Flight Surgeon As A Non Traditional* Student

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f_inch

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Hi all,

I’ve been reading through posts on both SDN and reddit for the past few weeks about becoming a flight surgeon (particularly, within the navy). In that time I’ve read a lot of informative posts and had some really productive conversations with flight surgeons (s/o to Ravager135), but I still feel a bit unsure about my situation. I’m hoping some of you would be willing to offer your insight or share any similar experiences. If I’ve mistaken any of the steps or timelines here, please feel free to correct me.

I’m currently 26 years old and in my final year of a BS, in my first year (of two) of an MS, and applying to medical school this coming cycle. I scored well on the MCAT and have a competitive GPA, so should all things go as planned, I’ll be starting med school at 27 years old in the fall of 2020, and 31 by the time I finish.

If I go the non-military route, and assuming I pursue a non-surgical specialty (which is, of course, subject to change), that puts me at becoming a boarded physician at around 34 or 35, with all the debt that comes with it.

If I go the military route, I’d start internship at 31 and hopefully spend the next few years of my ADSO as a flight surgeon, and finish around 35. After that, I’d leave the military and apply for civilian residency. Again, assuming I pursue a non-surgical specialty, that puts me at becoming a boarded physician at around 38 or 39, with no debt.

To be clear, my motivation for wanting to become a flight surgeon doesn’t come from getting medical school paid off. While it's obviously wonderful perk, the reality is that I want a life full of unique and rewarding experiences, as well as the enjoyment and pride in service to country and the camaraderie therein (I realize that may be a romanticized perspective, though, so I can offer more context if you'd like). The caveat here that I struggle with is that those same experiences may likely require that I put aspects of personal life, like starting a family, on hold for a long time, and possibly jeopardize my financial stability in the long run by not making a civilian physician salary until much later in life (around 40, whereas traditional civilian physicians begin to earn that salary at around 30, albeit with debt). I've also read quite a bit about skill and knowledge atrophy, so that's also a large concern of mine with regards to beginning residency.

While I have many questions, my biggest one comes down to this - In your experience, does spending time as a flight surgeon with my age and timeline, seem like a worth while pursuit? I realize the answer is quite subjective, but I’d appreciate any and all information, words of wisdom, or considerations you have to offer. If you’d like me to elaborate further on anything, please let me know.

In addition - I've considered completing residency as a civilian and pursuing flight surgeon after, though I'm not exactly sure how that would work or what the pros and cons would be.

Thanks in advance!

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Dude, I thought you were like 40 or something. I started medical school at 26. Average age was like 25 in my class. I am only an MS3, so I can't say what being a flight surgeon is like. However, I can tell you I have had the exact same thought/plan as you (GMO -> GTFO). However, I decided I would rather get my residency done sooner, even though that means spending more time in the military ultimately.

You can do your residency in the military, come out at the age of 39 as a board certified physician with several years of practice under your belt, and have no debt. Thought about that? Now, if you are dead set on the Navy, this plan might not work out (pretty much guaranteed GMO from what I hear), but very realistic with Army or Air Force.
 
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Dude, I thought you were like 40 or something. I started medical school at 26. Average age was like 25 in my class. I am only an MS3, so I can't say what being a flight surgeon is like. However, I can tell you I have had the exact same thought/plan as you (GMO -> GTFO). However, I decided I would rather get my residency done sooner, even though that means spending more time in the military ultimately.

You can do your residency in the military, come out at the age of 39 as a board certified physician with several years of practice under your belt, and have no debt. Thought about that? Now, if you are dead set on the Navy, this plan might not work out (pretty much guaranteed GMO from what I hear), but very realistic with Army or Air Force.


Thanks for your reply! Unless I'm mistaken (which is certainly possible), doing a military residency increases ADSO, correct? If so, HPSP plus a 3 year residency would require 7 years of obligated service?
 
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The short answer is no, it would not be 7 years, there is a chart in the link below that breaks it down better, it is a really old post.

