Fourth year student about to be dismissed, HELP!!

[Game Changer 99]

Game changers can be a good thing if your playoff team is losing in the fourth quarter this weekend, probably a bad thing if you are a fourth year medical student coasting to graduation when you get some unexpected news.

I'm a fourth year IMG MD student from a European country applying to radiology. I received over 35 interview invitations at interviewed at 25 programs. Good news so far. That was until events that unfolded over the last few days. I received an email from my school stating that I misled an attending about the dates I completed an outpatient family medicine rotation.

The following is a brief summary. I was set up to do a rural family medicine rotation during the late summer with a doctor, the first week of this rotation he was scheduled for vacation and told me to take the week off. I did offer to work with one of the other physicians or mid-levels in the clinic during the week, but he insisted I take the vacation because fourth year is supposed to be easy. I did as he said, took the week off and reported at 7:15 AM the next Monday. I went into his office and noticed it look much different than the week before, but didn't think to much about it for a few minutes. About 10 minutes later the MA informs me Dr. X is no longer working here and you will be with Dr. Y. No problem, worked with Dr. Y for three weeks and he completed my evaluation. I dated the evaluation to include the first week in which I was told to vacation by Dr. X. Dr. Y signed the evaluation with the dates I listed and I thought that was the end of that rotation. Here is where the email from my school comes in. The attending emailed my school to get a copy of my evaluation so he could use it for CME credit and this occurred several months after the rotation was over. At that time, he noticed the four weeks I wrote on the evaluation included the week of vacation in which Dr. X told me to take. Dr. Y contacted my school to report the discrepancy.

Now, my school is accusing me of being intentionally dishonest. I spoke with the dean yesterday and was informed by her that being dismissed from medical school was a very real possibility despite me explaining the situation and offering to make up the week or do the whole family medicine rotation again with my vacation weeks I haven't used. At this point, I'm baffled beyond belief. At first, I never in my wildest dreams would have thought this would escalate to this point. Initially, I expected my explanation to suffice. It seems like my school is out to get me.

My class rank is 9 and I have no previous professional misconduct or academic dishonesty incidences.

Do I need an attorney? I know most people on here say it is pointless, but I can't possibly imagine being dismissed for this. A few days ago I was approaching radiology residency and now I'm just hoping to graduate. This is unbelievable.

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[Lawpy]

Sorry about your woes but it’s hard to give advice if we only know your side of the story. As for your next steps, @aProgDirector could give some insights.

 

[FrkyBgStok]

Agree with Lawper. If what you are saying is completely true, than the only explanation to this misunderstanding is that the school has a specific gripe with you personally for some reason and are being malicious. But I highly doubt that is the case.

either that or you are paranoid and completely misinterpreting what the dean actually said.

 

[Game Changer 99]

Agree with Lawper. If what you are saying is completely true, than the only explanation to this misunderstanding is that the school has a specific gripe with you personally for some reason and are being malicious. But I highly doubt that is the case.

either that or you are paranoid and completely misinterpreting what the dean actually said.

The dean stated this is a "very serious matter" and referenced this is a type of academic dishonesty. Additionally, it was evident by her tone that they were bringing the hammer down on me. There isn't another side to the story that I'm aware of. Clearly, there is a gripe with me. Are there any legal options for students when a school is clearly being malicious? The school has took over $200,000 for tuition including this, my last semester, and now they want to kick me out.

 

[DokterMom]

"I'm a fourth year IMG MD student from a European country"

Are you in a US medical school in the US? Or an international school in Europe. American attitudes are very different when it comes to attorneys and lawsuits and European schools may have very different policies and practices when it comes to this type of thing.

 

[Game Changer 99]

"I'm a fourth year IMG MD student from a European country".

Are you in a US medical school in the US? Or an international school in Europe. American attitudes are very different when it comes to attorneys and lawsuits and European schools may have very different policies and practices when it comes to this type of thing.

Attend a US MD school, born and raised in Europe

 

[Game Changer 99]

Forgot to mention in initial post I have a meeting tomorrow (Friday afternoon) with the dean and advancement committee. No decision will be made at this meeting, but it will be my opportunity to present "my case" (quoted from dean) before the board decides my fate. My impression is that this meeting is only a formality to my impending dismissal. This thing went from 0 to 60 in about two seconds. I never had the chance to explain anything to the dean. Is it normal for schools to act so hastily?

I have my last radiology interview on Monday, do I mention this to the PD? Do I need to contact the programs I have already interviewed at?

 

[ninjaman22]

Is it possible to contact the attending X? Maybe he can vouch for you and say he did give you that week off.

 

[DBV]

If you are dismissed that's some bs. I've passed entire rotations that I missed every day during 4th year. I mean i was physically present but that's besides the point.

