Fourth year student about to be dismissed, HELP!!

[Game Changer 99]

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You are not understanding the administration's position, and you are refusing to learn what the school's obligations are.

You are refusing to understand what the actual responsibilities of the school administration are.

The preceptor messed up, but so did you. You should have known better.

I'm not refusing to understand anything. The preceptor is the school, its really that simple.

 

[el_duderino]

During interview season, students actually miss most days of a rotation and sometimes the whole thing. My attending is my boss, I do as they say, and am not "obligated" to make sure anyone else knows anything. That is a double edged sword, clearly a no win situation. Especially after I offered to find another attending and Dr. X insisted that I take the week off.

That attitude has worked out really well for you, and I'm sure it will continue to do so.

You will notice that you were brought before a disciplinary committee and had to retain a lawyer. I haven't.

Good luck to you.

Seriously, though, you neither understand nor care to understand what the administration's responsibilities are. They have obligations to the LCME to maintain accreditation, and letting students miss 25% of their family medicine rotation without any repercussions is not highly compatible with accreditation.

 

[el_duderino]

The preceptor is the school, its really that simple.

I don't know how to change your mind other than saying you have a deep, deep misunderstanding of the nature of a medical school, licensing, and administration.

 

[jcorpsmanMD]

Not only in education would you be punished for a transgression similar to this. In the real world (1) if your construction supervisor told you to take the week off, and you, all jolly, decided to take it off because he’s your “superior”, you would more likely than not, get in trouble. what happens when the foreman (or the owner of the construction company) comes around asks why you aren’t there? you’d certainly get reprimanded. (2) in the military (and pretty much anywhere you’ll ever work) there is a thing called chain of command, if your LPO (supervisor) tells you to take the rest of the day off or leave an hour early, more likely than not - it will be okay. but if he says you can take X days off, or a week, you better follow up the chain of the command, because it’s doubtful (he doesn’t) that he has the authority to grant you that time off.

I honestly don’t see what is so hard to comprehend about that notion? first year medical student, fourth year medical student, resident, etc. (All aside) you have a responsibility to your institution, employer, hell, even yourself, to make sure that your actions are within compliance in order to save your own #*%.

No I don’t think you said get expelled, or that this should ruin your residency opportunities but for anybody who is ever in a situation like this or similar (minor or big transgressions), be HUMBLE. do not blame your superior for your failure to follow up (lol) — I would go in there with a different attitude because yes you pay tuition but they provide you with everything you need to get that MD, and I’m certain that at the end of the day your tuition doesn’t cover all of your training, etc. you most certainly earned your way into medical school but it doesn’t mean you deserve to be there (not you particularly, again, I don’t think you should get expelled, etc.). I just remind everybody to be humble and seriously change your attitudes because it’s people making a fuss over silly things like this (oh it’s not my fault blah blah [insert excuse here]) that can really get you in trouble.

Sometimes, in the real world, you will have to take responsibility for things that aren’t always your fault. It sucks but that’s how it is, we all know life is unfair. This situation wasn’t necessarily your fault, but you should have followed up, your attending most definitely deserves a large portion of the blame though. sometimes you just have to suck it up (and no we medical students aren’t special, it isn’t unique to just us), that’s LIFE

/end rant

 

[el_duderino]

Not only in education would you be punished for a transgression similar to this. In the real world (1) if your construction supervisor told you to take the week off, and you, all jolly, decided to take it off because he’s your “superior”, you would more likely than not, get in trouble. what happens when the foreman (or the owner of the construction company) comes around asks why you aren’t there? you’d certainly get reprimanded. (2) in the military (and pretty much anywhere you’ll ever work) there is a thing called chain of command, if your LPO (supervisor) tells you to take the rest of the day off or leave an hour early, more likely than not - it will be okay. but if he says you can take X days off, or a week, you better follow up the chain of the command, because it’s doubtful (he doesn’t) that he has the authority to grant you that time off.

I honestly don’t see what is so hard to comprehend about that notion? first year medical student, fourth year medical student, resident, etc. (All aside) you have a responsibility to your institution, employer, hell, even yourself, to make sure that your actions are within compliance in order to save your own #*%.

No I don’t think you said get expelled, or that this should ruin your residency opportunities but for anybody who is ever in a situation like this or similar (minor or big transgressions), be HUMBLE. do not blame your superior for your failure to follow up (lol) — I would go in there with a different attitude because yes you pay tuition but they provide you with everything you need to get that MD, and I’m certain that at the end of the day your tuition doesn’t cover all of your training, etc. you most certainly earned your way into medical school but it doesn’t mean you deserve to be there (not you particularly, again, I don’t think you should get expelled, etc.). I just remind everybody to be humble and seriously change your attitudes because it’s people making a fuss over silly things like this (oh it’s not my fault blah blah [insert excuse here]) that can really get you in trouble.

/end rant

Pretty easy to understand OP's consternation when his opinion is "the preceptor is the school."

 

[Game Changer 99]

My lawyer sent me an email with the letter he is sending to my school. I'll summarize important content.

First, the key point and emphasis of this letter. The person wronged in this situation is me. The person who has been "damaged" is me. My school failed to provide me with a week of education that I paid for. After offering to work with another attending, I was denied a second time to complete one of the weeks I paid for. My school, including the dean, should be apologizing to me for setting me up with this attending and not providing me with this week.

