Finance To Medicine

[FinanceToMed]

Hello everyone. I hope I'm posting at the right place.

TLDR: Currently work in finance in Canada, wants to get into genetics, unsure what my options are.

I'm currently a couple of years out of school working in the investment industry in Canada. I still love the field but work has gotten boring due to stringent mandates. I could switch to another firm but I realize that I will never be "free" and pursue my own ideas. Plus I think I will still have plenty of time to pursue investing on the side once I switch fields.

I've always been interested in science but while in school I decided to chase money and got into finance instead. Money only gets you so much in life and I feel like I'm making zero contribution to society. So I want to get into genetics, which I think is really at the forefront of modern day science. I want to do research and do crazy experiments.

My undergrad GPA is 3.7 but I don't have any science courses. I don't think it matters but to give some background I had good grades for science courses in high school. I aced all of my quantitative courses in undergrad (calculus, stats etc.), but again, no science courses.

I think there are two problems here since I think I may need to complete some undergrad courses and possibly take the MCAT and then I would need to choose the grad school? I'm fine with a long grad school program but I don't want to spend time doing undergrad courses so if there's a good grad program that is open to people with no science background that would be optimal.

What are some good schools that I would fit my profile? Appreciate your thoughts. Thank you.

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[efle]

7.4/10

 

[CyrilFiggis]

If you want to get into genetics, don't go to med school. Get a PhD

 

[libertyyne]

Assuming that you are actually serious.
1. You will need a postbac to complete science pre-reqs.
2. You will need to take the MCAT and perform well.
3. You will need ecs including volunteering.
4. You will need letter of rec from a science proof or school committee.
5. You will have to apply through amcas.

 

[LizzyM]

Hello everyone. I hope I'm posting at the right place.

TLDR: Currently work in finance in Canada, wants to get into genetics, unsure what my options are.

I'm currently a couple of years out of school working in the investment industry in Canada. I still love the field but work has gotten boring due to stringent mandates. I could switch to another firm but I realize that I will never be "free" and pursue my own ideas. Plus I think I will still have plenty of time to pursue investing on the side once I switch fields.

I've always been interested in science but while in school I decided to chase money and got into finance instead. Money only gets you so much in life and I feel like I'm making zero contribution to society. So I want to get into genetics, which I think is really at the forefront of modern day science. I want to do research and do crazy experiments.

My undergrad GPA is 3.7 but I don't have any science courses. I don't think it matters but to give some background I had good grades for science courses in high school. I aced all of my quantitative courses in undergrad (calculus, stats etc.), but again, no science courses.

I think there are two problems here since I think I may need to complete some undergrad courses and possibly take the MCAT and then I would need to choose the grad school? I'm fine with a long grad school program but I don't want to spend time doing undergrad courses so if there's a good grad program that is open to people with no science background that would be optimal.

What are some good schools that I would fit my profile? Appreciate your thoughts. Thank you.

If you want to get into genetics and do research/experiments, then you most likely want to prepare for a career in bench research, not medicine.

You've already gone down one path that was unsatisfying so it would be wise to learn more about the lifestyle of the rich and famous genetic research professionals before you leap in. Use your networking skills to find someone working in bench research. Ask everyone you know if they know someone who does this work. Within 3 degrees of separation (friend of a friend of a friend) you should find someone. Ask if you can do an informational interview with that person. It can be skype or phone or in person. Find out what their preparation for the job was, what they do day to day, month to month, year to year and what the greatest joys and challenges are. what had they not expected from the career (was this even the career they had originally prepared for or was their a twist in the path)?

If you are going to be admitted to either a medical school (if you talk with physicians, maybe shadow some, and decide that you really want to take care of patients) or to graduate school to become a scientist, you will need to have taken undergraduate level courses in biology, chemistry, organic chemistry, biochemistry, genetics and maybe physics. Most likely you'd need cell biology too. Ugh! Undergrad classes. But how can you expect to step into graduate level or professional level courses without having laid a foundation? It would be like a biology major who had never taken a course in management, economics or accounting trying to enroll in an MBA program in finance.

In the states there are post-bac programs aimed at helping people re-tool for a career change. Most commonly, it is for pre-med and pre-med post-bac would serve well enough for pre-PhD in biology/genetics provided you also get some bench research experience.

Good luck!

 

[FinanceToMed]

Assuming that you are actually serious.
1. You will need a postbac to complete science pre-reqs.
2. You will need to take the MCAT and perform well.
3. You will need ecs including volunteering.
4. You will need letter of rec from a science proof or school committee.
5. You will have to apply through amcas.

If you want to get into genetics and do research/experiments, then you most likely want to prepare for a career in bench research, not medicine.

