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Original conversation on this topic started in another thread (on a different subject matter)
Just moving it here to be respectful to the OP of that thread.
hesble's original queries or observations:
Okidokes.
For starters, I realize what you're saying as a pre-med.
Because I also very well remember being a pre-med and what that was like.
On the other hand,
Bear in mind, that I've graduated from medical school. I'm a resident practicing medicine at a hospital. So, I make observations and comments as someone who lived through medical school, and like many of my classmates, mentored students in the years below. Similarly, I make observations as a resident with students that I'm now expected to informally mentor & teach.
Alrighty, so to respond to your first comment:
Note that I was in no way comparing arts or science majors after they start working.
If both groups got to the end of their degree - it means everyone passed their courses through 4-6 years of study and lived to tell the tale. You end up at the same level. It doesn't matter. Everyone earned that degree. It's not an easy 4-6 years either. Many pre-meds believe that getting into medical school is the hardest part. It isn't. In some cases, getting in was the easy part.
To state the obvious, yes, students in their early years who take standardized exams are going to have different results. Someone with a biomedical background is going to have a head start compared to someone with no exposure. *this applies to anyone with a non-biomed background, a degree in say, physics is only going to give a bit of a head start compared to an arts student.
Science is not an easy thing to master, by the way. Neither is medicine. In the pre-clinical years of medical school (or first 2 years in most schools) it's like taking courses on how to speak a new language.
There are always going to be students who studied human physiology and anatomy prior to starting medical school. As in they have under grad or even graduate degrees in those areas. And if you attend a school without pre-requisites in those areas, there will also be students who've never touched those topics. This then becomes simple logic - if you examine those students on human anatomy let's say in the first few months to years of school, the students with 4-8 years of study and degrees on anatomy are going to do better than their peers who only had a few months of exposure.
Those with limited exposure catch up eventually, but it the learning curve is higher for them and they have to spend more time or work harder. The schools themselves will never cut anyone slack because they didn't take similar courses in their past life. You're all tested and measured the same.
Does it matter when you become a doctor or get to the end? No, in the end, you'll have studied all the same things in those 4-6 years. But it will be harder for you to catch up to your peers those first few months to years. It's a very humbling experience, but one that will make you stronger if you survive.
*Also, the grades of those without pre-reqs or science backgrounds, may not be as high as those with them. Like how you found in your research, the USMLE scores weren't as a great for non-science background majors. Again doesn't affect their performance after, but in the US let's say..it does impact on what residency programs they get into. If their USMLE scores aren't high enough, they probably won't get into a competitive specialty or program.
Okay, you actually always have the chance. When you finish whatever degree or studies you're completing now, you can take sciences courses. Depending on what college or university you're looking at, you don't have to re-enroll for a new degree either. There's options. Maybe not in the country you live in presently, but if you're wanting to move to a Western one to do medical school, you can take pre-requisites in that country prior to applying.
Also don't make assumptions about North America - I've had medical school classmates and tutees coming from North American arts, psychology, business and law programs too, and they were not allowed to take sciences courses either. Depending on what university they went to.
The pre-requisite courses I was referring to for say, Uni Melb, are human physiology and anatomy. They want the package. It's not like they're asking for random science courses like Ochem and calculus for no reason.
For some other Australian medical schools, your entire first year of medical school is just human physiology, biochem and anatomy with a little bit of pathology but not much (these med schools then don't have to make you take any "introductory courses" unless you want to, but they do highly recommend it - because they re-teach it to you at breakneck speed).
This means at uni melb, let's say, they presume that you already know your physiology and anatomy, they don't need to teach or re teach it. That's why instead of two pre-clinical years of just coursework, they do one. Most other schools do the two years of pre-clinical coursework.
A few Australian medical schools will simply recommend that you take those pre-reqs courses before starting rather than requiring them. It implies that students in the past without those courses have struggled.
Again, after you finish your studies in law or finance, no one is stopping you from taking sciences courses. I don't know about your country, but if you want to go a Western medical school, you can take pre-reqs at a separate college let's say in the country you intend to do medical school in. It wouldn't matter to them if it was in your home country or not.
No one is forcing you to finish your current studies either if you don't like it. It'd be a shame to drop out if you're close to the end though, on the other hand you're looking into switching to an unrelated field.
