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Well DOs clearly win in this context, since they care about the whole individual, rather than just stats.not to hijack...but..MD VS DO?!
... what?
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... what?
how does that affect the argument at all? Would you be pleased if your dearest parent demean your achievement like that?
you also have to look at the other side of the story
http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2008/mcatgparaceeth08.htm
the mean gpa and mcat scores are lower for URM applicants and matriculates (MCAT about 4-5 points lower GPA .2-.25 lower)
also where are you getting 95% from....??? Just take the Mexican American column for example ---> 992 applications and 460 matriculate thats almost 50%
just to be clear, i am not trying to start a debate i am just presenting the facts.
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Less than 1 year of salary will make that up if you plan on going into a high paying field and you have the drive to get into that field. Even still, going into the lowest paying fields would make that up in 2-3 years.
Obviously URMs face discrimination, but so do other minority groups. I get profiled by police/security when I go on planes, public events, and etc, but I dont use it as a justification for preferential treatment in medical admissions. At the same time, how does being stopped by police have anything to do with education? I can understand giving preferential treatment to URMs that come from environments where education is poor/inaccessible,I just think it should not be limited to URMs from those environments.
Moreover, in regards to hardships that URMs face, I agree that blacks and native americans face more discrimination than other ethnic group in America through institutions and historial events. However, how does one justify affirmative action for hispanics, besides on the basis of underrepresentation? I dont see any different between their experiences/discrimination than those faced by any other immigrant group to this country(ex. Jews, Arabs, Asians, Irish, Armenians, Italians, so forth).
And so they should be allowed into a school with lesser scores because of this?
Should we apply this to everything? Should they have lower standards for becoming board certified? Well, I guess I don't really need a doctor that knows what they are doing as long as I am helping equal the playing field.
this might be hard to wrap your head around so stay with me here, people....
maybe, just maybe the MCAT and your GPA are NOT great indicators of whether you will be a good doctor!!! Yes, someone with a 35 MCAT might get better grades or do better on the board exam, but that doesn't mean CLINICALLY you will be a better physician! The MCAT has NOTHING to do with medicine. Nada. Zip. Zilch. Zero.
I think there is a threshold score for the MCAT that shows competence to do well in medical school (maybe a 24-26). Once you pass that mark, schools deem you qualified and now you have to compete with your peers, hence the steady rise in scores as more and more people compete for the same spot.
It's like IQ. Once you reach the threshold IQ, the differences are negligible and it doesn't correlate to success anymore. (anyone read Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell?)
So it is NOT that the standards are lower, it is that COMPETITION is lower. Everyone accepted meets the threshold of competency.
Not at all the point I'm trying to make is that you have a parent that cares about your success. The reason why many URMs can't overcome is that their parents are ignorant or apathetic about their child's academic achievements.
Yes if you are a URM with the typical stats that an ORM needs to get into college or a medical school in most cases you can easily get in. Is that fair for others? But I'm sure disadvantage ORMs get boosts too. I mean some ORMs with 15 MCAT scores have gotten acceptance
so urm docs dont know what they are doing? they are not qualified to be docs? foolishness. pass = md. isnt the board pass rate for urms ~90%?
bottom line is no one will accept you if they don't think you can pass the boards
Dear God, why doesn't anyone acknowledge the cultural aspect? URMs exist because minority communities are underrepresented. Period. People like to go to doctors who understand where they come from and the kind of culture they grew up with. This is a fact. You can't fake being hispanic or african-american. This is another fact. Therefore, in order for the med schools to pursue their ultimate goal (to create physicians who'll deal with the realities of today's medicine), they need to accept more people of those underrepresented groups. Does that occasionally result in those underrepresented minorities to have lower stats? Sure. Does it matter? No. It just plain doesn't. You want to be a doctor, and help people effectively? Accept that this is the best we can do for those underrepresented groups. Or come up with something better. Until you do, deal with it.
