GB declaration

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I’m reposting this chart to demonstrate that Sweden is an exception and is the only outlier in its quadrant (high deaths/low decline in GDP). Most countries that have “saved their economy” have done so by controlling the virus and are in the low death/low decline in GDP quadrant. The countries that have suffered the highest economic impact also have the highest deaths per capita (except Sweden). We can take aim to be Sweden but end up being Spain.


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Aren't you basically advocating Sweden? We have evidence of how it has worked out for them relative to other countries in proximity.
Maybe...
If you extrapolate the death toll for 2020 if it stays at the same rate as the first 9 months (will probably be lower) you get 95k deaths vs +-90 for other years.
So +5k death that could be attributed to covid.
Is that bad?
 
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For all the talk about privilege on this board, there seems to be a lot of selective ignorance about being in a priveleged financially stable point in your life here. Some of you guys act like your kids are never going to read if they miss a few months of second grade which straight up is not true. Yet you’re fine with vilifying any social activity between people without families right now. At some point we have to get on with our lives.

Who has kids that can’t read in second grade? Yikes!
Just have your nanny teach them. Make sure she wasn’t out with friends getting covid first.
 
Thanks for sharing. I signed the GBD. Of course not everyone agrees with it, but there is NO evidence that massive lockdowns made any damn difference and in fact the lack of social services and school (hello!!!) greatly worsened economic divides. In the meantime I have to wear a f*cking mask outside hiking around the trails surrounding my hotel. As if that makes ANY sense at all.

This isn’t a political statement. Unlike the freaking Lancet who entered the fray of a different country’s political system. Never mind they have the same editor-in-Chief who somehow survived the vaccines-autism fiasco as well as the HCQ-mortality retraction. A joke!

Rather than quick judgements and discrediting folks, how about considering their points? Maybe an honest reflection on the policies of individual states (looking at you, NY) which worked and didn’t work? Problem is, today no one will admit being wrong.
 
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Maybe...
If you extrapolate the death toll for 2020 if it stays at the same rate as the first 9 months (will probably be lower) you get 95k deaths vs +-90 for other years.
So +5k death that could be attributed to covid.
Is that bad?

Deaths from some other causes decline during closures and partial closures. For example, our trauma service was very slow during April and May. I think it was just from fewer people being out and about.
 
Deaths from some other causes decline during closures and partial closures. For example, our trauma service was very slow during April and May. I think it was just from fewer people being out and about.
In Europe trauma doesn't account for a lot of deaths.
 
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In Europe trauma doesn't account for a lot of deaths.

Your data is correct. Sweden has had just under 6000 covid deaths for a population of 10million. In the USA, Covid is the 3rd leading cause of death in 2020, after heart disease and cancer. Whether that is bad or not is a value judgement I suppose.

 
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Deaths from some other causes decline during closures and partial closures. For example, our trauma service was very slow during April and May. I think it was just from fewer people being out and about.

Ours was down in early April, but by May it was back to normal. Unfortunately, traumas due to domestic violence have been way up - our facial trauma volume has sadly been up 30% this year overall.

In our community, overdoses are up over 50% so far and suicides up quite a bit as well.

This of course doesn’t take into account excess deaths from lack of care during these times - cancer, strokes, heart attacks...
 
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In the USA, Covid is the 3rd leading cause of death in 2020, after heart disease and cancer.
Most of the people I've argued this point with simply don't believe that. They're genuinely convinced that heart disease deaths, cancer deaths, and grizzly bear attack deaths are being politically tallied as covid deaths. Sometimes it's blatant conspiracy to destroy the economy to get Biden elected, sometimes it's a more subtle conspiracy where hospitals "get paid more" for covid deaths and fudge the numbers for cash, sometimes they just don't believe the data at all.

I've just quit talking to these people about covid because there's nowhere to go with the conversation.

This degree of denial may be a mostly American problem, but I'm honestly not sure if it matters.

Italy, the western nation where the pandemic really took off first, got things under control, mostly, a few months ago. And yet, this last week Italy has seen new case numbers (approx +10,000 per day) that exceed the worst days back in late March (approx +6,000 per day). Maybe it's not really worse than March and testing is simply better now, but it's pretty clearly spiraling out of control again in a country that basically did all the right things. Hopefully deaths won't be as bad with this wave given the improvements in treatment and other infrastructure.

