Future of Rad Onc with therapy advances

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I'm interested in pursuing Radiation Oncology, and was hoping to hear some thoughts on what the future will be like for Radiation Oncologists with some of the advancements in cancer therapy coming out (immunotherapy, for example). From my naive perspective, it seems like the future is pretty uncertain.

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I'm interested in pursuing Radiation Oncology, and was hoping to hear some thoughts on what the future will be like for Radiation Oncologists with some of the advancements in cancer therapy coming out (immunotherapy, for example). From my naive perspective, it seems like the future is pretty uncertain.

I switched from Rad Onc to Neurology.

Rad Onc - believe it or not - has one of the worst job market along with the lowest starting salary. Technological advances has made work much less - yet new residencies are popping up everywhere. The future is gloom - just go to the rad onc board - nobody is happy there except for old private practice docs that have made partner.
 
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I switched from Rad Onc to Neurology.

Rad Onc - believe it or not - has one of the worst job market along with the lowest starting salary. Technological advances has made work much less - yet new residencies are popping up everywhere. The future is gloom - just go to the rad onc board - nobody is happy there except for old private practice docs that have made partner.
Were you already in residency when you switched? I’ve heard about the job market and that you can’t be picky about location. But if starting salary is so low, why is Radonc usually listed as one of the highest per hour reimbursed specialties?
 
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I did a research fellowship (gap year between M3 and M4) before I changed my mind. I was urged by my mentors and numerous faculty and resident in rad onc to not go into it. Unless you can match into prestigious programs like UTSW, you will not have the connections to find a desirable job. Even if you are lucky to find a job in a semi-urban area - the starting salary is very low (around 200K) - the lowest of all other specialties except for maybe peds. Why is the average salary so high on MGMA? Because 70-80% of the work force is still run by old/senior established private practice docs - given the huge leaps in technology that have made various procedures much more efficient - they now have to work more for less. If you are a young residency grad - it is nearly impossible to break into these lucrative practice given the low demand and high saturation.
 
1) LOL that UTSW is a 'prestigious' program. It's good but that isn't the one I'd go with as 'prestigious'.

2) The job market crunch is very real. If you have geographic limitations, Rad Onc is likely not the field for you as a medical student. Job market may be so bad 5-10 years from now that fellowships will be mandatory (like Radiology)

3) Starting salary of 200k is laughably low and would not be what any grad with a decent business sense or open geographic abilities would be earning. Even in oversaturated areas you'll pull at least 250k minimum starting. I haven't seen a true attending job that had a starting salary of 200k, just some fellowship-level nonsense from big academic solutions.

In regards to the OPs question - It's honestly the opposite - immunotherapy is making people live way longer than they would normally. This is leading to use of more radiation in certain situations (look up oligometastatic and oligoprogressive disease, primarily in lung cancer). There's a full Rad Onc forum with a FAQ and stuff if you're interested further, but we see a fair number of patients who are still alive 3, 5, 7, up to 10 years out from their diagnosis of "metastatic x cancer". The main issues in regards to radiation utilization is the explosion of hypofractionation (basically less treatments per patient) in the most common cancers (breast and prostate)
 
1) LOL that UTSW is a 'prestigious' program. It's good but that isn't the one I'd go with as 'prestigious'.

2) The job market crunch is very real. If you have geographic limitations, Rad Onc is likely not the field for you as a medical student. Job market may be so bad 5-10 years from now that fellowships will be mandatory (like Radiology)

3) Starting salary of 200k is laughably low and would not be what any grad with a decent business sense or open geographic abilities would be earning. Even in oversaturated areas you'll pull at least 250k minimum starting. I haven't seen a true attending job that had a starting salary of 200k, just some fellowship-level nonsense from big academic solutions.

In regards to the OPs question - It's honestly the opposite - immunotherapy is making people live way longer than they would normally. This is leading to use of more radiation in certain situations (look up oligometastatic and oligoprogressive disease, primarily in lung cancer). There's a full Rad Onc forum with a FAQ and stuff if you're interested further, but we see a fair number of patients who are still alive 3, 5, 7, up to 10 years out from their diagnosis of "metastatic x cancer". The main issues in regards to radiation utilization is the explosion of hypofractionation (basically less treatments per patient) in the most common cancers (breast and prostate)
Not sure that i understood your Point#2. Did you mean job market will be "so bad" or did you mean to say "not so bad" 5-10 years from now with upcoming fellowships becoming mandatory?
 
Not sure that i understood your Point#2. Did you mean job market will be "so bad" or did you mean to say "not so bad" 5-10 years from now with upcoming fellowships becoming mandatory?