What I gather is that you would rather not waste time and just start medicine? It's your choice by the way, as it's your life. However, the options are there.
If you don't have a strong science background I would actually recommend considering the undergrad medical degrees over the grad level ones in Australia like JCU. (Undergrad med schools in Australia allow direct entry from high school, grad entry means that you have to have an undergraduate degree)
I'm dead serious. I have had classmates or students I've known who have never even taken a science course in high school. At that time for them, they weren't thinking about medical school. They were on a different trajectory. It's rare, but they exist.
Yes they took those exams. There's courses that help you take those exams. they took those.
Relative to North American schools at least, the MCAT scores required for admission to an Australian school is very low. It is not hard to score well with no science degree. **Wait, I shouldn't say not hard. It's not impossible is what I meant. Also, medical school studies are not going to be like the GAMSAT and the MCAT.
Yes it is.
I've addressed this in a previous thread.
For international students, many Australian schools have a very low bar for admission because they need money. There's schools in Australia that don't even conduct interviews or actual select their students. Or even simpler - if you meet cut off minimums (which aren't high either) you get in. It's great if you're pre-med. Look at it that way.
Down side is..you get a huge variation in strange personalities when you start medical school with people who got in without an interview. Some people are fantastic, others, you can predict will get weeded out eventually (you hope). That said. It's not a perfect system that we have. I know there's all these morals and ethics on what medical school should be and selection criteria etc. Where's the accountability (rhetorical question). But it's like any other profession to a degree. We're human. We're not infallible. We do the best we can, but we make mistakes and there's going to be variability. etc. (Personally, I think it's very amoral and unethical, not to mention unfair to local Aussies. Just thank gawd they're not selling residencies here like they are degrees)
Irony is, for those reasons I've just listed, they probably contribute to North Americans not being particularly happy with their citizens travelling to Australia/Ireland/Poland etc. for degrees. The entry level requirements and selection process is no where near as rigorous to Canada and the US.
Not all medical schools have research semester built into their degrees.
In Australia, not all medical students complete formal research. You may have to do learn how to do research and write essays like you do in undergrad, or do a small research project that takes a month. However, there is always the option for you to do research on your own time, either during studies or on summer holidays.
Those schools with formalized research built in, do several months of only research under a clinician. They don't do rotations or do courses when they conduct the research. It's built into their curriculum.
That's about all I can say to that, I would suggest that you do your own research further into different programs. like using the worldwide med website then emailing the schools listed for further information.
With the schools with 0 pre-reqs - I'd recommend you email and ask them directly. You don't have to attend a school that incorporates research into their curriculum to get research. It just means you have to take the initiative to find research on your own, which isn't hard either.
Phew. That was a marathon.
However it goes, you'll be fine
Just moving it here to be respectful to the OP of that thread.
hesble's original queries or observations:
"A research concludes that there's almost no differences between science students and other students after they start working in hospitals. However science students generally score higher in USMLE step 1&2 so maybe it's not so scary. Well, that's just another topic and the conclusion isn't necessarily accurate. Especially when people don't know who publishes it.
The reason why I brought up the "pre req" thing is that.......
If only I had the chance to take science classes........
I mean, the system in North America and other countries are quite different. In North America, law and medicine are considered professional education, or graduate education . But in most of other countries, they are undergraduate. In my country, there are some universities that only have law and medicine majors. And unfortunately, I am studying at a law school. I have taken very few science classes since admitted into university because the school don't have many except something like computer science or forensic. All of the science classes are at introductory level. I have heard that medical schools require that students should take science classes at science majors' level ( corret me if I am wrong), which is another problem. Neither do I think introductory level classes are enough for studying medicine.
Another tricky thing is that we are not allowed to take classes other than what you are required to. For example, our school do have calculus class and it could only be taken by students who major in financial law. What I mean is that you are more than welcomed to sit in the classroom, but you can't get semester hours or grades of this curriculum.
The reason why I brought up the "pre req" thing is that.......
If only I had the chance to take science classes........
I mean, the system in North America and other countries are quite different. In North America, law and medicine are considered professional education, or graduate education . But in most of other countries, they are undergraduate. In my country, there are some universities that only have law and medicine majors. And unfortunately, I am studying at a law school. I have taken very few science classes since admitted into university because the school don't have many except something like computer science or forensic. All of the science classes are at introductory level. I have heard that medical schools require that students should take science classes at science majors' level ( corret me if I am wrong), which is another problem. Neither do I think introductory level classes are enough for studying medicine.
