Garbage LORs :c

[throwmeaway]

Creating a throwaway account because this sucks.

I'm applying to post-DVM training program(s). This is where the importance of LORs really kicks in. Unfortunately, I made a terrible first impression at my new position, based on bad advice - or me badly implementing bad advice? - not that it matters.

Despite my best efforts to salvage things, my LORs this cycle are going to be awful. At best, I have lukewarm letters from (mostly) junior faculty/staff who don't know me well, because the senior faculty either straight up refused to write letters or warned me they would write bad ones. The only senior who said they'd write me a good letter backed out because of personal commitments.

I worry that my career is over, because even in future application cycles, people will call up my current program.

I just don't know what to do at this point. My field is so competitive, I doubt I'll match anywhere. It sucks that seven years of good work can be nuked by a bad two weeks, personality incompatibilities, and bad timing (seniors not present on service with me +/- no cases for me to work up, so no ability to speak to my skills).

I'm so discouraged. I don't know what to do. Thanks for listening.

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[LetItSnow]

Creating a throwaway account because this sucks.

I'm applying to post-DVM training program(s). This is where the importance of LORs really kicks in. Unfortunately, I made a terrible first impression at my new position, based on bad advice - or me badly implementing bad advice? - not that it matters.

Despite my best efforts to salvage things, my LORs this cycle are going to be awful. At best, I have lukewarm letters from (mostly) junior faculty/staff who don't know me well, because the senior faculty either straight up refused to write letters or warned me they would write bad ones. The only senior who said they'd write me a good letter backed out because of personal commitments.

I worry that my career is over, because even in future application cycles, people will call up my current program.

I just don't know what to do at this point. My field is so competitive, I doubt I'll match anywhere. It sucks that seven years of good work can be nuked by a bad two weeks, personality incompatibilities, and bad timing (seniors not present on service with me +/- no cases for me to work up, so no ability to speak to my skills).

I'm so discouraged. I don't know what to do. Thanks for listening.

Well. I see a whole lot of "not my fault!" and not much taking personal responsibility.... I guess my recommendation would be to quit blaming others and start taking responsibility for your role in developing good contacts with people who can give good recommendations. Nobody owes you one.

I mean, look at your post:

1) It was bad advice!

2) Seniors weren't present with me!

3) No cases for me!

4) Personal incompatibilities!

5) They backed out!

How about: "I didn't do a good job at making a good impression"?

I mean, I don't know your situation, but.... sounds like your best bet is another go-around at an internship or whatever, and take responsibility for making it a better experience. I am sure your career is still salvageable.

 

[throwmeaway]

Well, you're right, it's 100% my fault that I made a bad impression. I didn't listen to my instincts when I should have, and instead I put too much stock in what I had been told to do. That's on me - that's my failure. And whether I got bad advice or not, I'm the one who fell on my own face. I'm perfectly capable of failing with or without help. I did not intend to say that I was not responsible for my failure to make a good impression. Someone more charming and adept could probably have turned it all around, no matter how dire the situation.

But regardless, some things are so...up to chance in this match process. Like, if you're on the service of your dreams and the seniors are in another country for those two weeks? Better luck next year, I guess. It's alarming how capricious it can be.

I know you don't know my situation. Perhaps you'd condemn me less if you did? Either way, I'm just working hard and trying to do the best for my patients and clients. It's all I can do. I have opportunities here that not everyone gets, so I'm trying to focus on that. But it's really hard to feel like I've poisoned any chance at my dream career.

 

[dyachei]

I think you're being hyperbolic. Your career isn't over, it just might not be taking the trajectory you want. You're still going to presumably graduate with a dvm. You can still work. Heck, you can even apply after graduating.

 

[throwmeaway]

I think you're being hyperbolic. Your career isn't over, it just might not be taking the trajectory you want. You're still going to presumably graduate with a dvm. You can still work. Heck, you can even apply after graduating.

I already graduated...but thanks anyway for the encouragement.

 

[dyachei]

I already graduated...but thanks anyway for the encouragement.

OK, so? that still doesn't mean your career is over. It means you need to find another way to get the LORs you want and it might take extra time.