At most they should make you repeat the rotation. Maybe give your story and say you'd be more than willing to repeat it in another block you have off?

 

[Game Changer 99]

Is it possible to contact the attending X? Maybe he can vouch for you and say he did give you that week off.

It may be possible. I only met this individual once and have not been able to get his contact information from his previous employer. The lady in HR told me she will check, but doesn't belief she can give me his information. There really hasn't been enough time to do this anyway. Presenting "my case" will be difficult tomorrow since I just found out about this and haven't had the chance to assemble important facts like this. The dean and this committee don't seem very interested in facts.

 

[Game Changer 99]

If you are dismissed that's some bs. I've passed entire rotations that I missed every day during 4th year. I mean i was physically present but that's besides the point.

At most they should make you repeat the rotation. Maybe give your story and say you'd be more than willing to repeat it in another block you have off?

I shouldn't have to do anything, but at this point I'll settle for repeating the whole rotation and doing an additional rotation if it makes the ignorant administrators happy.

 

[Lnsean]

i feel there is a lot more to this story then what you are telling. why is it such a problem to get Dr. X to vouch for you? One simple phone call would do. You're telling me he worked as an attending and no one has his contacts and this was recent? Oh come on. A US MD school jumping the gun and going straight to dismissal...on a 4th year student that they have invested a lot of time in? All this doesn't add up. I guess lawyer up then...from one man to another. From the looks of it, whatever it is that you did...they seem to have the evidence to dismiss you.

 

[ortnakas]

By fourth year schools are pretty invested in you; my guess is you'll fail the rotation and might have to repeat it (which could make graduating in time to start residency problematic), but unless there's a missing part of the story, I doubt they'll actually dismiss you.

Any chance you can reach "Dr. X" and get him or her to vouch that you were told not to come in?

Edit to add: just saw you did try reaching Dr. X. Their HR policy likely does prevent them from sharing a former employee's contact info, but nothing's stopping them from passing yours along to them, if you ask/beg nicely. You could also try reaching them through professional societies or LinkedIn (or good-old Google stalk them for their new work place... being extraordinarily polite and apologetic if this works).

 

[Game Changer 99]

i feel there is a lot more to this story then what you are telling. why is it such a problem to get Dr. X to vouch for you? One simple phone call would do. You're telling me he worked as an attending and no one has his contacts and this was recent? Oh come on. A US MD school jumping the gun and going straight to dismissal...on a 4th year student that they have invested a lot of time in? All this doesn't add up. I guess lawyer up then...from one man to another. From the looks of it, whatever it is that you did...they seem to have the evidence to dismiss you.

It wouldn't be so confusing if there was more to the story. This attending was at rural outpatient clinic not affiliated with my school. My school probably has his contact information. As of this moment I do not. If I can contact him I feel things will end up being resolved, but at the same time my school has likely already contacted him, you think? I mean, a school wouldn't arrange for you to work with someone unless they had the attendings contact information. My only thought may be the contact information for him was through the clinic.

 

[Game Changer 99]

By fourth year schools are pretty invested in you; my guess is you'll fail the rotation and might have to repeat it (which could make graduating in time to start residency problematic), but unless there's a missing part of the story, I doubt they'll actually dismiss you.

Any chance you can reach "Dr. X" and get him or her to vouch that you were told not to come in?

I hope you are right, but it sure isn't a very relaxing way to start 2018. I just can't understand why my school would want to put me through this. It really goes to show the arrogance and unprofessional behavior by administrators, the same ones who preach the opposite.

 

[Stagg737]

Is it possible to contact the attending X? Maybe he can vouch for you and say he did give you that week off.

I think this is the best bet, but my guess is the school will say that you were supposed to tell them yourself that you wouldn't be in clinic during the first week so they could find something else for you to do. School admins seem to have some very bizarre policies when it comes to rotations, and for some reason they like to make examples of people for stupid mistakes.

 

[Newyawk]

Game changers can be a good thing if your playoff team is losing in the fourth quarter this weekend, probably a bad thing if you are a fourth year medical student coasting to graduation when you get some unexpected news.

I'm a fourth year IMG MD student from a European country applying to radiology. I received over 35 interview invitations at interviewed at 25 programs. Good news so far. That was until events that unfolded over the last few days. I received an email from my school stating that I misled an attending about the dates I completed an outpatient family medicine rotation.