The next part of the letter discusses a remedy to this problem. Obviously, this is to drop this whole mess. Specifically demanding the following: that I am not required to do an additional week or repeat the rotation, I am not cited for academic dishonesty and nothing is referenced on my academic record or transcript, my school is not to mention any of this to any residency programs or do anything that could negatively affect my residency placement.

The last part of the letter discusses future steps should the school fail to meet our demands. The quick summary is suing my school for damages which include the student loan debt, resident salary, and attending salary. Any action that results in a delay of medical school graduation or actions that affect residency placement will also be pursued.

My lawyer said these damages would reach into the millions of dollars because of a radiologist salary. This process would take years to unfold, but he is very confident this lawsuit would be successful and that my school doesn't want to go down this road.

 

[el_duderino]

I think it's becoming clear why OP ended up in front of a disciplinary committee.

Anyway, for all that you've been "wronged," you pursued exactly zero action to rectify your harms. You didn't tell the clerkship coordinator that you were given the week off. You didn't ask if it was OK. You didn't ask for someone else to work with. You just happily took your week off, then later said you spent 4 weeks on rotation.

Your lawyer telling you that the damages will reach into the millions sounds like a real trustworthy guy.

 

[NotYou20]

My school failed to provide me with a week of education that I paid for. After offering to work with another attending, I was denied a second time to complete one of the weeks I paid for.

Specifically demanding the following: that I am not required to do an additional week or repeat the rotation

These are completely contradictory. If you actually want to go ahead with the defense that you were wronged (which is silly), you'd be a fool to make that "demand."

And fwiw I think it's absurd that your school threatened dismissal over this, and I hope you come out of this without any long term repercussions

 

[Psai]

He clearly said he asked his attending for someone else to work with.

I and the rest of the world who aren't smug misanthropes would also take the week off without a second thought.

This is not the military. This is not work. This is SCHOOL. MEDICAL SCHOOL. MEDICAL STUDENT. STUDENT. NOT EMPLOYEE. STUDENT

 

[jakep2]

Damn, I just randomly clicked this thread while I was eating my sandwich. Skimmed through ~70% of the posts. Very interesting discussion.

Just wanted to let OP know to keep his head high and best of luck. I believe there was no intended dishonesty, if the evaluation form required filling in the rotation dates, I would have filled in the rotation dates as OP did. If my attending told me to take the rest of the week off, I'd probably ask him if there is anything else I can do, and if not take the time off. We all probably would ask at least once because we're cowardly, brown-nosing med students... but we all know deep down that we don't give two ****s about some FM clinical rotation. Some people think that lawyering up was too bold of a move, but really.. if a school you've been paying for ~4 years, trusted for good education and direction has the audacity to threaten you for dismissal for some stupid **** like this... they pushed you into a corner and forced your hand.

Hope things turn out for the best!

 

[Stagg737]

As OP pointed out, there seems to be a major disconnect in philosophy between school faculty and the rest of us. Is it surprising to see @aProgDirector @Goro and @mimelim , among others, against this guy? I guess we shouldnt be surprised given that OPs administration shares a similar mentality.

My question is - does the field select for these folks who are hyper-vigilant, over the top, and willing-to-end-a-young-mans-career over what is obviously (given the overwhelming responses in favor) a minor transgression?

I don't think most people here are against OP, and other than 1 or 2 people who seem to have worked on another planet than the rest of us before medical school, they aren't saying OP should be dismissed.

I still don’t see how if I skipped work for a week because my immediate supervisor told me not to show up would be a “minor transgression”

Because your immediate supervisor told you to take the week off. You wouldn't be skipping anything, you would be given the time off. There's a huge difference between the two.

I don't know where you people have worked in the past, but if I didn't show up a week because my (apparently brand new) immediate supervisor said he isn't starting until next week, I'd have been fired. I should have checked with his supervisor / my team lead / division head / whatever.

And if I filled out a time card later on that said I worked that week, I would have likely been docked pay and/or sued.

Based on past posts and this one, it seems like you've worked in some very unusual places, as your experiences are bizarre compared to almost everyone else I've ever talked to. If your immediate supervisor/boss tells you to take the week off and they weren't supposed to, that's not on you, it's on your boss and they would be the one reprimanded. If you worked somewhere that you would have been fired for that, you could legitimately sue the company for wrongful termination and win a decent settlement like the only person I've met irl that this happened to (the company was ordered to not only pay unemployment, but also the individual's salary until they found a new job).

If you filled out a time card saying you worked shifts you didn't, then you'd absolutely be in trouble. That's not what happened here though. The policy at OP's school wasn't to include the days you worked. It was to include the duration of the rotation. If OP went to one of the schools where you have to document every patient you see during each rotation and falsified that, or a place where you're only supposed to report the days you work, then you'd be right. Again, that's not the policy, so your comparison is invalid.

So for everyone saying that since the preceptor instructed him to take the time off, the OP did nothing wrong. I have a question -- where is the line? At what point is it the student's responsibility to notify the school, or seek out other opportunities?

If the preceptor told him to take 2 weeks off? 3 weeks? What if he said that he's too busy for the student, and the OP should just come in every day for 20 minutes to document he was there? Is that ok?

Imo, it's the preceptor's responsibility to make sure they are able to provide an adequate rotation to the student. If this attending felt like the student would get a solid learning experience in the field in 3 weeks, then this shouldn't be an issue. If the school feels like that's improper, they should reprimand the preceptor, not the student. Given that there are rotations across the country that are only 2 weeks long, I don't see why this is an issue for a 4th year elective rotation.

