FAQ: What are my chances?

[drizzt3117]

Def apply to the LA area community programs as well as Cottage, LLU, etc. My guess is it'll be tough going but there's no sense in not trying. I would apply to at least 60-80 programs nationwide.

Hello Everyone,

I was wondering if you guys can help me out.

I'm currently a third year Osteopathic student

USMLE Step 1: 246
Comlex: not received yet

Research: 1 paper, co-author set to be published in a major journal (Radiology relevant)
1 abstract

Top 10% of my class

I know I'm currently at a handicap considering that I am a DO student but I'm wondering what you guys think regarding which programs I should consider/apply for and my chances.

I was born and raised in Southern California. I would love to go to a program in SoCal but I'm also aware how unlikely that is. Of course I wouldn't apply to UCLA, UCSF or any of the top programs. But I'm interested in Loma Linda, Kaiser Los Angeles, Cedars. I'm also considering programs in Texas and Florida, but I am not too fond of the Northeast or Midwest.

If you guys can give me some advice to strengthen my application as well that would be great!

Thank you!

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[deleted103644]

Def apply to the LA area community programs as well as Cottage, LLU, etc. My guess is it'll be tough going but there's no sense in not trying. I would apply to at least 60-80 programs nationwide.

Apply to the academic programs too. It's a long shot, but if they offer you an interview you might get it. An extra $200 for 8 more apps is nothing.

 

[drizzt3117]

Apply to the academic programs too. It's a long shot, but if they offer you an interview you might get it. An extra $200 for 8 more apps is nothing.

Yeah it probably wouldn't hurt. I think it's highly unlikely (<1%) they'd get an interview at Ucla or UCSF, but you can't get it if you don't apply. UCSD actually matched a DO student a couple years back, so perhaps chances are higher there.

 

[studentdoc911]

.

 

[drizzt3117]

No, that's probably not ok, most places want two letters from patient care preceptors.

Random q about rec letters. I'll be getting the following:

1 from medicine rotation director
1 rsch from non-rads attending that resulted in a publication
1 from rad rsch at well-known hospital that resulted in a rads publication
1 (maybe) from rads attending I worked with/did some research with.. abstract got accepted at conference

Is that OK? I don't have an extra clinical one. I mean I can try and get one from a private practice peds attending I worked with. But I don't think it would be that strong.

 

[meister]

Agreed, definitely two clinical letters plus a rads is the best way to go. If you have substantive research then you can add a research letter. One rads letter plus three research letters is kind of a red-flag in my opinion...I would not do that.

 

[ben123]

I am starting to think about the number and type of schools that I should be applying to for the upcoming year. I've heard that the whole process is very competitive and random as well but was wondering if someone who has gone through it can shed some light on what kind of schools would be reasonable choices or even those that might be beyond my reach. I would also greatly appreciate it if I could get some advice on things to work on for the next few months. Thanks in advance guys and gals!

School: east coast mid tier
Step 1: 261; taking step 2 in october
Preclinical: most honors and 2 HP
Rotation grades: H in peds, medicine, family medicine, neuro and psych; HP in OB; surgery grade not yet in
AOA: Yes
Research: no publications yet, working on a couple of projects with a rads attending and may or may not publish in the next year; did a summer research project between M1 and M2 but did not get any publications or posters out of it; did biomed engineering in undergrad and worked on a yr long med related design project that I could or could not mention?
LORs: planning on getting 1-2 from IM, 1 from peds clerkship director, 1 from the rads attending mentioned above and 1 from the rads chair at my institution who I am doing a 4 wk rotation with and hope to have her know me well enough
Other: have had some leadership positions and extracurriculars during medschool

 

[drizzt3117]

Sounds like a strong app, I'd pick 40 mid and top tier programs and call it a day. The lack of research could hurt at the very top tier but I bet you'll get interviews at a lot of good programs.

I am starting to think about the number and type of schools that I should be applying to for the upcoming year. I've heard that the whole process is very competitive and random as well but was wondering if someone who has gone through it can shed some light on what kind of schools would be reasonable choices or even those that might be beyond my reach. I would also greatly appreciate it if I could get some advice on things to work on for the next few months. Thanks in advance guys and gals!