The following is a brief summary. I was set up to do a rural family medicine rotation during the late summer with a doctor, the first week of this rotation he was scheduled for vacation and told me to take the week off. I did offer to work with one of the other physicians or mid-levels in the clinic during the week, but he insisted I take the vacation because fourth year is supposed to be easy. I did as he said, took the week off and reported at 7:15 AM the next Monday. I went into his office and noticed it look much different than the week before, but didn't think to much about it for a few minutes. About 10 minutes later the MA informs me Dr. X is no longer working here and you will be with Dr. Y. No problem, worked with Dr. Y for three weeks and he completed my evaluation. I dated the evaluation to include the first week in which I was told to vacation by Dr. X. Dr. Y signed the evaluation with the dates I listed and I thought that was the end of that rotation. Here is where the email from my school comes in. The attending emailed my school to get a copy of my evaluation so he could use it for CME credit and this occurred several months after the rotation was over. At that time, he noticed the four weeks I wrote on the evaluation included the week of vacation in which Dr. X told me to take. Dr. Y contacted my school to report the discrepancy.

Now, my school is accusing me of being intentionally dishonest. I spoke with the dean yesterday and was informed by her that being dismissed from medical school was a very real possibility despite me explaining the situation and offering to make up the week or do the whole family medicine rotation again with my vacation weeks I haven't used. At this point, I'm baffled beyond belief. At first, I never in my wildest dreams would have thought this would escalate to this point. Initially, I expected my explanation to suffice. It seems like my school is out to get me.

My class rank is 9 and I have no previous professional misconduct or academic dishonesty incidences.

Do I need an attorney? I know most people on here say it is pointless, but I can't possibly imagine being dismissed for this. A few days ago I was approaching radiology residency and now I'm just hoping to graduate. This is unbelievable.

Im not gonna accuse you of leaving parts of the story out. You're either trolling or, more likely (I actually believe you), you are telling the truth as you see it. I personally don't think they're going to dismiss you. Not because I have any experience with this or that I know your school/deans, but because you had to have assembled a group of intensely cruel human beings to dismiss somebody in their 4th year with no history of unethical behavior over such a minor transgression. I don't believe it is possible in the academic medical world to have that many cruel people sitting in one room.

 

[hello1234!]

You messed up.

You took a week off without reporting it to your clerkship director. You then backdated an evaluation form from Dr. Y.

Would you have done this on your surgery rotation?

I don’t think u deserve to be expelled nor do I think u should have to repeat the rotation. I just think u messed up here.

 

[DokterMom]

I hope you are right, but it sure isn't a very relaxing way to start 2018. I just can't understand why my school would want to put me through this. It really goes to show the arrogance and unprofessional behavior by administrators, the same ones who preach the opposite.

Not the attitude you want to bring into your hearing...
Sorry, but I think you were wrong too. Not throw you out wrong, but you should have known better wrong.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

When you go into this hearing, it's very important that you understand their viewpoint of the situation.

The main issue is this: Claiming credit for time you were actually away for is academic dishonesty. The preceptor who told you to "take the week off" doesn't have the ability to give you a week off, and you should have known better. In the same way that if a course leader tells you that you don't have to show up for class and they will give you an "A". Or if a lab delivers bags of cash to you for referring patients to them (there was a news story about this, can't find it now). All of these are unacceptable, even if the other person tells you that it's totally fine. And you should have known that. You should have contacted your school and asked them what to do.

Whether dismissing you, vs making you repeat the rotation are the appropriate response is up to them. In all cases, they should alert all programs to which you have applied about the issue.

 

[emergentmd]

When you go into this hearing, it's very important that you understand their viewpoint of the situation.

The main issue is this: Claiming credit for time you were actually away for is academic dishonesty. The preceptor who told you to "take the week off" doesn't have the ability to give you a week off, and you should have known better. In the same way that if a course leader tells you that you don't have to show up for class and they will give you an "A". Or if a lab delivers bags of cash to you for referring patients to them (there was a news story about this, can't find it now). All of these are unacceptable, even if the other person tells you that it's totally fine. And you should have known that. You should have contacted your school and asked them what to do.

Whether dismissing you, vs making you repeat the rotation are the appropriate response is up to them. In all cases, they should alert all programs to which you have applied about the issue.

If OPs story is correct and unbiased, he is being railroaded. Plain and simple. There was no dishonesty. There was no intent to break the rules. Comparing this to a lab handing you bags of $$$ for referrals is completely off base and not comparable.

I had students rotate with me and I told them to leave 2 hrs early when the ER is not busy. Should they have called their program director each time they left early?

I have scribes work with me and I tell them to leave early, do they have to tell their boss that they didn't do much work the last 2 hrs?

Give me a break. If my attending ever told me to go home early, I am halfway out the door while being thankful. If my attending told me as a 4th yr student to take a few dys or week off, I would think very little of it.

I am sure 90% of students could look back on their 4 yrs and find instances where they could be brought up for dismissal.

I remember as a med student when asked to go get a chart or drop off labs and I took longer than I should have. Dropped by the cafeteria to grab a bite, slipped off to make a phone call. I guess I was being dishonest???

