FM Boarded Hospitalist - looking to do Critical Care

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

doctorette

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2014
Messages
54
Reaction score
12
Hi there. I am ABFM Boarded and have practiced as a hospitalist for nearly 5 years. I'd really like to do a crit care fellowship, which I obviously cannot do as an FM. I want to go back to residency, either IM or EM so that I can ultimately do CC fellowship. Looking for advice on where to start as I am honestly lost. Do I apply to residency just like everyone else? I know I can get a 6-12 month credit for my FM residency. How do I qualify for that? Would I need to get in as PGY-1 first?

Any tips/suggestions are welcome. Thank you

Members don't see this ad.
 
You might have to ask each program individually how many months they can take off for your FM experience, and they'll most likely start you as a PGY 1.5 or PGY 2 right off the bat.

Do you want CC that much? If you start as a PGY-2, that's 2 years to finish IM residency. Then 2 years of CC fellowship, so that's an additional 4 years minimum. I am also not entirely sure about this, but I believe EM is moving towards a 4-year residency, but I could be completely wrong.
 
Hi there. I am ABFM Boarded and have practiced as a hospitalist for nearly 5 years. I'd really like to do a crit care fellowship, which I obviously cannot do as an FM. I want to go back to residency, either IM or EM so that I can ultimately do CC fellowship. Looking for advice on where to start as I am honestly lost. Do I apply to residency just like everyone else? I know I can get a 6-12 month credit for my FM residency. How do I qualify for that? Would I need to get in as PGY-1 first?

Any tips/suggestions are welcome. Thank you
I would say you might have a chance at picking something out if you reach out to program directors indiivdually and explain your background. Sometimes they have holes in their programs that they can fill outside the match but I would expect that you will need to re-match and anticipate you probably have to complete the entire program.

Keep in mind CCM only fellowships have gotten more competitive and you might not be able to match as well as you could have with a fresh background. You will probably get a CCM spot somewhere but it is not a shoe in like it was 10 years ago.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
you would really be willing to back to residency to have the chance to apply to fellowship which isn't even guaranteed for an eventual job that may not even pay more than a hospitalist?
 
Sign up for SOAP and grab one of the many empty EM spots that will likely be available in the upcoming 2025 match. Negotiate credit for FM time. EM will give you access to IM-CCM, anesthesia-CCM, and surgery-CC. The anesthesia and surgery spots can be easier to land than the IM ones.

The alternative is to work as a hospitalist in one of the rural spots that don’t have intensivists and get your fix of some light ICU work that way. The key here is to be aware of the limitations of your facility and your own self, which can be very hard to do. At the end of the day, you don't know what you don't know.

Going through the real training is the way to go if you want to practice high level critical care medicine at a large institution.
 
Last edited:
The alternative is to work as a hospitalist in one of the rural spots that don’t have intensivists and get your fix of some light ICU work that way. The key here is to be aware of the limitations of your facility and your own self, which can be very hard to do. At the end of the day, you don't know what you don't know.

I would absolutely do this instead of doing a second residency. You could event get credentialed in some procedures, right? (why not, we let NPs do them).

Why don't we have a pathway for FM-CCM ? We let EM, Anes (who know nothing of long-term hospital medicine straight out of their residencies) do critical care fellowships, we don't allow FM?
 
I would absolutely do this instead of doing a second residency. You could event get credentialed in some procedures, right? (why not, we let NPs do them).

Why don't we have a pathway for FM-CCM ? We let EM, Anes (who know nothing of long-term hospital medicine straight out of their residencies) do critical care fellowships, we don't allow FM?

Anyone can get credentialed for procedures these days. I do worry about airways in the hands of someone who isn’t formally trained but not too many others seem to be worried about that. I’ve seen my share of airways gone wrong in the hands of the untrained and the resultant post cardiac arrest severely brain injured patients. However, if one has the strong urge to get their ICU fix and is comfortable with the liability, I’m sure some hospital out there in the boonies will gladly credential them to save a few bucks on paying for a real intensivist.

