are qualified to be called doctor, not what you're rambling about lazily quoting what another poster wrote. Try to stay on topic. Please

I'm spot-on here. If you read my follow-up, you'll understand that disqualifying a residency program candidate (people you personally have little-to-zero contact with) solely based on their country of medical school graduation is a discriminatory practice. Period. That is, if you throw all those applications in the junk pile when they are received simply because they have in some way, shape, or form the words "IMG" attached to them, it is no different than doing the same thing if they said "black", "Jewish", "female" or whatever other prejudicial classification you choose. If you're going to engage in this kind of bigotry, at least try to be a little more coy and not quite so forthright about it.

Lastly, do you know why they got rid of the TOEFL for foreign graduates almost two decades ago? (Do you even know what the TOEFL is?) Educate yourself. It's worth it.

If we're calling what's happening in our society right now an "awakening", then it's high time for all forms of this type of naked discrimination against classes of people to end. I'm not simply virtue signaling here. I'm honestly sick of the cherry-picking, unsupportable biases, unfathomable hypocrisy, and shameless double-standards supposed "well-meaning" people so proudly display. You shouldn't. It's beneath you. If you can't see that then, well... there's no hope for you.

-Skip

 

[Goro]

So, that makes it right? You’re conflating issues and talking about something different. The ACGME has an obligation to ensure that there are enough spots for all U.S. medical school graduates. They therefore can prioritize their applicants for residency based on who applies, what their credentials are, where they rank against each other, etc. There’s no argument that this isn’t the most ethical and proper thing to do. Good programs don't have to shop for applicants. That's not what we're talking about. So, don't try to move the goalposts.



First, I don't care what gyngyn says. I'm specifically talking about U.S. citizens who have passed their licensure exams and are qualified to be called doctor, not what you're rambling about lazily quoting what another poster wrote. Try to stay on topic. Please

I'm spot-on here. If you read my follow-up, you'll understand that disqualifying a residency program candidate (people you personally have little-to-zero contact with) solely based on their country of medical school graduation is a discriminatory practice. Period. That is, if you throw all those applications in the junk pile when they are received simply because they have in some way, shape, or form the words "IMG" attached to them, it is no different than doing the same thing if they said "black", "Jewish", "female" or whatever other prejudicial classification you choose. If you're going to engage in this kind of bigotry, at least try to be a little more coy and not quite so forthright about it.

Lastly, do you know why they got rid of the TOEFL for foreign graduates almost two decades ago? (Do you even know what the TOEFL is?) Educate yourself. It's worth it.

If we're calling what's happening in our society right now an "awakening", then it's high time for all forms of this type of naked discrimination against classes of people to end. I'm not simply virtue signaling here. I'm honestly sick of the cherry-picking, unsupportable biases, unfathomable hypocrisy, and shameless double-standards supposed "well-meaning" people so proudly display. You shouldn't. It's beneath you. If you can't see that then, well... there's no hope for you.

-Skip

It's not discrimination/bigotry for a PD to be suspicious of someone who bypassed the American medical education route. These are people who have some sort of deficit, which isn't ameliorated simply by getting through two years of exclusive Step I study and two years of clinical training. The hordes of posts in this forum lamenting ("didn't match, yet I have a nice Step I score!") is evidence it's on the graduate, not the PD.

And yes, I know what TOEFL is, as many of my grad school classmates had to take it.

 

[Skip Intro]

It's not discrimination/bigotry for a PD to be suspicious of someone who bypassed the American medical education route. These are people who have some sort of deficit, which isn't ameliorated simply by getting through two years of exclusive Step I study and two years of clinical training. The hordes of posts in this forum lamenting ("didn't match, yet I have a nice Step I score!") is evidence it's on the graduate, not the PD.

And yes, I know what TOEFL is, as many of my grad school classmates had to take it.

It does appear that you actually read my post... but it apparently either wasn't comprehended or went completely over your head. Discrimination happens. Profiling happens. I'm neither young nor naive. Shamelessly exalting it as "the right thing to do" is something completely different.

-Skip

 

[Goro]

It does appear that you actually read my post... but it apparently either wasn't comprehended or went completely over your head. Discrimination happens. Profiling happens. I'm neither young nor naive. Shamelessly exalting it as "the right thing to do" is something completely different.

-Skip

Recommend this for that raw nerve:

 

[Raney Schauer]

 

[Skip Intro]

Recommend this for that raw nerve:

Your shameless, unapologetic intractability duly noted.