 

[Stagg737]

If OPs story is correct and unbiased, he is being railroaded. Plain and simple. There was no dishonesty. There was no intent to break the rules. Comparing this to a lab handing you bags of $$$ for referrals is completely off base and not comparable.

I had students rotate with me and I told them to leave 2 hrs early when the ER is not busy. Should they have called their program director each time they left early?

I have scribes work with me and I tell them to leave early, do they have to tell their boss that they didn't do much work the last 2 hrs?

Give me a break. If my attending ever told me to go home early, I am halfway out the door while being thankful. If my attending told me as a 4th yr student to take a few dys or week off, I would think very little of it.

I am sure 90% of students could look back on their 4 yrs and find instances where they could be brought up for dismissal.

I remember as a med student when asked to go get a chart or drop off labs and I took longer than I should have. Dropped by the cafeteria to grab a bite, slipped off to make a phone call. I guess I was being dishonest???

Technically speaking if it's a school policy it would be "academic dishonesty" though, and I'd guess most schools have this policy in place. Mine does. I agree that it's completely ridiculous and a joke that it exists, OP is likely going to have to suck it up, say they made a mistake, promise not to do it again, and hope they aren't out for blood too much.

 

[NeurologyHopeful2018]

I dont get how OP is being dishonest.

The evaluation is for his performance over the entire 4 weeks rotation - maybe Dr. Y filled out with some feedback with Dr. X before he took off.

 

[CaptainWEMT]

If you have any emails from Dr. X that you could use to prove that he gave you the week off, that might be useful if you cannot get in contact with Dr. X.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

If OPs story is correct and unbiased, he is being railroaded. Plain and simple. There was no dishonesty. There was no intent to break the rules. Comparing this to a lab handing you bags of $$$ for referrals is completely off base and not comparable.

I had students rotate with me and I told them to leave 2 hrs early when the ER is not busy. Should they have called their program director each time they left early?

I have scribes work with me and I tell them to leave early, do they have to tell their boss that they didn't do much work the last 2 hrs?

Give me a break. If my attending ever told me to go home early, I am halfway out the door while being thankful. If my attending told me as a 4th yr student to take a few dys or week off, I would think very little of it.

I am sure 90% of students could look back on their 4 yrs and find instances where they could be brought up for dismissal.

I remember as a med student when asked to go get a chart or drop off labs and I took longer than I should have. Dropped by the cafeteria to grab a bite, slipped off to make a phone call. I guess I was being dishonest???

Then we agree to disagree.

Allowing someone to leave early if the ED is empty is fine.

Taking an entire week off is not.

This is one of the most common reasons I end up terminating residents. They are assigned to clinic, but notice that their schedule is missing. So they just stay home, rather than bringing the issue to someone's attention.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

If OPs story is correct and unbiased, he is being railroaded. Plain and simple. There was no dishonesty. There was no intent to break the rules. Comparing this to a lab handing you bags of $$$ for referrals is completely off base and not comparable.

He should have contacted the school when he was told to just take a week off. He also should have talked to Dr. Y before including a week that he didn’t actually interact with Dr. Y.

Was he intentionally dishonest? Doesn’t seem that way based on this info (but this is only his side), but ignorance of breaking the rules is not an excuse when there were multiple things you could and should have done. Hopefully they don’t dismiss him, since it appears he wasn’t intentionally doing it, but he still did something wrong.

I had students rotate with me and I told them to leave 2 hrs early when the ER is not busy. Should they have called their program director each time they left early?

I have scribes work with me and I tell them to leave early, do they have to tell their boss that they didn't do much work the last 2 hrs?

Completely different, and I’m a bit concerned if you actually think that dismissing a student or employee near the end of the day, even if it is early, is anything like telling a student or employee to take a week off. You think the scribe should just take the week off if you tell him to take it easy? Or should he check with his boss? Come on now.

Give me a break. If my attending ever told me to go home early, I am halfway out the door while being thankful. If my attending told me as a 4th yr student to take a few dys or week off, I would think very little of it.

Those two aren’t the same, and if you don’t see an issue with just taking a week off because some attending told you he didn’t need you, that is also concerning.

I am sure 90% of students could look back on their 4 yrs and find instances where they could be brought up for dismissal.

I remember as a med student when asked to go get a chart or drop off labs and I took longer than I should have. Dropped by the cafeteria to grab a bite, slipped off to make a phone call. I guess I was being dishonest???

You sound lazy.

 

[emergentmd]

Then we agree to disagree.

Allowing someone to leave early if the ED is empty is fine.

Taking an entire week off is not.

This is one of the most common reasons I end up terminating residents. They are assigned to clinic, but notice that their schedule is missing. So they just stay home, rather than bringing the issue to someone's attention.