Exactly. The fact that a URM is going to get into med school with low stats doesn't keep me from getting a seat in med school. Simply look at how many seats actually go to URMs and ask yourself if you were a seriously competitive applicant, whether you would be robbed an acceptance.
Moreover, this isn't like undergrad where some people really don't have a grasp of the English language and shouldn't be accepted but are anyway. I think it's fair to say that all of your peers in medical school are qualified to be there.
I wish to point out that while Asians represent 4.2% of the US population (http://www.census.gov/prod/2002pubs/c2kbr01-16.pdf), they represent >20% of the students matriculating at US allopathic medical schools. (http://www.aamc.org/newsroom/pressrel/2008/enrollmentdata2008.pdf see page 4 ) I would hardly call the medical school policies that produce such results to be RACIST and damaging to an Asian applicant.
Well I was going to stay out of this but since you addressed me directly, I'll be as brief as I can.
The idea is that applicants have different strengths and weaknesses. Some applicants have high GPA and MCAT and no volunteer work. Some applicants have intense research but less than average grades. Some applicants have it all.
A strength that many URM have is that they
1) Persevered through an environment and culture where they often face challenges that other ethnic groups don't encounter or understand.
2) Possess a quality (their ethnicity) that makes them well suited to a group of patients who have troubles relating to and trusting their physicians because the two groups cannot connect with each other.
As in everything else an applicant has to offer, some strengths mitigate other weaknesses.
So why all the contreversy over URM applicants? Well, I can only assume that many people don't see their strengths as strengths but merely inconsequential attributes. Whether you want to accept this or not isn't my decision nor is it my concern, this isn't my fight.
There are plenty of MDs that I don't think are qualified to be doctors and to think otherwise is ignorant.
90% is not a good pass rate btw when the average for most schools is in the mid 90% range.
Accepting people that are subpar based on the color of their skin is a stupid idea and there is nothing to support otherwise.
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Although I do agree that URM patients tend to relate to URM doctors better and this is in fact an advantage, I disagree that just because someone is a URM that they are automatically disadvantaged. I agree with the people that instead of helping URMs as a whole, we should be focusing on URMs that are financially and socially disadvantaged. There should be other qualifiers besides the color of one's skin.
a policy that is based purely on the color of someone's skin is racism, don't you think? I imagine you have a very good understanding of how AA works, being an adcom yourself.
If AA in your medical school involving have a specific quota for URMs, or letting someone in you wouldn't otherwise let in just because of the color of the skin, wouldn't that be racism? In my opinion, if the skin color enters equation at all, it's racism.
For example, if you have a black applicant who grew up in a rich neighborhood but claimed to be "active in the community", and an Asian immigrant who grew up in a rough neighborhood, and the Asian person has a higher numerical stats, who would you let in first?
The over-representation of Asians doesn't make a policy less racist. There are huge amount of African Americans players in NFL and not a whole lot of Asians, how come we don't see "aspiringjocks.com"? I am sure I can get a study to show that Asians prefer to see their own sport stars.
I am just trying to argue, on a philosophical level, that using affirmative action is using more racism to correct racism. I agree that the US needs more physicians who are more familiar with the cultural and socioeconomic status of people they are serving, I do not agree with a lump sum system that give advantage to rich URM applicants and hurt poor ORM applicants, that is all.
There are no "quotas". If you had a disadvantaged childhood, complete that section of the AMCAS and it will be taken into consideration. I can't recall any rich URM with subpar stats. The only one I recall (rich and URM) had a LizzyM score of about 78. 👍 If I had a poor ORM with a 79 I'd find a way to take both of them.
glad to hear your take.
Theres a difference between affirmative action and race-based admissions (i.e. "quotas" in the former, preference in the latter). If there are indeed "quotas", then why do many med schools have so few URMs, especially when the acceptance rates for URMs mirror that of other groups?