Meant 'so bad'. Currently, fellowships are relatively rare amongst graduating rad onc residents. Given the prospect of continuous oversupply, we may be following a road of pathology/radiology at this time.
 
Job market may be so bad 5-10 years from now that fellowships will be mandatory (like Radiology)

Not sure where you got this from. The recent-ish switch to universal fellowships in radiology was due to the healthcare system demand for 24/7 coverage, and therefore an urgent need for cheap off-hours labor. Had very little (if anything) to do with the job market. And for those med students reading this, the radiology job market is significantly improved from several years prior but will invariably oscillate as it always has and always will.

I have nothing intelligent to say about the remainder of your post, as I know nothing about rad onc. Just didn't want any med students perusing through the forum to garner any black pearls.
 
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Meant 'so bad'. Currently, fellowships are relatively rare amongst graduating rad onc residents. Given the prospect of continuous oversupply, we may be following a road of pathology/radiology at this time.

Radiology job market is currently way better than Rad Onc. I would say Rad Onc is similiar to that of Pathology.
 
Not sure where you got this from. The recent-ish switch to universal fellowships in radiology was due to the healthcare system demand for 24/7 coverage, and therefore an urgent need for cheap off-hours labor. Had very little (if anything) to do with the job market. And for those med students reading this, the radiology job market is significantly improved from several years prior but will invariably oscillate as it always has and always will.

I have nothing intelligent to say about the remainder of your post, as I know nothing about rad onc. Just didn't want any med students perusing through the forum to garner any black pearls.

Sure, but why would graduates of radiology programs do fellowships if they were able to get high quality jobs without a fellowship?

Extending training beyond the standard 5-year (IIRC) residency for radiology in order to obtain gainful employment, is by my definition, a bad job market. If the job market was good, radiology grads would not be mandated to do a fellowship. Those interested in doing general DR would just go get a job. Again, this is my personal experience and I'm willing to accept that it may be incorrect, and maybe doing a fellowship from graduating a radiology program isn't a (near) 100% occurence like I've seen. I'm assuming you're a Rads resident - what percentage of graduates go on to get a fellowship? Why do those grads go on to fellowship rather than just getting an attending job?
 
Sure, but why would graduates of radiology programs do fellowships if they were able to get high quality jobs without a fellowship?

Extending training beyond the standard 5-year (IIRC) residency for radiology in order to obtain gainful employment, is by my definition, a bad job market. If the job market was good, radiology grads would not be mandated to do a fellowship. Those interested in doing general DR would just go get a job. Again, this is my personal experience and I'm willing to accept that it may be incorrect, and maybe doing a fellowship from graduating a radiology program isn't a (near) 100% occurence like I've seen. I'm assuming you're a Rads resident - what percentage of graduates go on to get a fellowship? Why do those grads go on to fellowship rather than just getting an attending job?

Your assumption that fellowship = poor job market is incorrect.

General Neurology has a wide open job market - undeniably the best of all specialties - yet a good majority of neurologists pursue a fellowship and delay a guaranteed 300+K earning. Why? Life is simply better and work more enjoyable the more specialized you become. I have a interest in Oncology - so why see all the boring stroke and epilepsy patients when I can become a full time neuro-oncologist after fellowahip?
 
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Not sure where you got this from. The recent-ish switch to universal fellowships in radiology was due to the healthcare system demand for 24/7 coverage, and therefore an urgent need for cheap off-hours labor. Had very little (if anything) to do with the job market. And for those med students reading this, the radiology job market is significantly improved from several years prior but will invariably oscillate as it always has and always will.

I have nothing intelligent to say about the remainder of your post, as I know nothing about rad onc. Just didn't want any med students perusing through the forum to garner any black pearls.

I think the job market for radiology is improving slightly but could turn on a dime. From attendings that I have talked to, the reason for fellowships was due to the bad job market in prior years where people needed fellowships if they even thought of staying in a desirable area to work.
 
Your assumption that fellowship = poor job market is incorrect.

General Neurology has a wide open job market - undeniably the best of all specialties - yet a good majority of neurologists pursue a fellowship and delay a guaranteed 300+K earning. Why? Life is simply better and work more enjoyable the more specialized you become. I have a interest in Oncology - so why see all the boring stroke and epilepsy patients when I can become a full time neuro-oncologist after fellowahip?

Yes, but if a Neurologist wanted to finish residency and go get a job without a fellowship as a general neurologist, they would have that option open to them, correct? What I'm asking is do radiology graduates have that option open to them. My understanding is mostly 'no', that you essentially have to be fellowship trained to get a decent job.
 