If you want to roll over, give up, and complain about how unfair it is, you're not going to make any progress. If this career path means a lot to you, you'll pick yourself back up and keep trying.

 

[throwmeaway]

I didn't say I was giving up. I'm not giving up. I just worry that regardless, I'll never succeed.

I'll keep working hard and trying and applying. It's all I can do. I am just feeling so discouraged right now. Maybe this is the wrong forum to talk about it.

 

[LetItSnow]

But regardless, some things are so...up to chance in this match process. Like, if you're on the service of your dreams and the seniors are in another country for those two weeks? Better luck next year, I guess. It's alarming how capricious it can be.

I know you don't know my situation. Perhaps you'd condemn me less if you did?

I didn't condemn you; don't put words in my mouth. In fact, I very clearly said I didn't think your career is over. So if you want to put words in my mouth and wallow in your own misery, that's - like the impression you made to people who could have written LORs - on you.

You're absolutely right - a lot of things in life are up to chance. That's just the universe.

But the impression you make on people who you might need to help further your career? That's on you.

I very much doubt you've permanently, beyond-all-hope, poisoned your career. You've just had a setback. Make a plan to move forward and attack it.

 

[LetItSnow]

I didn't say I was giving up. I'm not giving up. I just worry that regardless, I'll never succeed.

I'll keep working hard and trying and applying. It's all I can do. I am just feeling so discouraged right now. Maybe this is the wrong forum to talk about it.

If you want warm fuzzies .. it might be. Or you should just wait a bit and the warm fuzzy people will be along. There are a healthy mixture of folks around.

But I just think that the mixture of feeling discouraged AND blaming everything but yourself goes hand in hand. Take responsibility. Make a plan. Move forward.

That's the quickest route out of discouragement.

It's a lesson that I've had to learn over and over. Probably have to be reminded of it again in the future. You're not the only one.

 

[throwmeaway]

But I just think that the mixture of feeling discouraged AND blaming everything but yourself goes hand in hand. Take responsibility. Make a plan. Move forward.

Maybe so for you. For me, I get discouraged when I know I failed myself, which is why this feels so bad.

Like you said, so much is up to chance. Due to chance, in my scenario there wasn't any wiggle room for less than an amazing first impression. I thought I was doing everything that I should be doing, and following the advice I had been given by a person whose experience I trusted.

But, in this case, what I was told to do was the opposite of what I should have done. I'm kicking myself for not listening to the little voice in my head that was like "so this was the advice, but maybe it's not the best idea to do xyz right now..."

I don't know. Maybe even without bum advice I would have failed. Wouldn't be the first time, ha.

I have a plan and I'm doing my best. But yeah. Feels bad.

 

[hygebeorht]

I know that feeling, TMA. It sucks to feel that way. Maybe things won't turn out as badly as you're fearing. Match isn't over yet - and either way, it's a long road. Keep doing your best.

 

[throwmeaway]

Thanks. You're right, it isn't over yet.

 

[nohika]

Maybe so for you. For me, I get discouraged when I know I failed myself, which is why this feels so bad.

Right. I'm the type that also gets discouraged at self-failure, because yeah I get in my own way a lot. But.

LIS has a point. Part of coping with life and whatnot is learning to forgive yourself for your mistakes, pick yourself up, and carry on forward. It's really freaking hard sometimes. I know what it's like to wallow a bit and just let yourself feel bad. But you have to put it behind you and keep on trucking forward. Let yourself feel what you're feeling, then move on.

I also don't think your career is over, I think you just now have to fiddle around a roadblock.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Maybe so for you. For me, I get discouraged when I know I failed myself, which is why this feels so bad.

Like you said, so much is up to chance. Due to chance, in my scenario there wasn't any wiggle room for less than an amazing first impression. I thought I was doing everything that I should be doing, and following the advice I had been given by a person whose experience I trusted.

But, in this case, what I was told to do was the opposite of what I should have done. I'm kicking myself for not listening to the little voice in my head that was like "so this was the advice, but maybe it's not the best idea to do xyz right now..."

I don't know. Maybe even without bum advice I would have failed. Wouldn't be the first time, ha.

I have a plan and I'm doing my best. But yeah. Feels bad.