ADSO Time

forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/adso-time.505711/
 
Thanks for your reply! Unless I'm mistaken (which is certainly possible), doing a military residency increases ADSO, correct? If so, HPSP plus a 3 year residency would require 7 years of obligated service?

In short, no, your ADSO for HPSP is 4 years after residency. However, if you do something like neurosurgery (7 year residency), I believe you owe more years after residency. See the comment above mine.
 
Your active duty service obligation is equal to the number of years you take HPSP and the number of years of your actual residency, but you pay back both concurrently. Intern year neither adds time nor pays it back

So if you do 3 years HPSP and a 4 year residency (including 1 year of internship), you will pay back your obligation after three years of post-residency service.

If you do 4 years HPSP and a 7 year residency (including 1 year of internship), you will pay back your obligation after six years of post-residency service.
 
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Can we all agree that 26 year olds are not allowed to use the word "older"...ouch

Hahaha that’s fair. What I meant is older in comparison to many of my undergraduate peers taking the traditional route, but your point is well taken
 
As reported by US News & World Report in 2015: “The mean age of students entering medical school is 24 years, according to the Association of American Medical Colleges.”

26 is hardly even above the mean.
 
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As reported by US News & World Report in 2015: “The mean age of students entering medical school is 24 years, according to the Association of American Medical Colleges.”

26 is hardly even above the mean.

I would be starting at 27, but yes, I know.

I have no problem starting at 3 years over the average matriculant. My question is about whether or not any of you believe that the experiences being a FS can offer are worth delaying board certification, civilian life/salary, private life for another 4 years on top of that
 
Hi all,

I’ve been reading through posts on both SDN and reddit for the past few weeks about becoming a flight surgeon (particularly, within the navy). In that time I’ve read a lot of informative posts and had some really productive conversations with flight surgeons (s/o to Ravager135), but I still feel a bit unsure about my situation. I’m hoping some of you would be willing to offer your insight or share any similar experiences. If I’ve mistaken any of the steps or timelines here, please feel free to correct me.

I’m currently 26 years old and in my final year of a BS, in my first year (of two) of an MS, and applying to medical school this coming cycle. I scored well on the MCAT and have a competitive GPA, so should all things go as planned, I’ll be starting med school at 27 years old in the fall of 2020, and 31 by the time I finish.

If I go the non-military route, and assuming I pursue a non-surgical specialty (which is, of course, subject to change), that puts me at becoming a boarded physician at around 34 or 35, with all the debt that comes with it.

If I go the military route, I’d start internship at 31 and hopefully spend the next few years of my ADSO as a flight surgeon, and finish around 35. After that, I’d leave the military and apply for civilian residency. Again, assuming I pursue a non-surgical specialty, that puts me at becoming a boarded physician at around 38 or 39, with no debt.

To be clear, my motivation for wanting to become a flight surgeon doesn’t come from getting medical school paid off. While it's obviously wonderful perk, the reality is that I want a life full of unique and rewarding experiences, as well as the enjoyment and pride in service to country and the camaraderie therein (I realize that may be a romanticized perspective, though, so I can offer more context if you'd like). The caveat here that I struggle with is that those same experiences may likely require that I put aspects of personal life, like starting a family, on hold for a long time, and possibly jeopardize my financial stability in the long run by not making a civilian physician salary until much later in life (around 40, whereas traditional civilian physicians begin to earn that salary at around 30, albeit with debt). I've also read quite a bit about skill and knowledge atrophy, so that's also a large concern of mine with regards to beginning residency.

While I have many questions, my biggest one comes down to this - In your experience, does spending time as a flight surgeon with my age and timeline, seem like a worth while pursuit? I realize the answer is quite subjective, but I’d appreciate any and all information, words of wisdom, or considerations you have to offer. If you’d like me to elaborate further on anything, please let me know.

In addition - I've considered completing residency as a civilian and pursuing flight surgeon after, though I'm not exactly sure how that would work or what the pros and cons would be.

