Dec 21, 2009
17
0
Status
It seems to me that the strength and organization of the osteopathic profession rests on its three core tenets:

1. The body is a unit. An integrated unit of mind, body, and spirit
2. The body possesses self-regulatory mechanisms, having the inherent capacity to defend, repair, and remodel itself.
3. Structure and function are reciprocally inter-related

This really reminds of what the Jedi Order was all about. The Jedi believed in a unifying or living force such as our bodies. They yield a powerful tool such as light saber, which I liken it to be like OMT. Yoda is the embodiment of AT Still. The osteopathic profession as a whole is like the Rebellion trying to bring peace to the world of healthcare. I see many how the osteopathic profession parallels the Jedi or the Rebellion Alliance of the Star Wars Universe.

By the way, I am only writing out of humor. :laugh:
 

csmittyB

happy fellow
10+ Year Member
7+ Year Member
Sep 19, 2008
528
5
Status
Fellow [Any Field]
It seems to me that the strength and organization of the osteopathic profession rests on its three core tenets:

1. The body is a unit. An integrated unit of mind, body, and spirit
2. The body possesses self-regulatory mechanisms, having the inherent capacity to defend, repair, and remodel itself.
3. Structure and function are reciprocally inter-related

This really reminds of what the Jedi Order was all about. The Jedi believed in a unifying or living force such as our bodies. They yield a powerful tool such as light saber, which I liken it to be like OMT. Yoda is the embodiment of AT Still. The osteopathic profession as a whole is like the Rebellion trying to bring peace to the world of healthcare. I see many how the osteopathic profession parallels the Jedi or the Rebellion Alliance of the Star Wars Universe.

By the way, I am only writing out of humor. :laugh:

Some DO's use the force. In our alternative techniques lecture, our professor showed 2 pictures with his hands over a patient and what appeared to be light emanating from his hands. He was using these pictures (along with EEG readouts) to try and show healing energy and was very quick to point out that no flash was used when the photos were taken. Sadly, this is not a joke post. Much of my interest in OMT died that day.
 

pianoman511

Member
10+ Year Member
Jun 8, 2005
515
7
Buffalo, NY
Status
Attending Physician
Some DO's use the force. In our alternative techniques lecture, our professor showed 2 pictures with his hands over a patient and what appeared to be light emanating from his hands. He was using these pictures (along with EEG readouts) to try and show healing energy and was very quick to point out that no flash was used when the photos were taken. Sadly, this is not a joke post. Much of my interest in OMT died that day.
Just wait until you learn cranial next year. Much disbelief will you have. Much b******t will you sense. That is the way of OMM (some of it at least).

Unfortunately, stuff like that really turns you off to OMM, but there are techniques that really help people. I know they harp on rib raising a lot, but I have seen DOs do it in hospitals on patients and the patients say that it really helps them a lot. Plus, I know OMM helps my back and neck out (gotta love studies with n=1 :p).
 

csmittyB

happy fellow
10+ Year Member
7+ Year Member
Sep 19, 2008
528
5
Status
Fellow [Any Field]
Just wait until you learn cranial next year. Much disbelief will you have. Much b******t will you sense. That is the way of OMM (some of it at least).

Unfortunately, stuff like that really turns you off to OMM, but there are techniques that really help people. I know they harp on rib raising a lot, but I have seen DOs do it in hospitals on patients and the patients say that it really helps them a lot. Plus, I know OMM helps my back and neck out (gotta love studies with n=1 :p).
Cranial...yeah...that will be fun. I have a feeling by then, my goal regarding OMM will be to just pass the class and boards and never deal with it again. At least until I need some extra cash, then I can do muscle energy on somebody for $65 plus the office visit fee because, conveniently, everyone has somatic dysfunction.
 

pianoman511

Member
10+ Year Member
Jun 8, 2005
515
7
Buffalo, NY
Status
Attending Physician
Cranial...yeah...that will be fun. I have a feeling by then, my goal regarding OMM will be to just pass the class and boards and never deal with it again. At least until I need some extra cash, then I can do muscle energy on somebody for $65 plus the office visit fee because, conveniently, everyone has somatic dysfunction.
Indeed, everyone has a back/neck and luckily you can even bill for soft tissue techniques *cough* massage *cough*. Your motivation to study OMM will be gone after first semester of second year because you take the NBOME shelf exam in Novemberish and after that the feeling is "why bother if I already proved my mastery of this material".

