False greed??

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DAMN THOSE FOREIGN DOCTORS!

:laugh:

The medical profession is, on average, the most lucrative profession in the USA. Not much else to say.
 
Dude, anyone who's spent five minutes in the world or on SDN who only wanted the money changed their mind quick fast and in a hurry.
 
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theres a reason people say not to go in to medicine for the money.
 
Is doing medicine a real good financial decision?No, it's not I have friends who are already making close to 100k after being out of school in 2/3 years in engineering/IT fields, I do not see how financially it is a good decision to do medicine. A regular doc after 10 years of schools/training only makes close to 150k and some in metro areas actually make much less. Is it a false greed that is driving this rush to med schools? YESAny views? Your concerns are valid. The opportunity cost of medical training is immense and underappreciatedThere is imminent threat of outsourcing and foreign medical doctors also that can bring down salaries with globalization.

see my response in bold
 
Is doing medicine a real good financial decision? I have friends who are already making close to 100k after being out of school in 2/3 years in engineering/IT fields, I do not see how financially it is a good decision to do medicine. A regular doc after 10 years of schools/training only makes close to 150k and some in metro areas actually make much less. Is it a false greed that is driving this rush to med schools? Any views? There is imminent threat of outsourcing and foreign medical doctors also that can bring down salaries with globalization.

Well, I have a bunch of engineering friends that are out of a job because of the economy (I was actually an engineer before med school). While you can make good money in various fields, medicine is one of the few that guarantees that. There is a ton of job security, and stability in life.

Also, while a good majority of docs swing in the 100K-200 K range, there are still many specialties that can make bank. Some docs make over 300K-500K, some even close to a million. Yes those are specialties that are more competitve and harder to get into, but my guess is that those who would have made a ton of money doing somehting else would be among the most competitive in any field they go into.

With all that said, unless you absolotely love medicine, you'll hate your life during school/training and maybe even there after. While there is good money, 1) extremely good money isn't for everyone in the field and 2) the path is so long (before you make any real money) that you better have alternative motives to keep you going.
 
Dude, the only reason for money is to get you a house, a car, and food for your family. Why would you need that much money anyway? If so many people can live with less than $100k per year, then so can I.
 
You gotta work for it...probably a lot harder than in any other profession. You lose your youth to the career and that opportunity cost is never coming back. If you make it through, you'll end up with long hours and good pay in a very stable field. That's all I have to say.
 
I dont care about money. I'll have an awesome job and deal with real people and lives. Also the knowledge is cool; somewhere along the way ill be compensated for my good work. There is also respect and everyone says they wish they could do this. No IT cubicle monkey has that. My buddies are 22 and make great money but i just feel bad because they really dont love it. Its just a fast track job and they have way too much time to spend all their money on flashy stuff. No thanks.
 
Speaking as a current IT cubicle monkey - I completely endorse the above. I'll probably make less as a doctor than I do now (counting Opportunity Cost), but whatever. You live once. I don't want to be 70 and look back regretting what I did. Maybe I'll regret medicine, same as IT, but you can only make the best decision with the information you have now. Right now, I'm excited. I am not going in with the hopes of making a lot of money, and I think I'm going in for the right reasons. Not necessarily because I'm channeling Mother Teresa, but I find the subjects very interesting and would rather do that for a living than crank out assembler programs, I've done some research and would love to do more, and I think I'd enjoy patient care. Selfish reasons, but they work for me. If I make what I make now, after subtracting loan payments, I'll be fine. I'm a non-trad, so I know what I need to live, and if I'm making $100k-$120k or so, that's fine by me. My parents work 7 days a week for 12 hours and make $35,000 each in a job they hate. I'm lucky to have a choice.
 
I too almost slipped into that mindset. I don't have any regrets for not going straight to medical school like a true gunner, but I am glad I had the opportunity to explore other careers and realize what was right for me. Sure, I could have settled quickly into a high paying, sellout profession (ie, development) and make a lota loot, but I think after a while I would go insane working that way.

My theory is that if you grow up thinking that you'd like to go out 4 nights a week when you are in your 20's, don't be pre-med. Those drinks and cover charges add up! Not to mention mostly a huge waste of time and ... well, potential. I had that lifestyle for a little bit and it got old and money wont quench your calling.

Right now I am just excited to have the opportunity to do things that are not only interesting but important.
 
Lol!

ITT: People who are going to be earning in the 95th percentile claiming that the money in medicine is:

A) Poor.
B) Unneeded.
 
Dude, the only reason for money is to get you a house, a car, and food for your family. Why would you need that much money anyway? If so many people can live with less than $100k per year, then so can I.

not with twice that in loans.

Ignorant children permeate this forum, bah!
 