But it is becoming crystal clear that for political, social, economic, mental health, pick your human-nature reason, the working-age cohort of people in western civilization can only bear so much before they just collectively say "**** it I'm getting back to my life and I'll take my chances" ... and we've reached that point.
 
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FYI mass lockdowns in perpetuity were never what anyone was advocating.

This was from Trump’s own CDC:

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Those slides are from whitehouse.gov of all places.

They were published back in May and were literally the most basic, evidenced-based measures we could’ve undertaken to have a safer reopening, and of course they were immediately discredited and squashed by trump and a bunch of idiot governors. It’s mind boggling to me that people think the US could’ve taken the Swedish approach when we live in a country where 30-40% of people think COVID and social distancing and masks and phased business reopening are a hoax invented by the democrats to prevent trump's re-election.
 
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I certainly don’t think most people here are advocating for strike lock downs forever.

I think practical steps like masking, general social distancing, no large gatherings are totally reasonable and sustainable at this point.

What I don’t understand about the herd immunity plan is how people think the economy would continue when people are sick? Sure if you’re going and healthy you mostly likely won’t die from COVID, but the majority of my colleagues who had COVID were certainly symptomatic and not well enough to work for a week.

Who is going to take care of the elderly and teach kids and deliver groceries when people are ill?

It’s mind boggling to me that many parts of the country think this is a hoax and won’t wear masks and attend large gatherings while their case numbers increase and so do their hospitalizations.

Making policies that everyone should carry on like nothing is happening is not a good idea for health and economic reasons.
 
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I certainly don’t think most people here are advocating for strike lock downs forever.

I think practical steps like masking, general social distancing, no large gatherings are totally reasonable and sustainable at this point.

What I don’t understand about the herd immunity plan is how people think the economy would continue when people are sick? Sure if you’re going and healthy you mostly likely won’t die from COVID, but the majority of my colleagues who had COVID were certainly symptomatic and not well enough to work for a week.

Who is going to take care of the elderly and teach kids and deliver groceries when people are ill?

It’s mind boggling to me that many parts of the country think this is a hoax and won’t wear masks and attend large gatherings while their case numbers increase and so do their hospitalizations.

Making policies that everyone should carry on like nothing is happening is not a good idea for health and economic reasons.

It bothers me close to zero to wear a mask. I do it, mostly as I’m a doc and try to set an example.

But I think when you get down to it, and are honest... masks don’t work that well. Especially all the up-and-down with it. If they did an “exposure” would be different depending on mask usage (which it is not).
 
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Among these 21 studies, 11 were conducted in China, 6 in Western countries, and 4 in other Asian countries. In terms of virus type, 4 studies examined respiratory viruses in general, 12 on influenza viruses, 7 on SARS-CoV, and 1 on SARS-CoV-2. Yes, only one study on Covid-19, but there is another relevant study published at a later date (see below) and, thus, was not included in this meta-analysis.

  • The pooled results of all the 21 studies showed that face masks lower the odds of contracting respiratory viral infections by 65%.
  • Subgroup analysis revealed this number to be 80–90% in healthcare workers (HCWs) and about 50% in non-HCWs.
  • Subgroup analysis revealed this number to be 40% within household settings and 56% in non-household settings.
  • Subgroup analysis of respiratory virus types calculated that face masks reduced the odds of contracting influenza virus by 45%, SARS-CoV by 74%, and SARS-CoV-2 by 96%.
  • No significant protective effect was found for H1N1 subtype of influenza virus, which could be explained by prior influenza vaccination or the delayed preventive measures (after exposure) during the outbreak.
Limitations of this meta-analysis, the authors pointed out, include: (1) Data on viral transmission within closed transportation are rare; (2) Studies mainly focused on Asia and healthcare workers; (3) Types of face masks and duration and frequency of mask-wearing were not taken into consideration.

In light of these caveats, “our data show that the protective effects of masks against respiratory virus infection were not only significant for both HCWs and non-HCWs, but also consistent between Asian and Western populations,” the study concluded.
 
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What Fans of ‘Herd Immunity’ Don’t Tell You
A proposal to let people with low risk of infection live without constraint could lead to a million or more preventable deaths.