On clinical rotations, you often find that there are places which don't do any OMM at all and others where almost every patient gets an OMM consult, especially for respiratory complaints. They often have the most in terms of "secretion clearance", "normalizing sympathetics", and "improving lymphatic drainage".
 

JaggerPlate

10+ Year Member
May 28, 2007
8,458
32
Status
Medical Student
It seems to me that the strength and organization of the osteopathic profession rests on its three core tenets:

1. The body is a unit. An integrated unit of mind, body, and spirit
2. The body possesses self-regulatory mechanisms, having the inherent capacity to defend, repair, and remodel itself.
3. Structure and function are reciprocally inter-related

This really reminds of what the Jedi Order was all about. The Jedi believed in a unifying or living force such as our bodies. They yield a powerful tool such as light saber, which I liken it to be like OMT. Yoda is the embodiment of AT Still. The osteopathic profession as a whole is like the Rebellion trying to bring peace to the world of healthcare. I see many how the osteopathic profession parallels the Jedi or the Rebellion Alliance of the Star Wars Universe.

By the way, I am only writing out of humor. :laugh:
1. You should explain this to chicks at bars ... really let them know how awesome you are.

2. Why don't you sit through an OMT treatment or OMT lab before taking certain aspects of the 'philosophy' out of context and making some crass, cliche, tired, lame pop culture reference?
 
Oct 4, 2010
29
0
Status
Pre-Medical
1. You should explain this to chicks at bars ... really let them know how awesome you are.

2. Why don't you sit through an OMT treatment or OMT lab before taking certain aspects of the 'philosophy' out of context and making some crass, cliche, tired, lame pop culture reference?
I sense the Dark Side in you.
 

mmikey

Accepted!
Jan 29, 2010
237
1
Council Bluffs, IA
www.facebook.com
Status
Pre-Medical

csmittyB

happy fellow
10+ Year Member
7+ Year Member
Sep 19, 2008
528
5
Status
Fellow [Any Field]
1. You should explain this to chicks at bars ... really let them know how awesome you are.

2. Why don't you sit through an OMT treatment or OMT lab before taking certain aspects of the 'philosophy' out of context and making some crass, cliche, tired, lame pop culture reference?
Jagger, you may want to ease up on the guy. This kind of stuff is taught in my OMM course. Resembles the force to me. Maybe we learn this technique as second years.

http://www.janhendryx.net/about_osteopathy.html

scroll down


You will notice an apparent image of a bright white light near my fingers above the model's forehead.

[this] photograph [was] taken with a SLR camera and standard film with no special lighting or flash. The images of light or energy surprisingly showed up when the film was developed and were not visible during the photo shoot.

Energy emanating from the hands of healers has been measured scientifically in a number of ways.
 
Last edited:
Dec 2, 2009
69
0
Erie
Status
Medical Student
csmittyB man Dr. Hendryix is so gonna be on your ass about posting his pic, which he specifically said was copyrighted :). Btw i totally lost a good amount of faith in OMT when had to memorize "ancient" elements for an exam while studying for our anatomy shelf. I hate that class with a passion, especially the "pop" quiz which we constantly have on stuff we never learn. Thank god for UAOO or i would fail that class so badly. HVLA is cool and stretching does help, as does "soft tissue". But charging people for massages and stretching, that is complete BS.
 

csmittyB

happy fellow
10+ Year Member
7+ Year Member
Sep 19, 2008
528
5
Status
Fellow [Any Field]
csmittyB man Dr. Hendryix is so gonna be on your ass about posting his pic, which he specifically said was copyrighted :). Btw i totally lost a good amount of faith in OMT when had to memorize "ancient" elements for an exam while studying for our anatomy shelf. I hate that class with a passion, especially the "pop" quiz which we constantly have on stuff we never learn. Thank god for UAOO or i would fail that class so badly. HVLA is cool and stretching does help, as does "soft tissue". But charging people for massages and stretching, that is complete BS.
Its copyrighted? I guess I should actually listen in OMM lecture. Seeing as I don't want to risk legal wrath, the pics are on his website as my edited post now links to. Just scroll down.