Another tricky thing is that we are not allowed to take classes other than what you are required to. For example, our school do have calculus class and it could only be taken by students who major in financial law. What I mean is that you are more than welcomed to sit in the classroom, but you can't get semester hours or grades of this curriculum.
I am curious about the students who have never taken science classes. Haven't they taken them in high school? I took all of them at that time. Besides, all of applicants are required to take MCAT or GAMSAT, aren't they? If they never took those classes, how did they make it to med school? Maybe it's argumentative, I think self-studying is a lot harder. I am going over the science lessons on my own (Thanks to resources on Internet ), it's obvious that what I have learnt before comes back really quickly, however, I am struggling with college level chemistry, especially biochemistry. It is said that GAMSAT requires less science knowledge. Anyway, I would love to know how they became med students.
I am also wondering what is a research semester. I thought all of the med students are required to have research experience by the time they graduate. Do you mean that schools that have 0 pre reqs don't reqiure research semester?"
I am also wondering what is a research semester. I thought all of the med students are required to have research experience by the time they graduate. Do you mean that schools that have 0 pre reqs don't reqiure research semester?"
Okidokes.
For starters, I realize what you're saying as a pre-med.
Because I also very well remember being a pre-med and what that was like.
On the other hand,
Bear in mind, that I've graduated from medical school. I'm a resident practicing medicine at a hospital. So, I make observations and comments as someone who lived through medical school, and like many of my classmates, mentored students in the years below. Similarly, I make observations as a resident with students that I'm now expected to informally mentor & teach.
Alrighty, so to respond to your first comment:
"A research concludes that there's almost no differences between science students and other students after they start working in hospitals. However science students generally score higher in USMLE step 1&2 so maybe it's not so scary. Well, that's just another topic and the conclusion isn't necessarily accurate. Especially when people don't know who publishes it."
Note that I was in no way comparing arts or science majors after they start working.
If both groups got to the end of their degree - it means everyone passed their courses through 4-6 years of study and lived to tell the tale. You end up at the same level. It doesn't matter. Everyone earned that degree. It's not an easy 4-6 years either. Many pre-meds believe that getting into medical school is the hardest part. It isn't. In some cases, getting in was the easy part.
To state the obvious, yes, students in their early years who take standardized exams are going to have different results. Someone with a biomedical background is going to have a head start compared to someone with no exposure. *this applies to anyone with a non-biomed background, a degree in say, physics is only going to give a bit of a head start compared to an arts student.
Science is not an easy thing to master, by the way. Neither is medicine. In the pre-clinical years of medical school (or first 2 years in most schools) it's like taking courses on how to speak a new language.
There are always going to be students who studied human physiology and anatomy prior to starting medical school. As in they have under grad or even graduate degrees in those areas. And if you attend a school without pre-requisites in those areas, there will also be students who've never touched those topics. This then becomes simple logic - if you examine those students on human anatomy let's say in the first few months to years of school, the students with 4-8 years of study and degrees on anatomy are going to do better than their peers who only had a few months of exposure.
Those with limited exposure catch up eventually, but it the learning curve is higher for them and they have to spend more time or work harder. The schools themselves will never cut anyone slack because they didn't take similar courses in their past life. You're all tested and measured the same.
Does it matter when you become a doctor or get to the end? No, in the end, you'll have studied all the same things in those 4-6 years. But it will be harder for you to catch up to your peers those first few months to years. It's a very humbling experience, but one that will make you stronger if you survive.
*Also, the grades of those without pre-reqs or science backgrounds, may not be as high as those with them. Like how you found in your research, the USMLE scores weren't as a great for non-science background majors. Again doesn't affect their performance after, but in the US let's say..it does impact on what residency programs they get into. If their USMLE scores aren't high enough, they probably won't get into a competitive specialty or program.
"If only I had the chance to take science classes........"
Also don't make assumptions about North America - I've had medical school classmates and tutees coming from North American arts, psychology, business and law programs too, and they were not allowed to take sciences courses either. Depending on what university they went to.
"Neither do I think introductory level classes are enough for studying medicine. "
For some other Australian medical schools, your entire first year of medical school is just human physiology, biochem and anatomy with a little bit of pathology but not much (these med schools then don't have to make you take any "introductory courses" unless you want to, but they do highly recommend it - because they re-teach it to you at breakneck speed).
