Failure rate of medical students?

[Finette]

sorry if I'm posting this in the wrong forum.

Last night I was looking something up on YouTube, and a recommended video popped up on the side panel. "Failed medical school." The creator made a video about her experience failing medical school after trying for 2 years. She tried numerous times to pass her qualifying exams, but no matter how hard she studied she failed again and again. Eventually she was dismissed from her school.

I understand getting into medical school is only the beginning of the battle, but do many students fail no matters how hard they try? I felt terrified after watching that.

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[Mad Jack]

She went to the Carib, she's hardly even a real person. Use the brain bleach and erase that video from your mind.

Seriously though, most schools have around 1% attrition per year, and most of those students come back. 98-99% of your class, if you go to an American school, will graduate either with you or the year after.

 

[Finette]

That's good to know!

Sheesh, I didn't even catch she went to the Caribbean. Makes a lot more sense now. *begins mixing brain bleach potion*

 

[yanks26dmb]

sorry if I'm posting this in the wrong forum.

Last night I was looking something up on YouTube, and a recommended video popped up on the side panel. "Failed medical school." The creator made a video about her experience failing medical school after trying for 2 years. She tried numerous times to pass her qualifying exams, but no matter how hard she studied she failed again and again. Eventually she was dismissed from her school.

I understand getting into medical school is only the beginning of the battle, but do many students fail no matters how hard they try? I felt terrified after watching that.

I entered medical school with nothing more than comm. college pre-reqs. I was deathly afraid I would fail and/or be significantly below my classmates, many of whom had advance science degrees, attended ivy leagues, etc. I was a nervous wreck. Eight weeks in, and I'm nowhere near failing out...in fact I'm doing better than the vast majority of those people.

I firmly believe its entirely within your control whether or not you fail out.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

It's much more likely to fail boards or get a crappy score than failing out of med school, so if there's anything you should be worried about, it's how you will perform on the boards.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Generally it is unlikely for you to fail out of medical school or fail the boards. The ones who fail out of medical school in the US do so usually because of external reasons, i.e illness or crisis. Medical school is difficult, but it is something that you adjust to and something that you learn to manage well enough to be comfortable at.

 

[costales]

Between the LOA and all the breaks given to U.S. med students, I really think failing out is in most cases a voluntary act.

 

[QueenJames]

I entered medical school with nothing more than comm. college pre-reqs. I was deathly afraid I would fail and/or be significantly below my classmates, many of whom had advance science degrees, attended ivy leagues, etc. I was a nervous wreck. Eight weeks in, and I'm nowhere near failing out.

I firmly believe its entirely within your control whether or not you fail out.

I PM'ed you!

 

[DocWinter]

My class had about 12 of 162 fail the 1st semester and 11 of the 12 will graduate a year later. Once you get through your 1st semester, you are highly, highly unlikely to fail.

Hardworking students who treat it like a full time job and a half are nearly almost always golden.

 

[Goro]

Indeed, given our commitment to make sure students graduate, it's harder to get OUT of med school than in!

Our own loss rate is ~1-2 %

Between the LOA and all the breaks given to U.S. med students, I really think failing out is in most cases a voluntary act.

 

[ortnakas]

Our class finished the year with 114 and started this semester with 111; one person left on their own volition, three are repeating first year, and we picked up one individual who is repeating second year. Not bad overall-- 97% retention.

 

[Harker Heights]

Attrition is also less than 1% per year at TCOM from their data.

 

[hallowmann]

That's good to know!

Sheesh, I didn't even catch she went to the Caribbean. Makes a lot more sense now. *begins mixing brain bleach potion*

The average attrition rate at DO schools is ~8% (range among schools is 4%-14%). That includes people who voluntarily left though. Almost all people who start will eventually finish.

It's much more likely to fail boards or get a crappy score than failing out of med school, so if there's anything you should be worried about, it's how you will perform on the boards.

Fail boards, probably not, do bad on boards absolutely possible if you don't take studying seriously.