School: east coast mid tier
Step 1: 261; taking step 2 in october
Preclinical: most honors and 2 HP
Rotation grades: H in peds, medicine, family medicine, neuro and psych; HP in OB; surgery grade not yet in
AOA: Yes
Research: no publications yet, working on a couple of projects with a rads attending and may or may not publish in the next year; did a summer research project between M1 and M2 but did not get any publications or posters out of it; did biomed engineering in undergrad and worked on a yr long med related design project that I could or could not mention?
LORs: planning on getting 1-2 from IM, 1 from peds clerkship director, 1 from the rads attending mentioned above and 1 from the rads chair at my institution who I am doing a 4 wk rotation with and hope to have her know me well enough
Other: have had some leadership positions and extracurriculars during medschool

 

[deleted103644]

just trying to see where I sit after getting done with 3rd year. DO student from VA.

Pre clinical: low 3.4 GPA. no class rank.
Step 1: 240 USMLE
Clinical: Honors in everything except HP in my first rotation (surgery) and geriatrics.
Step 2: should get scores back next week.
LORs: strong ones (I believe) from Surgery, IM PD from no-name residency program, and a Wake Forest Interventional Radiologist.
Research: put out an abstract to a crappy journal. hoping to get on board and help pump out a case report or two my next rotation doing an IR elective.

Not sure how competitive I am. My Step 1 isn't strong enough to offset me being a D.O. student, and not sure how my low preclinical GPA will affect me. No leadership activities, little research and obviously not AOA because I'm a D.O. (our SSP is service based, not merit.) Dunno my Step 2 score yet, but just wondering if I have any shot in hell at places in big cities like NYC or Chicago.

Also, if I'm able to get involved with publishable research, would I be able to use a 4th radiology LOR as a research LOR?

You're a long shot for anything decent in NYC, and less familiar but would wager a longer shot for Chicago (since there are fewer programs).

There are a couple of bad NYC programs that would be within reach, but in your shoes I would focus on Midwest and South - you'll get a lot more bang for your competitive buck there.

 

[deleted103644]

thanks for the healthy dose of realism. is there anything I can be doing to improve my chances, i.e. research? how much can an improvement in my step 2 score do? and how "bad" is bad, haha when referring to the NYC programs. at this rate, with my luck, i'll prob just apply to every single program out there and see what nibbles i get.

Don't expect any academic programs, and the better community programs (eg St Luke's, Beth Israel) are probably reaches as well.

If you beefed up your research credentials you might have luck with Winthrop, and Staten Island may be gun shy after scrambling 2 spots this year and would probably interview you.

Harlem, NUMC, and Richmond are fair game, but they should all be shuttered.

 

[deleted103644]

all that's going through my head right now is...

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCFB2akLh4s[/YOUTUBE]

thanks for the advice.

It's not quite that bad, but NYC is particularly DO unfriendly (and SGU friendly for the lower tier programs, for various reasons).

You will do much better in the Midwest, although maybe not Chicago.

That said, apply broadly. You never know and applications are cheap relative to med school (if you get to that point, be selective with interviews since those do get expensive).

If I were in your shoes, I would apply to every NYC and every Chicago program, as well as a good number of Midwest and maybe Southern community/lower tier academic programs.

 

[Substance]

I am starting to think about the number and type of schools that I should be applying to for the upcoming year. I’ve heard that the whole process is very competitive and random as well but was wondering if someone who has gone through it can shed some light on what kind of schools would be reasonable choices or even those that might be beyond my reach. I would also greatly appreciate it if I could get some advice on things to work on for the next few months. Thanks in advance guys and gals!