There are exceptions but FM residency in general is highly unlikely to provide comparable ICU/acute care exposure to IM, anesthesiology, EM or surgery, especially given the minimum ACGME requirement to graduate from FM is 6 weeks of ICU. You can’t learn all of primary care, inpatient, IM, peds and obgyn in 3 years, and get the same ICU/acute care exposure as the other mentioned specialties. IMO pathways from FM to rheumatology, endocrinology, allergy etc. make much more sense than critical care.
 
There are exceptions but FM residency in general is highly unlikely to provide comparable ICU/acute care exposure to IM, anesthesiology, EM or surgery, especially given the minimum ACGME requirement to graduate from FM is 6 weeks of ICU. You can’t learn all of primary care, inpatient, IM, peds and obgyn in 3 years, and get the same ICU/acute care exposure as the other mentioned specialties. IMO pathways from FM to rheumatology, endocrinology, allergy etc. make much more sense than critical care.

agree. but why not make a 2-year or even 3-year CCM fellowship for FM? Do we really need them to repeat a residency? Meanwhile, NPs are running ICUs.
 
agree. but why not make a 2-year or even 3-year CCM fellowship for FM? Do we really need them to repeat a residency? Meanwhile, NPs are running ICUs.

Standalone CCM fellowships are already 2 years from IM and EM. I don’t have an issue with a pathway that involves additional training prior to CCM fellowship for FM. Whether that additional training is in the form of a residency or a fellowship is semantics.

Regarding the midlevel comment, I see them practicing dermatology much more independently than in the ICU. I am all for a fellowship to board eligibility pathway to dermatology from IM. Much safer experiment involving skin creams than near death folks on ventilators. I’ll be the first to sign up, let’s make it happen.
 
I don't know, it just would seem awful to go from being a family practice attending to an internal medicine resident for this reason. I would take a hard pass on this.
 
Great points, everyone, regarding the logistics of this thing!

OP, you’ve spent at least seven years in medicine, gaining significant experience and exposure before choosing family medicine (FM).

What’s prompting this major shift now, after obtaining your FM board certification? What is it about the ICU that’s drawing you in and making you reconsider your current path?

Feel free to share your thoughts here—someone else may have walked a similar path and could offer valuable insight.

I don’t know about you, but for most people, financial and family considerations play a big role when deciding to return to residency or fellowship for another 3–4 years.

I have a friend who was in his second year of internal medicine (IM) residency and considered switching to emergency medicine (EM). In the end, he found fulfillment in IM, —he left his academic hospitalist position now after 10 years of cozy practice and now working as a Designated Institutional Official (DIO) for GME at a university health system. He does full time GME paperwork and does not hold credentials at the hospital anymore. Yea, So much for some one wanting to be at the sharp end of the stick when they did residency.

People make weird choices and rationalize their behavior at the time. But you should dig deeply in to why you want to pursue this first, as interests like this fizzle out quickly during your second residency/fellowship. If I were you I would think very deeply even for months about this before comitting.
 
There is no defined pathway for this. You could simply apply in the match for a PGY-1 position -- if you do that, you should assume you will ve required to complete all three years of IM. Or, you could reach out to programs to look for an off cycle spot. As you mentioned, you could receive up to 1 year of credit for your prior training. This credit is completely at the discretion of the program. Many programs might start you as a PGY-1 to assess your skills, and then determine how much credit you deserve. Other programs might be willing to start you as a PGY-2, and then extend your training if they feel you need it. Credit is somewhat of a double edged sword -- less time in residency = less time to get ready for the fellowship match. Which might result in applying for a fellowship after your IM PGY-3. Financially you'd still be ahead since you'd be able to work as a hospitalist during that gap year.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Money isn't everything but the opportunity cost of the reduced income for 5-6 years assuming investments/compound interest would likely make the increased intensivist salary a wash long term.

of course there are many variables but here is one rough analysis:

Financial Comparison: Hospitalist vs. Retraining as Intensivist​

Starting Position​

  • 5 years as hospitalist already completed
  • Estimated accumulated savings: ~$300,000 (assuming 20% savings rate)
  • Commitment to continuing 20% savings/investment rate