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again, YOU do not determine who is subpar. adcom do. why are you so arrogant? let adcom do their job, and stop being an a_ss. you should be studying instead of slinging nonsense and meddling interjecting your biased and bitter opinions in affairs YOU have no qualifications to judge (to my understanding). 😉
who cares if you find doctors to be incompetent? what does that have to do with anything? the fact that those docs passed the boards means they are smart enough to do the job. if they are found to be incompetent, blame it on lack of xyz. it's not that they are not intelligemt enough- their weakness lies elsewhere.
wait, what?! being a doctor is about more than just knowing a lot of science?? it's not as straight forward as having high test scores/gpa/intelligence?? medicine is also an art and a discipline?? 😱
and yes, accepting people (based on race) who dont have a chance at being a decent doctor is silly. who would do such a thing? it would be a collosal waste of money and a diservice to the field of medicine. why accepts someone who cant pass boards?
and who are you kidding to tell me that a 90% pass rate is NO GOOD. fail. a little of over 5% less than average isnt exceptional, obviously, but it certainly proves urms can handle medicine and are far from what you are trying to peg them as. all these "subpar" urm running around and yet 9/10 earn their md. funny how that works
Heres my question: While patients prefer physicians of similar backgrounds as themselves(as proven in numerous studies), would this be the case if the patient was told that the physician was less qualified(via all quantifable metrics(ex. test scores, etc)), or had to go through less work than the other physicians available? All the studies I have read about this topic, have assumed that everything else is equal between physicians but cultural/racial background.
Personally, if I had to choose between physicans, assuming everything else is equal but appearances, I would choose blonde female physicians(the male immigrant fantasy🙂).
Not sure if this is true or not, but I read online that URM success rates in medical school are strengthened by schools giving them greater resources(tutoring programs and etc) than are available to the general student population.
In particular, it mentioned how the Texas med schools used to only allow URMs to their summer educational/ medical foundation programs(at the time they were called summer minority programs) and only changed this policy to make it more inclusive for other medical students after a lawsuit was brought on by anti-affirmative actions groups(and as a result, also changed the name of the programs to summer enrichment programs).
In particular, it mentioned how the Texas med schools used to only allow URMs to their summer educational/ medical foundation programs(at the time they were called summer minority programs) and only changed this policy to make it more inclusive for other medical students after a lawsuit was brought on by anti-affirmative actions groups(and as a result, also changed the name of the programs to summer enrichment programs).
When was the last time you heard a patient ask for their doctor's college gpa/mcat scores or even their board scores?
I've been a patient many times, and numbers are the last thing on my mind when I'm interacting with a clinician. Once you pass a certain level of competency (board certification) numbers don't matter, it's more about factors that are not quantifiable, like judgment, empathy, and confidence. I've rarely encountered board certified doctors that are ignorant, but I've seen many who were absolute pricks that functioned like machines.
P.S.
4.0/45 means nothing to underserved populations if that physician is practicing derm in socal.
Before saying anything regarding this matter, I just want to preface it by saying that I am not a troll since that will be the most likely response since I haven't posted anything besides my desperate pleas to get off the waitlist at my top choice school.
I didn't realize how much race would factor into admissions until I applied this year and started reading SDN. After realizing this, I think it's crap that race is such a huge factor especially since many of the assumptions that go into race based admissions are faulty.
1) Having immigrant parents who have NO IDEA what the process is like in this country is an obstacle that many ORM Asians face. Moreover, there are plenty of ORM applicants, like myself, who will be the first in their family to become an MD. Shouldn't these obstacles be considered for people of all backgrounds? Why do they only factor in for certain groups? I worked my ass off to come this far and I pretty much did it by myself because I didn't have anyone hooking me up with shadowing opportunities or interesting volunteering programs.
2) Who is to say that ORMs don't work with underserved populations such as Hispanics and Blacks? I know plenty of ORM doctors who have a great relationship with URM groups and go out of their way to serve them, even if these patients have severe financial limitations. The whole idea that ORMs won't help those truly in need is ridiculous and unsubstantiated.