I'm kind of curious what this advice was, TBH. If your actions were bad enough to sink you, it sounds like bizarrely malicious advice. Can you elaborate any more on that? Advice so bad that all the senior faculty refuse to write you letters or said they would write you bad ones? I feel like there has to be something more at play here.

About getting discouraged when you fail yourself - I completely understand. Such feelings are magnified in "type-A" professions such as vet med. Sometimes I wonder if a lot of it is due to the fact that so many students are sheltered for so much of their lives, always getting their A-pluses and 4.0s, living in the academic bubble where your worth is just measured by how well you do on a multiple choice test, very few of them working "real-world" jobs, etc....when they fail at something, they wig out because they have never failed at anything in their lives - because their lives up until that point have pretty much been basking it being told how wonderful and smart they are all the time. It's no one's fault - it's just how a large number of professional students are.

It's hard the first few times it happens, but its gets better - because it WILL happen again. You fail yourself quite a bit in life. The way around it is making sure you always maintain a clear distinction between shame and guilt over said failure. Guilt is a productive emotion. You know you did something wrong and you feel bad about it, so you take steps to change it. Shame is an uproductive emotion - shame is when you start confounding your failure with your own self-worth, and spiral into hating yourself. Use your guilt productively. Shut out the unproductive shame. That's how you recover from failure.

 

[nyanko]

It's November. If your new position is an internship, you have plenty of time to turn things around. During the first few months of my rotating internship, I felt useless and like everyone hated me, and I even had a few senior clinicians and ER doctors who felt the need to verbally berate me for my shortcomings in front of techs and my internmates multiple times. I took whatever positive things I could from these experiences, tried to ignore the method of delivery, tried to work on the actual criticisms they had (which were completely valid, just not presented tactfully or appropriately imo) and improved to the point where I actually was voted by the senior clinicians and technicians as intern of the year by the end of it. So you CAN do it, it will just take some introspection and a little bit of a thick skin about these things. The fact that these things are still kind of a part of advanced training sucks pretty hard, but you can still reach your goals if you are determined enough.

Maybe your chances for this year's match aren't great if you can't get good letters, but things have a way of working out. Feel free to DM me if you want to talk more about this. I'm sorry that you're going through such a difficult time.

 

[nyanko]

As far as the circumstances of getting limited time with the people who you need most to write you letters - at least at my internship, there were times where I was able to demonstrate my interest in a particular field (neuro) beyond just the times when I was assigned to that department. I stayed late multiple times to take neuro emergency cases, even when I was on other services. I made it abundantly clear to my internmates that if there were certain neuro emergencies that they wanted to talk about and brainstorm on or whatever, text me any time even if I'm not there, and I would either help them over the phone or come in and help. Or if there was an emergency back and they didn't want to come in when they were on call, call me and I'll come in for them. I came in on days off to assist with planned craniotomies or Chiari surgery or whatever. My internmates were happy to have the backup and help, and the senior clinicians NOTICED this.

 

[twelvetigers]

I feel like interns go through such CRAP. And it's a universal thing, like hey - let's treat the interns like steaming dog turds, because hey, that's how this all works.

As with many things, it's hard to see past what's right in front of you. It feels like a huge hurdle, or the end of the world, or whatever - but there's a lot that could happen, there's a lot of paths to a goal, and there's lots of people that got diverted from their goal and then found something even cooler along the way. Life is weird sometimes.

I think you got hit with a big, stinky pile of bad luck, anonymous person that I definitely do not know. Maybe you made some mistakes, but it's childish for others to hold a grudge even if that's the case. From here on out, all you can do is work hard and do your best.

Big hugs.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

As far as the circumstances of getting limited time with the people who you need most to write you letters - at least at my internship, there were times where I was able to demonstrate my interest in a particular field (neuro) beyond just the times when I was assigned to that department. I stayed late multiple times to take neuro emergency cases, even when I was on other services. I made it abundantly clear to my internmates that if there were certain neuro emergencies that they wanted to talk about and brainstorm on or whatever, text me any time even if I'm not there, and I would either help them over the phone or come in and help. Or if there was an emergency back and they didn't want to come in when they were on call, call me and I'll come in for them. I came in on days off to assist with planned craniotomies or Chiari surgery or whatever. My internmates were happy to have the backup and help, and the senior clinicians NOTICED this.