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Yes, but if a Neurologist wanted to finish residency and go get a job without a fellowship as a general neurologist, they would have that option open to them, correct? What I'm asking is do radiology graduates have that option open to them. My understanding is mostly 'no', that you essentially have to be fellowship trained to get a decent job.

Yes - but you can't correlate getting fellowship with poor job market like you did with DR. Good majority of neurologist will do a fellowship despite the excellent lucrative job market.
 
Sure, but why would graduates of radiology programs do fellowships if they were able to get high quality jobs without a fellowship?

Around the same time (not coincidentally) as the demand for 24/7 coverage the ABR restructured the timeline for the board exams. Radiology residency is 4 years. Residents take the first half of the exam (the "core") in June of their 3rd year. The ABR modified the requirements such that residents are not eligible to sit for the second half (the "certifying exam") until 18 months later (15 months + 3 month turnaround time for scoring). This conveniently renders all graduating residents "board eligible" rather than "board certified" for 6 months after residency. Employers predictably don't want to assume the liability/uncertainty. Residents were therefore "encouraged" to complete fellowships in the meanwhile.
 
Perception of fellowships in radiology is very different from those in rad onc. In radiology, due to the breadth of the field, it becomes pretty much nearly impossible to learn all the nuances of a specific field (e.g. neuroradiology, musculoskeletal, IR, etc.) in a standard 4-year residency. This is why you commonly hear of orthopods demanding reads from MSK fellowship-trained attendings, neurosurgeons wanting reads from neurorads, advanced IR procedures pretty much only being done by IR-trained attendings, etc. However, in rad onc, it seems that fellowships are usually seen as a way to compensate for a perceived deficit in a specific part of rad onc training, and not always viewed as necessary after good rad onc residency training. Even with the improving rads job market, I don't see rads fellowships ever going away, as there is demand for subspecialists even in imaging that will not significantly change with the job market.
 
Yes - but you can't correlate getting fellowship with poor job market like you did with DR. Good majority of neurologist will do a fellowship despite the excellent lucrative job market.

Again, my point is that radiology residents do not have the capability to get a job without undergoing a fellowship. This is similar in Pathology as well. My conclusion was not as simple as "graduates going into fellowships = crap job market".

Sievert_fever corroborates my point. "Employers predictably don't want to assume the liability/uncertainty." Radiation oncologists who are board eligible get hired all the time. I guess if you can pick from all board certified people then so be it, but IMO it's not a good thing for the job market to force an extra year of training on people.

the above post is interesting. I could see orthopods demanding reads from MSK fellowship-trained attendings being relevant at big academic institutions from a Radiology perspective, but I highly doubt that's the case outside of the ivory tower of academics. That level of specialization is also in place in Rad Onc in academic facilities (without fellowship training, just personal interest on the part of the oncologist). Certainly not so in the majority of community hospitals.

Again, to be clear, I'm not talking about IR when I discuss radiology fellowships. I'm glad DR fellowships are felt to be educational. I'm just not seeing a point where someone is able to tell me, "There are radiology graduates who are able to get jobs without doing fellowship." If you can't get a job as an attending when you would be eligible for working without supervision, to me, that's a problematic job market. Radiation Oncology is potentially reaching that same point, where fellowships become more and more common prior to obtaining gainful employment.
 
Again, my point is that radiology residents do not have the capability to get a job without undergoing a fellowship. This is similar in Pathology as well. My conclusion was not as simple as "graduates going into fellowships = crap job market".

Sievert_fever corroborates my point. "Employers predictably don't want to assume the liability/uncertainty." Radiation oncologists who are board eligible get hired all the time. I guess if you can pick from all board certified people then so be it, but IMO it's not a good thing for the job market to force an extra year of training on people.

the above post is interesting. I could see orthopods demanding reads from MSK fellowship-trained attendings being relevant at big academic institutions from a Radiology perspective, but I highly doubt that's the case outside of the ivory tower of academics. That level of specialization is also in place in Rad Onc in academic facilities (without fellowship training, just personal interest on the part of the oncologist). Certainly not so in the majority of community hospitals.

Again, to be clear, I'm not talking about IR when I discuss radiology fellowships. I'm glad DR fellowships are felt to be educational. I'm just not seeing a point where someone is able to tell me, "There are radiology graduates who are able to get jobs without doing fellowship." If you can't get a job as an attending when you would be eligible for working without supervision, to me, that's a problematic job market. Radiation Oncology is potentially reaching that same point, where fellowships become more and more common prior to obtaining gainful employment.