School: east coast mid tier
Step 1: 261; taking step 2 in october
Preclinical: most honors and 2 HP
Rotation grades: H in peds, medicine, family medicine, neuro and psych; HP in OB; surgery grade not yet in
AOA: Yes
Research: no publications yet, working on a couple of projects with a rads attending and may or may not publish in the next year; did a summer research project between M1 and M2 but did not get any publications or posters out of it; did biomed engineering in undergrad and worked on a yr long med related design project that I could or could not mention?
LORs: planning on getting 1-2 from IM, 1 from peds clerkship director, 1 from the rads attending mentioned above and 1 from the rads chair at my institution who I am doing a 4 wk rotation with and hope to have her know me well enough
Other: have had some leadership positions and extracurriculars during medschool

I often wonder if these are legitimate posts.

 

[drizzt3117]

It's not quite that bad, but NYC is particularly DO unfriendly (and SGU friendly for the lower tier programs, for various reasons).

You will do much better in the Midwest, although maybe not Chicago.

That said, apply broadly. You never know and applications are cheap relative to med school (if you get to that point, be selective with interviews since those do get expensive).

If I were in your shoes, I would apply to every NYC and every Chicago program, as well as a good number of Midwest and maybe Southern community/lower tier academic programs.

I'd apply broadly but not bother applying to places like NYU, Northwestern, Cornell, etc. I'd apply to every NYC/Chicago community program and some academic programs like monti, etc. I think the OPs chances at a Chicago academic program like UIC, Rush, etc are significantly higher than a NYC program, if still small.

 

[deleted103644]

I'd apply broadly but not bother applying to places like NYU, Northwestern, Cornell, etc. I'd apply to every NYC/Chicago community program and some academic programs like monti, etc. I think the OPs chances at a Chicago academic program like UIC, Rush, etc are significantly higher than a NYC program, if still small.

No shot at Monte/Sinai/Columbia and less than nil at NYU/Cornell, although still worth applying in case it's even more uncompetitive next year or a miracle happens.

NYMC, NSLIJ, UMDNJ, RWJ, SUNY Downstate are within the realm of possibility, but still slim.

 

[ben123]

I often wonder if these are legitimate posts.

it was actually a legitimate post man...but i guess I am wondering if I would be competitive at the top 10-15 programs especially considering my lack of publications and the fact that my step 2 score will not be back until later and programs will have ppl who have done well on step 1 and 2...also, i m not from a top 20 or 30 medical school

 

[DrBowtie]

not really asking for the world guys...dunno why effort is wasted mentioning my chances at NYU/Cornell/etc. i know i'm not ultra-competitive (see step1 261 guy a few posts back), i just want to be a radiologist, and know my best bet is a community program if i want to break into a big city (not just nyc/chicago, anywhere...everywhere...pacific nw, cali, boston, florida, texas.) just hope i have a good shot at landing a program that's not malignant and somewhere i can learn a thing or two...but given the decline in applicants last year (and increase in unfilled spots?), would i be totally out of my mind to seriously apply everywhere bearable? i'm not kidding...

though i guess the point of me posting at all was to see if anyone had any pointers for some good community programs for me to focus on.

Hmm. If you are interested in IR, I think UIllinois Peoria might be a decent fit. Less than 3 hours to Chicago and they take quite a few DOs.

Beaumont and Ford in Detroit are also very solid community programs, not sure how competitive they will be this year since they didnt fill, but they have been pretty competitive in years past.

If you are willing to go to non-desirable locales, you probably would be able to lock up a lower academic program in the south.

 

[DrBowtie]

it was actually a legitimate post man...but i guess I am wondering if I would be competitive at the top 10-15 programs especially considering my lack of publications and the fact that my step 2 score will not be back until later and programs will have ppl who have done well on step 1 and 2...also, i m not from a top 20 or 30 medical school

You'll probably get some of those top 10-15 places to interview you. Matching is such a crapshoot though. You still have time to knockout some sort of case report or something just to try to fill in that part of your app.

 

[buccsmf1]

when you guys mention these "malignant," "terrible," "awful," programs, what exactly do you mean by that? Board pass rate seems like the most important factor when considering some of the lower tier programs. Are we talking pass rate of like 70-80%? Or is the problem job prospects after graduation? Something else?

I posted here earlier, and being a borderline DO applicant, I'll more than likely be at one of these lower tier programs if I do commit to the rads match.

Just curious as there aren't really any "bad" MD medical schools.