Scenario 1: Retraining Path​

  • Years 1-3: Internal medicine residency ($65,000/year)
    • Annual investments: $13,000 (20%)
  • Years 4-6: Fellowship ($75,000/year)
    • Annual investments: $15,000 (20%)
  • Years 7-25: Intensivist ($375,000/year)
    • Annual investments: $75,000 (20%)

Scenario 2: Continue as Hospitalist​

  • Years 1-25: Hospitalist ($300,000/year)
    • Annual investments: $60,000 (20%)

Investment Growth Projection (25-year timeline with 7% returns)​

  • Intensivist path: ~$4.6 million
    • Existing savings grow to ~$1.6 million
    • New contributions with growth: ~$3.0 million
  • Hospitalist path: ~$5.7 million
    • Existing savings grow to ~$1.6 million
    • New contributions with growth: ~$4.1 million

Key Financial Considerations​

  • Continuing as a hospitalist is approximately $1.1 million more lucrative over 25 years
  • The opportunity cost during retraining is substantially higher when comparing to hospitalist income
  • The salary differential between hospitalist and intensivist (~$75,000) isn't large enough to overcome the 6-year income reduction
  • Compounding effects favor the consistent higher contributions of the hospitalist path
From a purely financial perspective, continuing as a hospitalist is clearly more lucrative than retraining as an intensivist. The retraining path would only make financial sense if there were strong non-financial reasons for the career change.
 
Money isn't everything but the opportunity cost of the reduced income for 5-6 years assuming investments/compound interest would likely make the increased intensivist salary a wash long term.

of course there are many variables but here is one rough analysis:

Financial Comparison: Hospitalist vs. Retraining as Intensivist​

Starting Position​

  • 5 years as hospitalist already completed
  • Estimated accumulated savings: ~$300,000 (assuming 20% savings rate)
  • Commitment to continuing 20% savings/investment rate

Scenario 1: Retraining Path​

  • Years 1-3: Internal medicine residency ($65,000/year)
    • Annual investments: $13,000 (20%)
  • Years 4-6: Fellowship ($75,000/year)
    • Annual investments: $15,000 (20%)
  • Years 7-25: Intensivist ($375,000/year)
    • Annual investments: $75,000 (20%)

Scenario 2: Continue as Hospitalist​

  • Years 1-25: Hospitalist ($300,000/year)
    • Annual investments: $60,000 (20%)

Investment Growth Projection (25-year timeline with 7% returns)​

  • Intensivist path: ~$4.6 million
    • Existing savings grow to ~$1.6 million
    • New contributions with growth: ~$3.0 million
  • Hospitalist path: ~$5.7 million
    • Existing savings grow to ~$1.6 million
    • New contributions with growth: ~$4.1 million

Key Financial Considerations​

  • Continuing as a hospitalist is approximately $1.1 million more lucrative over 25 years
  • The opportunity cost during retraining is substantially higher when comparing to hospitalist income
  • The salary differential between hospitalist and intensivist (~$75,000) isn't large enough to overcome the 6-year income reduction
  • Compounding effects favor the consistent higher contributions of the hospitalist path
From a purely financial perspective, continuing as a hospitalist is clearly more lucrative than retraining as an intensivist. The retraining path would only make financial sense if there were strong non-financial reasons for the career change.

You used $300k for hospitalist which is probably close to the MGMA mean but you used 375k for intensivist when the 2024 MGMA mean is 490k, with 75th percentile at 560k and 90th at 650k.

This is pretty standard for this sort of comparison on this forum. Usually the comparison involves a hospitalist that’s claiming to make 500k working 20+ shifts/month and simultaneously generating higher returns than Warren Buffet in the stock market. All while using the comparative 25th percentile pay for [insert specialty].
 