I'm so fed up with that class too. I especially enjoyed the pop quiz the day after the Anatomy shelf. Did they actually think anyone would review OMM for Wed when we had anatomy practicals friday, Embryo test monday, head and neck exam monday and the shelf on Tuesday.

As far as the charging for stretching and massage. I don't have a problem with it. I just thought it was funny the Dr. Hendryx mentioned billing for muscle energy at the end of our OPP lab (not sure if he did at yours).
 
Last edited:
Jun 8, 2010
1,478
2
Status
Jagger, you may want to ease up on the guy. This kind of stuff is taught in my OMM course. Resembles the force to me. Maybe we learn this technique as second years.

http://www.janhendryx.net/about_osteopathy.html

scroll down

:eek:

I feel so bad for you two... And anyone else in that guys class... I actually like the idea of OMT and think it will certainly have it's purposes, but that dude is off his rocker... You should bring crystals to your next healing session...
 

JaggerPlate

10+ Year Member
May 28, 2007
8,458
32
Status
Medical Student
Lol, trust me guys ... I'm not going to sit here and deny the fact that OMT does attract its fair share of fanatics. However, I really don't know what that energy/pranic healing, weird, BS thing is, nor is it included in my OMT curriculum, so a. I can't really comment and b. it's probably being included because an OMT guru at your school thinks its some wonderful, spiritual, feeling that he must share.

Additionally, I'll be honest when I say that I completely understand why some people give up on OMT quickly or get turned off by the way it's taught, certain ideas, principles, etc.

However ... here is my beef with this thread:

1. It's comprised of pre-medical students making assumptions about something they have no real experience with. These are opinions forged based on bad anecdotal evidence and SDN banter. I find it ironic that some of these people feel completely comfortable calling those who judge DOs as 'not real doctors because my friend said X' fools, but feel comfortable dismissing OMT as a whole because some kewl, jaded 3rd year said it's BS.

2. I think there is a lot of very cool, valid techniques in OMT, and if it could be slimmed down, taught more efficiently, and researched more frequently (though it seems to be), it would be an awesome tool.

As it stands now, I plan on doing my best to keep up with it and try to at least stay proficient. The way I look at it, I'm (and all of you will be) paying 40k a year to learn it ... so I'm not going to dismiss it from the get go, but I'm also highly critical of the odd techniques and I don't let it detract from subjects that I feel may be more 'relevant' to my near future (i.e. classes that will help me do well on boards and high grades in certain courses that PDs will likely look at).

Just my .02 ... didn't mean to jump down anybody's throat (and I'm actually a big star wars fan myself).
 
Jun 8, 2010
1,478
2
Status
Lol, trust me guys ... I'm not going to sit here and deny the fact that OMT does attract its fair share of fanatics. However, I really don't know what that energy/pranic healing, weird, BS thing is, nor is it included in my OMT curriculum, so a. I can't really comment and b. it's probably being included because an OMT guru at your school thinks its some wonderful, spiritual, feeling that he must share.

Additionally, I'll be honest when I say that I completely understand why some people give up on OMT quickly or get turned off by the way it's taught, certain ideas, principles, etc.

However ... here is my beef with this thread:

1. It's comprised of pre-medical students making assumptions about something they have no real experience with. These are opinions forged based on bad anecdotal evidence and SDN banter. I find it ironic that some of these people feel completely comfortable calling those who judge DOs as 'not real doctors because my friend said X' fools, but feel comfortable dismissing OMT as a whole because some kewl, jaded 3rd year said it's BS.

2. I think there is a lot of very cool, valid techniques in OMT, and if it could be slimmed down, taught more efficiently, and researched more frequently (though it seems to be), it would be an awesome tool.

As it stands now, I plan on doing my best to keep up with it and try to at least stay proficient. The way I look at it, I'm (and all of you will be) paying 40k a year to learn it ... so I'm not going to dismiss it from the get go, but I'm also highly critical of the odd techniques and I don't let it detract from subjects that I feel may be more 'relevant' to my near future (i.e. classes that will help me do well on boards and high grades in certain courses that PDs will likely look at).