This only comes back to the student if the student feels like they are not getting an appropriate experience or that their preceptor is breaking some policy of the school. Obviously, the student felt like 3 weeks was an adequate experience and wasn't aware this was against policy, so again it shouldn't be an issue (although you can argue that if the policy does exist, ignorance is not an excuse, which is valid). Additionally, this student did seek out other opportunities. He asked if he should rotate with other docs in the practice and was told no, so again, not on him.

It would be interesting to have you discuss this from the perspective of a medical student and in the context of medical school. Residency is a totally different ball game. Do you fault my school at all? Shouldn't the largest share of the blame be on my school?

No, the largest share of blame should be on Dr. X for not living up to his clinical and administrative responsibilities. If he knew he was going on vacation or leaving, he should have never taken you on as a student in the first place. It's on the school to make sure he is providing an adequate clinical experience. If your school explicitly has a policy that you're supposed to report to them when you won't be in clinic for X number of days in order to find something for you to do, then it's partially on you as well. I completely agree with @operaman that all of this could have been avoided if your school had more clear cut policies though.

OP's responsibility is not to his preceptor.

It's to his institution.

He lied to his institution, covering up the time his preceptor gave him off.

Wrong. His responsibility is only to his institution if he feels a policy is being broken, otherwise it's to his preceptor. His preceptor and institution are both responsible for providing him with an adequate clinical experience. He did not cover anything up. His school's policy is that you list the dates between which the rotation occurs, not the specific dates you work. He listed the dates of the rotation exactly per his school's policy. Additionally, I find it very shady that the place he was rotating didn't immediately report that OP would be rotating with Dr. Y instead of Dr. X as that seems like an obvious administrative responsibility. Now, if you want to make the argument that OP should have reported to the school that Dr. X was no longer there and that he would be working with Dr. Y, that's a different story and I could see that argument being more legitimate. However, the school obviously does not see a problem with this, as they're not trying to punish him for rotating with the wrong person or even because he misreported his rotation, they're punishing him because he was told to take time off and obeyed. How people aren't grasping that fact is something I'm finding a little disturbing, as it shows a lack of basic logic and common sense...

 

[Newyawk]

http://email-junk.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/this-is-some-good-****.jpg

 

[Newyawk]

http://email-junk.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/this-is-some-good-****.jpg

 

[Newyawk]

gosh darn it. here.

 

[jakep2]

gosh darn it. here.

Third times a charm 🙂

 

[CherryRedDracul]

This is not the military. This is not work. This is SCHOOL. MEDICAL SCHOOL. MEDICAL STUDENT. STUDENT. NOT EMPLOYEE. STUDENT

Quoted for emphasis. Please, let's not pretend school is equivalent to employment.

 

[Stagg737]

(1) if your construction supervisor told you to take the week off, and you, all jolly, decided to take it off because he’s your “superior”, you would more likely than not, get in trouble. what happens when the foreman (or the owner of the construction company) comes around asks why you aren’t there? you’d certainly get reprimanded.

No, your supervisor who acted beyond their scope of responsibility would be reprimanded and you'd likely be told that he acted improperly. Maybe you'd be told to check with someone farther up next time or be told to review page X-Y of the policy handbook.

but if he says you can take X days off, or a week, you better follow up the chain of the command, because it’s doubtful (he doesn’t) that he has the authority to grant you that time off.

An employee is to be held accountable for knowing their own responsibilities and the responsibilities of the people working under them. They aren't responsible for their bosses' jobs or knowing what their bosses authority is.

I think it's becoming clear why OP ended up in front of a disciplinary committee.

Anyway, for all that you've been "wronged," you pursued exactly zero action to rectify your harms. You didn't tell the clerkship coordinator that you were given the week off. You didn't ask if it was OK. You didn't ask for someone else to work with. You just happily took your week off, then later said you spent 4 weeks on rotation.

Your lawyer telling you that the damages will reach into the millions sounds like a real trustworthy guy.

He did ask if it was okay. He did ask for someone else to work with. When he was told it was fine and that he should take the week off he did. There have been dismissal cases which have resulted in settlements in the millions, your ignorance of those cases doesn't make the lawyer's threats any less valid, nor does your apparent lack of reading comprehension.

 

[HopefulEMed]

This **** actually happened!? If this happened at my medical school, a) they probably wouldn't care as much b) they would understand this miscommunication and would probably expect you to be a little bit apologetic. And at MOST, my Deans would have been like "ok, you should have have told the Clerkship Director, but **** you got a week off? I am jealous, you Princess." And then, we would have hugged it out.

OP - please reveal the name of this medical school when you graduate so we can given them an appropriate level of shade they deserve. Bye, FELICIA.

 

[mistafab]

This is a good thread because there is clearly a tough dilemma to be in. If everything so far is true, then it is always tough to be in a situation where your supervisor says one thing and you were supposed to do another. It seems the school is mad particularly at the intent to decieve, which so far I don't think is present.

And the lawyer thing. Good move or not? I don't know. However, being a 4th year and having this ugly situation rear its ugly head would literally be a nightmare. This is a lose-lose right now for the school and OP. Can't wait for more updates! Best of luck.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

I'm hoping this will be my last post on this thread, because I think we're at the point where more posting isn't going to change anyone's mind.