3) Boosting URMs who wouldn't necessarily get in if they weren't URMs seems to severely ****** the whole equal rights movement. If everyone is equal, then no one should be getting a boost. AA and race based admissions seem to validate the idea that certain groups aren't as able and I think that does a huge disservice to everybody. I think URMs are just as intelligent and capable as ORMs, so I don't quite understand the need for factoring in race.
4) I hate the idea that I have to consider my race as an obstacle just because a large proportion of them are successful in this country. I think it's BS that I have to pay for their ethnic group's success in this country. Race should not provide anybody with an advantage or disadvantage.
I could go on and express my ideas on this subject, but at the end of the day, it's pointless. Sitting there and thinking about this is absolutely pointless b/c it's not going to get any ORMs out of the crappy situation we're in. All we can do is hope that we don't get completely screwed in this biased process.
I didn't realize how much race would factor into admissions until I applied this year and started reading SDN. After realizing this, I think it's crap that race is such a huge factor especially since many of the assumptions that go into race based admissions are faulty.
1) Having immigrant parents who have NO IDEA what the process is like in this country is an obstacle that many ORM Asians face. Moreover, there are plenty of ORM applicants, like myself, who will be the first in their family to become an MD. Shouldn't these obstacles be considered for people of all backgrounds? Why do they only factor in for certain groups? I worked my ass off to come this far and I pretty much did it by myself because I didn't have anyone hooking me up with shadowing opportunities or interesting volunteering programs.
2) Who is to say that ORMs don't work with underserved populations such as Hispanics and Blacks? I know plenty of ORM doctors who have a great relationship with URM groups and go out of their way to serve them, even if these patients have severe financial limitations. The whole idea that ORMs won't help those truly in need is ridiculous and unsubstantiated.
3) Boosting URMs who wouldn't necessarily get in if they weren't URMs seems to severely ****** the whole equal rights movement. If everyone is equal, then no one should be getting a boost. AA and race based admissions seem to validate the idea that certain groups aren't as able and I think that does a huge disservice to everybody. I think URMs are just as intelligent and capable as ORMs, so I don't quite understand the need for factoring in race.
4) I hate the idea that I have to consider my race as an obstacle just because a large proportion of them are successful in this country. I think it's BS that I have to pay for their ethnic group's success in this country. Race should not provide anybody with an advantage or disadvantage.
I could go on and express my ideas on this subject, but at the end of the day, it's pointless. Sitting there and thinking about this is absolutely pointless b/c it's not going to get any ORMs out of the crappy situation we're in. All we can do is hope that we don't get completely screwed in this biased process.
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👍
The ignorance on this thread A M A Z E S me
I can't wait to be classmates with you people 
How dare you call us ignorant for voicing our opinions. You know nothing about what we've experience as Asians in the US, and you have no right to say that your hardships are more significant than ours. You wouldn't be singing the same tune if you were in our shoes.
I totally agree with you. Ignorant? I don't think we're being ignorant by expressing the flaws of race-based admissions and the reasons for our issues with this kind of admissions process. Just because we don't agree with your opinion doesn't mean that we're ignorant. In fact, by calling us ignorant, you're making yourself appear ignorant since you're demonstrating your inability to hear different opinions without criticizing them and understand other people's trials and tribulations.
🤣🤣🤣🤣
again....OMG...my stomach is hurting!!!!!! stop already please
somebody make it stop
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I first posted this question almost 3 years ago, I've updated the answer.
Q: If no URM were admitted to medical school, what proportion of those non-URM who do not matriculate in a given year (are not admitted to any school) would still be without an offer of admission?
A:
About 83%
There were 42,231 applicants to medical school and 33,984 were white or asian. Of the 18,086 who were admitted to medical school, 2,945 were other than white or asian. So, if we limited the applicant pool to 33,984 white or asian applicants and admitted 18,036 then we'd still have 15,848 white & asian applicants with no place to go.