 

[Mad Jack]

http://www.aacom.org/docs/default-source/data-and-trends/2013-com-attrition.pdf?sfvrsn=2

 

[hallowmann]

http://www.aacom.org/docs/default-source/data-and-trends/2013-com-attrition.pdf?sfvrsn=2

Yeah, unfortunately that table is super misleading. Instead of aggregating all attrition across one class, they just average it across the year among all schools, then they just average the annual average. It's all a bit meaningless. The true average is the sum of 4 annual averages (adjusted for a different initial amount though).

It actually looks like attrition may have increased slightly. If I have time I'll calculate it out.

 

[Mad Jack]

Yeah, unfortunately that table is super misleading. Instead of aggregating all attrition across one class, they just average it across the year among all schools, then they just average the annual average. It's all a bit meaningless. The true average is the sum of 4 annual averages (adjusted for a different initial amount though).

It actually looks like attrition may have increased slightly. If I have time I'll calculate it out.

The thing that gets me is it looks like it's roughly 3% a year, but it doesn't count people that come back, so it's hard to say how many of those are permanently lost.

 

[mspeedwagon]

You won't fail out of med school but you may not be graduate in four years. School I go to allows up to 7 yrs. Some students do leave for one reason or another though.

The biggest problem you may face is not going to a school you enjoy being at (I have that problem) which will make everything harder. As a pre-med you do not know how to select a school for you.

sorry if I'm posting this in the wrong forum.

Last night I was looking something up on YouTube, and a recommended video popped up on the side panel. "Failed medical school." The creator made a video about her experience failing medical school after trying for 2 years. She tried numerous times to pass her qualifying exams, but no matter how hard she studied she failed again and again. Eventually she was dismissed from her school.

I understand getting into medical school is only the beginning of the battle, but do many students fail no matters how hard they try? I felt terrified after watching that.

 

[Finette]

You won't fail out of med school but you may not be graduate in four years. School I go to allows up to 7 yrs. Some students do leave for one reason or another though.

The biggest problem you may face is not going to a school you enjoy being at (I have that problem) which will make everything harder. As a pre-med you do not know how to select a school for you.

Do you have any advice on how to select a suitable school? I know I'd be lucky to get into any school, but as a pre-med is there anything I can do to narrow down which schools would be best for me? I know I like being in smaller learning environments, where you get to build closer ties with those around you. I just transferred from a small college to a major university, and with 500+ students in every class I feel a little lost and lonely.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

You won't fail out of med school but you may not be graduate in four years. School I go to allows up to 7 yrs. Some students do leave for one reason or another though.

The biggest problem you may face is not going to a school you enjoy being at (I have that problem) which will make everything harder. As a pre-med you do not know how to select a school for you.

Generally the vast majority of your class will graduate in 4 years. Of that small minority who don't almost entirely all of them are doing it because of crisis occurring in their lives or due to LOA.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Do you have any advice on how to select a suitable school? I know I'd be lucky to get into any school, but as a pre-med is there anything I can do to narrow down which schools would be best for me? I know I like being in smaller learning environments, where you get to build closer ties with those around you. I just transferred from a small college to a major university, and with 500+ students in every class I feel a little lost and lonely.

Climate, location, cost, etc.

Medical school in terms of your learning environment is more akin to a medium sized high school class than college.

 

[Launcelot]

Generally the vast majority of your class will graduate in 4 years. Of that small minority who don't almost entirely all of them are doing it because of crisis occurring in their lives or due to LOA.

What's LOA? Law of averages?

 

[67552931811]

What's LOA? Law of averages?

leave of absence, dude...

 

[mspeedwagon]

I chose my school based on location (although a location I do not like as much as I thought I would). Beyond cost, I would evaluate course load, test schedule and available resources.