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not with twice that in loans.

Ignorant children permeate this forum, bah!

Actually, they do. Mortgage is frequently that high or higher. And we're talking about two people.
 
not with twice that in loans.

the student debt issue seems to be worsening, yes, but it's still manageable. a significant portion of young doctors receive loan deferment and forbearance during their internships, residencies, and advanced training. you will still owe around $100,000 (on average), but the monthly payments pale in comparison to what you earn after all your training is completed.

we've heard examples of all your wealthy friends, so let me tell you about my not-so-wealthy friends. only a few years out of undergrad, they earn less than $40,000/yr, and you'd never know they had $30,000 worth of student loans they were paying off unless you asked. if they can manage loans that equal more than 75% of their yearly salary, i think doctors can manage loans that equal about 25 to 70% of their salary.

anyway, different people go into different careers for different reasons. there are also different costs/benefits to different careers and you can't really just compare engineer/IT/doctor/teacher/attorney occupations based on salary alone (even though some people may largely base their career on this factor).

OP, have you thought of this: your engineer friends may be earning more now, but somewhere down the road, maybe 25 years or so, Dr. Hale would surpass them in the "net earnings" category. what's more important to you: making money now, or later? and if money is so important to you, maybe you should be thinking of alternate careers... YET, i have never met a physician that is NOT financially very well-off. so maybe you should be a doctor afterall.
 
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not with twice that in loans.

Ignorant children permeate this forum, bah!

It's entirely possible to pay off med school debt over time with a $100k salary. Talk about ignorance. :rolleyes:
 
I have yet to meet a poor or unemployed doctor.

Unemployed/little-earning/unsatisfied engineers and businessmen are a dime a dozen.
 
the student debt issue seems to be worsening, yes, but it's still manageable. a significant portion of young doctors receive loan deferment and forbearance during their internships, residencies, and advanced training. you will still owe around $100,000 (on average), but the monthly payments pale in comparison to what you earn after all your training is completed.
They changed the rules, kiddo. We probably won't get that.
 
I dont care about money. I'll have an awesome job and deal with real people and lives. Also the knowledge is cool; somewhere along the way ill be compensated for my good work. There is also respect and everyone says they wish they could do this. No IT cubicle monkey has that. My buddies are 22 and make great money but i just feel bad because they really dont love it. Its just a fast track job and they have way too much time to spend all their money on flashy stuff. No thanks.


Oh man. Stop it! Yer' killin' me!

Just FYI, you will not be compensated for your "good work" primarily because the entities that pay you are ambivalent to how much or how little good you actually do. One thing I have learned from interviewing for my first post-residency job is that American Medicine is mostly a vast meat-grinder into which are fed patients and out of which is charged so much for each pound of processed patient. You may care about your patients but the goal of your employer will be to leave as little collectible money "on the table" as possible" while the insurance comnpanies and the Government continuously think of new ways to keep money off the table in the first place.

This Mother****er is a fairly decent job all thing considered but not if you remove the financial incentive. You may also, hard as it is to believe now, actually dislike the practice of medicine.
 
the student debt issue seems to be worsening, yes, but it's still manageable.

WeAreNotRobots said:
i think doctors can manage loans that equal about 25 to 70% of their salary.

Yayyyy!!! We can still manage!!! Victory!!!

Jesus, I've never seen a group of people so happy about being robbed.
 
the student debt issue seems to be worsening, yes, but it's still manageable. a significant portion of young doctors receive loan deferment and forbearance during their internships, residencies, and advanced training. you will still owe around $100,000 (on average), but the monthly payments pale in comparison to what you earn after all your training is completed.

we've heard examples of all your wealthy friends, so let me tell you about my not-so-wealthy friends. only a few years out of undergrad, they earn less than $40,000/yr, and you'd never know they had $30,000 worth of student loans they were paying off unless you asked. if they can manage loans that equal more than 75% of their yearly salary, i think doctors can manage loans that equal about 25 to 70% of their salary.

anyway, different people go into different careers for different reasons. there are also different costs/benefits to different careers and you can't really just compare engineer/IT/doctor/teacher/attorney occupations based on salary alone (even though some people may largely base their career on this factor).

OP, have you thought of this: your engineer friends may be earning more now, but somewhere down the road, maybe 25 years or so, Dr. Hale would surpass them in the "net earnings" category. what's more important to you: making money now, or later? and if money is so important to you, maybe you should be thinking of alternate careers... YET, i have never met a physician that is NOT financially very well-off. so maybe you should be a doctor afterall.

Your comparison is pretty crappy. Your estimation of debt is under the average, and your really not taking into account the cost-opportunity of time.