Just my .02 ... didn't mean to jump down anybody's throat (and I'm actually a big star wars fan myself).

:laugh: dude, why are you so anal? You can't have fun with anything...

Are you this sensitive all the time?

And if you are even slightly science minded you will think that profs comments are unbecoming of ANY medical school.
 

JaggerPlate

10+ Year Member
May 28, 2007
8,458
32
Status
Medical Student
:laugh: dude, why are you so anal? You can't have fun with anything...

Are you this sensitive all the time?

And if you are even slightly science minded you will think that profs comments are unbecoming of ANY medical school.
Yup, super uptight and never have fun with anything ... lol. Again, thank you for telling me how medical school should work. I think there are some surgeons in the surg forums right now discussing a case if you want to jump in and show 'em how it's done too.

OH ... and and fun, funny, humorous, etc, is usually presupposed by the fact that the content in question is ... well, funny, clever, witty, original, etc. Comparing things to the 'force' stopped falling into that category sometime between the late 1980s and early 1990s (I'd rather pretend the prequels didn't exist).
 
Last edited:
Jun 8, 2010
1,478
2
Status
Dude... his thread was a joke... if you don't like it or are too insecure to handle it then move on...
 
OP
P
Dec 21, 2009
17
0
Status
I apologize if this thread has offended anyone. I have a somewhat creative mind and I like to express at times. My original intent was to create a light and humorous atmosphere among the many stressed out premeds here. :(
 

JaggerPlate

10+ Year Member
May 28, 2007
8,458
32
Status
Medical Student
I apologize if this thread has offended anyone. I have a somewhat creative mind and I like to express at times. My original intent was to create a light and humorous atmosphere among the many stressed out premeds here. :(
Nah man, you're fine. I was just trying to add a different point of view, especially because I don't want pre-DOs to think all med students believe OMT is a joke and then start school with a negative opinion, nor do I want anybody to misinterpret the thread and use it to form some anti-DO mentality.

Regardless ... I've offered my counterpoints, so I won't be a drag in the thread anymore :smuggrin:

Have fun.
 

willen101383

15+ Year Member
Jul 22, 2004
2,714
46
Status
Resident [Any Field]
We definitely had "therapeutic touch" stuff mentioned at my school once. I am sorry to say the prevailing opinion is that OMM is just sort of something we are expected to know...and not too many people really enjoy or find interesting. There are a few who are really into it and go on to do these "OMM fellowships" however. I am still trying to keep an open mind about OMM...and am glad that cranial is not taught during the regular OMM curriculum....because if it was, my opinion of OMM would go right out the window.
 

kuanileqa

"clever catch-prase"
Feb 15, 2010
224
1
Status
Medical Student
Wait, what? I am going into osteopathy because I thought we were learning Chi stimulation and how to brew mean homeopathic fermented beverages.
 

Bacchus

Staff member
Administrator
10+ Year Member
Apr 28, 2007
21,024
2,325
Status
Attending Physician
We definitely had "therapeutic touch" stuff mentioned at my school once. I am sorry to say the prevailing opinion is that OMM is just sort of something we are expected to know...and not too many people really enjoy or find interesting. There are a few who are really into it and go on to do these "OMM fellowships" however. I am still trying to keep an open mind about OMM...and am glad that cranial is not taught during the regular OMM curriculum....because if it was, my opinion of OMM would go right out the window.
It is taught. 1 hr lecture plus lab.
 
Dec 2, 2009
69
0
Erie
Status
Medical Student
csmitty- yeah he did do that in our lab as well, a little joke at the end, i can dig that. I can def understand helping someone saying hey you are doing this to your back, which is causing the tension; let me show you some stuff and set up a treatment plan for you. That of course should be one charge and maybe an evaluation fee in a month. But telling a patient to come bi-weekly or even weekly and performing "soft tissue technique", muscle energy and stretching, that would be too much. Oh well i have a new thing to complain about--- you guessed it our physio department. They couldn't teach a fish how to swim.