I ran the numbers again using 560K:

Financial Comparison: Hospitalist vs. Retraining as Intensivist (Updated Salary)​

Starting Position​

  • 5 years as hospitalist already completed
  • Estimated accumulated savings: ~$300,000 (assuming 20% savings rate)
  • Commitment to continuing 20% savings/investment rate

Scenario 1: Retraining Path​

Years 1-3: Internal medicine residency ($65,000/year)
  • Annual investments: $13,000 (20%)
  • Years 4-6: Fellowship ($75,000/year)
    • Annual investments: $15,000 (20%)
  • Years 7-25: Intensivist ($560,000/year)
    • Annual investments: $112,000 (20%)

Scenario 2: Continue as Hospitalist​

  • Years 1-25: Hospitalist ($300,000/year)
    • Annual investments: $60,000 (20%)

Investment Growth Projection (25-year timeline with 7% returns)​

  • Intensivist path: ~$6.6 million
    • Existing savings grow to ~$1.6 million
    • Years 1-6 contributions: ~$0.4 million
    • Years 7-25 contributions: ~$4.6 million
  • Hospitalist path: ~$5.4 million
    • Existing savings grow to ~$1.6 million
    • 25 years of contributions: ~$3.8 million

Timeline to Financial Benefit​

  • Break-even point occurs around year 11-12 after starting retraining
  • After 25 years, the intensivist path yields approximately $1.2 million more in wealth

While the intensivist path ultimately results in greater wealth accumulation ($6.6 million vs $5.4 million), whether this $1.2 million is significant is debatable especially in light of the additional 6 years of training needed for the intensivist. Obviously any changes to the many variables (less years worked, higher hospitalist salary, more savings etc etc) may tip the scales again to the hospitalist. Personally for me, it would still be a hard no.​

 
I would absolutely do this instead of doing a second residency. You could event get credentialed in some procedures, right? (why not, we let NPs do them).

Why don't we have a pathway for FM-CCM ? We let EM, Anes (who know nothing of long-term hospital medicine straight out of their residencies) do critical care fellowships, we don't allow FM?
Because FM is designed to be a primary care specialty with focus on outpatient medicine. They don't do enough critical care rotations or hospital work to be comparable to a residency such as IM or Anesthesia. Already having EM being able to do it is quite controversial, and at places I've seen ran by EM trained attendings, there is more reaction medicine than preventive and longevity based medicine. People that choose to do FM need to know what their choice really is instead of trying to jump into other fields. You don't see there being an easy or short pathway for IM doctors to then do a few peds and ob/gyn rotations to be dual boarded IM/FM later on to do it in their clinics
 
Because FM is designed to be a primary care specialty with focus on outpatient medicine. They don't do enough critical care rotations or hospital work to be comparable to a residency such as IM or Anesthesia. Already having EM being able to do it is quite controversial, and at places I've seen ran by EM trained attendings, there is more reaction medicine than preventive and longevity based medicine. People that choose to do FM need to know what their choice really is instead of trying to jump into other fields. You don't see there being an easy or short pathway for IM doctors to then do a few peds and ob/gyn rotations to be dual boarded IM/FM later on to do it in their clinics

I agree. I'm of the firm opinion that Critical Care should only be done by those trained in Internal Medicine or General Surgery. But if we're going to allow EM, Neuro, Anes---who in their primary training do very little long term hospital work---why not allow a pathway for FM?
 
I agree. I'm of the firm opinion that Critical Care should only be done by those trained in Internal Medicine or General Surgery. But if we're going to allow EM, Neuro, Anes---who in their primary training do very little long term hospital work---why not allow a pathway for FM?
I disagree with General surgery comment here. They have poor understanding of IM and when it comes to critical care they are not good at managing any thing other than surgery.

I believe critical care is for IM. If its surgical or Burn ICU you will need IM management skills if the patient already has complex medical history. I have seen surgery trained critical care people struggle even with a simple afib. They usually call nephrology after the patient is net positive of 20-30L and ask for CRRT when clearly the problem is iatrogenic. The problem is it happens every day.

As far as I am concerned the surgery team should be a consulting specialty rather than the primary, or they should have IM on board for managing IM side of things.
 