First, your not so wealthy friend earning 40,000 probably are not as driven, intelligent, or hardworking as pre-meds are. I have friends that earn from 45,000-65,000 right out of school. The difference between to two is my friend earning 65,000 probably could make it through the pre-med regiment, I seriously doubt my other friend could.

Second, my friend earning 65,000 gets a ton of benefits. He just called me this morning from columbia (his company paid for the flight). He travels every weekend and gets to expense it and they pay for most of his room and board.

Why i bring it up is he has all the money from his salary sitting in an IRA, mutual funds, etc. earning more money. While med students will all be in debt for 4 years and eventually earning interest. From what I hear we wont even be able to defer payments through residency anymore.

Maybe he'll reach a lower ceiling, in his current job, but i highly doubt he will end up in the same job for the rest of his life. He'll learn what he can and move onto better things. While my other friend will be a cubicle jockey probably for the rest of his life.
 
Yayyyy!!! We can still manage!!! Victory!!!

Jesus, I've never seen a group of people so happy about being robbed.

Robbed? You are receiving the best education in the world in order to have one of the most respected, well-paid, secure jobs available! Do you really think you deserve that for free? It's called responsibility: you might be required to have some of that as a doctor.

1. as for "Apparently you have never met a doctor with licensure problems, or a doctor who developed health problems that made it difficult to work, or a doctor who developed psychiatric/addiction problems."

this can be the case for almost any occupation. doctors are people and these rare cases happen. i once knew a doctor that died! that sure put her out of work!

2. "They changed the rules, kiddo. We probably won't get that."

yep, you were right.
http://www.nextstudent.com/student-loan-blog/blogs/sample_weblog/archive/2008/06/10/782.aspx
 
First, your not so wealthy friend earning 40,000 probably are not as driven, intelligent, or hardworking as pre-meds are....

Why i bring it up is he has all the money from his salary sitting in an IRA, mutual funds, etc. earning more money...

actually, my friend is pretty intelligent and hardworking because he was pre-med, but now he's MS0. there's not much money to made in research with just a BS. and just because he doesn't make a lot doesn't mean he's dumb and lazy.

and if you think you're getting screwed with med school, then don't do it. nothing worth doing is easy.
 

Yes, robbed. We undertake the arduous and expensive task of becoming physicians with an implicit confidence in our future income and job security. However, for a number of years we have watched revenue erode, overhead skyrocket, and educational costs mount. The normal human response would be to protect one's livelihood, but only in pre-allo do we see people not only accepting of the current situation, but apparently happy about it.

WeAreNotRobots said:
It's called responsibility: you might be required to have some of that as a doctor.

Condescension: you might want to refrain from engaging in it as your training progresses.

Sincerely,

Gut Shot, MD, PhD
 
When you have a $300K debt, you'll look differently at the importance of your salary. It is not all about money, but money does make a difference. If you have so much debt on top of trying to have a decent car, home, and life (wife + kids), you'll find that without proper salary, you will have a tough time doing any significant volunteer work. The more well off you are financially, the more useful volunteer services you will be able to provide - especially if you have to pay for it out of pocket.

On the positive side, not all specialties and job locations are the same in terms of salary. I recently heard of an ophthalmology resident who was ecstatic since he got a job at a hospital and was told that within a few years his salary will be over $1mln. So if money is important for you, choose a specialty that you like that has a high average salary and also be prepared to work in strategic geographic locations to maximize your income - such as working in states with low or no state income tax or avoiding states where heavy saturation of doctors drives the salaries down in some specialties (such as NYC). Doctors don't have low or even average incomes, but your income, and more importantly how much of that income you retain, depends mainly on you. If you are bad with money, even millions won't be enough for you.
 
I don't blame doctors who go private practice, or forgo insurance altogether. They may be greedy in the eyes of plenty but I think a lot of it has to do with their lifestyle - they can finally control their work and they don't have to worry about how many dollars are stuck b/c they wont be able to pay off a huge debt.

That too, is why a lot of doctors get the greed stamp on them - because there is a huge discrepancy in the pay for family docs and those who super-specialize and earn close to 10x the annual pay. Again, I don't blame them.
 
Is doing medicine a real good financial decision? I have friends who are already making close to 100k after being out of school in 2/3 years in engineering/IT fields, I do not see how financially it is a good decision to do medicine. A regular doc after 10 years of schools/training only makes close to 150k and some in metro areas actually make much less. Is it a false greed that is driving this rush to med schools? Any views? There is imminent threat of outsourcing and foreign medical doctors also that can bring down salaries with globalization.

It's greedy to want wealth?
 
madoff_bernard_01.jpg


wealth is good... just dont get too nutz!
 
It's greedy to want wealth?