By John M. Barry
Mr. Barry is the author of “The Great Influenza: The Story of the Deadliest Pandemic in History.”


No matter their politics, people nearly always listen to those who say what they want to hear.

Hence, it is no surprise that the White House and several governors are now paying close attention to the “Great Barrington Declaration,” a proposal written by a group of well-credentialed scientists who want to shift Covid-19 policy toward achieving herd immunity — the point at which enough people have become immune to the virus that its spread becomes unlikely.

They would do this by allowing “those who are at minimal risk of death to live their lives normally.” This, they say, will allow people “to build up immunity to the virus through natural infection, while better protecting those who are at highest risk. We call this Focused Protection.”

These academics are clearly a distinct minority. Most of their public health colleagues have condemned their proposal as unworkable and unethical — even as amounting to “mass murder,” as William Haseltine, a former Harvard Medical School professor who now heads a global health foundation, put it to CNN last week.

But who is right?

The signers of the declaration do have a point. Restrictions designed to limit deaths cause real harm, including, but by no means limited to, stress on the economy, increases in domestic violence and drug abuse, declines in tests that screen for cancer and on and on. Those living alone suffer real pain from isolation, and the young have every reason to feel bitter over the loss of substantive education and what should have been memories of a high school prom or the bonding friendships that form in a college dorm at 2 a.m. or on an athletic team or in some other endeavor.


So the idea of returning to something akin to normal — releasing everyone from a kind of jail — is attractive, even seductive. It becomes less seductive when one examines three enormously important omissions in the declaration.

First, it makes no mention of harm to infected people in low-risk groups, yet many people recover very slowly. More serious, a significant number, including those with no symptoms, suffer damage to their heart and lungs. One recent study of 100 recovered adults found that 78 of them showed signs of heart damage. We have no idea whether this damage will cut years from their lives or affect their quality of life.

Second, it says little about how to protect the vulnerable. One can keep a child from visiting a grandparent in another city easily enough, but what happens when the child and grandparent live in the same household? And how do you protect a 25-year-old diabetic, or cancer survivor, or obese person, or anyone else with a comorbidity who needs to go to work every day? Upon closer examination, the “focused protection” that the declaration urges devolves into a kind of three-card monte; one can’t pin it down.

Third, the declaration omits mention of how many people the policy would kill. It’s a lot.

The Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation at the University of Washington, whose modeling of the pandemic the White House has used, predicts up to about 415,000 deaths by Feb. 1, even with current restrictions continuing. If these restrictions are simply eased — as opposed to eliminating them entirely, which would occur if herd immunity were pursued — deaths could rise to as many as 571,527. That’s just by Feb. 1. The model predicts daily deaths will still be increasing then.

Will we have achieved herd immunity then? No.

Herd immunity occurs when enough people have immunity either through natural infection or a vaccine so the outbreak eventually dies out. By Feb. 1, even with eased mandates, only 25 percent of the population will have been infected, by my calculations. The most optimistic model suggests herd immunity might occur when 43 percent of the population has been infected, but many estimate 60 percent to 70 percent before transmission trends definitively down.

Those are models. Actual data from prison populations and from Latin America suggest transmission does not slow down until 60 percent of the population is infected. (At present, only about 10 percent of the population has been infected, according to the C.D.C.)

And what will be the cost? Even if herd immunity can be achieved with only 40 percent of the population infected or vaccinated, the I.H.M.E. estimates that a total of 800,000 Americans would die. The real death toll needed to reach herd immunity could far exceed one million.

As horrific a price as that is, it could prove much worse if damage to the heart, lungs or other organs of those who recover from the immediate effects of the virus does not heal and instead leads to early deaths or incapacitation. But we won’t know that for years.

Some aftereffects of the 1918 influenza pandemic did not surface until the 1920s or later. For instance, children born during its peak in 1919 had worse health outcomes as they grew older, compared with others born around that time. There is speculation that the influenza caused a disease called encephalitis lethargica, which became almost epidemic in the 1920s and then later disappeared, and which affected patients in Oliver Sacks’s book “Awakenings.” Both the 1918 pandemic and other viruses have been linked to Parkinson’s disease.