You've already gone down one path that was unsatisfying so it would be wise to learn more about the lifestyle of the rich and famous genetic research professionals before you leap in. Use your networking skills to find someone working in bench research. Ask everyone you know if they know someone who does this work. Within 3 degrees of separation (friend of a friend of a friend) you should find someone. Ask if you can do an informational interview with that person. It can be skype or phone or in person. Find out what their preparation for the job was, what they do day to day, month to month, year to year and what the greatest joys and challenges are. what had they not expected from the career (was this even the career they had originally prepared for or was their a twist in the path)?

If you are going to be admitted to either a medical school (if you talk with physicians, maybe shadow some, and decide that you really want to take care of patients) or to graduate school to become a scientist, you will need to have taken undergraduate level courses in biology, chemistry, organic chemistry, biochemistry, genetics and maybe physics. Most likely you'd need cell biology too. Ugh! Undergrad classes. But how can you expect to step into graduate level or professional level courses without having laid a foundation? It would be like a biology major who had never taken a course in management, economics or accounting trying to enroll in an MBA program in finance.

In the states there are post-bac programs aimed at helping people re-tool for a career change. Most commonly, it is for pre-med and pre-med post-bac would serve well enough for pre-PhD in biology/genetics provided you also get some bench research experience.

Good luck!

Thanks for the detailed response. Is there a program that is open to non-hard science degrees? I did some research and some schools like Johns Hopkins supposedly have it but I couldn't find more information, everything goes back to taking the required courses first before applying.

I agree that I definitely need basic science knowledge, but I was hoping that this could be included in the grad program? To draw the MBA
parallel, you can actually apply with any degree! Granted it's not hard science so I guess that's why schools feel okay with teaching everything within the program.

The reason I want to skip undergrad course is not because I'm lazy (to give you an idea I finished the required exams for THE designation in finance, the Chartered Financial Analyst designation, when I was 22), it's really for the sake of hedging my risks. I don't want to take these courses only to be admitted to a non-ideal program. If I get into grad school directly I would know what I'm playing for right at the beginning. If you guys could name some of such programs, if any, that would be great.

As for MCAT, it would seem that it will not be required for being a scientist/researcher rather than physician?

Thanks again.

 

[Goro]

If you want to get into genetics, don't go to med school. Get a PhD

Or even a MS

 

[libertyyne]

Thanks for the detailed response. Is there a program that is open to non-hard science degrees? I did some research and some schools like Johns Hopkins supposedly have it but I couldn't find more information, everything goes back to taking the required courses first before applying.

I agree that I definitely need basic science knowledge, but I was hoping that this could be included in the grad program? To draw the MBA
parallel, you can actually apply with any degree! Granted it's not hard science so I guess that's why schools feel okay with teaching everything within the program.

The reason I want to skip undergrad course is not because I'm lazy (to give you an idea I finished the required exams for THE designation in finance, the Chartered Financial Analyst designation, when I was 22), it's really for the sake of hedging my risks. I don't want to take these courses only to be admitted to a non-ideal program. If I get into grad school directly I would know what I'm playing for right at the beginning. If you guys could name some of such programs, if any, that would be great.

As for MCAT, it would seem that it will not be required for being a scientist/researcher rather than physician?

Thanks again.

There is no garuntee in applying to medical school. Assurances or chances of successful matriculation can only be made with the full picture available (MCAT) pre req completion, ecs.

To draw a finance analogy. You are basically asking what the alpha of an IPO will be 3 years from now. And if it won't be 20 percentage points you don't want to invest.

Your mcat and science grades could be so terrible that you won't gain a single MD acceptance . Or your app could be so good that you could be a shoe in for some great programs. Without that information and the rest of your app it is not worth hypothesizing since the margin of error is so large it makes the results meaningless.
As LizzyM has suggested you should figure out what you want to do,and then outline a path figuring out how to maximize chances of success.

 

[FinanceToMed]

There is no garuntee in applying to medical school. Assurances or chances of successful matriculation can only be made with the full picture available (MCAT) pre req completion, ecs.

To draw a finance analogy. You are basically asking what the alpha of an IPO will be 3 years from now. And if it won't be 20 percentage points you don't want to invest.

Your mcat and science grades could be so terrible that you won't gain a single MD acceptance . Or your app could be so good that you could be a shoe in for some great programs. Without that information and the rest of your app it is not worth hypothesizing since the margin of error is so large it makes the results meaningless.
As LizzyM has suggested you should figure out what you want to do,and then outline a path figuring out how to maximize chances of success.