I get where you are coming from. And I guess if someone told me to take a week off, I might have sent an email to my program director. If they told me to take the day off b/c clinic was closed or whatever, I would think nothing off this and definitely not sent an email.

But if this is the only thing he did wrong, the worse he should have gotten was a, "you should have emailed the program director, don't do it again and have a good day/graduation"

But to be brought for dismissal? I have known of MUCH MUCH worse that didn't get near dismissal.


BTW, OP if I were you, I go in HUMBLE, Apologetic, and even close to tears to avoid dismissal. Take whatever punishment they give sans dismissal. Repeat the year if you have to.

 

[emergentmd]

He should have contacted the school when he was told to just take a week off. He also should have talked to Dr. Y before including a week that he didn’t actually interact with Dr. Y.

Was he intentionally dishonest? Doesn’t seem that way based on this info (but this is only his side), but ignorance of breaking the rules is not an excuse when there were multiple things you could and should have done. Hopefully they don’t dismiss him, since it appears he wasn’t intentionally doing it, but he still did something wrong.



Completely different, and I’m a bit concerned if you actually think that dismissing a student or employee near the end of the day, even if it is early, is anything like telling a student or employee to take a week off. You think the scribe should just take the week off if you tell him to take it easy? Or should he check with his boss? Come on now.



Those two aren’t the same, and if you don’t see an issue with just taking a week off because some attending told you he didn’t need you, that is also concerning.



You sound lazy.

My point is not that they are equivalent. My point is where does this end? If it was one day would that change your opinion? How many days is too much?

Dismissal is a HUGE deal with the student getting the benefit of the doubt. If it was due to a mistake, then this does not warrant dismissal.

As a student, we looked up to the attending and essentially shut up and do what they say. If they told me to take a week off, I would be just as happy and thought it was my lucky day. I bet a good percent of students would do the same.

 

[DokterMom]

My point is not that they are equivalent. My point is where does this end? If it was one day would that change your opinion? How many days is too much?

Dismissal is a HUGE deal with the student getting the benefit of the doubt. If it was due to a mistake, then this does not warrant dismissal.

As a student, we looked up to the attending and essentially shut up and do what they say. If they told me to take a week off, I would be just as happy and thought it was my lucky day. I bet a good percent of students would do the same.

You are correct about there being somewhat of a slippery slope. How much is too much? That's a matter of judgement, and in this case, the OP's judgement was, in my opinion and in the opinion of his dean, faulty to the point of being somewhat dishonest. It's not a black and white issue, but rather a grey one.

You may find some 'spin room' if you look at the exact wording of the form's question about dates. If it asked for "rotation" dates, then technically, 4 weeks was the right answer. If it asked for dates "worked", then clearly, it was not. Importantly though - this would not be my first line of defense. Humble first - spin later, if needed.

 

[Goro]

Game changers can be a good thing if your playoff team is losing in the fourth quarter this weekend, probably a bad thing if you are a fourth year medical student coasting to graduation when you get some unexpected news.

I'm a fourth year IMG MD student from a European country applying to radiology. I received over 35 interview invitations at interviewed at 25 programs. Good news so far. That was until events that unfolded over the last few days. I received an email from my school stating that I misled an attending about the dates I completed an outpatient family medicine rotation.

The following is a brief summary. I was set up to do a rural family medicine rotation during the late summer with a doctor, the first week of this rotation he was scheduled for vacation and told me to take the week off. I did offer to work with one of the other physicians or mid-levels in the clinic during the week, but he insisted I take the vacation because fourth year is supposed to be easy. I did as he said, took the week off and reported at 7:15 AM the next Monday. I went into his office and noticed it look much different than the week before, but didn't think to much about it for a few minutes. About 10 minutes later the MA informs me Dr. X is no longer working here and you will be with Dr. Y. No problem, worked with Dr. Y for three weeks and he completed my evaluation. I dated the evaluation to include the first week in which I was told to vacation by Dr. X. Dr. Y signed the evaluation with the dates I listed and I thought that was the end of that rotation. Here is where the email from my school comes in. The attending emailed my school to get a copy of my evaluation so he could use it for CME credit and this occurred several months after the rotation was over. At that time, he noticed the four weeks I wrote on the evaluation included the week of vacation in which Dr. X told me to take. Dr. Y contacted my school to report the discrepancy.

Now, my school is accusing me of being intentionally dishonest. I spoke with the dean yesterday and was informed by her that being dismissed from medical school was a very real possibility despite me explaining the situation and offering to make up the week or do the whole family medicine rotation again with my vacation weeks I haven't used. At this point, I'm baffled beyond belief. At first, I never in my wildest dreams would have thought this would escalate to this point. Initially, I expected my explanation to suffice. It seems like my school is out to get me.

My class rank is 9 and I have no previous professional misconduct or academic dishonesty incidences.