I agree. I'm of the firm opinion that Critical Care should only be done by those trained in Internal Medicine or General Surgery. But if we're going to allow EM, Neuro, Anes---who in their primary training do very little long term hospital work---why not allow a pathway for FM?
Neuro doesn't do regular ICU. Neuro CC fellowships are different

I think my main problem with FM having a pathway is that (1) we keep eroding the standard to be a CC doctor, and (2) FM is meant to be primary care. If we open the door to all these specialties, we'll end up in a situation where people use FM as simply a bridge to specializing and lose the necessary doctors that we need addressing primary care
 
Neuro doesn't do regular ICU. Neuro CC fellowships are different

I think my main problem with FM having a pathway is that (1) we keep eroding the standard to be a CC doctor, and (2) FM is meant to be primary care. If we open the door to all these specialties, we'll end up in a situation where people use FM as simply a bridge to specializing and lose the necessary doctors that we need addressing primary care
As an FP I agree with this. We all know, or absolutely should, what kind of field family medicine is. It is general primary Care. With extra training and effort, you can expand a little bit though typically that is only to make you a more One-Stop shop primary Care condition.

I know family doctors who deliver, including c-sections if needed, do endoscopies, or vasectomies. These are all set up as part of their regular family medicine practice. They're not going out there and trying to pass themselves off as OBGYNs or urologists or gastroenterologists.
 
I agree. I'm of the firm opinion that Critical Care should only be done by those trained in Internal Medicine or General Surgery. But if we're going to allow EM, Neuro, Anes---who in their primary training do very little long term hospital work---why not allow a pathway for FM?
Unfortunately, it is apparent that you don’t understand anesthesiology as a speciality. Critical care is far closer to the intraop management of a crumping patient than admitting grandpa for two does of IV antibiotics while awaiting culture results.

What do long-term PT/OT goals have to do with CCM? Nada in the big scheme of things.

And to counter your point - what does knowing how to technically perform an inguinal hernia repair have to do with CC?
 
Unfortunately, it is apparent that you don’t understand anesthesiology as a speciality.

You know who does understand the specialty of anesthesiology really well? CRNAs.

And if we don't allow more able-bodied physicians (IM, GS, FM, I'd even argue for an apprentice type program for rounding hospitalists---so they don't have to go back to GME) to do critical care, then that specialty will go the way of Anes (over run by mid-levels).
 
Last edited:
You know who does understand the specialty of anesthesiology really well? CRNAs.

And if we don't allow more able-bodied physicians (IM, GS, FM, I'd even argue for an apprentice type program for rounding hospitalists---so they don't have to go back to GME) to do critical care, then that specialty will go the way of Anes (over run by mid-levels).
Sure, that’s why my days are filled with saving patients from the consequences of their questionable management decisions.

But hey, keep fooling yourself with your ignorant opinion.
 
You know who does understand the specialty of anesthesiology really well? CRNAs.

And if we don't allow more able-bodied physicians (IM, GS, FM, I'd even argue for an apprentice type program for rounding hospitalists---so they don't have to go back to GME) to do critical care, then that specialty will go the way of Anes (over run by mid-levels).
There is no shortage of critical care physicians. From this year we have almost 1500 critical care MDs getting out each year. That includes (PCCM, CCM, Surgical critical care, Neph/CCM). We don't need the family medicine docs in the MICU. We have plenty already.
 
Is that a fact? Then why I'm getting ICU popouts from a PA?

Same was said of anesthesiologists circa 2005.

C'est la vie. You guys make your own bed. Let's revisit this conversation in 20 years.

Because some hospitals don’t want to pay for the staffing needed to have all ICU patients seen by a board-certified intensivist. So they add midlevels because they are cheaper.

There’s a recent document floating around from the HRSA that projects an oversupply of critical care physicians and midlevels in the coming years.

Whether there are enough intensivists and and whether hospitals want to pay for adequate staffing are two totally separate things.

None of these problems are solved by creating a pathway for additional specialties to be able to pursue critical care medicine fellowships. It will, however, make things worse by potentially diluting the quality of intensivists and also potentially create an over supply of critical care physicians and accelerate what is already projected to happen.
 
potentially diluting the quality of intensivists and also potentially create an over supply

You're already diluting down the quality of intensive care by throwing PAs/NPs into the mix, so why not 'dilute' it down with some more physicians?

Ahh . . .b/c you don't want to pay the physicians, you like the cheaper option, and you want to keep more money in the pot for those physicians already in the game.

At least you're being honest.

That's all well and good, until those mid-levels demonstrate they can do the job just as well as you---or at least, they can do the job at a level that's satisfactory to the medical industrial complex, which is far more concerned with cost savings than quality of care.