Jagger- i totally feel your frustration with the pre-med and their antics. I just don't bother replying, we have med school to worry about now. In the end they will learn, if they actually get into a med school. Just give advice when it's a valid question. Also you and i both know that all these ROADS wanna be will not make it (it's just statistics man). Also OMT definitely has it's points when taught well. I don't have experience from other school, but we waste a lot of time learning BS material (not even OMT related) in our OMM class (which we don't have time for). I just think it is wasting our time so god damn much. Hopefully they will change most likely not.

Also from the smart ass comments from the pre-meds, stop it. Because honestly as you guys probably have guessed their is already plenty of skepticism and people who don't understand the science behind OMT shouldn't be talking about it. When you guys go through anatomy and get a glance of how structural function, does play a role in biological function maybe then you can say a few things. All in all good luck all who are trying to become great physicians.
 

Everglide

EM PGY3
10+ Year Member
Aug 7, 2006
606
11
Status
Resident [Any Field]
Lightning bone setters must learn to use the force, duh.

On a side note, OMT has a lot of cool and valid uses. When you get into school - go into it with an open mind and ignore the haters.
 

Longshanks

10+ Year Member
7+ Year Member
Apr 4, 2009
2,805
5
New York
Status
Medical Student
Well, to make this thread more useful, can a current student or someone with experience explain this to me:

Why is cranial still used and taught? Are there any empirical studies demonstrating any benefit or efficacy? Other components of OMM make more sense and have been studied, and I personally think are useful, but I still have a hard time getting my head around cranial. Norman Gevitz's book made it sound like cranial wasn't an original component of OMM but a small fanatical minority, that most other osteopathic physicians disliked and disagreed with, pushed forth cranial during a time when the profession was trying to increase its distinctiveness while the California school and the "modernists" were pushing more evidence based medicine, and some how cranial ended up sticking and was voted for favorably at an AOA conference when even at the time there were serious fundamental scientific issues with cranial. So how has it survived to this day without more thorough questioning? Thanks.
 
Jun 8, 2010
1,478
2
Status
Well, to make this thread more useful, can a current student or someone with experience explain this to me:

Why is cranial still used and taught? Are there any empirical studies demonstrating any benefit or efficacy? Other components of OMM make more sense and have been studied, and I personally think are useful, but I still have a hard time getting my head around cranial. Norman Gevitz's book made it sound like cranial wasn't an original component of OMM but a small fanatical minority, that most other osteopathic physicians disliked and disagreed with, pushed forth cranial during a time when the profession was trying to increase its distinctiveness while the California school and the "modernists" were pushing more evidence based medicine, and some how cranial ended up sticking and was voted for favorably at an AOA conference when even at the time there were serious fundamental scientific issues with cranial. So how has it survived to this day without more thorough questioning? Thanks.

I don't know the specifics on this, but there were a few OMT fellows at DMU that were saying you received more cranial training there than other schools, which they thought was a good thing. So, there are clearly people who are into cranial and believe that it works. This could be a result of the level of training in that specific area. Better training usually results in a better understand, which then leads to an increased incorporation of the techniques and improved results.

I think OMT is plagued by the fact that it is difficult to conduct double blind studies, and really assess efficacy of specific somatic lesions being treated vs. placebo/massage, but I have seen a number of studies that incorporate EMG and palpitation, that demonstrate physiological abnormalities/differences in regions of somatic lesions determined by OMT. I don't recall any cranial studies though...

As an aside, in response to the shenanigans and pointed responses in this thread, I should state that I am very interested in OMT and feel it will offer patients a viable alternative to standard treatments, that can reduce durations of med management for chronic pain, among other applications. (I did state this above, but still feel a number of responses were directed towards me... :rolleyes:) I also feel the additional emphasis on anatomy is paramount to a strong understanding of the physical system that is a completely integrated unit. If you start to throw things out of kilter, you will increase the demands on the system and potentially tax the system to a point that makes it more susceptible to other potential complications.

However, I stand by my statement that think instructors discussing radiating energy from their hands that has been captured on film should not be taking place in a medical school curriculum. This is the voodoo type of stigma DO's spent so long trying to steer clear of that led people to believe the cultist label throughout the better part of the 20th century.
 