Given my learning style, I wish I had gone to a place with a block schedule rather than a school with several tests every week as I need at least a mental half day of rest. I also would have chosen a school with more non-trad resources and less fluff to the cirriculum (worthless classes and activities that take away from your precious study time). Ideally, a place that allows you to transition back to school (my gfs school allowed them to take anatomy over the summer and have a lighter load in the fall first yr. I did not get into a school like that but it would have helped me a lot). Finally, a smaller class size would be nice. In both my high school and college I knew most people but do not now.

Do you have any advice on how to select a suitable school? I know I'd be lucky to get into any school, but as a pre-med is there anything I can do to narrow down which schools would be best for me? I know I like being in smaller learning environments, where you get to build closer ties with those around you. I just transferred from a small college to a major university, and with 500+ students in every class I feel a little lost and lonely.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I chose my school based on location (although a location I do not like as much as I thought I would). Beyond cost, I would evaluate course load, test schedule and available resources.

Given my learning style, I wish I had gone to a place with a block schedule rather than a school with several tests every week as I need at least a mental half day of rest. I also would have chosen a school with more non-trad resources and less fluff to the cirriculum (worthless classes and activities that take away from your study time). Ideally, a place that allows you to transition back to school (my gfs school allowed them to take anatomy over the summer and have a lighter load in the fall first yr. I did not get into a school like that but it would have helped me a lot). Finally, a smaller class size would be nice. In both my high school and college I knew most people but do not now.

Block schedules have their benefit and so do having a fast paced weekly testing schedule. Regardless of which you are in you'll find both have their flaws and benefits. KCU tests every week and it can be tiring, but also I feel like it is doable.... Also generally it's fine to take the entire day off or half of it after a test without significant damage.

Regarding fluff, no matter where you go you're going to take a bioethics course. KCU takes required activities more seriously though, we get more standardized patients in our first year than some get before 3rd year. Good for us come COMLEX 2 though.

 

[mspeedwagon]

We just had an exam Friday then Monday now Thursday and again Monday. With two tests each wk you do not have any real down time. We also have required physician shadowing and several other fluffy things too. And lots of SPs. My gf went to a different med school and they had a lot of downtime to study. I would kill to have one test a wk or block tests!

Block schedules have their benefit and so do having a fast paced weekly testing schedule. Regardless of which you are in you'll find both have their flaws and benefits. KCU tests every week and it can be tiring, but also I feel like it is doable.... Also generally it's fine to take the entire day off or half of it after a test without significant damage.

Regarding fluff, no matter where you go you're going to take a bioethics course. KCU takes required activities more seriously though, we get more standardized patients in our first year than some get before 3rd year. Good for us come COMLEX 2 though.

 

[JustPlainBill]

I entered medical school with nothing more than comm. college pre-reqs. I was deathly afraid I would fail and/or be significantly below my classmates, many of whom had advance science degrees, attended ivy leagues, etc. I was a nervous wreck. Eight weeks in, and I'm nowhere near failing out.

I firmly believe its entirely within your control whether or not you fail out.

20 year old Degree from a "Slippery Rock State Teacher's College" type of place and then community college prereqs with multiple W's that went to F's on my record -- I struggled but graduated -- I had been a high performer but I think I let them get inside my head and tanked myself --- when the Associate Dean of Medical Education tells you that you don't belong there, you're not qualified and if it was up to them, you would've never been admitted, it tends to get to you --- especially when you psych yourself out telling yourself you really don't belong in this specialized haven of arcane knowledge only for the super-smart/super-qualified ivy leaguers ----

But hey, I did it ---

Back to the topic -- about 8-10% was the withdrawal rate where I went --- usually it was a mix of people who figured out early on that medicine and the type of commitment required wasn't for them -- had one leave after the first Biochem lecture -- she left at lunch and we never saw her again -- had another book after she figured out that medicine and OMM meant you actually had to touch people physically --- had one who was book smart but couldn't tell the difference between a vein and a nerve on a practical exam, hit neuro and went bye-bye ---- it does happen but only to small segment --

I made up my mind that the only way I was going out of there was either: on a stretcher in a body bag or graduating --- I didn't take No for an answer and did whatever I had to do to get it done ----

 

[yanks26dmb]