Then your specialty goes the way of the Anes-CRNA debacle, that we've had a court-side seat to over the last 20 years.

But ok, sad . . . pass the whiskey
 
You are not making any sense. The physicians in “the game” in this case, are usually hospital employed widgets themselves. If the hospital decides to save a few bucks by hiring midlevels instead of more physicians, that’s doesn’t result in any gain to the physicians working there. If anything, it’s a loss for the critical care docs as they gain more liability.

You can’t change for-profit corporate hospital practices by creating less qualified doctors and labeling them board certified specialists.

Since you directed this at me, please explain to me what I, a hospital employed intensivist, am personally gaining by a hospital choosing to hire midlevels instead of another intensivist? Also explain to me how producing more ICU docs, that are already anticipated to be in oversupply, solves the problem of hospitals choosing to hire cheaper midlevels?
 
Because some hospitals don’t want to pay for the staffing needed to have all ICU patients seen by a board-certified intensivist. So they add midlevels because they are cheaper.

There’s a recent document floating around from the HRSA that projects an oversupply of critical care physicians and midlevels in the coming years.

Whether there are enough intensivists and and whether hospitals want to pay for adequate staffing are two totally separate things.

None of these problems are solved by creating a pathway for additional specialties to be able to pursue critical care medicine fellowships. It will, however, make things worse by potentially diluting the quality of intensivists and also potentially create an over supply of critical care physicians and accelerate what is already projected to happen.

What are the projections for the oversupply/market and over what timeframe? Considering CCM myself.
 
What are the projections for the oversupply/market and over what timeframe? Considering CCM myself.

1742316705454.png

1742316758129.png

 
I think that metric has to be screwy--the # of people doing pulm and CCM is rapidly declining yet those 2 numbers are linked together.
 
I don't know, it just would seem awful to go from being a family practice attending to an internal medicine resident for this reason. I would take a hard pass on this.
I know a doc in south FL that did that.

FM attending then got into IM as a PGY2.... after that he did an ID fellowship.
 
I ran the numbers again using 560K:

Financial Comparison: Hospitalist vs. Retraining as Intensivist (Updated Salary)​

Starting Position​

  • 5 years as hospitalist already completed
  • Estimated accumulated savings: ~$300,000 (assuming 20% savings rate)
  • Commitment to continuing 20% savings/investment rate

Scenario 1: Retraining Path​

Years 1-3: Internal medicine residency ($65,000/year)
  • Annual investments: $13,000 (20%)
  • Years 4-6: Fellowship ($75,000/year)
    • Annual investments: $15,000 (20%)
  • Years 7-25: Intensivist ($560,000/year)
    • Annual investments: $112,000 (20%)

Scenario 2: Continue as Hospitalist​

  • Years 1-25: Hospitalist ($300,000/year)
    • Annual investments: $60,000 (20%)

Investment Growth Projection (25-year timeline with 7% returns)​

  • Intensivist path: ~$6.6 million
    • Existing savings grow to ~$1.6 million
    • Years 1-6 contributions: ~$0.4 million
    • Years 7-25 contributions: ~$4.6 million
  • Hospitalist path: ~$5.4 million
    • Existing savings grow to ~$1.6 million
    • 25 years of contributions: ~$3.8 million

Timeline to Financial Benefit​

  • Break-even point occurs around year 11-12 after starting retraining
  • After 25 years, the intensivist path yields approximately $1.2 million more in wealth

While the intensivist path ultimately results in greater wealth accumulation ($6.6 million vs $5.4 million), whether this $1.2 million is significant is debatable especially in light of the additional 6 years of training needed for the intensivist. Obviously any changes to the many variables (less years worked, higher hospitalist salary, more savings etc etc) may tip the scales again to the hospitalist. Personally for me, it would still be a hard no.​

But you gotta admire someone who is willing to give up 300-400k/yr to back to do a second residency/fellowship.

Maybe OP hate being a hospitalist, which is a legitimate reason for him/her to do that.

The one thing you probably did not factor in is that, OP will be working ~60/wk hrs for the next 4-5 yrs if he/she pursues that route

Most hospitalist don't work these hours unless they want to make > 450k/yr.
 