I get going above and beyond, but it also sounds like you basically lived as an intern 100% of the time. I know internship culture almost demands this of you, but at the same time, why is it that interns (and even residents sometimes) have to go to lengths beyond their already extremely demanding schedules just to be noticed?

I met an intern who described doing things similar to what you described, but threw in the nice little fact that she did a lot of this stuff off the clock. I don't know if that's a common thing or not, but she mentioned something about not being allowed overtime.

 

[nyanko]

I get going above and beyond, but it also sounds like you basically lived as an intern 100% of the time. I know internship culture almost demands this of you, but at the same time, why is it that interns (and even residents sometimes) have to go to lengths beyond their already extremely demanding schedules just to be noticed?

I met an intern who described doing things similar to what you described, but threw in the nice little fact that she did a lot of this stuff off the clock. I don't know if that's a common thing or not, but she mentioned something about not being allowed overtime.

I was salaried during internship (I think most are...), there was no overtime. We could come in and work an overnight "tech" shift for extra cash. I did this a few times (even though I make an awful technician!) but only when not doing it would have screwed my internmates out of having any help.

I get what you're saying, you're right in that that shouldn't be the case, in a perfect world. In my case, I really did earnestly WANT more experience with those cases so it wasn't a huge deal to me. I felt like I got a lot more out of my experience because I got to be exposed to all of those cases in my area of interest. And again, my internmates and I were in it together, and doing things like that made it easier on everyone. We all had really different strengths, weaknesses and interests and helped each other to make the whole experience better.

 

[pooter]

I get going above and beyond, but it also sounds like you basically lived as an intern 100% of the time. I know internship culture almost demands this of you, but at the same time, why is it that interns (and even residents sometimes) have to go to lengths beyond their already extremely demanding schedules just to be noticed?

I met an intern who described doing things similar to what you described, but threw in the nice little fact that she did a lot of this stuff off the clock. I don't know if that's a common thing or not, but she mentioned something about not being allowed overtime.

Short answer: because life is unfair and everything sucks.

Maybe there are some interns out there who get great educations and great networking opportunities while having a reasonable quality of life, but I don't think I've met them yet. I was at a work-you-to-death place and was also salaried (I think most interns are). I did the math and realized that, accounting for hours and overtime, I was being paid sub-minimum wage on a few of my rotations. I've got tons of respect for the people that can actually go that extra mile and put in the additional work to get noticed. I tried to set a few boundaries (loosely enforced) which kept me sane but also got me labeled a "bad intern," which can come with real and tangible consequences. There was a resident who didn't want to let me pass a stomach tube on a GDV that I'd admitted because she was ticked that interns never came in to help her with overnight surgeries (we weren't required to). There was another resident who would viciously berate several of us and nearly pushed a good friend of mine to suicide. A senior ER doctor would regularly steal procedures from the interns. Another didn't speak to me for six months because I had a habit of showing up five minutes late for my shifts. I guess it says something about the particular kind of insanity that comes with internship culture, but I'm still glad I did it. **** happens. Some internships are toxic while others are just hard. All of them are underpaid. I have some sympathy for the OP and the struggle to get good references, although I suspect they haven't screwed themselves over as badly as they think.

OP: I'd need more details on your situation to comment effectively. If your difficulties came in school while on rotations, then I suspect you can get around it, depending on the specialty that you're trying to get into and just how small of a town it is. No one expects students, or even interns, to be brilliant at everything or have it all figured out, so references are more about demonstrating work ethic and teachability, which any of your seniors can comment on. Consider using references from other services if you think you've burned too many bridges. If the surgeons seemed to hate you, try to find an ophthalmologist or a neurologist to comment on how hard you work. If you fell on your face in neurology but really want to spend the rest of your life cutting backs, try to get an internist to talk up your smarts. It's a bit harder if the problem was during your intern year and you're trying to enter the match now, but you still have options. You might be able to pad out your application with references from vet school. Even if you don't match, you can try to scramble, which gives you a few more months to see cases, gain experience, and change people's minds about you. Do an externship if you can wrangle it - sometimes working with a clean slate somewhere new makes all the difference. Worst case, take a year or three to work, find a good job with new mentors, and then try again. Or, like me, you might find yourself deliriously happy with wherever you end up and decide not to do a residency at all.