Third year EM electives require 14 shifts. Fourth year EM electives only require 10 shifts because it is intended to be scheduled during interview season. Most of my classmates haven't even been able to complete 10 shifts due to so many interviews.

This is a policy I can get behind. Leaves flexibility for students to go on interviews. Maintains a minimum amount of work that needs to be done to get credit. This makes sense. I withdraw my comment that it was "ridiculous" (or whatever I said).

Uh, you're wrong. My school set me up with this attending. My job as a student is to do what my attending tells me to do, including when to come in to clinic. In no way did I ever lie about the experience or education I was getting.

You are such a better person than me, I will strive to reach the impossibly high ethical standards you have set forth.

I agree you didn't lie. I agree you didn't mean to do anything wrong. Yet, I hope you (and others) see that from the school's viewpoint, it looks different.

My lawyer sent me an email with the letter he is sending to my school. I'll summarize important content...

Your lawyer's job is to argue your side of the issue. I disagree with your lawyer that you can easily win -- medical schools are given wide latitude to set professionalism standards and most people who sue over something like this lose. I'd advise you not to send the letter, and let things be. Sometimes when you poke a skunk, you get sprayed. But it's your choice.

 

[W19]

OP has done nothing wrong... Our student handbook says we are required to be at our rotation sites at 7:30 am... When the surgeon I was rotating with told me to be there at 6:00 am, you think I should have told him student handbook says I am supposed to be there at 7:30am. If I brought that up to the clerkship director, you really think the clerkship director would say do whatever is in the handbook!

This thread shows how fu... we are when our own colleagues are siding with ambiguous (or even unfair) rules that are designed to ALWAYS put students in the losing column...

 

[CTFellowMD]

My lawyer sent me an email with the letter he is sending to my school. I'll summarize important content.

Despite my feelings that you are partly responsible, I will reiterate, I don't think you should be dismissed for this. That is insane.

That said, I sincerely hope you do not send that letter. You (and your lawyer) have a strong misunderstanding of the amount of leeway medical schools have re: professionalism. You also misunderstand that the preceptor is not the school, and does not work for the school. Not sure how you can play the defense that the school didn't provide you with a week of education, when you didn't even notify them you weren't being educated.

Your shift in attitude and the aggressiveness from your lawyer is not going to help you and is actually quite worrisome. Best of luck, but there is a strong possibility this won't end well for you if you push this hard right out the gate.

 

[68PGunner]

My bet is that the school would fold like a chair in a week.

If the details in this thread are true, settlement in the court of law would favor OP.

 

[LebronManning]

This thread and the result of this case is going to be groundbreaking in med school administration-student relations lol. SDN started the year with a bang

 

[DrSnips]

My bet is that the school would fold like a chair in a week.

If the details in this thread are true, settlement in the court of law would favor OP.

I am doubtful a court environment will favor OP. As it has been said, schools can set their own professionalism standards and expel those who fail to meet them. Whether those professionalism standards are reasonable to the average person is irrelevant -- you agree to uphold them by becoming a student at that institution. That said, I would question the sanity of any school administrator who is willing to go to court over this and take (an admittedly small) chance of losing millions of dollars of the school's money. If there's an infraction here at all it's a minor one and the wisest course of action would be to come to a mutually acceptable agreement.

 

[el_duderino]

This **** actually happened!? If this happened at my medical school, a) they probably wouldn't care as much b) they would understand this miscommunication and would probably expect you to be a little bit apologetic. And at MOST, my Deans would have been like "ok, you should have have told the Clerkship Director, but **** you got a week off? I am jealous, you Princess." And then, we would have hugged it out.

OP - please reveal the name of this medical school when you graduate so we can given them an appropriate level of shade they deserve. Bye, FELICIA.

OP doesn't strike me as ever having had any inkling of being apologetic to the school. That's probably related to why this got escalated to a disciplinary hearing.

 

[Psai]

School have a professional responsibility to the student to provide a proper education and a responsibility to society to train well educated, experienced physicians. But I would not continue pursuing the matter if the school drops it and wouldn't send a legal letter either.

 

[HomeSkool]

OK, I'll wade into the quagmire.

OP, I don't think you did anything intentionally dishonest, but I do think you did something shortsighted. A couple things, actually. Before I get into that, though, let me encourage you to de-escalate your verbiage a bit. You've been snippy with people who disagree on what is clearly not a cut-and-dried issue. These are anonymous strangers on an internet forum. Just relax, mate. If you don't like what someone has to say, use the "ignore" function and voilà! Problem solved.

I'm going to disagree with you on this statement:

My job as a student is to do what my attending tells me to do

At least, I'll disagree with the extent to which you're taking it. Suppose the attending said, "Hey, dude, I'm going on vacation for several weeks. Come back on the last day of the rotation and I'll sign your eval form." Would you follow those instructions without batting an eye? I seriously doubt it, because you're an intelligent and high-functioning adult. On the other hand, if he said, "Well, I'm not working the first day of the rotation so just come on Tuesday," do you think your school would make a stink? Probably not. So there's a line somewhere to define where acceptable behavior ends and unacceptable conduct begins. And therein lies the matter at the root of your current predicament: you and your school think that line should be at different places.