There are radiology residents who can get a job without fellowship. You CAN get a job without fellowship.

The issue though, is why? After 4 yrs of rad training, I am definitely seeing the difference of myself and a MSK trained guy in MSK skill.

With all due respect, there is a larger body of knowledge in radiology than radonc. This is why fellowship is mandatory in rads but optional and denotes a weaker candidate in radonc. I suspect similar situation is seen in path.
 
Fair enough. Thanks for the insight! No doubt IMO that the breadth of knowledge in radiology is more than rad onc. You guys gotta deal with all that annoying benign stuff on a day to day basis too.

I guess every (or almost all) rads resident wants to focus on just one part of the body (if they're sticking with DR prmiarily?)
 
Fair enough. Thanks for the insight! No doubt IMO that the breadth of knowledge in radiology is more than rad onc. You guys gotta deal with all that annoying benign stuff on a day to day basis too.

I guess every (or almost all) rads resident wants to focus on just one part of the body (if they're sticking with DR prmiarily?)

Actually the real deal in PP is for folks to act as a competent generalist for most subspecialties, and leave subspecialty/tough cases for people with specific subspecialty training.

My goal as an IR is to be a competent generalist, and recognize disease on all modalities and make sure they get referred to a specialist.
 
This thread really went off the rails. A couple things - deciding to apply to neurology as opposed to radiation oncology while a medical student does not mean "switching from rad onc to neurology". Neurology salary is not comparable to radiation oncology. Radiation oncology 10th percentile and median salaries are 260 and 499 k respectively according to 2016 MGMA data compared to 186 and 269 for neurology. Radiation oncology departments are frequently large revenue and profit sources for the hospital despite these large salaries, neurology departments often lose money despite their low salaries.

It is very unlikely fellowships will be required for radiation oncology as most private practice jobs require you to treat all or most types of cancer. It is not a specialty where you can require sub-specialists except at large academic centers, unlike radiology where the sub-specialists can be off site. The problem with the job market in radiation oncology is a problem of over-supply not under demand. The demand for radiation continues to rise (slowly) and the demand will likely increase due to immunotherapy and the synergistic effects of radiation. Though hypofractionation is applying downward pressure, more people will continue to develop cancer in the future due to longer lives and better treatments for non-oncology mortality. Unfortunately (for graduates - or fortunately for those requiring radiation), the powers that be chose to more than double the number of residency positions since the early 2000s (177 positions in 2017 vs 81 in 2001). The vast majority of graduates do get jobs and they do pay very well, though most jobs are not in the graduates preferred geographic location (PMID: 26194674). You have to make your own choice regarding whether to pursue rad onc - it is a desirable field with good hours, salary and a meaningful and rewarding job. The oversupply will likely continue for the foreseeable future but mid-tier and above programs continue to place their residents well.

Reported Neurology salary is artifically low since a large proportion of grads choose to work in academia and participate in research, and also a large proportion choose to not see many patients due to specialization.

If you want a job in a desirable area I guarantee you Neurology makes more than Rad Onc. Graduates from a mid-tier program in the SouthEast (my home program) - all was given multiple offers of at least 350K STARTING as a PP general neurologists in urban areas like Atlanta, New Orleans, Miami, Orlando..etc. But if you specialize and works as faculty in a prestigious academic institution your salary offer falls to around 200K or so.
 
of course the data shows this way - you need to realize 70-80% of rad onc doctors are established senior partners. We are talking about prospects for fresh residency grads. Whats more, many of these high paying rad onc jobs are in undesirable rural areas that no Neurologist will go despite the equally high offer.

I guarantee you as a fresh grad - neurology will offer much better prospects than rad onc.
 
Having a high median salary doesn’t mean much if getting a job in a place where 90% of people want to live is unattainable.

Look at pathology, has a median salary that is higher than many specialties. Yet, only one third of the spots are filled by USMDs.
 
of course the data shows this way - you need to realize 70-80% of rad onc doctors are established senior partners. We are talking about prospects for fresh residency grads. Whats more, many of these high paying rad onc jobs are in undesirable rural areas that no Neurologist will go despite the equally high offer.

I guarantee you as a fresh grad - neurology will offer much better prospects than rad onc.
lol dude, it's ok to like neurology and everything, but no need to dump on rad onc like this, especially when what you're saying with respect to rad onc is not accurate
 
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This thread really went off the rails. A couple things - deciding to apply to neurology as opposed to radiation oncology while a medical student does not mean "switching from rad onc to neurology". Neurology salary is not comparable to radiation oncology. Radiation oncology 10th percentile and median salaries are 260 and 499 k respectively according to 2016 MGMA data compared to 186 and 269 for neurology. Radiation oncology departments are frequently large revenue and profit sources for the hospital despite these large salaries, neurology departments often lose money despite their low salaries.