 

[drizzt3117]

It probably wouldn't be a terrible idea to apply to every program that's not top 25 (you can add Pittsburgh and Dartmouth if you want). Unlike jd I think you're just wasting time applying to top programs but it'd be totally reasonable to apply to every other one and see what happens. That being said, with your stats I'd personally pick about 80 programs in a broad geographic area, with about half community and half low/mid tier academic.

not really asking for the world guys...dunno why effort is wasted mentioning my chances at NYU/Cornell/etc. i know i'm not ultra-competitive (see step1 261 guy a few posts back), i just want to be a radiologist, and know my best bet is a community program if i want to break into a big city (not just nyc/chicago, anywhere...everywhere...pacific nw, cali, boston, florida, texas.) just hope i have a good shot at landing a program that's not malignant and somewhere i can learn a thing or two...but given the decline in applicants last year (and increase in unfilled spots?), would i be totally out of my mind to seriously apply everywhere bearable? i'm not kidding...

though i guess the point of me posting at all was to see if anyone had any pointers for some good community programs for me to focus on.

 

[killinsound]

it was actually a legitimate post man...but i guess I am wondering if I would be competitive at the top 10-15 programs especially considering my lack of publications and the fact that my step 2 score will not be back until later and programs will have ppl who have done well on step 1 and 2...also, i m not from a top 20 or 30 medical school

You would be pretty average at most of those programs without any big research. I had similar/slightly better stats last season (predicted to be less competitive than this season) with 2 research pubs. I applied to most of the top 10-15 except for the ones that are really cold - UMich, mayo, etc. and got about 30% of them. You should expect around there or slightly less depending on the competitiveness.

 

[drizzt3117]

it was actually a legitimate post man...but i guess I am wondering if I would be competitive at the top 10-15 programs especially considering my lack of publications and the fact that my step 2 score will not be back until later and programs will have ppl who have done well on step 1 and 2...also, i m not from a top 20 or 30 medical school

Research and pedigree make a pretty big difference. I went to a top 25 and had about the same stats as you with much more research and got interviews at about 75% of the top 15.

 

[deleted103644]

when you guys mention these "malignant," "terrible," "awful," programs, what exactly do you mean by that? Board pass rate seems like the most important factor when considering some of the lower tier programs. Are we talking pass rate of like 70-80%? Or is the problem job prospects after graduation? Something else?

I posted here earlier, and being a borderline DO applicant, I'll more than likely be at one of these lower tier programs if I do commit to the rads match.

Just curious as there aren't really any "bad" MD medical schools.

There are many more hospitals than medical schools, and some of the ones without strong affiliations are really lacking in the educational component.

As for board pass rate - much like in medical school, that's mostly a function of caliber of resident and availability of self-directed study time. Some of the busier programs have worse stats just because study time is limited.

Place an average group of radiology candidates in a room with the right review books for four years but no residency, and most would pass the boards.

 

[DrBB]

.

 

[drizzt3117]

Are you in an MD school?

What are my chances?

Step 1: 230
Step 2: Taking in October
Decent extracurriculars
Not much research
A's and B's during 3rd year.

Do you guys think I can match?

 

[drellis8]

How do you go about finding the caliber of community programs? Is there a place where Board pass rates are posted? Just trying to figure out what places to look at. What are some tangible things I should look out for?

Thanks

 

[DrBB]

Are you in an MD school?

Ya I'm at an MD school but not top 50 or anything.

 

[killinsound]

Ya I'm at an MD school but not top 50 or anything.

You will match somewhere. Apply broadly.

 

[FLpk1girl86]

f

 

[drizzt3117]

Ya I'm at an MD school but not top 50 or anything.

Apply to about 80 programs and you'll be fine.

 

[drizzt3117]

What are your thoughts about IM/FM?

Hi, can anyone offer advice for a rads residency ....


School: Osteopathic
gpa: 3 point something
USMLE: 219
COMLEX 515

waiting on step2's

Honors: Sigma sigma phi & a school scholarship

Dishonors: repeated a year of med school

 

[FLpk1girl86]

What are your thoughts about IM/FM?

really do not like im at all.... no chance at DO progs either?