Do I need an attorney? I know most people on here say it is pointless, but I can't possibly imagine being dismissed for this. A few days ago I was approaching radiology residency and now I'm just hoping to graduate. This is unbelievable.

My gut reaction is that the Dean is being 100% honest, but in the same way that a rare side effect from a drug is also a "real possibility".

Meaning, one of the sanctions for academic dishonesty is dismissal, but what is the likelihood that it will be the sanction????? I suspect that the Dean is trying to get you to realize that you screwed up and is applying some tough love to smack you upside the head so you don't do anything like this in the future. In NYC we call that a dope slap.

 

[NYCdude]

If OPs story is correct and unbiased, he is being railroaded. Plain and simple. There was no dishonesty. There was no intent to break the rules. Comparing this to a lab handing you bags of $$$ for referrals is completely off base and not comparable.

I had students rotate with me and I told them to leave 2 hrs early when the ER is not busy. Should they have called their program director each time they left early?

I have scribes work with me and I tell them to leave early, do they have to tell their boss that they didn't do much work the last 2 hrs?

Give me a break. If my attending ever told me to go home early, I am halfway out the door while being thankful. If my attending told me as a 4th yr student to take a few dys or week off, I would think very little of it.

I am sure 90% of students could look back on their 4 yrs and find instances where they could be brought up for dismissal.

I remember as a med student when asked to go get a chart or drop off labs and I took longer than I should have. Dropped by the cafeteria to grab a bite, slipped off to make a phone call. I guess I was being dishonest???

So residents get a salary and are actual doctors who take care of patients. There's an actual loss somewhere if they don't show up/take a day off.

No one bats an eye if a 4th year medical student didn't show up to slow down the radiologists as they're trying to get through billions of reads a day during his/her elective rotation. Lol surely you can spot the difference.

 

[evilbooyaa]

If an attending told me to take the week off because he was going on vacation, I would take the week off and return when I was supposed to. The issue here is that the attending that OP's school set him up with was fired or quit in that week time frame.

This is an issue for the SCHOOL. The student was following the attending's instructions who he was scheduled to be on rotation with. Unless the student found himself this rotation and petitioned the school to let him be with this attending, I don't see where the student is at fault here.

When I was a MS4 and was on a clinic rotation, if the one attending I was with was out for the week, I didn't come in for the week. The only difference here is that when I came back in week 2, it was the same attending so there was an understanding.

OP should be humble because it's his/her career, but people saying he should've run it up the chain to his clerkship director are being unreasonable.

This is one of the most common reasons I end up terminating residents. They are assigned to clinic, but notice that their schedule is missing. So they just stay home, rather than bringing the issue to someone's attention.

I also think that if a resident is NOT scheduled patients in clinic, it is NOT their responsibility to go seek out additional work to do when they can spend that time studying or working on research projects. I have days where I don't have patients scheduled in clinic, although my field is different since that is because my attending doesn't have patients scheduled. As a residency program, you need to not dump more responsibility on residents. I think it is completely unreasonable to expect residents to seek out more work to do when other people have dropped the ball with patient scheduling.

 

[DokterMom]

There seems to be a fairly widespread misconception here --

The academic dishonesty misdeed was NOT is taking the week off, but in reporting his work as if he had worked that week.

 

[emergentmd]

Ughhhh

I think we are splitting hairs. If I was filling out the generic form, I just sign and move on. I don't write a paragraph describing the missed week. I would not even think of it.

Again, seems crazy for a program to do this over something so small.

Agree or disagree on this matter, I just don't think anyone in their right mind would dismiss a student over something like this.

I suspect there is more to this story than what OP said. Med schools go out of their way to allow students to graduate. They find excuses to keep students who have done worse.

Thats like a judge giving a life sentence for someone jaywalking

 

[jw3600]

This thread reminds me why I fear and hate medical school administrators.

 

[mehc012]

If OPs story is correct and unbiased, he is being railroaded. Plain and simple. There was no dishonesty. There was no intent to break the rules. Comparing this to a lab handing you bags of $$$ for referrals is completely off base and not comparable.

I had students rotate with me and I told them to leave 2 hrs early when the ER is not busy. Should they have called their program director each time they left early?

I have scribes work with me and I tell them to leave early, do they have to tell their boss that they didn't do much work the last 2 hrs?

Give me a break. If my attending ever told me to go home early, I am halfway out the door while being thankful. If my attending told me as a 4th yr student to take a few dys or week off, I would think very little of it.

I am sure 90% of students could look back on their 4 yrs and find instances where they could be brought up for dismissal.

I remember as a med student when asked to go get a chart or drop off labs and I took longer than I should have. Dropped by the cafeteria to grab a bite, slipped off to make a phone call. I guess I was being dishonest???