20 year old Degree from a "Slippery Rock State Teacher's College" type of place and then community college prereqs with multiple W's that went to F's on my record -- I struggled but graduated -- I had been a high performer but I think I let them get inside my head and tanked myself --- when the Associate Dean of Medical Education tells you that you don't belong there, you're not qualified and if it was up to them, you would've never been admitted, it tends to get to you --- especially when you psych yourself out telling yourself you really don't belong in this specialized haven of arcane knowledge only for the super-smart/super-qualified ivy leaguers ----

But hey, I did it ---

Back to the topic -- about 8-10% was the withdrawal rate where I went --- usually it was a mix of people who figured out early on that medicine and the type of commitment required wasn't for them -- had one leave after the first Biochem lecture -- she left at lunch and we never saw her again -- had another book after she figured out that medicine and OMM meant you actually had to touch people physically --- had one who was book smart but couldn't tell the difference between a vein and a nerve on a practical exam, hit neuro and went bye-bye ---- it does happen but only to small segment --

I made up my mind that the only way I was going out of there was either: on a stretcher in a body bag or graduating --- I didn't take No for an answer and did whatever I had to do to get it done ----

Congrats to you. I think there is something to be said for sheer determination and hard work. As mentioned, I have a lot of people with advanced science degrees, coming from prestigious universities, etc. in my class. Sure, maybe it takes me twice as long to learn something as compared to someone "smarter", but I put in my time, I'm consistent, and I remind myself I'm just going to outwork everyone. That's been my approach so far and I'm doing better than the vast majority of those "smarter" people. HOPEFULLY, this formula keeps working...but time will tell.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

We just had an exam Friday then Monday now Thursday and again Monday. With two tests each wk you do not have any real down time. We also have required physician shadowing and several other fluffy things too. And lots of SPs. My gf went to a different med school and they had a lot of downtime to study. I would kill to have one test a wk or block tests!

We have similar. It's hard but it's reasonable and it's the benefit of having a curve to compensate for issues related to lack of study time.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

Do you have any advice on how to select a suitable school? I know I'd be lucky to get into any school, but as a pre-med is there anything I can do to narrow down which schools would be best for me? I know I like being in smaller learning environments, where you get to build closer ties with those around you. I just transferred from a small college to a major university, and with 500+ students in every class I feel a little lost and lonely.

This advice may not work for you, but if I were to go back in time, mandatory attendance would be one of the most essential things to pay attention to when selecting a school.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

I chose my school based on location (although a location I do not like as much as I thought I would). Beyond cost, I would evaluate course load, test schedule and available resources.

Given my learning style, I wish I had gone to a place with a block schedule rather than a school with several tests every week as I need at least a mental half day of rest. I also would have chosen a school with more non-trad resources and less fluff to the cirriculum (worthless classes and activities that take away from your precious study time). Ideally, a place that allows you to transition back to school (my gfs school allowed them to take anatomy over the summer and have a lighter load in the fall first yr. I did not get into a school like that but it would have helped me a lot). Finally, a smaller class size would be nice. In both my high school and college I knew most people but do not now.

I feel you on both these points. A lot of times I feel like a fish out of water at my school and I can't blame anyone but myself. I choose the school, I had other options. I am slowly hitting my stride, but overall it just sucks. At least admin has been decently supportive, and gotten me tutors for my weak areas. And I finally have a study partner that's on my level (i.e. nontrad with family that doesn't have a previous PhD, masters, or some nonsense like that). I hope you do well!

And to the OP, I would very much agree with other posters that the 4 year completion rate is probably in the 80's for most DO programs (although the actual attrition rate, i.e. actual loss of students is lower). Just be glad that they don't just kick you out. Most DO schools at least try and support you. Well, at least mine does. IMO you are going to a DO school instead of the Caribbean because they will actually care if you are failing. They might force you to repeat a year, but at least you only pay for the classes you failed (I understand this is a federal thing, so should apply everywhere). Most Caribbean are happy to let you fail, recharge you, repeat and then fail out.