Last edited:
Neuro doesn't do regular ICU. Neuro CC fellowships are different

I think my main problem with FM having a pathway is that (1) we keep eroding the standard to be a CC doctor, and (2) FM is meant to be primary care. If we open the door to all these specialties, we'll end up in a situation where people use FM as simply a bridge to specializing and lose the necessary doctors that we need addressing primary care
I don't think it's a good argument. Because they have the pathways just like IM (also a primary care specialty), that does not mean everyone will use it.

I think FM should be allowed to do Endo/ID/AI/Rheum. I am on the fence regarding Cardio/GI/Hemonc/CCM, but I think they should be allowed to apply for these fellowships after working as hospitalist for at least 3 years.
 
Last edited:
For what it’s worth they projected a massive oversupply by 2025 as well.

View attachment 400758
I mean tying the two specialties together. Pulm seems to be in constant shortage yet they project an oversupply? Most pccm people are not fully engage in pulmonary practice if they are doing ICU at the same time but are being counted as FTE for both fields.
 
I don't think it's a good argument. Because they have the pathways just like IM (also a primary care specialty), that does not mean everyone will use it.

I think FM should be allowed to do Endo/ID/AI/Rheum. I am on the fence regarding Cardio/GI/Hemonc/CCM, but I think they should be allowed to apply for these fellowships after working as hospitalist for at least 3 years.
IM is needed as a foundation into those specialties, but yes, you proved my point. A certain number of people use IM simply to specialize, so the number of primary care people is lower by definition. Now you want to erode that in FM because some people just regret the choices they made in life. I don't agree with FM being in any of the specialties you mention, especially infectious diseases out of all of those
 
IM is needed as a foundation into those specialties, but yes, you proved my point. A certain number of people use IM simply to specialize, so the number of primary care people is lower by definition. Now you want to erode that in FM because some people just regret the choices they made in life. I don't agree with FM being in any of the specialties you mention, especially infectious diseases out of all of those
Eh, though I don't think we need it I've long thought we could handle Allergy. I mean, by the time y'all get there you haven't seen a peds patient in 3 years and the reverse for the pediatricians.
 
Just do rural open ICU work. We don’t really need MICU / PCCM people in primary care cus they don’t have the knowledge base or skill set to do and see everything from newborn to geriatrics and every organ system. However there is a clear shortage of ICU providers, hence why a lot of PA’s and NP’s run a lot of ICUs.
 
Just do rural open ICU work. We don’t really need MICU / PCCM people in primary care cus they don’t have the knowledge base or skill set to do and see everything from newborn to geriatrics and every organ system. However there is a clear shortage of ICU providers, hence why a lot of PA’s and NP’s run a lot of ICUs.
PAs and NPs are cheaper hence why a lot of PAs and NPs run a lot of ICUs
 
PAs and NPs are cheaper hence why a lot of PAs and NPs run a lot of ICUs
Critical care operates differently than fields like Anesthesiology or Emergency Medicine. In most hospital systems, reimbursement is tied to DRG-based bundled payments. That means resources aren't limitless, and insurers don't simply reimburse whatever is billed. You're working within a defined framework—every decision impacts the bottom line.

NPs, by billing standards, are reimbursed at 85% of the physician rate. On top of that, claim denial rates are statistically higher when NPs are the primary providers. This directly affects revenue capture.

Over time, experienced hospital administrators have learned that relying heavily on NPs isn't always the cost-saving strategy it appears to be. In fact, care delivery by NPs can often result in higher overall costs—more consultations, increased rates of complications, and ultimately greater resource utilization.

There’s also a legal dimension. In the event of adverse outcomes, juries may scrutinize decisions where hospitals opted to prioritize NPs over physicians purely to cut costs. In certain states, the financial liability can be catastrophic—enough to threaten the hospital's survival.

So while NPs play some role to fill some gaps, assuming they always equate to cost savings is a dangerous oversimplification. At the end of the day, the numbers don’t lie—and everything checks out financially.

If having us financially does not make any sense for the hospital we would be deemed a dying species!
 
Top