Proponents of herd immunity point to Sweden. Swedish officials deny having actively pursued that strategy, but they never shut down their economy or closed most schools, and they still haven’t recommended masks. Its neighbors Denmark and Norway did. Sweden’s death rate per 100,000 people is five times Denmark’s and 11 times Norway’s. Did the deaths buy economic prosperity? No. Sweden’s G.D.P. fell 8.3 percent in the second quarter, compared with Denmark’s 6.8 percent and Norway’s 5.1 percent.

Finally, the Great Barrington Declaration aims at a straw man, opposing the kind of large, general lockdown that began in March. No one is proposing that now.

Is there an alternative? There was once a simple one, which the vast majority of public health experts urged for months: social distancing, avoiding crowds, wearing masks, washing hands and a robust contact tracing system, with support for those who are asked to self-quarantine and for selected closures when and where necessary.

Some states listened to the advice and have done well, just as many schools listened and have reopened without seeing a surge. But the Trump administration and too many governors never got behind these measures, reopened too many states too soon, and still haven’t straightened out testing.

Worse, the White House has all but embraced herd immunity and has also poisoned the public with misinformation, making it all but impossible to get national, near-universal compliance with public health advice for the foreseeable future.

As a result, the United States is not in a good place, and achieving near containment of the virus — as South Korea (441 deaths), Australia (904 deaths), Japan (1,657 deaths) and several other countries have done — is impossible. We can, however, still aim for results akin to those of Canada, where there were 23 deaths on Friday, and Germany, which suffered 24 deaths on Friday.

Getting to that point will require finally following the advice that has been given for months. That will not happen with this White House, especially since it is now all but openly advocating herd immunity, but states, cities and people can act for themselves.

Nothing, including monoclonal antibodies, rapid antigen testing, or even a vaccine, will provide a silver bullet. But everything will help. And hundreds of thousands of Americans will keep living who would otherwise have died under a policy of herd immunity.


John M. Barry is a professor at the Tulane University School of Public Health and Tropical Medicine and the author of “The Great Influenza: The Story of the Deadliest Pandemic in History.”
 
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Is there an alternative? There was once a simple one, which the vast majority of public health experts urged for months: social distancing, avoiding crowds, wearing masks,
I'm not disagreeing with this but with random policies that make no sense like the curfew we have now.
 
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I'm not disagreeing with this but with random policies that make no sense like the curfew we have now.

The things I've seen on the news like people in London can be out with their family or cohabitants but they can't if they're with friends...and we're just gonna do it on the honor system, or Paris, etc's curfews are pretty dumb.
 
Your data is correct. Sweden has had just under 6000 covid deaths for a population of 10million. In the USA, Covid is the 3rd leading cause of death in 2020, after heart disease and cancer. Whether that is bad or not is a value judgement I suppose.

Oh yay! A virus is finally beating all those doctor's mistakes! :hardy:
 
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It is not just old vs young. Haven't you seen all the obese patients in the ICU on ventilators? Should we force all these obese people to self quarantine forever as well?
This should honestly be a wake up call to all the obese people in this country.
I feel like now is the time for a continued public service announcement for people to eat better, get some form of exercise and lose weight. Because I hardly see any patients in the ICU with BMI less than 28-30.
Wake up America. I don’t think the public is truly aware of this really. How many articles have you seen of “healthy” teenagers and twenty somethings that family cannot understand why they died? And then you eyeball someone with a BMI clearly in the 30-40 range.
SMH
And the world wonders why the poor, starving, Africans aren’t dropping like flies from Covid. Lol
 
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This should honestly be a wake up call to all the obese people in this country.
I feel like now is the time for a continued public service announcement for people to eat better, get some form of exercise and lose weight. Because I hardly see any patients in the ICU with BMI less than 28-30.
Wake up America. I don’t think the public is truly aware of this really. How many articles have you seen of “healthy” teenagers and twenty somethings that family cannot understand why they died? And then you eyeball someone with a BMI clearly in the 30-40 range.
SMH
And the world wonders why the poor, starving, Africans aren’t dropping like flies from Covid. Lol

So true. Our icus were full of fatties and proning them was a huge pita even with a bunch of buff ortho residents doing most of the work.
 
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