polo8250

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So I work at a resturant in town and I overhear one of my cutomers speaking about residency. I thought maybe they were talking about med school, speicfically NSU because it is the only med school nearby. I asked him and he was actually talking about pharmacy school. I mentioned most likely I was going to be attending NSU for the DO program. He was like wow, thats great..its tough..blah blah blah. Then his wife interjected and said, " after you get your D.O. you should really try and reach higher and get the M.D.":eek:

The she went on and on about how she is a pharm tech. and all the pharmacists rag on D.O.s all the time...etc. I went on to tell her that you can't get an MD and a DO. DOs are licenced physicans and do the same thing as MDs, they just have a different approach. I told her I know a lot of bias exists against DOs like at her pharmacy but I can handle explaining it to people. I think she realized she struck a nerve with me and went on to cut down nurses.

I just couldn't believe she would say this, especially being a pharm tech...more importantly with her husband attending and working alongside with D.Os at NSU. Ugh+pissed+

I will try to be positive though, just another chance to inform the ignorant.
 

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polo8250,

Try not let it get you down. There are some people out there that absolutely have no idea what a osteopath is. Sounds like you handled the situation well. I think that doctors, in general, get bashed by a lot of individuals anyway, regardless of having a DO or MD after their name. Don't let this experience make you decide against becoming a DO. No matter what you do in life, you will always have to explain yourself to someone.

Aaron
 
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Speaking as a clinical pharmacist and a newly admitted D.O. Student I would say that SHE IS AN IGNORANT PHARM TECH! Her husband may soon find out that even as a Pharm.D. clinical pharmacist, you will be cut down by MD/DO because some of them have had no prior experiences with pharmacists. They don't have a clue about what we know or how important some drug interactions are, or appropriate kinetic dosing, etc.. So don't feel bad. I work at a large academic teaching hospital that has MD and DO's as residents and attendings and they seem to get along fine. You will find in the medical community that there are some people who will always cut down others, ie: medicine vs surgery, medicine vs. radiology or where you went to medical school. I think those people just have a self esteem problem. Just like that pharm tech who went on to cut down nurses...I think she has a self esteem problem! Ignore those people and be happy with what you do, MD or DO or Pharm.D or RN or CPhT whatever...we are all try to help our patients.

Adrian
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PublicHealth

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When A.T. Still tried to incorporate osteopathy into mainstream medicine, his efforts were immediately rebuffed. Osteopathy and chiropractic were, at the time, drugless forms of healthcare that used manual manipulation as a means to restore health. A.T. Still was adamantly opposed to using drugs. Although Still tried to incorporate osteopathy into mainstream medicine, US healthcare at the time was dominated by allopathic medicine and the American Medical Association. Consequently, practitioners of osteopathy waged protracted battles against allopathic medicine and the AMA for nearly a century in order to establish their own professional identity and credibility. Ultimately, these efforts culminated in DOs acheiving full practice rights to diagnose, prescribe medications, and perform surgery in all 50 US states.

Today, osteopathic medicine continues to suffer from an identity crisis. Think about it, what makes osteopathic medicine so unique when more than 60% of osteopathic graduates go on to allopathic residencies? Moreover, the boundaries between osteopathic and allopathic medicine are becoming so blurred that it's becoming difficult to distinguish between DOs and MDs in any objective manner. The majority of DOs do not use OMT in practice (Johnson et al., 1997, JAMA), and the holistic philosophy, once thought to be unique to osteopathic medicine, is now increasing in interest among allopathic practitioners (Howell, 1999, NEJM). Studies have also shown that osteopathic medicine receives less general acceptance among MDs than massage therapy, relaxation techniques, acupuncture, and self-help groups (McPartland et al., 1999, JAOA).

So what is osteopathic medicine? If it's so similar to allopathic medicine in practice and in scope, how is it legitimately distinct as an independent medical profession?

For more information, read this article:

Soc Sci Med. 2002 Dec;55(12):2141-8.

Perceptions of philosophic and practice differences between US osteopathic physicians and their allopathic counterparts.

Johnson SM, Kurtz ME.