 

[drizzt3117]

really do not like im at all.... no chance at DO progs either?

There's only 30 DO spots, I don't know how competitive they are but I assume it's not that easy to get one.

22 pts below the step 1 mean and DO means you're probably a reach at most programs. Perhaps ones like WSU which had to scramble 6/8 spots might be receptive, idk.

 

[deleted103644]

How do you go about finding the caliber of community programs? Is there a place where Board pass rates are posted? Just trying to figure out what places to look at. What are some tangible things I should look out for?

Thanks

Not posted all the time, but you want to look at the number of studies per resident, as well as exposure to things like MRI that some smaller hospitals might not even have.

Fellowship match lists are a little helpful, but they should all be good - a bad list is a red flag. Also, you want to make sure there have been some matches in specialties you care about (eg no IR matches in 10 years --> don't go there if you want to do IR).

Board pass rates are not a great indicator - just like the USMLE, this is more about your own study habits and the amount of time you have to study (as well as the number of recalls the program kept...). Also with the new board structure, none of the old statistics will be very relevant.

 

[MossPoh]

No, that's probably not ok, most places want two letters from patient care preceptors.

I've been kind of operating under this assumption, but need a little clarification/verification. It seems that radiology programs tend to prefer LORs from someone who worked with you routinely in a clinical setting over the generic big name letter. Obviously, a big name that can write a glowing letter about you because you worked with them directly is great.

My school keeps pushing us to request letters from higher up people that we may have only met in passing and write their letters based off of all the standard CV, scores, personal statement, etc. I've already got letters from my attendings in peds, IM, surgery and IR with probably one more rads PD type in the works (hopefully). Is that sufficient or should I just dance their little dance and humor them?

 

[drizzt3117]

It doesn't matter who your non-rads letters are from, they just need to be good. The rads letters ideally should be from big names in the field. It doesn't really matter if you've worked with then super directly, it's not like they're going to evaluate your radiologic skills; ideally you'd have a research letter from someone who you've spent a lot of time with though.

I've been kind of operating under this assumption, but need a little clarification/verification. It seems that radiology programs tend to prefer LORs from someone who worked with you routinely in a clinical setting over the generic big name letter. Obviously, a big name that can write a glowing letter about you because you worked with them directly is great.

My school keeps pushing us to request letters from higher up people that we may have only met in passing and write their letters based off of all the standard CV, scores, personal statement, etc. I've already got letters from my attendings in peds, IM, surgery and IR with probably one more rads PD type in the works (hopefully). Is that sufficient or should I just dance their little dance and humor them?

 

[FLpk1girl86]

There's only 30 DO spots, I don't know how competitive they are but I assume it's not that easy to get one.

22 pts below the step 1 mean and DO means you're probably a reach at most programs. Perhaps ones like WSU which had to scramble 6/8 spots might be receptive, idk.

is that wayne state university? their website says they have 44 accredited positions?

 

[drizzt3117]

is that wayne state university? their website says they have 44 accredited positions?

Maybe they have 11 spots, idk, I just know they scrambled the majority of their positions last year.

 

[MossPoh]

Yea, the research letters won't happen since any research I have is from non-radiologists. Disadvantage of coming from a school without a radiology program.

 

[deleted103644]

Yea, the research letters won't happen since any research I have is from non-radiologists. Disadvantage of coming from a school without a radiology program.

Non-radiology research letters are fine. If you did any significant research, get a letter.

 

[T12]

......

 

[deleted103644]

Hi friends. All input is appreciated.

Preclinical Grades: Mediocre
Clinical Grades: Half Honors/Half High Pass
Step 1: 257
Research: some work in basic science/radiology. Nothing spectacular.
Extracurriculars: the usual
Top 20ish med school by Research and/or Primary Care

Depends on your region. You'll probably do well though, so stick to mostly academic places + good community programs in your ideal location.

If that's Cali, add some good community programs in another location too.

 

[T12]

Depends on your region. You'll probably do well though, so stick to mostly academic places + good community programs in your ideal location.

If that's Cali, add some good community programs in another location too.