I think its important to read the Student Handbook and see how a given school deals with these issues, cause its really one of the most important things, if not the most important. Sadly not everyone can be 'above average' in a class with hundreds of people (especially a group of people who were for the most part, very above average in undergrad). That being said, prepare for the worst and hope for the best. If you can get in, you are probably capable of completing.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I'm still skeptical that more than 5% of students repeat year one and two combined. I can imagine 5-10% remediating a class over the summer however.

Honestly, I'm going to repeat what I said before. Medical school is hard, you're going to constantly worry about failing and or doing badly because of the high stakes of having 1 to 3 tests tops. But that being said it's very difficult to fail these classes when half the time a hard class only requires an average of around a 60-62% to minimally pass.

 

[kalat]

I'm still skeptical that more than 5% of students repeat year one and two combined. I can imagine 5-10% remediating a class over the summer however.

Honestly, I'm going to repeat what I said before. Medical school is hard, you're going to constantly worry about failing and or doing badly because of the high stakes of having 1 to 3 tests tops. But that being said it's very difficult to fail these classes when half the time a hard class only requires an average of around a 60-62% to minimally pass.

Huh? Are there schools that do this? It's >= 70% is a pass just like everywhere else AFAIK.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Huh? Are there schools that do this? It's >= 70% is a pass just like everywhere else AFAIK.

Before a curve. My school curves all our grades to an 85. Generally a very hard course will have between a 10-15% curve. A light course will have closer to a 5% curve.

 

[Seth Joo]

She went to the Carib, she's hardly even a real person. Use the brain bleach and erase that video from your mind.

Seriously though, most schools have around 1% attrition per year, and most of those students come back. 98-99% of your class, if you go to an American school, will graduate either with you or the year after.

That's MD schools, DO schools have higher attrition than that but generally lower than Caribbean schools.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

That's MD schools, DO schools have higher attrition than that but generally lower than Caribbean schools.

Generally all medical schools have about 5ish % attrition. Almost all of which is due either to crisis or not being into medicine anymore.

 

[Seth Joo]

Generally all medical schools have about 5ish % attrition. Almost all of which is due either to crisis or not being into medicine anymore.

Apparently a LUCOM student said over 10 percent of his class was no longer there, and most DO programs have around 5 percent or more attrition. MD schools will vary, and the upper league MD schools it will be negligible because they get the best students.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Apparently a LUCOM student said over 10 percent of his class was no longer there, and most DO programs have around 5 percent or more attrition. MD schools will vary, and the upper league MD schools it will be negligible because they get the best students.

Right, I'll make a side note that some schools have huge attrition on the DO side that I think are problematic. But overall we have some DO schools that have far better grad rates than most MD schools ex. LECOM.

 

[DocWinter]

[QUOTE="Seth Joo, post: 16955614, member: most DO programs have around 5 percent or more attrition. MD schools will vary, and the upper league MD schools it will be negligible because they get the best students.[/QUOTE]

Trying to get a flame war going there buddy?
My DO class has lost all of four from 162, and two of then were to illness/personal. Most DO schools (let's not count LUCOM as most is us don't recognize them as a real DO school anyway) have attrition rates of 2-3%, which is also about the average of MD

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

[QUOTE="Seth Joo, post: 16955614, member: most DO programs have around 5 percent or more attrition. MD schools will vary, and the upper league MD schools it will be negligible because they get the best students.

Trying to get a flame war going there buddy?
My DO class has lost all of four from 162, and two of then were to illness/personal. Most DO schools (let's not count LUCOM as most is us don't recognize them as a real DO school anyway) have attrition rates of 2-3%, which is also about the average of MD[/QUOTE]


It really always depends on the class at hand. Schools can have wildly variable retention rate from year to year i.e a school might have 96% one year and then 89% the next despite having a higher gpa/mcat. This implies that it's not like that students are stupider and more likely to fail out. But rather that somewhere a long the line they probably encounter specific problems to themselves that result in their leaving.