Based on what you've said, I think you acted with honest intentions. I don't think you made a moral error. I do think you made a procedural error. In the event that an attending had told me to take free time for 25% of a rotation for which I was paying good money, I'd have done as you did and asked if I could work with another attending. Being told I could not, I still would've thought, Hmm...I still don't want to get burned here. I should probably just touch base with the clerkship director to make sure this is OK. So I would've said to the attending, "The school's pretty particular about our time off. I'd like to see if they have any other ideas for how I should spend the week." And then I would've reached out to the clerkship director in a very neutral way -- one that didn't come off as calling my attending an idiot -- to see what they wanted me to do. Some people in this thread will call me crazy ("You'd actually look a gift horse in the mouth?") but I'd answer that I'm being careful ("I'd rather do extra work than end up on the bad side of my school's administration when I'm in a very vulnerable position."). We can argue all day about whether you should have had to do that, but I think that's irrelevant to your situation. The fact is that if you had handled it that way, this thread wouldn't exist.

The second shortsighted thing I think you did was to blindside your school with an attorney. I agree that they were probably trying to scare you to soften you up a bit, but I also agree that they were probably going to ask you to just do one more week of FP clerkship and advise them of any schedule irregularities going forward. I think you would have been wise to go to the first meeting and feel out the tone. If they came in there nice and reasonable, this could have been very easy to resolve. If they came playing hardball, you could have simply told them you were seeking legal advice. But that way, at least you could say you tried to resolve things as peaceably as possible. Instead, you went to the meeting and started the discussion by throwing a hand grenade on the table. And here's why I think that was a bad idea: your school has lawyers on retainer who surely know the relevant laws and legal opinions very, very well. If your school decides to fight you, things could get ugly. And it's true -- you might win some damages (though I personally believe that's very unlikely, given the situation). But I doubt a court is going to award you millions of dollars of future salary for a competitive specialty into which you haven't matched. And even if you get a judgment in your favor, you'll be branded as a troublemaker by residency programs. That will end your radiology hopes faster than you can believe. I think your only hope at this point is for the school to give you an out-of-court agreement that includes a total wall of silence on the entire issue. I know your attorney says you're completely blameless and can get whatever you want, but you're also paying him for that opinion. Take it with a grain of salt.

Additionally, your lawyer may say you suffered "damages" by being cheated out of a week of rotation. Your school will counter that you failed to inform them of any irregularities, and that had you done so they would have provided the week of education for which you paid. They didn't "damage" you, you cheated yourself out of a week of education by paying for but not claiming it. In addition, they'll argue that they, as the credit-granting body, retain the right to determine what constitutes satisfactory completion of academic requirements. Yes, they should have a clear-cut policy delineating those requirements, but you also could have taken reasonable steps to protect yourself.

I hope you can get this thing worked out quickly; I think an amicable solution became impossible when you brought in a lawyer without making a prior attempt to solve this. As I said, I don't think you acted maliciously, but I do think you acted foolishly. Defensive driving courses teach you to drive as if every other driver could potentially hit you; this principle has clear applicability to other areas of life. In the future, I hope you do a better job of seeing the hidden lions before traipsing through the tall grass. Whether you're right or wrong here, wouldn't you rather just have avoided the whole ugly affair?

 

[el_duderino]

OK, I'll wade into the quagmire.

OP, I don't think you did anything intentionally dishonest, but I do think you did something shortsighted. A couple things, actually. Before I get into that, though, let me encourage you to de-escalate your verbiage a bit. You've been snippy with people who disagree on what is clearly not a cut-and-dried issue. These are anonymous strangers on an internet forum. Just relax, mate. If you don't like what someone has to say, use the "ignore" function and voilà! Problem solved.

I'm going to disagree with you on this statement:

At least, I'll disagree with the extent to which you're taking it. Suppose the attending said, "Hey, dude, I'm going on vacation for several weeks. Come back on the last day of the rotation and I'll sign your eval form." Would you follow those instructions without batting an eye? I seriously doubt it, because you're an intelligent and high-functioning adult. On the other hand, if he said, "Well, I'm not working the first day of the rotation so just come on Tuesday," do you think your school would make a stink? Probably not. So there's a line somewhere to define where acceptable behavior ends and unacceptable conduct begins. And therein lies the matter at the root of your current predicament: you and your school think that line should be at different places.

Based on what you've said, I think you acted with honest intentions. I don't think you made a moral error. I do think you made a procedural error. In the event that an attending had told me to take free time for 25% of a rotation for which I was paying good money, I'd have done as you did and asked if I could work with another attending. Being told there was not, I still would have thought, Hmm...I still don't want to get burned here. I should probably just touch base with the clerkship director to make sure this is OK. So I would've said to the attending, "The school's pretty particular about our time off. I'd like to see if they have any other ideas for how I should spend the week." And then I would've reached out to the clerkship director in a very neutral way -- one that didn't come off as calling my attending an idiot -- to see what they wanted me to do. Some people in this thread will call me crazy ("You'd actually look a gift horse in the mouth?") but I'd answer that I'm being careful ("I'd rather do extra work than end up on the bad side of my school's administration when I'm in a very vulnerable position."). We can argue all day about whether you should have had to do that, but I think that's irrelevant to your situation. The fact is that if you had handled it that way, this thread wouldn't exist.