 

[that redhead]

I can't imagine going through all of that crap. I feel as though it makes LESS confident doctors because you've been beaten down so much that first year out and told how wrong and dumb and worthless you are by everyone around you...

 

[pinkpuppy9]

Short answer: because life is unfair and everything sucks.

Maybe there are some interns out there who get great educations and great networking opportunities while having a reasonable quality of life, but I don't think I've met them yet. I was at a work-you-to-death place and was also salaried (I think most interns are). I did the math and realized that, accounting for hours and overtime, I was being paid sub-minimum wage on a few of my rotations. I've got tons of respect for the people that can actually go that extra mile and put in the additional work to get noticed. I tried to set a few boundaries (loosely enforced) which kept me sane but also got me labeled a "bad intern," which can come with real and tangible consequences. There was a resident who didn't want to let me pass a stomach tube on a GDV that I'd admitted because she was ticked that interns never came in to help her with overnight surgeries (we weren't required to). There was another resident who would viciously berate several of us and nearly pushed a good friend of mine to suicide. A senior ER doctor would regularly steal procedures from the interns. Another didn't speak to me for six months because I had a habit of showing up five minutes late for my shifts. I guess it says something about the particular kind of insanity that comes with internship culture, but I'm still glad I did it. **** happens. Some internships are toxic while others are just hard. All of them are underpaid. I have some sympathy for the OP and the struggle to get good references, although I suspect they haven't screwed themselves over as badly as they think.

OP: I'd need more details on your situation to comment effectively. If your difficulties came in school while on rotations, then I suspect you can get around it, depending on the specialty that you're trying to get into and just how small of a town it is. No one expects students, or even interns, to be brilliant at everything or have it all figured out, so references are more about demonstrating work ethic and teachability, which any of your seniors can comment on. Consider using references from other services if you think you've burned too many bridges. If the surgeons seemed to hate you, try to find an ophthalmologist or a neurologist to comment on how hard you work. If you fell on your face in neurology but really want to spend the rest of your life cutting backs, try to get an internist to talk up your smarts. It's a bit harder if the problem was during your intern year and you're trying to enter the match now, but you still have options. You might be able to pad out your application with references from vet school. Even if you don't match, you can try to scramble, which gives you a few more months to see cases, gain experience, and change people's minds about you. Do an externship if you can wrangle it - sometimes working with a clean slate somewhere new makes all the difference. Worst case, take a year or three to work, find a good job with new mentors, and then try again. Or, like me, you might find yourself deliriously happy with wherever you end up and decide not to do a residency at all.

I just feel that this is enforcing the whole "This is how internships are, just deal with it" argument. I know there's a lot of "Well I survived it 10 years ago" by some of today's specialists, but I still don't really understand why so many people are just like "Well I know this is totally wrong, but I'll do the same thing that was done to me." No intern should have to lose any day off they get, come in constantly, etc. just to feel as if they will be noticed for doing so.

From what I've seen, the interns are always there. For clinicians to pretend they don't exist is just wrong.

 

[pooter]

I just feel that this is enforcing the whole "This is how internships are, just deal with it" argument. I know there's a lot of "Well I survived it 10 years ago" by some of today's specialists, but I still don't really understand why so many people are just like "Well I know this is totally wrong, but I'll do the same thing that was done to me." No intern should have to lose any day off they get, come in constantly, etc. just to feel as if they will be noticed for doing so.

From what I've seen, the interns are always there. For clinicians to pretend they don't exist is just wrong.

Not my intent. First of all, I don't work with interns at my current position. If I ever did, I would do my best not to treat them the way I was treated. I guess my point was just that it's not a total wash, even if you get abused. It's crappy that this happens and I'd like to see more oversight, especially given the mental health challenges that come with just doing this job in general, but for me it was still a worthwhile experience because it gave me the skills and confidence to land at a place where I'm deliriously happy. I got some good mentorship out of it. The resident with the orogastric tube was actually a great teacher most of the time, and I called her for advice on several cases once I was out in the world. There's an argument to be made that by accepting (and completing) an internship under those conditions, I'm supporting an abusive system (in the same way that buying a pet store puppy supports puppy mills), but I didn't have a good alternative at the time. If I did it all over again, I probably still wouldn't have a good alternative. I'd like to see the system reformed, for sure, but it's going to require changing the mindset of the people running the programs, which is a lot more difficult than capping work hours like they did on the MD side of things. The best solution would be for interns to just en mass decide to stick up for themselves but, as I discovered, that comes with individual consequences, especially the kind of microaggressions that are hard to counter or even complain about. I don't have a good solution. Maybe there should be a union?