Department of Family and Community Medicine, Michigan State University College of Osteopathic Medicine, Michigan State University, East Lansing, MI 48824-1316, USA. [email protected]

Data were gathered through a random national mail survey of 3000 US osteopathic physicians. Nine hundred and fifty-five questionnaires were usable for analysis. Through open-ended questions, osteopathic physicians identified philosophic and practice differences that distinguished them from their allopathic counterparts, and whether they believed the use of osteopathic manipulative treatment (OMT), a key identifiable feature of the osteopathic profession, was appropriate in their specialty. Seventy-five percent of the respondents to the question regarding philosophic differences answered positively, and 41 percent of the follow-up responses indicated that holistic medicine was the most distinguishing characteristic of their profession. In response to the question on practice differences, 59 percent of the respondents believed they practiced differently from allopathic physicians, and 72 percent of the follow-up responses indicated that the osteopathic approach to treatment was a primary distinguishing feature, mainly incorporating the application of OMT, a caring doctor-patient relationship, and a hands-on style. More respondents who specialized in osteopathic manipulative medicine and family practice perceived differences between them and their allopathic counterparts than did other practitioners. Almost all respondents believed OMT was an efficacious treatment, but 19 percent of all respondents felt use of OMT was inappropriate in their specialty. Thirty-one percent of the pediatricians and 38 percent of the non-primary care specialists shared this view. Eighty-eight percent of the respondents had a self-identification as osteopathic physicians, but less than half felt their patients identified them as such. When responses are considered in the context of all survey respondents (versus only those who provided open-ended responses) not a single philosophic concept or resultant practice behavior had concurrence from more than a third of the respondents as distinguishing osteopathic from allopathic medicine. Rank and file osteopathic practitioners seem to be struggling for a legitimate professional identification. The outcome of this struggle is bound to have an impact on health care delivery in the US.

Copyright 2002 Elsevier Science Ltd.
 

sholly

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In these instances, what is the easiest way to explain to people what a DO is?....besides the obvious that a DO is a doctor.
 

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As the boundaries blur, we can still say that a DO has additional training over and above what an MD has. In fact, this additional training in reflected in residency; A DO can go into a MD residency, but a MD cannot go into a DO residency. From a traditional sense, DOs have always used a more holistic approach, regardless if MDs are just starting to catch on. Right from the beginning DOs did not ?bleed? their patients, or give them chemicals that would induce acute vomiting or diarrhea ? something that was very a common practice for an MD.
 

stomper627

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Originally posted by BACMEDIC
As the boundaries blur, we can still say that a DO has additional training over and above what an MD has. In fact, this additional training in reflected in residency; A DO can go into a MD residency, but a MD cannot go into a DO residency. From a traditional sense, DOs have always used a more holistic approach, regardless if MDs are just starting to catch on. Right from the beginning DOs did not ?bleed? their patients, or give them chemicals that would induce acute vomiting or diarrhea ? something that was very a common practice for an MD.

I really wish people would stop being so ignorant in their explaination of what a DO is. The above stuff is irrelevant and not true. The whole notion of "additional training" and "holistic approach" is a bunch of crap.
The differences are very small....and mainly only exist in academia...which is NOT the real world.
The main differences are:
1)preclinical education in OMT, less focus on pharmacology, less focus on biostatistics, less focus on behavior science (not sure why this is less....perhaps those in the education feel since were so adept at "reading" people with our OMM skills we dont need the focus :laugh: :laugh: )
2) In the clinical setting we can bill for OMT. Brings in a large revenue, with doing very little work.
Beyond those 2 statements there is NO DIFFERENCE!!!!!
stomper
 

Docgeorge

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I dont know about your school, but the only thing were really lacking is biostats....we have behivioral med and pharm out the wazoo.
 

that dr. jack

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Maybe she's just bitter and unhappy with her own life, and feels better to trash everyone else- D.O.s, nurses, and the like. This on top of ignorence is a very toxic thing.

You will probably come across many more people just like her in your career, but keep your head up because you know what you are.
 

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I wouldn't worry about it much. There are snobs who bash family doctors especially in the medical field because they believe FPs are the lowest of the doctors. There are snobs who bash caribbean MDs for the same reason.

There's always going to be someone bashing someone. You can't let it get to you much or else you will be a depressed person.
 
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stomper627

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Originally posted by Docgeorge
I dont know about your school, but the only thing were really lacking is biostats....we have behivioral med and pharm out the wazoo.

Look at the differences in the COMpLEX and USMLE....then restate your comment. Im talking about osteopathic education IN GENERAL!!!
 

calcrew14

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Originally posted by PublicHealth
When A.T. Still tried to incorporate osteopathy into mainstream medicine, his efforts were immediately rebuffed. Osteopathy and chiropractic were, at the time, drugless forms of healthcare that used manual manipulation as a means to restore health. A.T. Still was adamantly opposed to using drugs. Although Still tried to incorporate osteopathy into mainstream medicine, US healthcare at the time was dominated by allopathic medicine and the American Medical Association. Consequently, practitioners of osteopathy waged protracted battles against allopathic medicine and the AMA for nearly a century in order to establish their own professional identity and credibility. Ultimately, these efforts culminated in DOs acheiving full practice rights to diagnose, prescribe medications, and perform surgery in all 50 US states.

Today, osteopathic medicine continues.............

Do you happen to know if, and how much, DOs were prescribing drugs, or performing surgery, by the time they achieved full practice rights to diagnose,prescribe medications, and perform surgery in all 50 US states?

What if those pioneers did burn all allopathic bridges behind them?
 

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stomper,

You stated that what I said is untrue. I don't understand.

I said that MDs used to bleed their pts or stuff chemicals down them, which is one reason that Still broke away. Your saying this is not true?

I said that DOs have additional training - OMM. Are you saying that DOs do not have this training or that MDs also have this training? Which is it?

Also, I was not aware that an MD could go into a DO residency. Specifically, what DO residency program will accept MDs?

I feel that the two ways of practicing medicine are merging, and I?ll grant you that is only my opinion. However, I would be very interested in knowing why you think the two fields are not blurring. Other than OMM, what do you feel is still very distinct differences in the two practices?

There should be some means of updating all this info. How would you suggest that we get Gallagher to change his book "Osteopathic Medicine - A Reformation in Progress" corrected, as well as the other books on the history of the subject corrected?
 

OnMyWayThere

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There are a lot of bitter people out there who get a joy of putting people down. As another poster stated, she may have been bitter. I have met quite a few bitter people in my ventures and have learned to just say to myself "F" 'em and everything they say goes into one ear and out the other. Whether it is ignorance or bitterness causing people to have smart remarks like hers, I am not going to waste my time explaining unless someone kindly asks what the difference is. Whoa, I have to take the MCAT first, study time. :horns:
 

stomper627

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Originally posted by BACMEDIC
stomper,

You stated that what I said is untrue. I don't understand.

I said that MDs used to bleed their pts or stuff chemicals down them, which is one reason that Still broke away. Your saying this is not true?

I said that DOs have additional training - OMM. Are you saying that DOs do not have this training or that MDs also have this training? Which is it?

Also, I was not aware that an MD could go into a DO residency. Specifically, what DO residency program will accept MDs?

I feel that the two ways of practicing medicine are merging, and I?ll grant you that is only my opinion. However, I would be very interested in knowing why you think the two fields are not blurring. Other than OMM, what do you feel is still very distinct differences in the two practices?

There should be some means of updating all this info. How would you suggest that we get Gallagher to change his book "Osteopathic Medicine - A Reformation in Progress" corrected, as well as the other books on the history of the subject corrected?


Actually what I stated was that your statement was "irrelevant" and "untrue"

lets look at your statement:

Originally posted by BACMEDIC
As the boundaries blur, we can still say that a DO has additional training over and above what an MD has.

Not true....the educations are different. And that ONLY includes your preclinical years.....OR if you decide to do a rotation in OMM. Otherwise you will be getting the exact same education in the clinical years....mind I remind you THIS is where medicine is learned.


In fact, this additional training in reflected in residency; A DO can go into a MD residency, but a MD cannot go into a DO residency.

True but irrelevant. Yes, MDs cannot go into a DO residency....and DOs can get MD residencies. Well they better be able to....the AOA does not have enough AOA residencies for us. They have created this mess, by allowing new schools to open, creating a surplus of new DOs without creating new residency slots. The quality of the residencies are also not as good.



From a traditional sense, DOs have always used a more holistic approach, regardless if MDs are just starting to catch on.

Not true....and irrelevant. I grew up in an allopathic world...my father is a family doc....an MD....and all of his partners have always treated the patient "as a whole". They have "treated the patient, not just the symptoms" and all that other AOA claiming crap. Highly untrue....and irrelevant.


Right from the beginning DOs did not ?bleed? their patients, or give them chemicals that would induce acute vomiting or diarrhea ? something that was very a common practice for an MD.

Yes, once again....true but irrelevant. Those things did happen. But come on....get over it. That is a defensive statement....and only creates more of a problem. Do we still fault those 1000 years ago for believing the world was flat? It was a different time, and era. Besides, read a little about what AT Still did. He "took" a lot of his ideas from the Native Americans. Interesting huh?
Please people, quit making this out to be something its not....or you will continue the cycle. the AOA wants to be treated the same, yet keep itself different....where have I heard this before....."Separate, but Equal" Yeah that works!!!
We are the same....we just happen to have something extra in our back pocket that we can bill for....THATS IT!
stomper
 

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what do you mean about Still and the Native Americans? what is the statement supposed to mean?

just wondering... never heard there was a link?
 

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POLO--

the fact of the matter is--there's no moral equivilent to saving a human life, much less thousands. The aforementioned will become commonplace convention in your career as a doctor. Gently remind your detractors of this--as it easily trumps anything said/about to be said.

After that, you mention that in the end everyone wants the respect due to them--and if they expect any consideration in reciprocity they better change their tone.

that is all.
 

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Tnanks to Biryani and the others who posted helpful & supportive comments. I will keep them in mind for the future when I will deal with someone like this again. :)
 

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It happened to me today, too. It was aweful: a gunner in my class who "ripped me off" (to borrow the phrase from my hippie friends) and bashed DO's. I didn't even see it coming:mad:
 

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So I was at a bar, waiting in line to use the bathroom. It was loud and I was making small talk with the guy in front of me, who i had just met, but was a friend of a friend. He asked me what i did and I told him I was going to school (I don?t like to throw around the fact I go to medical school unless people are genuinely interested.). But then he asked where and I told him.
?What?s Osteopathic medicine?? he replied. To which I stated that it was like and MD who learned PT, a hybrid if you will. Now keep in mind that the bar was real loud so I didn?t want to go into a huge explanation worthy of the profession, but I also didn?t want him to think I was a quasi-chiropractor(no-offense). So I have two questions.

1) Did I just sell out?
2) What would have been a better quick answer, for the average joe?...I think there was a thread about this awhile back but I don?t think any conclusion was reached.
 

Chrisobean

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Originally posted by Cowboy DO
So I was at a bar, waiting in line to use the bathroom. It was loud and I was making small talk with the guy in front of me, who i had just met, but was a friend of a friend. He asked me what i did and I told him I was going to school (I don?t like to throw around the fact I go to medical school unless people are genuinely interested.). But then he asked where and I told him.
?What?s Osteopathic medicine?? he replied. To which I stated that it was like and MD who learned PT, a hybrid if you will. Now keep in mind that the bar was real loud so I didn?t want to go into a huge explanation worthy of the profession, but I also didn?t want him to think I was a quasi-chiropractor(no-offense). So I have two questions.

1) Did I just sell out?
2) What would have been a better quick answer, for the average joe?...I think there was a thread about this awhile back but I don?t think any conclusion was reached.

there's nothing wrong with that answer. no need to go into depth about AT Still's philosopy while waiting in line to pee... in a situation like that, i think you described it well. essentially, thats exactly what it is, a doctor who learns OMM (and describing it as PT is pretty accurate in itself). the only time that would warrant a deeper explanation would probably be to a patient you are treating. i gave a very similar explanation to my aunt the other day during movie previews in the theater. she understood, and i think most people would. i dont see it as selling out. i also followed that thread in the Osteo forum, and a conclusion was not reached. i think that each situation will determine what kind of answer you give. sell out ;)
 

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Chrisobean,

How did your interview go? Have you heard anything back yet? I wish you luck.

Cowboy DO,

I dont think you sold out. To fully explain osteopathic philosophy would not have been expediant at that time. Keep your chin up.

Aaron
 

Chrisobean

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Originally posted by Aaron Earles
Chrisobean,

How did your interview go? Have you heard anything back yet? I wish you luck.


thanks!!
im anxiously waiting!!!! i should hear pretty soon, i hope! i honestly cant gauge how well it went, we had a pleasant conversation, but it was short, and i was nervous and forgot to say alot of things i wanted to. so instead of dwelling on that fact, im just gonna WAIT!
 

Aaron Earles

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Originally posted by Chrisobean
thanks!!
im anxiously waiting!!!! i should hear pretty soon, i hope! i honestly cant gauge how well it went, we had a pleasant conversation, but it was short, and i was nervous and forgot to say alot of things i wanted to. so instead of dwelling on that fact, im just gonna WAIT!

Chrisobean,

I am sure that you did fine. Please let us know when you find out. Good luck to you Chrisobean. See you soon.

Aaron
 
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