The second shortsighted thing I think you did was to blindside your school with an attorney. I agree that they were probably trying to scare you to soften you up a bit, but I also agree that they were probably going to ask you to just do one more week of FP clerkship and advise them of any schedule irregularities going forward. I think you would have been wise to go to the first meeting and feel out the tone. If they came in there nice and reasonable, this could have been very easy to resolve. If they came playing hardball, you could have simply told them you were seeking legal advice. But that way, at least you could say you tried to resolve things as peaceably as possible. Instead, you went to the meeting and started the discussion by throwing a hand grenade on the table. And here's why I think that was a bad idea: your school has lawyers on retainer who surely know the relevant laws and legal opinions very, very well. If your school decides to fight you, things could get ugly. And it's true -- you might win some damages (though I personally believe that's very unlikely, given the situation). But I doubt a court is going to award you millions of dollars of future salary for a competitive specialty into which you haven't matched. And even if you get a judgment in your favor, you'll be branded as a troublemaker by residency programs. That will end your radiology hopes faster than you can believe. I think your only hope at this point is for the school to give you an out-of-court agreement that includes a total wall of silence on the entire issue. I know your attorney says you're completely blameless and can get whatever you want, but you're also paying him for that opinion. Take it with a grain of salt.

Additionally, your lawyer may say you suffered "damages" by being cheated out of a week of rotation. Your school will counter that you failed to inform them of any irregularities, and that had you done so they would have provided the week of education for which you paid tuition. They didn't "damage" you, you cheated yourself out of a week of education. In addition, they'll argue that they, as the credit-granting body, retain the right to determine what constitutes satisfactory completion of academic requirements. Yes, they should have a clear-cut policy delineating the requirements, but you also could have taken reasonable steps to protect yourself.

I hope you can get this thing worked out quickly; I think an amicable solution became impossible when you brought in a lawyer without making a prior attempt to solve this. As I said, I don't think you acted maliciously, but I do think you acted foolishly. Defensive driving courses teach you to drive as if every other driver could potentially hit you; this principle has clear applications in other areas of life. In the future, I hope you do a better job of seeing the hidden lions before traipsing through the tall grass. Whether you're right or wrong here, wouldn't you rather have just avoided the whole ugly affair?

I think I agree with everything you've said here. You're far more polite and diplomatic than I am.

 

[LebronManning]

know your attorney says you're completely blameless and can get whatever you want, but you're also paying him for that opinion. Take it with a grain of salt.

This.

I think your lawyer is either an idiot or you're being way too gullible listening to someone who is feeding you what you want to hear to make sure you don't hire anyone else in exchange for $$$. His argument that the school is responsible for the week's activities is kinda trash. This isn't middle school. That's kind of like saying a school should be held responsible if a student is found to have cheated on a test because they should have prevented it from happening.

At the end of the day, you did kinda lie, but it wasn't a big deal at all. They were gonna give you a stern talking and let you go. But now you truly have engaged in a BATTLE. This may drag on for years. It may affect your future. I agree that med school administrators may bully students at times but that's just the nature of the powers that be. Can't change it, so you just adapt.

Here's the thing. This just doesn't end anywhere better than it would have if you had just gone to that meeting and been cordial = reflection paper and maybe redo some part of the rotation. Now that you've thrown a grenade on the table (credit: HomeSkool), the school's legal team will not pursue this if they think they will lose, they'll fold and you'll have the same result you would've by being nice as you do after paying your lawyer thousands of dollars. Worse would be if the school's legal team advises they are good to go. In this situation, you are screwed. I assure you the school's legal team is better than yours. In this case, say goodbye to medicine. With that said, I still believe the likely conclusion is gonna be a win for you just cause the school doesn't want this hassle lol, but at the cost of whatever you're paying your lawyer.

 

[Lawpy]

OK, I'll wade into the quagmire.

OP, I don't think you did anything intentionally dishonest, but I do think you did something shortsighted. A couple things, actually. Before I get into that, though, let me encourage you to de-escalate your verbiage a bit. You've been snippy with people who disagree on what is clearly not a cut-and-dried issue. These are anonymous strangers on an internet forum. Just relax, mate. If you don't like what someone has to say, use the "ignore" function and voilà! Problem solved.

I'm going to disagree with you on this statement:

At least, I'll disagree with the extent to which you're taking it. Suppose the attending said, "Hey, dude, I'm going on vacation for several weeks. Come back on the last day of the rotation and I'll sign your eval form." Would you follow those instructions without batting an eye? I seriously doubt it, because you're an intelligent and high-functioning adult. On the other hand, if he said, "Well, I'm not working the first day of the rotation so just come on Tuesday," do you think your school would make a stink? Probably not. So there's a line somewhere to define where acceptable behavior ends and unacceptable conduct begins. And therein lies the matter at the root of your current predicament: you and your school think that line should be at different places.

Based on what you've said, I think you acted with honest intentions. I don't think you made a moral error. I do think you made a procedural error. In the event that an attending had told me to take free time for 25% of a rotation for which I was paying good money, I'd have done as you did and asked if I could work with another attending. Being told I could not, I still would've thought, Hmm...I still don't want to get burned here. I should probably just touch base with the clerkship director to make sure this is OK. So I would've said to the attending, "The school's pretty particular about our time off. I'd like to see if they have any other ideas for how I should spend the week." And then I would've reached out to the clerkship director in a very neutral way -- one that didn't come off as calling my attending an idiot -- to see what they wanted me to do. Some people in this thread will call me crazy ("You'd actually look a gift horse in the mouth?") but I'd answer that I'm being careful ("I'd rather do extra work than end up on the bad side of my school's administration when I'm in a very vulnerable position."). We can argue all day about whether you should have had to do that, but I think that's irrelevant to your situation. The fact is that if you had handled it that way, this thread wouldn't exist.