The biggest thing I learned from working in finance: Beyond the basics, money doesn't matter IF you can keep yourself from worrying about what everyone else is making and who has it better than you.

This is a big if. I believe that many people would be entirely satisfied with their lifestyles in a vacuum, but can't handle it if someone makes more than they do for apparently less work. I know I couldn't stand to be worked 80 hours a week and make less than 1/30 of what my 20hr/week boss made, even though I was very comfortable. I got over it, but it took some time.

I have a feeling that medicine can be pretty crushing if you think like this. On the other hand, if you can pull yourself out of the mental pissing contest, I believe that you can probably be pretty happy as a doctor. Easier said than done though.
 
Sincerely,

Gut Shot, MD, PhD

you're a MD/PhD!?? you should've done the MSTP! i hear they cover all your tuition.

but seriously, everyone wants more money for what they do. and i think doctors turn out a lot better off than most in the end.
 
actually, my friend is pretty intelligent and hardworking because he was pre-med, but now he's MS0. there's not much money to made in research with just a BS. and just because he doesn't make a lot doesn't mean he's dumb and lazy.

and if you think you're getting screwed with med school, then don't do it. nothing worth doing is easy.

well in that case ur comparison is even dumber than i thought. Your comparing an interim job with a few weeks training to a job with 7 years training.
 
you're a MD/PhD!?? you should've done the MSTP! i hear they cover all your tuition.

but seriously, everyone wants more money for what they do. and i think doctors turn out a lot better off than most in the end.

all your doing is comparing end salary when everyone is telling you there is much more to it than that.
 
you're a MD/PhD!?? you should've done the MSTP! i hear they cover all your tuition.

I should have done just MD. Oh well, live and learn.

WeAreNotRobots said:
but seriously, everyone wants more money for what they do. and i think doctors turn out a lot better off than most in the end.

That's true, but no excuse for complacency when there are forces launching repeated, organized assaults aimed at reducing our pay (both now and in the future). The moment you're comfortable with $150,000, they'll start looking at ways to make it $100,000, and so on.
 
well in that case ur comparison is even dumber than i thought. Your comparing an interim job with a few weeks training to a job with 7 years training.

easy there. my point is that you can pay off A LOT of loans even with a relatively low income.

now, without name-calling, what is your point?
 
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easy there. my point is that you can pay off A LOT of loans even with a relatively low income.

now, without name-calling, what is your point?

i didnt call u any names i just said ur argument was dumb. My point is that your comparing apples to oranges. You earn a good salary as a doctor because you put in years of hard training and after that training you work long hours. There's not many careers where the training is as long and arduous and those that are are also well paying.

So the crux of what i am saying is that u cant compare the pay from a job you got after a 4 years B.S. to a job that was 4 years B.S. (while being maintaing good grades), 4 years Med school, and then 3-7 years residency.

Another point i was making is that you could do alot with that 7 years in some other field, while in medicine your a building a foundation but also gaining alot of debt.
 
I don't blame doctors who go private practice, or forgo insurance altogether. They may be greedy in the eyes of plenty but I think a lot of it has to do with their lifestyle - they can finally control their work and they don't have to worry about how many dollars are stuck b/c they wont be able to pay off a huge debt.

That too, is why a lot of doctors get the greed stamp on them - because there is a huge discrepancy in the pay for family docs and those who super-specialize and earn close to 10x the annual pay. Again, I don't blame them.


Doctors also go into strict private practice, taking no insurance of any kind including Medicaid and Medicare, to avoid the absolutley stifling bureaucracy which comes with asking for money from a "third party" and not the patient. You all have no idea. The only real growth industry in our country now is bureaucracy and I have no doubt that if I were unshackled from truly staggering mountains of paperwork required to evaluate and treat the simplest patient I could double the number of patients I see during a shift.

Won't happen. We have just elected a government that thrives on "initiative," "interventions," and other government schemes thought up in the febrile brains of the policy wonkatariat. Watch for the paperwork, bureaucracy, oversight, compliance requirements and every other thing detracting from actual patient care to explode in the next few years until the whole ridiculous system collapses.
 
So the crux of what i am saying is that u cant compare the pay from a job you got after a 4 years B.S. to a job that was 4 years B.S. (while being maintaing good grades), 4 years Med school, and then 3-7 years residency.

Another point i was making is that you could do alot with that 7 years in some other field, while in medicine your a building a foundation but also gaining alot of debt.

exactly! the pay you get with a BS plus those 7-10 yrs experience doesn't compare to the pay after your training is done in residency ...what you get as a doctor is more!

PLUS, even with the opportunity costs of going through residency, you will soon recover those losses and so much more in a number of years after you start practicing.

my points-- that loan payments do not obliterate you during residency, and that doctors make more over the long term-- still stand.
 
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