I get that there are no guarantees but I would rather get an answer first before putting in the effort (this is the optimal scenario), which is why I was asking about a program that doesn't require hard science courses to get in. Or are you saying there is absolutely nothing?

I just reread the article and it was mt. Sinai Getting Into Med School Without Hard Sciences

Also it seems that MCAT may not be necessary for a researcher?

 

[libertyyne]

I get that there are no guarantees but I would rather get an answer first before putting in the effort (this is the optimal scenario), which is why I was asking about a program that doesn't require hard science courses to get in. Or are you saying there is absolutely nothing?

I just reread the article and it was mt. Sinai Getting Into Med School Without Hard Sciences

Also it seems that MCAT may not be necessary for a researcher?

Mt Sinai program is pretty unique and caters to undergrads not career changers.

 

[efle]

Wow, the guy with no science background asking about going to med school to do crazy experiments in genetics, and of course only interested in prestigious programs, turned out to be real?

 

[efle]

Oh, looks like he edited out the comment about only wanting to go to a top medical school.

 

[FinanceToMed]

Mt Sinai program is pretty unique and caters to undergrads not career changers.

Is there something for career changers?

Wow, the guy with no science background asking about going to med school to do crazy experiments in genetics, and of course only interested in prestigious programs, turned out to be real?

Yes that's my goal. I took it out because I thought it would turn people off and prevent a meaningful discussion.

 

[efle]

Is there something for career changers?


Yes that's my goal. I took it out because I thought it would turn people off and prevent a meaningful discussion.

Wait so what is the goal here? Med school? Grad school? Or just whatever gets you funded to do crazy genetics experiments the soonest?

 

[LizzyM]

@FinanceToMed There might be MS programs that will take you with no background and teach the basics but there is no way you'll get admitted to a PhD program in the hard sciences without having taken the pre-reqs. That goes double for medical school.

In PhD programs, you have a couple years of classroom instruction while, concurrently, you rotate through a series of laboratories to gauge your interest in the work of that lab and the lab boss (usually called a PI or principal investigator) determines if you are a good fit with the lab. At some schools, the PI is financially responsible for funding your education (tuition and living stipend) out of his research budget and you work in his lab in exchange for that support. So, a PI is only going to take you on if you have already demonstrated that you "have good hands", are willing to work collaboratively, are not easily discouraged by negative results, etc. All that are skills that one develops and demonstrates during undergrad or post-bac training in the sciences and research done as part of one's academic schedule or in addition to coursework.

I can't imagine a PhD program that would take someone who had no laboratory experience and no undergrad classes in the sciences. It would be too much remedial work for a serious PhD program. It would be like taking a HS graduate who is reading at a 3rd grade level and expecting them to do well as an English Literature major.

There are a few post-bac programs that are highly regarded and rigorous. Many students wash out but those who make it are generally stellar. Columbia University is one, Bryn Mawr is another and there is at least one on the west coast -- maybe Mills College?? They aren't cheap but they are effective, in part because the advising is geared toward your entire application including volunteering and research as well as the academic pre-reqs for medical school.

 

[Danny L]

Are you in IB? Try going to business school and then applying out to PE or HF firms. I can't remember the exact order but you can go to WSO and learn about how people get into PE

If you really want to do into the sciences don't care about money like you said, you can go into science research and get a PhD like mentioned above. Or you can get involved in healthcare and go into healthcare consulting (which doesn't require as much effort as going into med school)

All of those are low effort outs from what I assume is IB. If you have the motivation, you can go into medicine but I personally wouldn't quit your job for it

 

[FinanceToMed]

@FinanceToMed There might be MS programs that will take you with no background and teach the basics but there is no way you'll get admitted to a PhD program in the hard sciences without having taken the pre-reqs. That goes double for medical school.

In PhD programs, you have a couple years of classroom instruction while, concurrently, you rotate through a series of laboratories to gauge your interest in the work of that lab and the lab boss (usually called a PI or principal investigator) determines if you are a good fit with the lab. At some schools, the PI is financially responsible for funding your education (tuition and living stipend) out of his research budget and you work in his lab in exchange for that support. So, a PI is only going to take you on if you have already demonstrated that you "have good hands", are willing to work collaboratively, are not easily discouraged by negative results, etc. All that are skills that one develops and demonstrates during undergrad or post-bac training in the sciences and research done as part of one's academic schedule or in addition to coursework.

I can't imagine a PhD program that would take someone who had no laboratory experience and no undergrad classes in the sciences. It would be too much remedial work for a serious PhD program. It would be like taking a HS graduate who is reading at a 3rd grade level and expecting them to do well as an English Literature major.