The second shortsighted thing I think you did was to blindside your school with an attorney. I agree that they were probably trying to scare you to soften you up a bit, but I also agree that they were probably going to ask you to just do one more week of FP clerkship and advise them of any schedule irregularities going forward. I think you would have been wise to go to the first meeting and feel out the tone. If they came in there nice and reasonable, this could have been very easy to resolve. If they came playing hardball, you could have simply told them you were seeking legal advice. But that way, at least you could say you tried to resolve things as peaceably as possible. Instead, you went to the meeting and started the discussion by throwing a hand grenade on the table. And here's why I think that was a bad idea: your school has lawyers on retainer who surely know the relevant laws and legal opinions very, very well. If your school decides to fight you, things could get ugly. And it's true -- you might win some damages (though I personally believe that's very unlikely, given the situation). But I doubt a court is going to award you millions of dollars of future salary for a competitive specialty into which you haven't matched. And even if you get a judgment in your favor, you'll be branded as a troublemaker by residency programs. That will end your radiology hopes faster than you can believe. I think your only hope at this point is for the school to give you an out-of-court agreement that includes a total wall of silence on the entire issue. I know your attorney says you're completely blameless and can get whatever you want, but you're also paying him for that opinion. Take it with a grain of salt.

Additionally, your lawyer may say you suffered "damages" by being cheated out of a week of rotation. Your school will counter that you failed to inform them of any irregularities, and that had you done so they would have provided the week of education for which you paid. They didn't "damage" you, you cheated yourself out of a week of education by paying for but not claiming it. In addition, they'll argue that they, as the credit-granting body, retain the right to determine what constitutes satisfactory completion of academic requirements. Yes, they should have a clear-cut policy delineating those requirements, but you also could have taken reasonable steps to protect yourself.

I hope you can get this thing worked out quickly; I think an amicable solution became impossible when you brought in a lawyer without making a prior attempt to solve this. As I said, I don't think you acted maliciously, but I do think you acted foolishly. Defensive driving courses teach you to drive as if every other driver could potentially hit you; this principle has clear applicability to other areas of life. In the future, I hope you do a better job of seeing the hidden lions before traipsing through the tall grass. Whether you're right or wrong here, wouldn't you rather have just avoided the whole ugly affair?

This is the best possible advice (and fits well with @aProgDirector posts) regarding the current situation. I definitely agree that OP pretty much sank himself for bringing in a lawyer in a completely unexpected manner. That was a very bad move on his part as things could've otherwise been resolved more reasonably and safely.

 

[Gilakend]

The main point I got out of this thread is: that lawyer got you hook, line and sinker, my dude. Has any lawyer EVER recommended someone go somewhere without (paying) them?

Hopefully this doesn't escalate too far for OP as he obviously shouldn't be dismissed for this, but a lawyer paired with OP's 0%-to-blame attitude doesn't exactly scream "compromise" to me.

 

[Perrotfish]

My bet is that the school would fold like a chair in a week.

If the details in this thread are true, settlement in the court of law would favor OP.

Unfortunately, schools and residencies have been given almost complete autonomy in terms of deciding what they want to do with the lives of their learners. I doubt a court would favor the OP, however ethically in the right he might be. There really is no group in the country as completely unprotected as students, particularly students in a pathway for any kind of licensure.

A take home message from this thread, and many others like it, is that the ever multiplying overlords of academia really need their own set of regulations and regulators to keep them in check.

 

[68PGunner]

Unfortunately, schools and residencies have been given almost complete autonomy in terms of deciding what they want to do with the lives of their learners. I doubt a court would favor the OP, however ethically in the right he might be. There really is no group in the country as completely unprotected as students, particularly students in a pathway for any kind of licensure.

A take home message from this thread, and many others like it, is that the ever multiplying overlords of academia really need their own set of regulations and regulators to keep them in check.

You guys make it sound like the school is going to get away from this mess free of damage and repercussion. There’s something in this day and age that’s called bad publicity via social media and the Internet. The school in no shape or form wants this garbage marring their reputation.

My guess is that both sides will come to an settlement in which OP will remediate one week of rotation chilling in an outpatient FM office.

Finally, doesn’t the OP have a chat w/ the Dean before the whole lawyer thing in which he was informed that the chance of expulsion is VERY REAL? I’m going to give OP the benefit here by assuming that he’s not an idiot and thereby correctly interprets the tone from that conversation. If the threat is real, you don’t play defense; you go on offense and show the enemy that you mean serious business with the hope for a settlement on amicable terms.

There’s nothing wrong with the demands from the lawyer letter. However, I hope that OP doesn’t buy into his own hype and realize that the endgame is to remediate and graduate w/o any issue rather than to embarrass the school and its admin.

 

[Stagg737]

.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

You guys make it sound like the school is going to get away from this mess free of damage and repercussion. There’s something in this day and age that’s called bad publicity via social media and the Internet. The school in no shape or form wants this garbage marring their reputation.

That paragraph is nonsense.

This is a US MD school. They could publicly announce that all students must wrestle their diploma from a bear and they'd still fill their first year class next year without breaking a sweat.

 

[deleted480308]

My lawyer sent me an email with the letter he is sending to my school. I'll summarize important content.

First, the key point and emphasis of this letter. The person wronged in this situation is me. The person who has been "damaged" is me. My school failed to provide me with a week of education that I paid for. After offering to work with another attending, I was denied a second time to complete one of the weeks I paid for. My school, including the dean, should be apologizing to me for setting me up with this attending and not providing me with this week.