As to the bolded, I got to leave early plenty of times as a scribe...and I clocked out when I did, even though it was an online system and I could have clocked out after I got home. That's just what you do when you are granted a vacation; you record it as time off. If I couldn't afford the time off, I asked the doc if I could stay to the end of my shift.

 

[jw3600]

As to the bolded, I got to leave early plenty of times as a scribe...and I clocked out when I did, even though it was an online system and I could have clocked out after I got home. That's just what you do when you are granted a vacation; you record it as time off. If I couldn't afford the time off, I asked the doc if I could stay to the end of my shift.

Yeah that’s a job. This is a bull**** meaningless fourth year rotation. There’s literally stories of people showing up to radiology and anesthesiology and being told “I can’t have students slowing me down take the time for yourself.” Should we kick them out too? Lol. Bringing examples from jobs and residents is ludicrous.

 

[DrSnips]

This is one of the most common reasons I end up terminating residents. They are assigned to clinic, but notice that their schedule is missing. So they just stay home, rather than bringing the issue to someone's attention.

When you say the schedule is missing, do you mean they actually have patients assigned that day but they don't appear on the schedule? Or do you mean the schedule truly is empty, but they are supposed to know to ask for more patients to see? If it's the former, then I think they need to be warned that empty schedules are always an error. If it's the latter, then that completely differs from my residency experience: The clinic schedule is accurate and if it says no patients then enjoy your half day off. You didn't need to ask for more patients because there are no more...if there were more they would have been on the schedule in the first place.

 

[emergentmd]

As to the bolded, I got to leave early plenty of times as a scribe...and I clocked out when I did, even though it was an online system and I could have clocked out after I got home. That's just what you do when you are granted a vacation; you record it as time off. If I couldn't afford the time off, I asked the doc if I could stay to the end of my shift.

Some of my scribes leave and clock out b/c they want to, some go home and clock out (yeah.... I know, but I am not their mother), and some sit around surfing the internet/clock out at the end.

So should we fire the scribes that sit around watching netflix until the end to clock out? In essence, they are getting paid doing nothing.

 

[Stagg737]

Then we agree to disagree.

Allowing someone to leave early if the ED is empty is fine.

Taking an entire week off is not.

This is one of the most common reasons I end up terminating residents. They are assigned to clinic, but notice that their schedule is missing. So they just stay home, rather than bringing the issue to someone's attention.

What if the 4th year told their PD "Hey, I have 2-3 interviews this week, can I take a few days off", then the PD told them to take the week off to interview? Are they being academically dishonest if they're told to take time off to interview for residencies or is that an acceptable reason to be excused? At my school we're not given any time off for this, so we basically have to take off days from rotation to do it. Is it academically dishonest to try and be more efficient and get more done all at once instead of spreading them out and missing more days? Even if our attendings tell us to do it?

I get where you're coming from, but M4 and residency are not the same thing, and there are times when it's more important for us to miss days, or even weeks, than make sure we show up to clinic.

When you say the schedule is missing, do you mean they actually have patients assigned that day but they don't appear on the schedule? Or do you mean the schedule truly is empty, but they are supposed to know to ask for more patients to see? If it's the former, then I think they need to be warned that empty schedules are always an error. If it's the latter, then that completely differs from my residency experience: The clinic schedule is accurate and if it says no patients then enjoy your half day off. You didn't need to ask for more patients because there are no more...if there were more they would have been on the schedule in the first place.

This is the experience I've had with residents and their attendings so far as well. When they were given a morning or day off, the attendings told them to go run errands or relax. They were expected to put so much time in already that any time off was a godsend as it helped them keep their real lives somewhat organized. An entire week and I agree they should probably check to make sure there wasn't some kind of mistake, but I wouldn't question getting a day off at any point given the amount of time we already put into this process.

 

[Perrotfish]

Allowing someone to leave early if the ED is empty is fine.

Taking an entire week off is not.

This is one of the most common reasons I end up terminating residents. They are assigned to clinic, but notice that their schedule is missing. So they just stay home, rather than bringing the issue to someone's attention.

The attending is the student/resident's boss on a rotation. Whatever they say to do is fine for the student to do, and if you as an administrator have a problem with what the attending says to do then take it up with the attending, not the student. MAYBE I can see the argument that if a clerk screws up, and doesn't schedule a resident for a clinic, then it's the resident's responsibility to fix it. However if the attending for the clinic says to take a day (or week) off then the student or resident has a day (or week) off.

 

[hello1234!]

When I was a resident and my assigned attending was off, I always ran it up the appropriate chain of command. Once they gave me the day off, but the others times I was assigned to something else. Also, my continuity clinic was kind of unorganized and they mixed up schedules a lot, however just leaving without reporting it is wrong I think. I think this is just a part of being a responsible physician.