-Skip

 

[dpmd]

So, that makes it right? You’re conflating issues and talking about something different. The ACGME has an obligation to ensure that there are enough spots for all U.S. medical school graduates. They therefore can prioritize their applicants for residency based on who applies, what their credentials are, where they rank against each other, etc. There’s no argument that this isn’t the most ethical and proper thing to do. Good programs don't have to shop for applicants. That's not what we're talking about. So, don't try to move the goalposts.



First, I don't care what gyngyn says. I'm specifically talking about U.S. citizens who have passed their licensure exams and are qualified to be called doctor, not what you're rambling about lazily quoting what another poster wrote. Try to stay on topic. Please

I'm spot-on here. If you read my follow-up, you'll understand that disqualifying a residency program candidate (people you personally have little-to-zero contact with) solely based on their country of medical school graduation is a discriminatory practice. Period. That is, if you throw all those applications in the junk pile when they are received simply because they have in some way, shape, or form the words "IMG" attached to them, it is no different than doing the same thing if they said "black", "Jewish", "female" or whatever other prejudicial classification you choose. If you're going to engage in this kind of bigotry, at least try to be a little more coy and not quite so forthright about it.

Lastly, do you know why they got rid of the TOEFL for foreign graduates almost two decades ago? (Do you even know what the TOEFL is?) Educate yourself. It's worth it.

If we're calling what's happening in our society right now an "awakening", then it's high time for all forms of this type of naked discrimination against classes of people to end. I'm not simply virtue signaling here. I'm honestly sick of the cherry-picking, unsupportable biases, unfathomable hypocrisy, and shameless double-standards supposed "well-meaning" people so proudly display. You shouldn't. It's beneath you. If you can't see that then, well... there's no hope for you.

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You seem to believe that an american who went to a foreign medical school is just as qualified as one who went to an American school. The majority of people who are in any position to judge disagree with you. The outstanding ones who get to complete residencies may be less distinguishable but that doesn't mean every img student is such.

 

[Skip Intro]

You seem to believe that an american who went to a foreign medical school is just as qualified as one who went to an American school. The majority of people who are in any position to judge disagree with you. The outstanding ones who get to complete residencies may be less distinguishable but that doesn't mean every img student is such.

I don’t “seem to believe” anything you wrote. You, on the other hand, repeatedly miss my point. You’re either not reading my posts very carefully... or perhaps at all. You seem instead intent to try to lecture me on something where you’re clearly wrong.

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[Skip Intro]

Furthermore, you do realize that what you two geniuses are openly and gleefully advocating is actually a violation of Federal law, right?

Why don’t you go back and stay in the pre-med forum with the high school students and undergrads where the bar is much lower?

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[WedgeDawg]

Please keep discussion civil and professional.

 

[dpmd]

I don’t “seem to believe” anything you wrote. You, on the other hand, repeatedly miss my point. You’re either not reading my posts very carefully... or perhaps at all. You seem instead intent to try to lecture me on something where you’re clearly wrong.

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You would have to believe that to believe that the decision to discriminate against them violates any kind of law. But I can see that challenging that belief is damaging enough to your ego that you can't deal with it so I will leave you to your delusions.

 

[Raney Schauer]

You would have to believe that to believe that the decision to discriminate against them violates any kind of law. But I can see that challenging that belief is damaging enough to your ego that you can't deal with it so I will leave you to your delusions.

Despite your overwhelming post count (4.2 posts on average over 12 years says you need professional help) this thread has shown me and everyone else that cares that you provide no value. Welcome to Raney's Ignore List. You're not the greatest, just the most recent.

 

[Skip Intro]

You would have to believe that to believe that the decision to discriminate against them violates any kind of law. But I can see that challenging that belief is damaging enough to your ego that you can't deal with it so I will leave you to your delusions.

It is a violation of not only Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, it is also a violation of the EEOC rules under which this has the effect of law. That no one has challenged it in court doesn't mean it's not illegal and/or immoral. Throwing an application in the waste bin simply because it says "IMG" is no different than throwing a job application (which is what this is tantamount to) in the waste bin because it says "foreigner". It is illegal.

You cannot engage in discriminatory screening practices for employment (which is what residency is) based on "national origin". It is clearly against the law. Does it happen? I'm sure it does. But, you shouldn't be so proud to proclaim that it does, nor that it's somehow inherently the right thing to do. At the very least, it makes you sound like a prejudicial bigot and xenophobe. Perhaps in some people's minds even a racist.

In this day and age, be careful where you tread.

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[dpmd]

Despite your overwhelming post count (4.2 posts on average over 12 years says you need professional help) this thread has shown me and everyone else that cares that you provide no value. Welcome to Raney's Ignore List. You're not the greatest, just the most recent.

Ah, yes. I see I have challenged the delusions of more than one person.