The next part of the letter discusses a remedy to this problem. Obviously, this is to drop this whole mess. Specifically demanding the following: that I am not required to do an additional week or repeat the rotation, I am not cited for academic dishonesty and nothing is referenced on my academic record or transcript, my school is not to mention any of this to any residency programs or do anything that could negatively affect my residency placement.

The last part of the letter discusses future steps should the school fail to meet our demands. The quick summary is suing my school for damages which include the student loan debt, resident salary, and attending salary. Any action that results in a delay of medical school graduation or actions that affect residency placement will also be pursued.

My lawyer said these damages would reach into the millions of dollars because of a radiologist salary. This process would take years to unfold, but he is very confident this lawsuit would be successful and that my school doesn't want to go down this road.

It’s easy for the lawyer to play fast and loose with your future.

Unless that lawyer has contracted to personally write you a check for $200k every year if this fails their “confidence “ isn’t worth the paper I wipe with.

It sounds all cool and empowering to talk crap to you superiors but it’s dangerous as hell. Picture that wall street bull statue with the liitle girl statue now in front of it. It makes for some interesting social discussion but you know what happens to a girl that size in a battle with a charging bull? She dies and the bull doesn’t even sprain an ankle.

I just really hope you’re trolling us

 

[deleted480308]

That paragraph is nonsense.

This is a US MD school. They could publicly announce that all students must wrestle their diploma from a bear and they'd still fill their first year class next year without breaking a sweat.

Exactly.

We have pages of a thread on this very forum of folks willing to eat a poop hotdog for an acceptance

 

[ACSurgeon]

There seem to be a few things that are being misunderstand.

My evaluation lists rotation dates, these dates are the ones assigned by my school. They run from Sunday to Saturday, even if you don't show up on Sunday. My school doesn't seem to be implying that I lied because I included the week I was told to stay home as the start date. I did show up the first Monday and my attending wasn't seeing patients that day, he was just in the office finishing some stuff up before he left for his flight in a few hours. My school doesn't require any type of log for specific days or hours worked. For example, our EM rotation requires completing ten shifts over a four week period. I completed my ten shifts in 15 days, I had a two week break. I suppose my evaluation submitted was fraudulent since I listed the four week period.

I'm not sure why we are comparing residency to medical school. Apples and oranges. In residency, one is working (earning income), totally different set of circumstances.

Throwing around the dismissal word is cruel for any medical school to do over this. No rational person would ever consider dismissal as an option for this, it shouldn't even be in the discussion. This does show the incredible power imbalance. The medical school is the judge, jury, and executioner. Most medical students either can't afford an attorney or think they don't need one, they allow schools to bully around students and misrepresent the facts. The facts in this situation are I pay tuition to my school and they set me up with an attending who told me to take the week off (despite me asking if I should find another attending) and I followed his directions. Only in education could I be punished. My school seems to think they made no wrongs in this area. Do any of you crazy pro-administration people think the school is at fault, even a little?

To this point, we will see if Dr. X is contacted. My school believes me about being told to take the week off. For this reason, I don't think contacting Dr. X will likely benefit me or strengthen the school's position. For lawyer is handling contacting Dr. X, but he said it probably won't have much impact.

How is it that your super-amazing lawyer didn’t tell you to keep quiet until this blows over? If anyone from your school reads this thread, you’ll have one hell of a time trying to convince them that you’re humble or willing to learning from experience. So you’re gambling that this lawyer will 100% win this for you. You should get off this thread and stop digging yourself a hole

 

[Newyawk]

How is it that your super-amazing lawyer didn’t tell you to keep quiet until this blows over? If anyone from your school reads this thread, you’ll have one hell of a time trying to convince them that you’re humble or willing to learning from experience. So you’re gambling that this lawyer will 100% win this for you. You should get off this thread and stop digging yourself a hole

For real. I think the admins should give this kid a courtesy deletion of this thread asap. Or if they wont do that bc of the "you have to pay me first" clause, OP should just pay the 35 or whatever it costs and delete this **** before anyone sees it

 

[Perrotfish]

It’s easy for the lawyer to play fast and loose with your future.

Unless that lawyer has contracted to personally write you a check for $200k every year if this fails their “confidence “ isn’t worth the paper I wipe with.

It sounds all cool and empowering to talk crap to you superiors but it’s dangerous as hell. Picture that wall street bull statue with the liitle girl statue now in front of it. It makes for some interesting social discussion but you know what happens to a girl that size in a battle with a charging bull? She dies and the bull doesn’t even sprain an ankle.

I just really hope you’re trolling us

Laying down in front of the bull doesn't exactly work either.

Honestly I don't know if the lawyer is the right answer. I am pretty sure the OP won't win a court battle, but that's not the point of the lawyer. This is about psychology. The OP is betting that the school's admins are unreasonable at baseline, but that they care more about not spending days in depositions/legal prep/court than they care about being unreasonable.

I have seen this strategy work before. I can also imagine a situation where it just pisses the deans off and hardens their position, pushing them to recommend a stronger punishment than they would have otherwise. I don't think we will ever have enough data points to say which strategy has better odds of success.

 

[Winged Scapula]

It has become apparent that the OP has previously been banned on our website for trolling.

While the current topic may be real, the user has been removed. Thank you to everyone for their input and attempts to help a member of our community.