Q: If no URM were admitted to medical school, what proportion of those non-URM who do not matriculate in a given year (are not admitted to any school) would still be without an offer of admission?
A:
About 83%
There were 42,231 applicants to medical school and 33,984 were white or asian. Of the 18,086 who were admitted to medical school, 2,945 were other than white or asian. So, if we limited the applicant pool to 33,984 white or asian applicants and admitted 18,036 then we'd still have 15,848 white & asian applicants with no place to go.
data shows that AA does actually stimulate to go and service the inner city. AA has been around for a while, w/ little scrutiny from the legislators (that you voted in). some states have tackled it, but those states really do not present a great amount of the groups we are talking about in this forum.
I am an ORM, just like you, that immigrated here. I can tell you that it takes time, effort and money to get to this country and become a citizen. Most people who come here from asia are usually in the higher income levels of their country. I said most. I am sorry if you are not one of them. I do believe that, we may, see movements to tackle financial factors in the future.
And finally, let's be real. the amount of blacks and hispanics applying are not comparable to the amount of asians and indians. asians make up very small amount of our population, yet take a high number of seats in medical school. Anyone but ORMs applying to medical school would say that that is not fair. We want our services to be competent, but also to be a reflection of our communities. Take a moment to think what if this was your native country. I remember going to a baseball game in Japan and saw them bench a black baseball player because he was about to get 6 hits (hurting the baseball team).
I understand that it seems unfair to individuals at times, but, as a country, we need to stimulate our economy by targeting all groups and areas. AA does a good job of diversifying. If you just ask people a few questions, you will see why it is necessary. No matter what you think, Asians and caucasians really do not get excited about going to work in inner cities. Living in Philadelphia, this has been pretty obvious to me. You can also see the amount of "hate" Temple gets on SDN just for being in a "bad' area.
Diversity - specifically the potential of all groups to succeed - is one of the reasons that attracted myparents here. Qualified applicants all get in one time or another and I kinda like it the way it is.
I never said any of this.
Ummmm I'm sorry where did I call anyone ignorant? I don't think anybody is ignorant... I think what you are saying is ignorant 😀 Big difference.
I would never call another person ignorant, but I will tell you that some of the "opinions" expressed in this thread are beyond dumb. If you could take a moment to look past your own selfish needs, then you might be able to understand that.
So I'm just gonna laugh in the corner with Rice 🤣 Cry me a river people!
lets understand that the amount of people (esp asians) applying to med schools/colleges without some success is really really minute in comparison to the entire population. our legislation should target the major sectors (sending significant minority groups lagging in higher education/employment) to make the most significant improvements. This, "unfortunately for us ORMS", flows down to med school profiles.
really not a big deal. let's take this bullet and keep it moving.
really not a big deal. let's take this bullet and keep it moving.
I actually plan on working in an urban area as a physician, but I do get what you're saying. But there are many URMs who end up working in the posh areas of a city so I just don't think it makes sense to predict who's going to work with certain groups.
I'm grateful that I'm not poor, but at the same time being middle class and having immigrant parents lead to a whole set of obstacles that aren't sufficiently recognized. I just don't believe in expressing all the problems I've dealt with, but that doesn't mean they didn't affect me.
A lot of the points you mentioned are valid and I understand, but something needs to change. I just hope that some of the inequities of this process are alleviated by increasing the number of seats in medical schools.
In any case, I appreciate your post b/c it was respectful, dignified, and non-inflammatory. It's rare to find such posts on topics like this one. 🙂
I'm grateful that I'm not poor, but at the same time being middle class and having immigrant parents lead to a whole set of obstacles that aren't sufficiently recognized. I just don't believe in expressing all the problems I've dealt with, but that doesn't mean they didn't affect me.
A lot of the points you mentioned are valid and I understand, but something needs to change. I just hope that some of the inequities of this process are alleviated by increasing the number of seats in medical schools.
