Feeling lost about research applying straight through

[intlpremed9]

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hii guys, I'm currently an international student at a T10/T20 in my junior year. I'm planning to apply this coming cycle straight through since it might be harder to find a gap year job in this market. I recently transferred but previously had 4-500 hours of research (only presentations, no pubs) at Stanford. However due to competitiveness it's been hard to find research at my new school.


Since most med schools that accept intls are top-heavy and 'research-focused', is my 500 hours plus anything i might be starting next semester good enough for someone applying straight through to a T30? My previous PI commended my energy and drive for learning, but without a publication (data is hard to come by), I don't know if its sufficient for MD LOR, since I was intentionally leaning on research to be my X-factor to help me stand out (1000+ hrs by app cycle) to compensate for GPA.


In the meantime, I have;

- might end up with GPA between 3.5-3.6 by app cycle

- Gonna take the MCAT March but hoping for 516-518

- 300 hours clinical at hospice volunteer

- 100 hours nonprofit houseless teens

- 70 hours OR shadowing

- few hundred leadership hours at clubs

- 500 hours working at student union


Can anyone let me know if this is a good place to be if I add on really meaningful nonclinical hours (maybe 200 more) this year? It's hard to complete EMT by then, and I can't really work, so counting on my 300 clinical hours at hospice to be good enough to apply straight through.

Am I done for if I don't find further research this year?

 

[chilly_md]

You’re already facing at uphill battle at MD in general at that GPA as an international student. The single thing that would most help you would be gaining citizenship or a green card.

 

[LizzyM]

I don't want to be the bearer of bad news so I'll merely recommend that you acquire access to the MSAR ($28 for a one year subscription)

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and have a good look at the average GPA and average MCAT of admitted students to the schools that admit the largest number and proportion of international students. No amount of research short of a Nobel Prize will make up for a suboptimal GPA and MCAT so you need to put the focus on those metrics of evidence of academic excellence before you bemoan your lack of ongoing research productivity. If you would be considering a PhD or even an MS if the MD is not happening, then you should prioritize research but for the MD, particularly at the top research schools, you need to prioritize your grades and MCAT scores.

 

[intlpremed9]

My original idea was for the length and commitment of my ECs to help balance out my below average GPA, but would you think a 3.5 is irreparable/hopeless especially with a 516/518+ if I do good on MCAT? I've just purchased MSAR, and there are some with median GPA in 3.6-3.8 and within my MCAT goal. I just wanted to know what you guys thought of these ECs given that I'm applying straight through — I've been told that trad applicants' hours will not a direct comparison to nontrads with 1000s of research/clinical/nonclinical, is that true here?

Please let me know what you think I can do at this point — other than nonclinical and MCAT, I think I will end with a 3.5-3.6 at the end of junior year. Even if I do wait to repair during senior, it'll be 3.7 at best, is that still irreparable? Thanks so much, I have no one to talk to about this with..

 

[PickaGodnPray]

The idea that trads are held to a different standard than non-trads is sorely outdated. Now, if anything, it is more difficult for trad students to get into programs straight out of undergrad without stellar stats. You could score superbly on the MCAT and have a shot, but otherwise you are competing with people who have thousands of hours in direct patient care as RNs or CNAs and people who took a couple years off to do research and publish multiple papers. Those experiences are more sought after than stats alone, but typically these applicants also have strong stats to go along with their ECs. I am sorry, but no adcom will look at two similar stat applicants—one straight out of undergrad and one multiple years out—and offer the trad student an A over the nontrad because they didn't have the same amount of time to build hours. Those hours are now expected of everyone and if you have to take a few years to collect them, so be it.

 

[chilly_md]

My original idea was for the length and commitment of my ECs to help balance out my below average GPA, but would you think a 3.5 is irreparable/hopeless especially with a 516/518+ if I do good on MCAT? I've just purchased MSAR, and there are some with median GPA in 3.6-3.8 and within my MCAT goal.

Successful international students typically have near perfect stats along with significant ECs. There is a limited list of schools that accept a meaningful number of international students to begin with (ie 3+ a cycle). Likely, most public MD schools have accepted very few, with the majority of these likely being someone who attended the corresponding undergrad or studied at a different school in the same city.

If you are Canadian, there are some schools along the border that can be more forgiving.

 

[intlpremed9]

Do you think my GPA is irreparable even if I do really well on the MCAT (518+)? I've tried to go for longitudinal and meaningful ECs so far given that I had to transfer out of CC to a UC, and am really trying hard to get 200 more hours of nonclinical since I don't think I can legally work as an MA/EMT (hopefully 300 hrs hospice clinical is sufficient).

If I wait till end of senior year (and take a gap year), my GPA will be about 3.75 — will that make any difference given a 518+?

I really don't know what safety net there is with a bio undergrad degree even if from one of the best US schools — and I'm not really thinking about a PhD... what do you think I can do before I apply next year after I take the MCAT and hopefully knock it out? I'm feeling kinda lost now..

 

[chilly_md]

If both your cumulative and science specific GPA would be 3.75 after your senior year, that would certainly help your chances. It sounds like you are already projecting your grades though to the end of this junior year. Does that mean you have lower than a 3.5 currently?

 

[intlpremed9]

Yes, I had a rough quarter back at CC before transferring but am working really hard now to maintain A/A- minimum across my upper div classes. Previously when shadowing at Stanford I connected with a surgeon who also reads applications for Stanford and asked him about my app and if my 0.1/0.2 difference in GPA (3.5 vs 3.7) would be worth it to delay application for a year, to which he replied no, especially if you can do well on the MCAT and have enough meaningful hours for a junior applying straight through. Of course n=1 for him, however I am really trying hard to achieve my dream but would that 3.5 vs 3.75 be that big of a difference that I wouldn't stand a chance at all? How much can my ECs help me mitigate this one? How holistic would schools be in this regard?

I've made many meaningful connections throughout the course of my ECs towards medicine that I don't think I could see any better fit, but I hope one or two bad quarters doesn't decide my life/career. I know GPA/MCAT are two different metrics, but what else is in my control now to improve my chances? I appreciate any help/advice, since data points even on MSAR are limited for intls.

 

[PickaGodnPray]

A 3.5 vs a 3.7 is dramatically different. It also shows adcoms that mistake from CC was well in the past if you have sustained upward trajectory. His advice also fully hinges on you getting 518+ which every applicant dreams of, but there’s a reason 95% of them do not achieve it. Theres no point in hypotheticals, but you drastically increase your odds with a 3.7 instead of a 3.5.

 

[GoSpursGo]

You absolutely need to focus on your academics. After a few hundred hours, additional research hours are essentially meaningless without a deliverable, so stacking up another few hundred hours still without anything new to show for it is a waste of time. Reallocate those hours to studying to allow you to get a 4.0 in senior year to solidify an upward trend. Frankly... maybe you had a good reason for transferring, but by interrupting all of your activities I think it's going to be very challenging to develop new meaningful activities that will have you ready to apply in the spring, and doubly so for research. I basically don't interview juniors and seniors who ask to join my lab, as I'm not going to have enough time with you to get you up to speed to do anything meaningful.

You need to also get at least 50 more nonclinical volunteer hours.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

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