Thanks for the reply. I'm in TX and wouldn't mind staying here. I'm uneducated as to the relative competitiveness of programs and which are deemed academic/top tier and so on.
anyone have experience in this area of the country?

 

[drizzt3117]

Thanks for the reply. I'm in TX and wouldn't mind staying here. I'm uneducated as to the relative competitiveness of programs and which are deemed academic/top tier and so on.
anyone have experience in this area of the country?

UTSW > both baylors > UTH

None of them are top tier but UTSW is a very good program, probably top 20.

 

[deleted103644]

Thanks for the reply. I'm in TX and wouldn't mind staying here. I'm uneducated as to the relative competitiveness of programs and which are deemed academic/top tier and so on.
anyone have experience in this area of the country?

Didn't apply to Texas, but agree mostly with Drizz.

Realized my answer seemed a bit too local - apply good academic anywhere, good community/lower tier academic local (as safety).

I'd probably apply to everything in Texas as a hedge, then good academic programs outside. (Applications are cheap, interviews are expensive, don't rule places out until you have enough interviews to justify it.)

 

[drizzt3117]

He/she doesn't need to apply to comm programs in tx. I would bet any amount of money they'd match in an academic program in tx if they haven't committed a felony or remediated a year.

Didn't apply to Texas, but agree mostly with Drizz.

Realized my answer seemed a bit too local - apply good academic anywhere, good community/lower tier academic local (as safety).

I'd probably apply to everything in Texas as a hedge, then good academic programs outside. (Applications are cheap, interviews are expensive, don't rule places out until you have enough interviews to justify it.)

 

[deleted103644]

He/she doesn't need to apply to comm programs in tx. I would bet any amount of money they'd match in an academic program in tx if they haven't committed a felony or remediated a year.

Better safe than sorry, you really can't add on applications after the fact.

No harm in applying (the cost is minuscule next to everything else) - can always turn down the interviews.

 

[drizzt3117]

Meh, complete waste of time. You'd probably have advised me to apply to comm programs too. I think way too many people overapply and it's ridic. If I could do it all over again I woulda just picked 25-30 places. How many people did you see scrambling last year that applied to any top tiers here or AM? 0?

What kind of applicants do you think Texas tech, SA, or Scott & white are getting? He/she will be fine. I'd probably apply to the tx academic programs, Baylor Dallas, and ~35-40 academic programs outside tx.

 

[deleted103644]

Meh, complete waste of time. You'd probably have advised me to apply to comm programs too. I think way too many people overapply and it's ridic. If I could do it all over again I woulda just picked 25-30 places. How many people did you see scrambling last year that applied to any top tiers here or AM? 0?

What kind of applicants do you think Texas tech, SA, or Scott & white are getting? He/she will be fine. I'd probably apply to the tx academic programs, Baylor Dallas, and ~35-40 academic programs outside tx.

Why risk it? This was an incredibly uncompetitive year, maybe things change.

I don't like gambling with my future - I could have applied to <10 programs and been fine and stopped at <5 interviews, but I'm still glad I over applied.

If you're local, it doesn't even cost that much money to go on extra interviews.

Over applying sucks for program directors, but unless they change the fee structure it's silly not to do it.

 

[drizzt3117]

I don't think it was an uncompetitive year at all at the top programs.

There's a lot of reasons why you shouldn't apply to too many programs. If you get early interviews from lesser programs, and go, you may be unnecessarily interviewing. If you schedule them mid-cycle, you may get better interviews for the same date after you've bought flights you can't cancel.

I applied to 40 programs "just to be safe" and ran into lots of these problems with scheduling; I got 26 interviews and went on 19. I would've been totally safe with 13 interviews which I certainly would have gotten by applying to 25-30 programs.

Why risk it? This was an incredibly uncompetitive year, maybe things change.

I don't like gambling with my future - I could have applied to <10 programs and been fine and stopped at <5 interviews, but I'm still glad I over applied.

If you're local, it doesn't even cost that much money to go on extra interviews.

Over applying sucks for program directors, but unless they change the fee structure it's silly not to do it.

 

[dude1344]

.