There are a few post-bac programs that are highly regarded and rigorous. Many students wash out but those who make it are generally stellar. Columbia University is one, Bryn Mawr is another and there is at least one on the west coast -- maybe Mills College?? They aren't cheap but they are effective, in part because the advising is geared toward your entire application including volunteering and research as well as the academic pre-reqs for medical school.

Okay that's very helpful. Just to be clear, I fully intend to take the required undergrad courses or their equivalents, I would just rather do it within the grad program. The post-bacs that you mentioned I assume are not really like that?

Are you in IB? Try going to business school and then applying out to PE or HF firms. I can't remember the exact order but you can go to WSO and learn about how people get into PE

If you really want to do into the sciences don't care about money like you said, you can go into science research and get a PhD like mentioned above. Or you can get involved in healthcare and go into healthcare consulting (which doesn't require as much effort as going into med school)

All of those are low effort outs from what I assume is IB. If you have the motivation, you can go into medicine but I personally wouldn't quit your job for it

No I'm on the buyside already. I'm not doing it to get out of a terrible work environment. For all intent and purposes the work and life balance is pretty good. It's the work itself that gets boring. There are different ways to make money but at the end of the day that's really the only purpose. If we don't buy this security then we buy this other security, or sell it, short it, whatever. Not really pushing the boundaries of evolution here.

 

[LizzyM]

You need to take undergraduate classes to have a foundation for graduate level work. There are no short-cuts. You need to take the undergraduate classes, take an admission exam (MCAT for medical school or GRE for graduate school) and apply to graduate or professional school. Every degree granting program is judged, in part, on the proportion of matriculants who graduate so they aren't going to take a chance on people who are completely untested (no science classes since high school and yet we should take a chance that the person will do well and graduate with a PhD or MD -- too risky).

The idea of the post-bac programs I named (and there are others as well) is that the schools take students who are career changers or recent college grads who did not take the pre-reqs and provide them with those classes as well as advising/connections to service and research experiences that round out one's application to medical school. I've seen applicants who came out of business and music performance and did these post-bac classes before applying to medical school.

 

[FinanceToMed]

You need to take undergraduate classes to have a foundation for graduate level work. There are no short-cuts. You need to take the undergraduate classes, take an admission exam (MCAT for medical school or GRE for graduate school) and apply to graduate or professional school. Every degree granting program is judged, in part, on the proportion of matriculants who graduate so they aren't going to take a chance on people who are completely untested (no science classes since high school and yet we should take a chance that the person will do well and graduate with a PhD or MD -- too risky).

The idea of the post-bac programs I named (and there are others as well) is that the schools take students who are career changers or recent college grads who did not take the pre-reqs and provide them with those classes as well as advising/connections to service and research experiences that round out one's application to medical school. I've seen applicants who came out of business and music performance and did these post-bac classes before applying to medical school.

Thank you. Is there a vetted list of ranked post-bac programs here? I was reading some posts and apparently the ranking of post-bac schools don't matter if your GPA is okay (I think mine is okay?)? What do you recommend?

 

[FinanceToMed]

Wait so what is the goal here? Med school? Grad school? Or just whatever gets you funded to do crazy genetics experiments the soonest?

Probably the the last one.

 

[efle]

Thank you. Is there a vetted list of ranked post-bac programs here? I was reading some posts and apparently the ranking of post-bac schools don't matter if your GPA is okay (I think mine is okay?)? What do you recommend?

Probably the the last one.

Many people pursue post-baccs for grade repair, rather than just because they are missing the science prerequisites. Your GPA is fine, and will be even better if you spend a few semesters acing all the prereqs, so for you it is just about doing the required classes. Someone correct me if I'm mistaken but I believe Columbia, Hopkins and Bryn Mawr are three excellent places to do premed postbacc.

But really you could DIY at any college that offers the required classes. You don't have to be part of a formal program. Doing something cheap at a public university gets you to the same endpoint of checking off the prereqs.

 

[gyngyn]

Thank you. Is there a vetted list of ranked post-bac programs here? I was reading some posts and apparently the ranking of post-bac schools don't matter if your GPA is okay (I think mine is okay?)? What do you recommend?

You can take the courses at any accredited college.
There are post-bacs, as well. The "ranking" is of very modest importance.

 

[FinanceToMed]

Many people pursue post-baccs for grade repair, rather than just because they are missing the science prerequisites. Your GPA is fine, and will be even better if you spend a few semesters acing all the prereqs, so for you it is just about doing the required classes. Someone correct me if I'm mistaken but I believe Columbia, Hopkins and Bryn Mawr are three excellent places to do premed postbacc.

But really you could DIY at any college that offers the required classes. You don't have to be part of a formal program. Doing something cheap at a public university gets you to the same endpoint of checking off the prereqs.