JaggerPlate

10+ Year Member
May 28, 2007
8,458
32
Status
Medical Student
Well, to make this thread more useful, can a current student or someone with experience explain this to me:

Why is cranial still used and taught? Are there any empirical studies demonstrating any benefit or efficacy? Other components of OMM make more sense and have been studied, and I personally think are useful, but I still have a hard time getting my head around cranial. Norman Gevitz's book made it sound like cranial wasn't an original component of OMM but a small fanatical minority, that most other osteopathic physicians disliked and disagreed with, pushed forth cranial during a time when the profession was trying to increase its distinctiveness while the California school and the "modernists" were pushing more evidence based medicine, and some how cranial ended up sticking and was voted for favorably at an AOA conference when even at the time there were serious fundamental scientific issues with cranial. So how has it survived to this day without more thorough questioning? Thanks.
I think Gevitz hit the nail on the head - it's a small minority who, unfortunately, are pretty powerful and vocal within the DO community. The overwhelming majority of students, new physicians, etc, I speak to (even the ones who like OMM for the most part) want nothing to do with it. I have a few thoughts about it:

1. It's a misnomer, and I do think there are instances where osteopathic manipulation can be applied to the head and neck (I know a few people who have received mainstream OMM treatments for jaw issues with good success and it obviously has a place for cervical manipulation and influencing the muscles that attach to the occ region), but after spending a quarter in OTM, I have a hard time believing that the sutures of the skull can be manipulated or that a primary rhythmic pulse can be palpated (if it does exist). Frankly, this is the issue everyone has with OMM, and I tend to agree.

2. I do believe it will be removed or moved to an 'elective' only portion of the curriculum overtime. I even seem to remember a few years back some professors at UNECOM wrote an editorial explaining how it can't be backed by research, it's not scientifically sound, so it probably should be dropped. Combine this with the attitude of the docs that will become the 'future' of the AOA, and you can see how it could definitely be altered over time.

3. It's something a lot of people use to judge OMT as a whole, and I think this really hurts its visibility, integration into mainstream care, etc, etc.

I don't know the specifics on this, but there were a few OMT fellows at DMU that were saying you received more cranial training there than other schools, which they thought was a good thing. So, there are clearly people who are into cranial and believe that it works. This could be a result of the level of training in that specific area. Better training usually results in a better understand, which then leads to an increased incorporation of the techniques and improved results.

I think OMT is plagued by the fact that it is difficult to conduct double blind studies, and really assess efficacy of specific somatic lesions being treated vs. placebo/massage, but I have seen a number of studies that incorporate EMG and palpitation, that demonstrate physiological abnormalities/differences in regions of somatic lesions determined by OMT. I don't recall any cranial studies though...

As an aside, in response to the shenanigans and pointed responses in this thread, I should state that I am very interested in OMT and feel it will offer patients a viable alternative to standard treatments, that can reduce durations of med management for chronic pain, among other applications. (I did state this above, but still feel a number of responses were directed towards me... :rolleyes:) I also feel the additional emphasis on anatomy is paramount to a strong understanding of the physical system that is a completely integrated unit. If you start to throw things out of kilter, you will increase the demands on the system and potentially tax the system to a point that makes it more susceptible to other potential complications.

However, I stand by my statement that think instructors discussing radiating energy from their hands that has been captured on film should not be taking place in a medical school curriculum. This is the voodoo type of stigma DO's spent so long trying to steer clear of that led people to believe the cultist label throughout the better part of the 20th century.
I agree with some of the issues regarding OMT research. Not only is it essentially impossible to set up a double blind study, but the inter reliability between practitioners is far too subjective. Additionally, many DO schools don't have much research funding, so this only hurts the cause and tends to make people fall back on the 'I know a guy who was cured by x OMT treatment, ergo it works,' mentality, which we all know is bad science.

Altogether, in my very novice opinion, there are a lot of cool, good, valid, etc, things within OMT. However, I do think the entire treatment modality could use some streamlining, standardization, and dismissal of techniques that are practiced out of respect or traditional opposed to proven science. Frankly, I'd love to be part of the solution in this situation!