Thanks in advance!

Flight surgeon is almost a complete waste of time and effort. The level of medicine you practice as a flight surgeon, a smart high school kid with 10 hours of youtube training could easily do. Granted if you want to travel, go to dive school, jump school, etc. you can do some pretty 'cool,' stuff, but is that why you went to medical school?

I've had friends who've had to repeat their intern year at civilian programs after going military GMO because (I'm guessing) they were just so far removed from 'real medicine,' and were considered a liability.

Medical school is challenging and after all that time and effort, volunteering to be a GMO is the equivalent of medical blue balls (pardon my crassness), it's anti-climactic, pure and simple.

Pre-med/med students get hardwired into the process of delayed gratification, as in the mental trap that, 'one day, all my sacrifices will all be worth it.' Often times, it doesn't and if you are in military medicine, it almost certainly never will.

Going GMO is a waste of education, training and time --> the demands of residency don't get easier with age.

Don't go GMO.
 
Flight surgeon is almost a complete waste of time and effort. The level of medicine you practice as a flight surgeon, a smart high school kid with 10 hours of youtube training could easily do. Granted if you want to travel, go to dive school, jump school, etc. you can do some pretty 'cool,' stuff, but is that why you went to medical school?

I've had friends who've had to repeat their intern year at civilian programs after going military GMO because (I'm guessing) they were just so far removed from 'real medicine,' and were considered a liability.

Medical school is challenging and after all that time and effort, volunteering to be a GMO is the equivalent of medical blue balls (pardon my crassness), it's anti-climactic, pure and simple.

Pre-med/med students get hardwired into the process of delayed gratification, as in the mental trap that, 'one day, all my sacrifices will all be worth it.' Often times, it doesn't and if you are in military medicine, it almost certainly never will.

Going GMO is a waste of education, training and time --> the demands of residency don't get easier with age.

Don't go GMO.

Something concerning I've heard is that going GMO quite frequently causes substantial skill/knowledge atrophy, which can be really damaging to being successful in residency later on. So thanks for sharing your insight there, exactly the type of info I was looking for!
 
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I would be starting at 27, but yes, I know.

I have no problem starting at 3 years over the average matriculant. My question is about whether or not any of you believe that the experiences being a FS can offer are worth delaying board certification, civilian life/salary, private life for another 4 years on top of that

Only you can answer that. What do you hope to gain from a flight surgery tour? If it is the amazing diversity of patients and clinical conditions then, no, it wouldn’t be worth it because you won’t see that. If you would be looking for opportunities to work with people and ride in aircraft that no other physicians get, then yes.
 
I don't think anyone disputes that significant skill atrophy occurs with FS tours. Even of intern level skills. I had to really climb and compete when I went back into civilian residency after 4 yrs. So that's a known risk.

The other risk: you may not get to do cool guy stuff. In the Army they phased out the only helo you could front seat (I put in quite a few hrs on it). A lot of AF flight surgeons log their hours flying in the back of tankers and transports. Very few dual seat opportunities outside of fighter training squadrons. Some Navy guys get pigeonholed into clinics where they are owned by admin and hospital instead of being squadron medical assets. Look up Claimancy 18 billets. They struggle to meet their minimums.

My flight surgeon experience was pretty unique for a variety of reasons; mostly b/c I spent most of it deployed flying medevac and air assaults. Definitely not the norm. I would say in fact the norm is better represented by the guy seeing snotty noses in clinic and having to argue with COC to get his 4 hrs for flight pay monthly.

Are there some guys who have great experiences? Sure. There was a blue angels flight doc on here a while back. Coops experience is unique b/c he's already in the community. A lucky few get to ride once a month in the back and hold the stick in a fighter and throw up into their flight suits...you'll get to fly a little bit down in Pensacola but buyer beware...if you're looking for guaranteed adventure save up some vacay and take private flying lessons b/c you may be disappointed with the flight surgeon life.

- ex 61N
 
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