You can take the courses at any accredited college.
There are post-bacs, as well. The "ranking" is of very modest importance.

Interesting. Any discrimination for Canadian universities? Also why is it that undergrad schools are important but post-bacs are not? Are they not really on the same level? LizzyM's also seems to suggest that a few post-bac programs are worth more?

And then bigger picture what are some of the top grad schools for genetics? Is there like a niche one or is it pretty much top schools (in my mind at least) like Harvard, MIT etc.

Also the admission requirements seem incredibly low? Application Requirements - Harvard University - Department of Molecular & Cellular Biology

I can't imagine that acing my undergrad courses would suffice! Or is it all about the GRE score?

 

[gyngyn]

Interesting. Any discrimination for Canadian universities? Also why is it that undergrad schools are important but post-bacs are not? Are they not really on the same level? LizzyM's also seems to suggest that a few post-bac programs are worth more?

And then bigger picture what are some of the top grad schools for genetics? Is there like a niche one or is it pretty much top schools (in my mind at least) like Harvard, MIT etc.

Also the admission requirements seem incredibly low? Application Requirements - Harvard University - Department of Molecular & Cellular Biology

I can't imagine that acing my undergrad courses would suffice! Or is it all about the GRE score?

Undergrad courses are the standard we use for the medical school application.
Your alma mater is of some importance, particularly at private medical schools. Canadian schools are fine.
The "selectivity" of post-bacs may have an effect at some schools. It will be modest at many.
Many fine medical schools have no pre-requisites at all (including most CA schools).
I have no idea which grad schools are better for genetics.

 

[FinanceToMed]

Undergrad courses are the standard we use for the medical school application.
Your alma mater is of some importance, particularly at private medical schools. Canadian schools are fine.
The "selectivity" of post-bacs is unknown but likely modest.
Many fine medical schools have no pre-requisites at all (including most CA schools).
I have no idea which grad schools are better.

Can you be more specific regarding CA schools? I checked a couple and they all need undergrad science courses.
And then for grad school admission (not MD), how do you stand out if the standards are so low? Are there some implicit requirements that are basically required for consideration? Like volunteering, internships etc. Or is it just your essay, GPA, and GRE?

 

[efle]

For the best grad schools what you want is a bunch of experience working in a lab in the field, with glowing recommendation and evidence of productivity (presentations, publications). For med schools it is more about academics and ECs like volunteerism, though research is again emphasized at the most competitive medical programs.

For the non competitive grad schools, it can be very easy to get a seat. However as many in the pipeline will tell you, you may end up with a PhD and no good path forward. The number of post-doc and tenure track positions, and funding in general even once there, is scarce and the applicants are many.

 

[gyngyn]

Can you be more specific regarding CA schools? I checked a couple and they all need undergrad science courses.
And then for grad school admission (not MD), how do you stand out if the standards are so low? Are there some implicit requirements that are basically required for consideration? Like volunteering, internships etc. Or is it just your essay, GPA, and GRE?

Most CA MD schools have recommended courses that tend to have content important for the MCAT. Required courses are being replaced by competencies. Admittedly, it will be hard for someone in your position to show competency without taking those courses.

Although I evaluate MSTP candiates, I will defer to my colleagues who evaluate regular PhD candidates for advice on this path.

Are you a US citizen or permanent resident?

 

[cactusman]

Interesting. Any discrimination for Canadian universities? Also why is it that undergrad schools are important but post-bacs are not? Are they not really on the same level? LizzyM's also seems to suggest that a few post-bac programs are worth more?

And then bigger picture what are some of the top grad schools for genetics? Is there like a niche one or is it pretty much top schools (in my mind at least) like Harvard, MIT etc.

Also the admission requirements seem incredibly low? Application Requirements - Harvard University - Department of Molecular & Cellular Biology

I can't imagine that acing my undergrad courses would suffice! Or is it all about the GRE score?

I believe what really matters is research experience, of which you currently have none. Grades and GRE also matter, of course.

I don't know about Genetics specifically, but bio programs are largely the big name schools (including big publics with somewhat lower ranked UGs but which are research powerhouses) and a few which are less known outside of academia, like Rockefeller. And I believe PhDs are largely about who you work with, not the school as a whole quite as much (although there's a lot of overlap).
@aldol16 has a Chem PhD and can probably add insight (as do multiple adcoms here, but aldol writes a lot about academia).

 

[FinanceToMed]

For the best grad schools what you want is a bunch of experience working in a lab in the field, with glowing recommendation and evidence of productivity (presentations, publications). For med schools it is more about academics and ECs like volunteerism, though research is again emphasized at the most competitive medical programs.