This means at uni melb, let's say, they presume that you already know your physiology and anatomy, they don't need to teach or re teach it. That's why instead of two pre-clinical years of just coursework, they do one. Most other schools do the two years of pre-clinical coursework.
A few Australian medical schools will simply recommend that you take those pre-reqs courses before starting rather than requiring them. It implies that students in the past without those courses have struggled.
"Another tricky thing is that we are not allowed to take classes other than what you are required to. For example, our school do have calculus class and it could only be taken by students who major in financial law. What I mean is that you are more than welcomed to sit in the classroom, but you can't get semester hours or grades of this curriculum. "
Again, after you finish your studies in law or finance, no one is stopping you from taking sciences courses. I don't know about your country, but if you want to go a Western medical school, you can take pre-reqs at a separate college let's say in the country you intend to do medical school in. It wouldn't matter to them if it was in your home country or not.
No one is forcing you to finish your current studies either if you don't like it. It'd be a shame to drop out if you're close to the end though, on the other hand you're looking into switching to an unrelated field.
What I gather is that you would rather not waste time and just start medicine? It's your choice by the way, as it's your life. However, the options are there.
If you don't have a strong science background I would actually recommend considering the undergrad medical degrees over the grad level ones in Australia like JCU. (Undergrad med schools in Australia allow direct entry from high school, grad entry means that you have to have an undergraduate degree)
"I am curious about the students who have never taken science classes. Haven't they taken them in high school? I took all of them at that time. "
I'm dead serious. I have had classmates or students I've known who have never even taken a science course in high school. At that time for them, they weren't thinking about medical school. They were on a different trajectory. It's rare, but they exist.
"Besides, all of applicants are required to take MCAT or GAMSAT, aren't they?"
Yes they took those exams. There's courses that help you take those exams. they took those.
Relative to North American schools at least, the MCAT scores required for admission to an Australian school is very low. It is not hard to score well with no science degree. **Wait, I shouldn't say not hard. It's not impossible is what I meant. Also, medical school studies are not going to be like the GAMSAT and the MCAT.
"I think self-studying is a lot harder"
" If they never took those classes, how did they make it to med school?... Anyway, I would love to know how they became med students"
For international students, many Australian schools have a very low bar for admission because they need money. There's schools in Australia that don't even conduct interviews or actual select their students. Or even simpler - if you meet cut off minimums (which aren't high either) you get in. It's great if you're pre-med. Look at it that way.
Down side is..you get a huge variation in strange personalities when you start medical school with people who got in without an interview. Some people are fantastic, others, you can predict will get weeded out eventually (you hope). That said. It's not a perfect system that we have. I know there's all these morals and ethics on what medical school should be and selection criteria etc. Where's the accountability (rhetorical question). But it's like any other profession to a degree. We're human. We're not infallible. We do the best we can, but we make mistakes and there's going to be variability. etc. (Personally, I think it's very amoral and unethical, not to mention unfair to local Aussies. Just thank gawd they're not selling residencies here like they are degrees)
Irony is, for those reasons I've just listed, they probably contribute to North Americans not being particularly happy with their citizens travelling to Australia/Ireland/Poland etc. for degrees. The entry level requirements and selection process is no where near as rigorous to Canada and the US.
"I am also wondering what is a research semester. I thought all of the med students are required to have research experience by the time they graduate. Do you mean that schools that have 0 pre reqs don't reqiure research semester?"
Not all medical schools have research semester built into their degrees.
In Australia, not all medical students complete formal research. You may have to do learn how to do research and write essays like you do in undergrad, or do a small research project that takes a month. However, there is always the option for you to do research on your own time, either during studies or on summer holidays.
Those schools with formalized research built in, do several months of only research under a clinician. They don't do rotations or do courses when they conduct the research. It's built into their curriculum.
That's about all I can say to that, I would suggest that you do your own research further into different programs. like using the worldwide med website then emailing the schools listed for further information.
With the schools with 0 pre-reqs - I'd recommend you email and ask them directly. You don't have to attend a school that incorporates research into their curriculum to get research. It just means you have to take the initiative to find research on your own, which isn't hard either.
Phew. That was a marathon.
However it goes, you'll be fine
Last edited:
