First year D.O. struggling with getting good grades....is surgery no longer an option?

[Aloe paleo]

Hey D.O. Students!
I am in my first year of med school (D.O.) and my marks are all over the place, 70's, 80's, 90's, mainly low 80's unfortunately. I get that I've only been in school for a couple of months, but my marks are not great. Is this really going to set me back from matching into surgery? Anyone can share any experiences? i still feel like i am adjusting. Thanks!

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[AnatomyGrey12]

It won’t help, but boards will matter a lot more.

 

[Chicken Bone]

It won’t help, but boards will matter a lot more.

class rank and publications which one is more important? I am a first-year too I am kind of losing my motivation to study (only want to study four hours a day at max, most of the time I didn't even start reviewing until in the morning of exam day), I have been consistently scoring a little less than class average (like two points below for the past two blocks), I am spending more time on doing some projects and writing my manuscripts/ proposals now

 

[Hematochezia666]

Hey D.O. Students!
I am in my first year of med school (D.O.) and my marks are all over the place, 70's, 80's, 90's, mainly low 80's unfortunately. I get that I've only been in school for a couple of months, but my marks are not great. Is this really going to set me back from matching into surgery? Anyone can share any experiences? i still feel like i am adjusting. Thanks!

Think of where you’re at. Grades are relative compared to the average. Stop focusing on matching and focus on school. You need basic medicine before you can start thinking about that.

also boards. this is obvious.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

class rank and publications which one is more important? I am a first-year too I am kind of losing my motivation to study (only want to study four hours a day at max, most of the time I didn't even start reviewing until in the morning of exam day), I have been consistently scoring a little less than class average (like two points below for the past two blocks), I am spending more time on doing some projects and writing my manuscripts/ proposals now

boards matter most. As for rank I wouldn’t drop any lower than where you’re at, it matters more for the top and bottom people.

 

[Aloe paleo]

i dont know if this makes any difference, but im in the quarter system. i feel like i messed up my first quarter, but hopefully i can learn from it and do better next quarter. really hope its not too late, as I really wanted surgery. i found for me i was doing quite well and then in the middle of the semester i got so behind all of a sudden and felt like things went down hill from there.

 

[Chicken Bone]

i dont know if this makes any difference, but im in the quarter system. i feel like i messed up my first quarter, but hopefully i can learn from it and do better next quarter. really hope its not too late, as I really wanted surgery. i found for me i was doing quite well and then in the middle of the semester i got so behind all of a sudden and felt like things went down hill from there.

lower 80s = massed up the quarter? your class average is like 90+? this whole remote thing is weird our class average is much much higher than ever before people definitely cheated during those "secured" exams

 

[Aloe paleo]

lower 80s = massed up the quarter? your class average is like 90+? this whole remote thing is weird our class average is much much higher than ever before people definitely cheated during those "secured" exams

yah averages usually low 90's and I feel really stupid

 

[DO2015CA]

Do what you can. Don’t get discouraged. Work hard and study for boards. Do away rotations. Just know that surgery is competitive for DOs even if you are killing it then you may not get it. You have to be okay with that.

 

[Hematochezia666]

yah averages usually low 90's and I feel really stupid

I wish I had that. Exam averages are in the low 70's at my school. 1/3 of my class failed our first exam.

 

[deleted859689]

yah averages usually low 90's and I feel really stupid

Everyone learns differently. Average for our class (1st year) was low 80s on exams. Have you tried different study strategies? Our surgery club president says boards and rotations during 3rd and 4th year matter more. Grades can only hurt if you are in the bottom quartile, or help if you are in the top quartile. If you are between, I've heard it doesn't matter too much. Low 90s for your class seems nuts lol. Do you just get straight recall questions with no second order questions? I study my ass off with like 1k anki cards to get my grades. Our school has a 100% match rate, so as long as I'm passing I and don't do something crazy I know one day I'll be some kind of doctor lol.

Do you have an academic help center for your medical school? Try talking to classmates or upperclassmen to find out which study strategy works for you. I like learning from slides and anki, but anki feels more like a game to me and gets me more focused. I make my own cards so that helps with active review. I actually rewrite sentences based on my understanding of the material. Some people in my class share their anki cards based on lecture and that helps too on time. e.g. learn from slides and watch lecture a few times then do the cards.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

Do what you can. Don’t get discouraged. Work hard and study for boards. Do away rotations. Just know that surgery is competitive for DOs even if you are killing it then you may not get it. You have to be okay with that.

General surgery isn’t, according to 2020 nrmp charting outcomes double the number of DO’s matched with 220-229(below average step-1) then unmatched. It’s not a cake-walk but I wouldn’t think it’s “competitive “...

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

General surgery isn’t, according to 2020 nrmp charting outcomes double the number of DO’s matched with 220-229(below average step-1) then unmatched. It’s not a cake-walk but I wouldn’t think it’s “competitive “...

Surgery is competitive. No it’s not ortho level but to say it isn’t competitive isn’t correct.

 

[Real McCoy]

If your school's averages are in the 90s on exams, your school's exams are doing very little to prepare you for the boards. Putting yourself "below average" at that point is fairly meaningless. There will be people who score at the average on your school's exams who perform poorly on the boards because of a false sense of security (not everyone, but there will be some). Do the best you can within the system, but focus more on doing well on your board exams.

 

[slowthai]

If your school's averages are in the 90s on exams, your school's exams are doing very little to prepare you for the boards. Putting yourself "below average" at that point is fairly meaningless. There will be people who score at the average on your school's exams who perform poorly on the boards because of a false sense of security (not everyone, but there will be some). Do the best you can within the system, but focus more on doing well on your board exams.

Exam averages have nothing to do with board performance. Some poorly written exams are not the determinant of your future; you are. This is what I wish people would understand. Furthermore, it's total propaganda that high preclinical grades = high board scores. These schools just want people to stop blowing off their obsolete curricula. It's ridiculous.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

Surgery is competitive. No it’s not ortho level but to say it isn’t competitive isn’t correct.

We just have a different definition of “competitive”, but in reality it’s not even in the same realm as ortho, you can match general surgery somewhere with a 220 as a DO, that would be almost impossible for ortho, derm etc... also general surgery has a terrible residency and not the same draw as other surgical subs, i would say it’s average competitive at best, even obgyn might be more competitive right now...

 

[Chicken Bone]

I wish I had that. Exam averages are in the low 70's at my school. 1/3 of my class failed our first exam.

wow, in person or remote at home?

 

[scoopdaboop]

wow, in person or remote at home?

sounds like KCU

 

[Ho0v-man]

We just have a different definition of “competitive”, but in reality it’s not even in the same realm as ortho, you can match general surgery somewhere with a 220 as a DO, that would be almost impossible for ortho, derm etc... also general surgery has a terrible residency and not the same draw as other surgical subs, i would say it’s average competitive at best, even obgyn might be more competitive right now...

If you look at the numbers, someone in the 220s only has a 65% chance of matching. Not exactly awesome. By the numbers, you really aren’t safe until the 230s. So your average surgery candidate is literally an above average med student.

But bro you can’t just look at boards for surgical fields. If you did that, you’d think gen surgery is only slightly more competitive than anesthesia since a 230s applicant both have match rates in the 80s. But that gen surg applicant has to do multiple auditions and do well enough to impress residents and attendings. They legitimately have to perform. Most of these cats have pubs too. I have a high step 1 and I’d have a tough time matching general surgery because that’s only one part of putting together the app for it.

Meanwhile the guy/gal applying anesthesia just has to have a board score and a generic LOR from a 2-4 week rotation where the only requirement is being chill.

 

[Goro]

Hey D.O. Students!
I am in my first year of med school (D.O.) and my marks are all over the place, 70's, 80's, 90's, mainly low 80's unfortunately. I get that I've only been in school for a couple of months, but my marks are not great. Is this really going to set me back from matching into surgery? Anyone can share any experiences? i still feel like i am adjusting. Thanks!

Stop thinking like a pre-med. You have three more years to develop your CV for residency.

I've had several students who were struggling to not great during their preclinical years.

However once they hit the clinic, they shined like Novas. They are now in surgical residencies.

 

[cantankerous]

lower 80s = massed up the quarter? your class average is like 90+? this whole remote thing is weird our class average is much much higher than ever before people definitely cheated during those "secured" exams

No one cheats better than premeds... those skills don't go away once in med school

 

[Hematochezia666]

wow, in person or remote at home?

In person. Was the same while remote last year too. They just made the exams harder.

 

[Hematochezia666]

sounds like KCU

ARCOM.

 

[DO2015CA]

Competitive isn’t black and white. It’s not just ortho or non-competitive. Scores only open the door in GS. OB has also become competitive. That’s why we call ortho/derm/etc ultra competitive specialties

 

[scoopdaboop]

No one cheats better than premeds... those skills don't go away once in med school

Except business students.

 

[Chicken Bone]

sounds like KCU

I am at KCU, class averages before the curve were highest in the history for the first two blocks, curve last year was around 10+ points, this year is around 3
fully remote secured exam with the camera on btw

 

[Aloe paleo]

Stop thinking like a pre-med. You have three more years to develop your CV for residency.

I've had several students who were struggling to not great during their preclinical years.

However once they hit the clinic, they shined like Novas. They are now in surgical residencies.

good to hear!

 

[Chicken Bone]

Stop thinking like a pre-med. You have three more years to develop your CV for residency.

I've had several students who were struggling to not great during their preclinical years.

However once they hit the clinic, they shined like Novas. They are now in surgical residencies.

hello I have a question, for the class rank how does it calculate? do schools report two separate ranks one for preclinical one for clinical?

 

[pogo]

I am a D.O. surgeon. Been out for 11 years, 16 counting residency. What really matters is doing well on your surgery rotations.

 

[Aloe paleo]

I am a D.O. surgeon. Been out for 11 years, 16 counting residency. What really matters is doing well on your surgery rotations.

Pogo, how did you find it adjusting to medical school? Did you ever find yourself struggling or overwhelmed? Im just scared this means im not cut out for it. im just in the beginning, and i want to improve. Good for you for being in surgery--goals!

 

[PunkRockMD]

Check out the MSPE, not crazy important but not unimportant either. I'd say that if your top 50% you're probably fine. Clerkship grades, boards matter more.

 

[Goro]

hello I have a question, for the class rank how does it calculate? do schools report two separate ranks one for preclinical one for clinical?

This is going to be school specific. I have no idea how my school does it.

 

[Goro]

Pogo, how did you find it adjusting to medical school? Did you ever find yourself struggling or overwhelmed? Im just scared this means im not cut out for it. im just in the beginning, and i want to improve. Good for you for being in surgery--goals!

Read this:

• Goro's Guide to Success in Medical School (2018 edition)

 

[jurassicpark]

Pogo, how did you find it adjusting to medical school? Did you ever find yourself struggling or overwhelmed? Im just scared this means im not cut out for it. im just in the beginning, and i want to improve. Good for you for being in surgery--goals!

Take a deep breath, exhale. Take a big swig of beer, repeat as many times as necessary. Do not try to breathe while guzzling beer.

As you said, you're just in the beginning. It is overwhelming for just about everyone except a lucky few (jerks). You may have been the hotshot in college, but everyone around you were too, and everyone is struggling. You will find your pace and rhythm, and the school should have resources, TA, tutoring, etc to help you if you need it.

Look at the graph presented above. Pogo rightly told you to rock your clinicals. Absolutely rocking your boards are also key. This is just the beginning of a very long marathon, but they key checkpoints are still ahead of you.

 

[Aloe paleo]

Take a deep breath, exhale. Take a big swig of beer, repeat as many times as necessary. Do not try to breathe while guzzling beer.

As you said, you're just in the beginning. It is overwhelming for just about everyone except a lucky few (jerks). You may have been the hotshot in college, but everyone around you were too, and everyone is struggling. You will find your pace and rhythm, and the school should have resources, TA, tutoring, etc to help you if you need it.

Look at the graph presented above. Pogo rightly told you to rock your clinicals. Absolutely rocking your boards are also key. This is just the beginning of a very long marathon, but they key checkpoints are still ahead of you.

Thanks so much for replying! Yes it feels so unreal to me how some people could be doing so well! I have a lot of respect for you and your specialty. Question out of curiosity: so in my school, due to covid, we are having prosection labs for anatomy, during which we spend about 45 minutes every couple of weeks with the prosected cadaver. Back in your first year of medical school, did you ever feel lost or confused during the cadaver labs and think like "how do I know which artery or which vein I'm looking at in the human body?" I can't wait for the day when I feel more comfortable in this field, but I know I will never know everything. Best wishes with your career!

 

[jmtbekm]

Thanks so much for replying! Yes it feels so unreal to me how some people could be doing so well! I have a lot of respect for you and your specialty. Question out of curiosity: so in my school, due to covid, we are having prosection labs for anatomy, during which we spend about 45 minutes every couple of weeks with the prosected cadaver. Back in your first year of medical school, did you ever feel lost or confused during the cadaver labs and think like "how do I know which artery or which vein I'm looking at in the human body?" I can't wait for the day when I feel more comfortable in this field, but I know I will never know everything. Best wishes with your career!

I’m not jurassicpark but yes, I feel that way frequently. The trick to anatomy is to know your relationships. Arteries and nerves are like roads on a map, muscles and bones are often landmarks. If you were traveling to a new place, before GPS, you would pull out a road atlas and look for where roads split, are renamed, etc. anatomy is the same way.

Approach the body like a huge roadmap. Take one compartment at a time, and learn the relationships. You should be going into prosections already knowing all these things, you’re just there to see what they look like on the actual bodies.

 

[Hematochezia666]

Thanks so much for replying! Yes it feels so unreal to me how some people could be doing so well! I have a lot of respect for you and your specialty. Question out of curiosity: so in my school, due to covid, we are having prosection labs for anatomy, during which we spend about 45 minutes every couple of weeks with the prosected cadaver. Back in your first year of medical school, did you ever feel lost or confused during the cadaver labs and think like "how do I know which artery or which vein I'm looking at in the human body?" I can't wait for the day when I feel more comfortable in this field, but I know I will never know everything. Best wishes with your career!

it's good to be somewhat uncomfortable, it makes you realize you don't know it all.