For the non competitive grad schools, it can be very easy to get a seat. However as many in the pipeline will tell you, you may end up with a PhD and no good path forward. The number of post-doc and tenure track positions, and funding in general even once there, is scarce and the applicants are many.

Yes that's why I want to get into the "competitive" ones. But like you said what they look for are experience working in a lab, which is hard for me to show without getting a second degree I suppose, or a legitimate post-bac, because correct me if I'm wrong as just doing the science courses at my local college probably won't suffice.

Most CA MD schools have recommended courses that tend to have content important for the MCAT. Required courses are being replaced by competencies. Admittedly, it will be hard for someone in your position to show competency without taking those courses.

Although I evaluate MSTP candiates, I will defer to my colleagues who evaluate regular PhD candidates for advice on this path.

I suppose competency means research, publication etc. like efle said? And just making sure CA means California right.

I believe what really matters is research experience, of which you currently have none. Grades and GRE also matter, of course.

I don't know about Genetics specifically, but bio programs are largely the big name schools (including big publics with somewhat lower ranked UGs but which are research powerhouses) and a few which are less known outside of academia, like Rockefeller. And I believe PhDs are largely about who you work with, not the school as a whole quite as much (although there's a lot of overlap).
@aldol16 has a Chem PhD and can probably add insight (as do multiple adcoms here, but aldol writes a lot about academia).

Right so there is no way for me to get into a good grad school without doing a legitimate post-bac (to get the experience and show competency etc.), even though where I take the undergrad courses don't really matter on paper.

 

[gyngyn]

And just making sure CA means California right.

Are you a US citizen or permanent resident?

 

[FinanceToMed]

Are you a US citizen or permanent resident?

Canadian, no U.S. status.

 

[gyngyn]

Canadian, no U.S. status.

That changes the odds considerably for MD.

 

[FinanceToMed]

That changes the odds considerably for MD.

Making it worse right? But from what I gathered from the discussion here I should really be doing a non-MD grad program because my goal isn't to become a physician but rather doing research.

 

[gyngyn]

Making it worse right? But from what I gathered from the discussion here I should really be doing a non-MD grad program because my goal isn't to become a physician but rather doing research.

This is much more achievable.

 

[FinanceToMed]

This is much more achievable.

Yes and that's what I'm shooting for. Any specific ideas? So far I gather that I should do a post-bac at a legitimate school to show competency through research/lab work, then use that to apply to competitive grad schools.

 

[Goro]

Yes that's why I want to get into the "competitive" ones. But like you said what they look for are experience working in a lab, which is hard for me to show without getting a second degree I suppose, or a legitimate post-bac, because correct me if I'm wrong as just doing the science courses at my local college probably won't suffice.

I suppose competency means research, publication etc. like efle said? And just making sure CA means California right.

Right so there is no way for me to get into a good grad school without doing a legitimate post-bac (to get the experience and show competency etc.), even though where I take the undergrad courses don't really matter on paper.

Just get a MS. You can end up being a lab mgr or research tech and still do tons of whatever research suits your heart. But start off with the pre-reqs...you'll need them for the GRE.

 

[cactusman]

You might also consider CS/Bioinformatics, which is a big deal in genetics but I imagine is incorporated to some extent into Genetics grad programs. Or genetic counseling but that's a whole different thang. Either way do research ASAP so you know you don't just like it in theory.

 

[FinanceToMed]

Just get a MS. You can end up being a lab mgr or research tech and still do tons of whatever research suits your heart. But start off with the pre-reqs...you'll need them for the GRE.

Right, so I should still start with a legitimate post-bac program because from the previous discussion I'm getting the vibe that just doing the undergrad courses won't cut it as I need to show competency through lab work and research.

You might also consider CS/Bioinformatics, which is a big deal in genetics but I imagine is incorporated to some extent into Genetics grad programs. Or genetic counseling but that's a whole different thang. Either way do research ASAP so you know you don't just like it in theory.

Thanks for your input. Ya genetic counseling is not what I'm looking for. Not really interested in CS either, though I think it must be pretty marketable in today's market, but not my cup of tea.

 

[cactusman]

Not really interested in CS either, though I think it must be pretty marketable in today's market, but not my cup of tea.

With you on that! I think the idea of bioinformatics is super cool but I finally took a course in it and I was just going "I don't understand perl halp" the whole time.