In any case, I appreciate your post b/c it was respectful, dignified, and non-inflammatory. It's rare to find such posts on topics like this one. 🙂
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You know, I don't really get why your post is so caustic. Our opinions are dumb? Oh yeah, you're not criticizing anybody 🙄
Look beyond my selfish needs? That was a pretty unnecessary and judgmental thing to say. I don't really get why you're so hostile about ORM's opinions. I get that things worked out really well for you, but you don't have to insult people who are struggling for a similar happy ending.
Look beyond my selfish needs? That was a pretty unnecessary and judgmental thing to say. I don't really get why you're so hostile about ORM's opinions. I get that things worked out really well for you, but you don't have to insult people who are struggling for a similar happy ending.
Why not just beat out everyone, then you wont have to cry about it?🙄
You are right, numbers don't matter. However, competency != excellence. Competence is merely a legal term meaning that they are legally practicing medicine, it doesn't mean that they are any good at it. I don't want a doctor that was barely deemed competent to be my doctor. You may accept it, but I don't. Like I said, there are plenty of doctors that are barely competent and practicing that I would NEVER want to send my family or patients to.
There are other factors that make a good physician, but they cannot make up for lack of medical knowledge.
I agree there may be a few incompetent people who manage to become board certified, but in my experience they're definitely not in the majority. I'm not there yet, but I'd find it hard to believe that an individual could go through 4 years of med school, X years of residency/fellowship, and pass pertinent board exams without acquiring the knowledge to treat/diagnose ~90% of the routine cases presented in his/her specialty.....There's a reason why there are so many hoops to jump through to become a doctor, the only one URM's get a significant boost on is admission to med school, which is just the start. AFAIK there isn't a "URM Pass" threshold for passing a board exam. If you don't believe the board exams are adequate guages of medical knowledge, then what is?
Why do so many ORM's send so many more applications compared to URM's?
and? what's the significance of your comment? sure, that's tough luck and it sucks that everyone with good stats doesn't get in, but there are more qualified applicants than seats. why must we make urms the scapegoat here? its not as if only the asians and whites with the highest stats get in. there are people from every race with mediocre # who get in, and there are people with solid #'s that get rejected. there will always be people with good stats that get rejected. acceptance isn't simply a numbers game; great numbers gets you looks, everything else gets you accepted.
once you are deemed intellectually competent, the other parts of your app get significantly more important! i understand where you are coming from, but please realize # do not entitle someone an acceptance. if a med school wants you, and you have shown enough potential and desire/passion to reasonably believe you can get the MD, you get accepted. it's as simple as that.
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and? what's the significance of your comment? sure, that's tough luck and it sucks that everyone with good stats doesn't get in, but there are more qualified applicants than seats. why must we make urms the scapegoat here? its not as if only the asians and whites with the highest stats get in. there are people from every race with mediocre # who get in, and there are people with solid #'s that get rejected. there will always be people with good stats that get rejected. acceptance isn't simply a numbers game; great numbers gets you looks, everything else gets you accepted.
once you are deemed intellectually competent, the other parts of your app get significantly more important! i understand where you are coming from, but please realize # do not entitle someone an acceptance. if a med school wants you, and you have shown enough potential and desire/passion to reasonably believe you can get the MD, you get accepted. its as simple as that.
because more ORM's are compelled/pushed to pursue a career in medicine? Most URM applicants are outliers in their respective communities; if you ask a group of URM children what they want to be when they grow up, "doctor" wouldn't be a typical choice. And the few that say "doctor" are sometimes made to believe that it is not a realistic choice.
Exactly! Seems like all these threads somehow turn into people whining about how their "friend" didn't get accepted because their spot was given to a URM...
Seems like if their "friend" were smarter and more qualified then anything resembling AA would be a moot point.
Instead of crying about what a great injustice you perceive this to be, work to either change it, or improve your application so you don't need to worry about it.
Because they have to due to the competition for ORM spots. On top of that, most ORMs live in CA, which further exacerbates the situation.