It is very unlikely fellowships will be required for radiation oncology as most private practice jobs require you to treat all or most types of cancer. It is not a specialty where you can require sub-specialists except at large academic centers, unlike radiology where the sub-specialists can be off site. The problem with the job market in radiation oncology is a problem of over-supply not under demand. The demand for radiation continues to rise (slowly) and the demand will likely increase due to immunotherapy and the synergistic effects of radiation. Though hypofractionation is applying downward pressure, more people will continue to develop cancer in the future due to longer lives and better treatments for non-oncology mortality. Unfortunately (for graduates - or fortunately for those requiring radiation), the powers that be chose to more than double the number of residency positions since the early 2000s (177 positions in 2017 vs 81 in 2001). The vast majority of graduates do get jobs and they do pay very well, though most jobs are not in the graduates preferred geographic location (PMID: 26194674). You have to make your own choice regarding whether to pursue rad onc - it is a desirable field with good hours, salary and a meaningful and rewarding job. The oversupply will likely continue for the foreseeable future but mid-tier and above programs continue to place their residents well.

Yea, I see everyone's point. It's just scary to commit years and years of training into one specialty where there's a real possibility that you might not even get a job...and all that specialized training isn't transferable.
 
It seems like to me that due to a shortage in neurologist, their salary is probably being subsidized in a lot of centers.
 
I thought a lot about the future of various fields, including rad onc, prior to choosing rad onc in med school. Now, at the mid-point of residency, I can see that a lot of my big-picture worries about the field were wrong.

The big-picture view of the future of the field depends on two related factors: (1) job market forces such as supply/demand which are likely to ebb and flow over the next 40 years, and (2) fundamental changes in how cancer is treated.

First, addressing the job market forces, it is true that right now there has been a recent increase in the number of residents, and if you read the rad onc board, there is some (anecdotal) evidence that this increase has led to a supply-demand imbalance in the job market. There are also some recent changes in RT demand, such as hypofractionation for prostate and breast (hypofractionation means less fractions for a course of radiation to provide the same clinical benefit--radiation oncologists are generally paid per fraction so this means less money in your pocket per patient). These are important considerations, especially for current residents or recent grads, but in my opinion these are relatively minor job market fluctuations in the grand scheme of a 40+ year career in the field. Graduating from a below-average program and wanting to be in a desirable location could be tough due to these factors, but the majority of radiation oncologists will have plenty of work to do and will enjoy a good lifestyle/income. And while there are certain situations where RT is being used less or for shorter fractions, we are in the midst of several emerging areas of RT, including stereotactic treatment in general, which is reimbursed very highly. And in particular, certain areas that might really increase the amount of volume of RT are lung SBRT for early stage lung cancers (lung cancer screening is just starting to pick up), SRS for brain mets, and SBRT for oligometastatic/oligoprogressive disease. In general, I think as the supply/demand balance shifts, the very smart physicians in our field will figure out new things to do and treat, as has happened in many fields within medicine for decades.

Second, (and more to the point of the OP's question), fundamental changes in how cancer is managed are trending toward increased use of radiation therapy. At one point I was concerned that machine learning could make contouring/RT planning obsolete, and at another point I was concerned that immunotherapy or whatever next big systemic therapy there is could make RT obsolete altogether. Both of these are likely untrue. First, contouring is a small part of our workflow, and improvements in contouring efficiency would not change the overall patient volume, in the same way that being able to dictate your notes in primary care would not change the number of PCP's we need--the ultimate demand is driven by the number of patients. Second, better systemic therapy increases the need for RT. We are treating more and more metastatic disease because patients are doing very well on long-term immunotherapy or targeted therapy. Often, this "palliative" treatment is done stereotactically, so requires a lot of technical effort/expertise and is reimbursed at a high rate.

Finally, to address the point above about the salaries in MGMA not being representative, I am just a resident so cannot say for sure, but my anecdotal experience from talking to the senior residents in our (well-respected) program and neighboring programs is that starting salaries are typically ~$300,000 (possibly slightly lower in PP), and all of the residents I know who went into PP were on partnership tracks with generally a doubling of salary at the partner stage. It is true that your salary can increase a lot if you become partner, but it is not true that the older docs are keeping the younger ones out from doing this (again, in my limited anecdotal experience).
 
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