I know at KCU we lost a few ppl within the first few weeks. They simply decided the commitment wasn't for them and that they would be better off not being doctors.

 

[Seth Joo]

Right, I'll make a side note that some schools have huge attrition on the DO side that I think are problematic. But overall we have some DO schools that have far better grad rates than most MD schools ex. LECOM.

KCU is one of the better DO schools, but yes some schools have higher rates than others, I believe at most schools it is around 5 percent which is not that bad, this also includes students who wind up decelerating, those who take an extra year to complete their studies.

 

[surfguy84]

Before a curve. My school curves all our grades to an 85. Generally a very hard course will have between a 10-15% curve. A light course will have closer to a 5% curve.

Wow, we have no curve at my school. 70 is required to pass, period.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Wow, we have no curve at my school. 70 is required to pass, period.

Yah, if we had that policy about 30-40% of our class would fail since our tests are generally 'boards' style and pretty hard.

But I'd rather more chill tests over harder ones with a curve.

 

[Seth Joo]

Trying to get a flame war going there buddy?
My DO class has lost all of four from 162, and two of then were to illness/personal. Most DO schools (let's not count LUCOM as most is us don't recognize them as a real DO school anyway) have attrition rates of 2-3%, which is also about the average of MD

I know at my school its around 5 percent, but my school can be a pressure cooker, we have a quarter system rather than a semester, and we have weekly exams rather than blocks so you have to study constantly. Many students wind up decelerating as a result, but that being said I think the actual number that leave is very small. Some people think this is kind of mean on the school's part but in reality they want us to do well on the boards and our school's students have one of highest pass rates, I got a friend who goes to a school with a semester system and traditional block exams that is more relaxed in comparison but they are more on their own when it comes to preparing for board examinations.

 

[ortnakas]

I know at my school its around 5 percent, but my school can be a pressure cooker, we have a quarter system rather than a semester, and we have weekly exams rather than blocks so you have to study constantly.

All med schools are pressure cookers; there aren't easy ones, it's a "pick your poison" scenario. We have block exams, but if you think that means we don't also study constantly you're very much mistaken.

 

[Seth Joo]

All med schools are pressure cookers; there aren't easy ones, it's a "pick your poison" scenario. We have block exams, but if you think that means we don't also study constantly you're very much mistaken.

AZCOM is particularly the case, most medical schools run on the semester system, AZCOM upped the pressure by using the quarter system, and also having exams every Monday. So as students we never really had a weekend of our own to do anything but study, the first two years of medical school was like a boxing match.

 

[surfguy84]

Yah, if we had that policy about 30-40% of our class would fail since our tests are generally 'boards' style and pretty hard.

But I'd rather more chill tests over harder ones with a curve.

I thought all schools used 3rd (and even 4th) order board style questions? We certainly do.

 

[surfguy84]

AZCOM is particularly the case, most medical schools run on the semester system, AZCOM upped the pressure by using the quarter system, and also having exams every Monday. So as students we never really had a weekend of our own to do anything but study, the first two years of medical school was like a boxing match.

I particularly like the block style exams...yeah, you study all the time as it is, but you dont have the pressure of an impending exam every week.

 

[Mjolner]

Yah, if we had that policy about 30-40% of our class would fail since our tests are generally 'boards' style and pretty hard.

But I'd rather more chill tests over harder ones with a curve.

Ours are board style and no curve 70% if you want to pass.

I'd rather be tested hard all the way through and not be surprised in two years.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Ours are board style and no curve 70% if you want to pass.

I'd rather be tested hard all the way through and not be surprised in two years.

I mean, true enough. I'm in anatomy atm, so I kinda want to just be asked what a bone is and be done with it and get a cookie.

 

[Mjolner]

I mean, true enough. I'm in anatomy atm, so I kinda want to just be asked what a bone is and be done with it and get a cookie.

A bone is the sharp thing that rips you glove if you're not careful (and your lab partner isn't handy with a bone saw) when you're dissecting the mediastinum.