 

[TypeADissection]

This is right up my alley. Used to work in investment banking, was headed to b-school, got laid off, discovered surgery, went post-bacc to take organic chem + lab, took MCAT and voila - four painful years later now in last year of general surgery. Reading the above posts, you really do have to weigh the cost of going to med school because it's a huge commitment. The 10 years of lost earning potential is not insignificant and you have to think of where your career could be a decade from now in finance versus just starting as an attending. I don't regret my decision to go surgery but if given an opportunity to do it all over again by comparing myself to friends who stayed in finance, if you're interested in the science end of things; maybe consider VC in biotech/pharm. Easier said than done but there are a lot of options out there if you have a more quantitative background. The other thing to consider is that I didn't have a science background in undergrad and have never found it interesting. I don't find genetics, biochem, micro and the like interesting in any way whatsoever. I love surgery and reading about it and doing it, but basic science stuff does not turn me on. DM me if you got specific questions about decision points. Granted my advice may be limited because I'm not sure how med school admissions work currently coming from Canada. That was a long time ago for me. Cheers.

 

[FinanceToMed]

This is right up my alley. Used to work in investment banking, was headed to b-school, got laid off, discovered surgery, went post-bacc to take organic chem + lab, took MCAT and voila - four painful years later now in last year of general surgery. Reading the above posts, you really do have to weigh the cost of going to med school because it's a huge commitment. The 10 years of lost earning potential is not insignificant and you have to think of where your career could be a decade from now in finance versus just starting as an attending. I don't regret my decision to go surgery but if given an opportunity to do it all over again by comparing myself to friends who stayed in finance, if you're interested in the science end of things; maybe consider VC in biotech/pharm. Easier said than done but there are a lot of options out there if you have a more quantitative background. The other thing to consider is that I didn't have a science background in undergrad and have never found it interesting. I don't find genetics, biochem, micro and the like interesting in any way whatsoever. I love surgery and reading about it and doing it, but basic science stuff does not turn me on. DM me if you got specific questions about decision points. Granted my advice may be limited because I'm not sure how med school admissions work currently coming from Canada. That was a long time ago for me. Cheers.

Nice to see that you made it! It seems that I may be taking the easier route since it would just be post-bac and then non-MD grad school. I agree that there is a big trade off financially but I'm literally sitting in my chair doing mindless work (how I feel anyways) in exchange for money. I feel like I'm wasting my life. In the short-term I have enough savings to live comfortably, though I will for sure be taking out loans to finance grad program. At the end of the day I don't think I'm walking into financial ruin because in the absolutely worst case scenario I can't think of any reason why I wouldn't be welcomed back to the current industry if I fail to find anything genetics related, considering that I would then have a scientific background which would be tremendously marketable as a healthcare analyst. I doubt biotech VCs would welcome me since I have literally zero healthcare experience, and in any case it would be similar to my current job, analyzing companies that I don't give a crap about.

I don't think I could handle being a surgeon, the pressure must be insane! Would rather relax in the lab.

 

[efle]

Soooo it sounds like the next move would be heading back to school then, working in a lab while taking basic science classes, much the same as a typical pre-med. The working in a lab part is especially key, not just because it helps you with grad school, but because it sounds like it would be your first exposure to what life after that grad degree would really be like. Might not be what you expect at all!

 

[FinanceToMed]

I've dug around the post-bac forum and opinions seem to be mixed about school rankings. Some older threads say Columbia is "second-tier" but the FAQ says it's a good school and LizzyM seems to support it as well? Also, what do post-bac admission officers look at?

 

[LizzyM]

I've dug around the post-bac forum and opinions seem to be mixed about school rankings. Some older threads say Columbia is "second-tier" but the FAQ says it's a good school and LizzyM seems to support it as well? Also, what do post-bac admission officers look at?

Your check book.

 

[FinanceToMed]

Your check book.

Does this mean that it's easy to get in? And do you agree with my assessment that I should do a good post-bacs program because I don't have anything else to demonstrate competency? Or would I still have a good chance of getting into a good grad program by doing just the undergrad courses at any university?

 

[LizzyM]

Does this mean that it's easy to get in? And do you agree with my assessment that I should do a good post-bacs program because I don't have anything else to demonstrate competency? Or would I still have a good chance of getting into a good grad program by doing just the undergrad courses at any university?

Easy to get in, hard to stay in. They are willing to give almost anyone a shot but there is a strong weed-out component.

In my experience, the formal post-bac programs offer advising, a letter of recommendation that will tell your story in great detail to sell you as an applicant, and referrals to volunteering and bench research experiences that aren't open to folks who aren't enrolled in the post-bac. (e.g. Columbia seems to have a lock on the volunteer program at one West Side hospital in NYC.)

On the other hand, if you feel as if you can do your own leg work and get into a lab and a hospital volunteering gig and want to merely take the science courses on your own, do your thing but keep in mind that, to some degree, pedigree matters.