 

[Coquette22]

I guess my point was just that it's not a total wash, even if you get abused. It's crappy that this happens and I'd like to see more oversight, especially given the mental health challenges that come with just doing this job in general, but for me it was still a worthwhile experience because it gave me the skills and confidence to land at a place where I'm deliriously happy. I got some good mentorship out of it.

Not directing this at you, just using it as a jumping off point. I feel like this is the mentality a lot of interns have. "Sure it was a living hell, but I'm so much better now!" The thing is, no one knows that for sure. No one knows if they would have been just as competent after a year of being a GP with semi-reasonable hours and better pay. I learned a lot my first year out in practice and I think a lot of people do. I'm definitely NOT knocking internships for the purposes of going into a specialty, they are definitely needed for that. But for the people who do an internship and then go into private practice, I'm not sure that work-you-to-the-bone less-than-minimum wage year actually makes that much difference from a competency standpoint. I think you can learn just as much and get plenty of mentoring in private practice depending on the clinic.

 

[nyanko]

Not directing this at you, just using it as a jumping off point. I feel like this is the mentality a lot of interns have. "Sure it was a living hell, but I'm so much better now!" The thing is, no one knows that for sure. No one knows if they would have been just as competent after a year of being a GP with semi-reasonable hours and better pay. I learned a lot my first year out in practice and I think a lot of people do. I'm definitely NOT knocking internships for the purposes of going into a specialty, they are definitely needed for that. But for the people who do an internship and then go into private practice, I'm not sure that work-you-to-the-bone less-than-minimum wage year actually makes that much difference from a competency standpoint. I think you can learn just as much and get plenty of mentoring in private practice depending on the clinic.

I mean, plenty of people go into their first non-internship jobs and they are being taken advantage of and beaten into the ground and miserable, without the silver lining that it has a defined endpoint.

 

[Trilt]

I mean, plenty of people go into their first non-internship jobs and they are being taken advantage of and beaten into the ground and miserable, without the silver lining that it has a defined endpoint.

And for different people, the same clinic can be a completely different experience. I went into my first job, and, despite some kerfuffles, quite like it. We recently hired two new grads and one of them is absolutely miserable and looking for a new place. "Fit" is important.

I'd personally just prefer to be paid more than 20-30k/year for even a bad fit, lol.

 

[Coquette22]

I mean, plenty of people go into their first non-internship jobs and they are being taken advantage of and beaten into the ground and miserable, without the silver lining that it has a defined endpoint.

I had a one year contract, so there was still an endpoint if it sucked. Is it common to not have a contract?

 

[LetItSnow]

I mean, plenty of people go into their first non-internship jobs and they are being taken advantage of and beaten into the ground and miserable, without the silver lining that it has a defined endpoint.

Yeah, but there are at least two major caveats:

1) They can leave without major repercussions (meaning, they get to put their own defined endpoint on it); and

2) They get paid more than interns.

Not excusing treating people miserably in their jobs, but I think it's different in an internship vs a 'job'.

 

[DVMDream]

I mean, plenty of people go into their first non-internship jobs and they are being taken advantage of and beaten into the ground and miserable, without the silver lining that it has a defined endpoint.

As someone who did feel a bit beat into the ground by my first job, I could have ended it at any time. Yes, my contract did ask for a 30 day notice and I gave them more than that when I finally did elect to leave, but state law here states I could up and leave that job any time without reason and without notice. Granted it is best to give notice and be professional, but if you really are miserable, you can leave. And there isn't near the repercussions of leaving of a job early as their is leaving an internship early.

Not to mention I was getting paid >$85k starting off. So a bit more comfortable than an interns salary.