 

[jw3600]

When I was a resident and my assigned attending was off, I always ran it up the appropriate chain of command. Once they gave me the day off, but the others times I was assigned to something else. Also, my continuity clinic was kind of unorganized and they mixed up schedules a lot, however just leaving without reporting it is wrong I think. I think this is just a part of being a responsible physician.

“WHEN I WAS A RESIDENT...”
Are people being purposefully obtuse?

 

[JP2740]

When I was a resident and my assigned attending was off, I always ran it up the appropriate chain of command. Once they gave me the day off, but the others times I was assigned to something else. Also, my continuity clinic was kind of unorganized and they mixed up schedules a lot, however just leaving without reporting it is wrong I think. I think this is just a part of being a responsible physician.

Hell naw man. I had multiple times I had extra time off, like doing outpatient when there was a major conference. Had like 5 days off. I got drunk everyday like a responsible physician. I'm not gonna go to my chiefs and say where else can I serve you masters.

Did the same **** as a med student. You know what, it may be wrong and may be a fireable offense, but I never got caught lol and I'd do it every single time over and over again. And you know what? I'm not a criminal or a bad doctor lol. Wtf was this student going to learn in 1 week in a family medicine office. We're willing to ruin this kids life because he wasn't swabbing throats for a week lmao. He got a lot of radiology interviews which suggests he's probably a competent and professional med student. If your preceptor gives you time off for whatever reason and you take it, you won't be a bad doctor because of it lol. Let's kick out med students and residents for doing bad ****. This is filed under who gives a ****.

 

[JP2740]

There seems to be a fairly widespread misconception here --

The academic dishonesty misdeed was NOT is taking the week off, but in reporting his work as if he had worked that week.

Reporting his work? He's getting paid now? He put down the dates of his rotation. I would've done the same exact thing. I probably HAVE done the same thing. I cannot imagine one of my friends (who are physicians) actually bringing this up to anyone either. I'm going to be a fellow in July. I haven't harmed anyone yet or brought down my institution with my professionalism issues lol.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

The attending is the student/resident's boss on a rotation. Whatever they say to do is fine for the student to do, and if you as an administrator have a problem with what the attending says to do then take it up with the attending, not the student. MAYBE I can see the argument that if a clerk screws up, and doesn't schedule a resident for a clinic, then it's the resident's responsibility to fix it. However if the attending for the clinic says to take a day (or week) off then the student or resident has a day (or week) off.

The more I think about this, the more I agree with what you've written.

Should the OP have told the administration about the week off? I mean yeah, probably. Is this so severe that it warrants dismissal? I don't think so.

OP should get called in, explain why the admin folks are concerned about this (and APD's example of "this could get you fired from residency" is a great example), put them on probation of some kind and call it a day.

 

[Goro]

The only other thing I can think of to explain why the school might be taking out the knife (and keep in mind here is that the Dean simply mentioned that there IS a knife, not that they're going to use it) is that the OP has had other issues (academic and/or professionalism) and as such has been on the radar.

Thus, the school might have been waiting for one more screw-up to actually use the knife.

As mentioned above, med schools go out of their way to get their students to graduation that it's harder to get out than in!

 

[emergentmd]

When I was a resident and my assigned attending was off, I always ran it up the appropriate chain of command. Once they gave me the day off, but the others times I was assigned to something else. Also, my continuity clinic was kind of unorganized and they mixed up schedules a lot, however just leaving without reporting it is wrong I think. I think this is just a part of being a responsible physician.

So if you attending for the month said to you that tomorrow I am playing golf and you should take the day off and relax, you would really go to your program director and ask him if there was work to do?"

Is this for real? If my resident/student did that, I would never offer him a day off again b/c he is too dumb to appreciate it.

 

[emergentmd]

Reporting his work? He's getting paid now? He put down the dates of his rotation. I would've done the same exact thing. I probably HAVE done the same thing. I cannot imagine one of my friends (who are physicians) actually bringing this up to anyone either. I'm going to be a fellow in July. I haven't harmed anyone yet or brought down my institution with my professionalism issues lol.

You must be a Lazy doctor. ))))))
Like Me.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Thats like a judge giving a life sentence for someone jaywalking

Reminded me of documentary of a man who robbed a place when he was a teenager, but got a full life sentence (he didn't even kill or hurt anyone). The law changed (for his case) to being held a maximum of 20 years I believe. So when he went to court again to get his sentence reduced, he ended up still getting the maximum sentence.

Point being is that people (especially the ones on here) like to think their is something more to this story, when there is that 1 in 1000 who actually do end up in these ridiculous situation. I believe he is that 1 in a 1000 who was unfortunately in this circumstance. Just like the example mentioned above.