 

[FinanceToMed]

Easy to get in, hard to stay in. They are willing to give almost anyone a shot but there is a strong weed-out component.

In my experience, the formal post-bac programs offer advising, a letter of recommendation that will tell your story in great detail to sell you as an applicant, and referrals to volunteering and bench research experiences that aren't open to folks who aren't enrolled in the post-bac. (e.g. Columbia seems to have a lock on the volunteer program at one West Side hospital in NYC.)

On the other hand, if you feel as if you can do your own leg work and get into a lab and a hospital volunteering gig and want to merely take the science courses on your own, do your thing but keep in mind that, to some degree, pedigree matters.

Would you say that it's difficult because of the material or the hours (mandatory volunteering perhaps)?

Also any reason why someone would say Columbia post-bac isn't a first tier program?

 

[cactusman]

Also any reason why someone would say Columbia post-bac isn't a first tier program?

Because there's a lot of people anywhere who have no idea what they're talking about.

 

[efle]

The weed-out is because of the grading, it's all on a curve, and the student population there at Columbia is very competitive.

I've never even heard of "first tier" post bacc , let alone heard that Columbia was or wasn't one

 

[BtmoreRavens18]

If you want to do genetics research then you need to go to graduate school either for an MS or a PhD. If you want a high level of autonomy over the research you do, then you need the PhD. I am currently finishing up a PhD and help with admissions at my program so I can give you some advice on this.

1. You absolutely need a solid bio background before you start anything else. You should not under any circumstances start at the graduate level - although its probably impossible to get accepted anyway without undergrad science courses. I am not sure a postbac program would suit you, they are very geared towards medical school admissions and a lot of the prerequisites you won't need for graduate school. You could just take classes at an undergrad institution and go from there. You should take 2 semesters of intro bio, 2 semesters of intro chem. Multiple upper level courses in bio: molecular, cell, genetics, organismal and biochem. I should warn you at this point that I don't think I know of a single student in my program who has ever been accepted without a BS in a biologically related science so you will need to take a lot of undergraduate courses.

2. Once you are up to speed on coursework wise you need to get research experience. This is absolutely the most crucial part of a PhD application. You mentioned PhD programs having "low bars" for admission - this is incorrect, PhD programs just focus primarily on research experience rather than grades/scores. You need decent grades and a decent GRE score, but the bulk of what you will be judged on is your research experience - you should have several years worth, most successful applicants have publications and your LOR from PI's you have done research for are very important. Most of my classmates had done several years worth of part time research in undergrad including a few summers and then taken 1-3 years off to work full time as a research technician. Most of them had publications and presentations and at the very least an independent undergraduate thesis. The most important thing you need to do to get into a PhD program is demonstrate the ability to do independent research. The best bet is to ask to volunteer in labs wherever you take your undergraduate courses and then apply for a position as a research technician and work there for a year or two before applying.

3. Apply to graduate programs the fall-winter before you want to start. You say you want to go to a top school - these are primarily to big research universities. Remember, PhD admissions are very different than other graduate programs or medial school. They are looking or a single, very specific skill - ability to perform independent research. This can only be demonstrated by substantial, long-term research experiences, publications/presentations and LOR from faculty you have done research with. Your grades, test scores etc must be above board but aren't nearly as important. Also, if accepted to a PhD program you do not pay tuition and will receive a modest but livable stipend so you won't have to worry about graduate loans. Most programs are 5-7 years long.

Nice to see that you made it! It seems that I may be taking the easier route since it would just be post-bac and then non-MD grad school. I agree that there is a big trade off financially but I'm literally sitting in my chair doing mindless work (how I feel anyways) in exchange for money. I feel like I'm wasting my life. In the short-term I have enough savings to live comfortably, though I will for sure be taking out loans to finance grad program. At the end of the day I don't think I'm walking into financial ruin because in the absolutely worst case scenario I can't think of any reason why I wouldn't be welcomed back to the current industry if I fail to find anything genetics related, considering that I would then have a scientific background which would be tremendously marketable as a healthcare analyst. I doubt biotech VCs would welcome me since I have literally zero healthcare experience, and in any case it would be similar to my current job, analyzing companies that I don't give a crap about.

I don't think I could handle being a surgeon, the pressure must be insane! Would rather relax in the lab.

This is a long and arduous road and based on some of you previous comments I'm not quite sure you understand what you're getting yourself into. There will be no 'relaxing' in lab!!!! This is an enormously stressful career and PI's constantly have to fight to keep their labs afloat. I suggest you find someone working in research and talk to them about their day to day life before you go any further down this road.

Also, many of the graduates from my program end up leaving research going into healthcare VC! Guess the grass is always greener!