Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
That's a good point and I agree. And, I need to see what they are doing to help me make that transition. I'm still interested in Surgery.
-
CycleTrack and SDN are teaming up to make medical school admissions more transparent and accessible! Read the announcement to learn how we’re supporting the future of CycleTrack’s free application-tracking tools .
General Surgery PGY-2 Contract non-renewal
Get help with your application
Use all the free resources available to you from SDN: articles, guides, expert advising, forums discussions, and school research.
That's a good point and I agree. And, I need to see what they are doing to help me make that transition. I'm still interested in Surgery.
If I can determine it will cause bad will then I likely won't. It seems that for this situation it is reasonable and warranted.
Not only that, but to be labeled with a possible learning disability??
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
The GME director (just like HR) is NOT in your favor.
Thanks for your interest and reply. I'm not clear on what you mean by "sandbag". Doesn't that mean slow down or stop?...
Screw you over where you end up with nothing. It sounds like they are trying to cover their ass legally and on top of it label you "learning disabled".
I used to work in HR. You do not want any of this.
I know you want another shot at Surgery but at this point you need to just try and get a decent LOR and get into whatever you can.
To be honest, you didn't seem to see this nonrenewal coming. You won't be able to determine if it will cause bad will. They may say one thing to your face, but they will be thinking another thing. The GME director is not interested in keeping you in the program, no matter what he says. He wants to cover himself and the program legally. And get stuck with a learning disability? That's something you'd likely have to report to all future jobs and medical boards when you want to get a position or license. Do you want that??
You need to have a meeting with your PD, ask him what fields he would support you in, and then move forward. You are done at this program. As I said before, you should talk with some faculty or chiefs who you feel you have a connection with and ask them to be honest with you about your failings and how you can make your second chance in a new residency successful. I'm pretty sure that most of the faculty already knows what is happening and I'd be surprised if most of the residents don't already know too. Have you contacted the resident who was fired from the previous year yet? Why not?
If you continue on the path you are on, you will likely sabotage any real chance for a future career as a physician.
Why do you think that?
What happens if you get a technical victory and don't get straight up fired? What will happen next? They will put you under an intense microscope with formal probation and if you are not absolutely perfect, you will get fired. Then they will say they followed the book. Then you look for a new program and instead of having nonrenewal with your PD supporting you for a different field, you'll have a firing with your PD giving you bad letters to any and all fields because you didn't go along with the plan.
You can spin the nonrenewal out as a change of heart, not a good fit, etc. It's harder to spin a firing midway through an academic year and you can be certain that it will happen if you get to stay. You will have a much harder time finding a spot in ANY field for training when you have a PD who will say "jason.lafluer was a resident at my program who was not going to be renewed, fought it, and then ended up getting fired for incompetence after extended attempts at remediation." No new PD will want to touch you. You'll end up working as a GP if you end up still in medicine and having a hard time finding a job at that with just a year of general surgery to go on.
As for the learning disabilities, that will end up getting disclosed when you have to report the details of any firing or termination from training programs to the medical boards. Some states may ask about it as well. Medical licensing boards have alot more room to ask things compared to a regular employer. They can ask about psychiatric histories and the like as it may impact your job as a physician.
Did you talk with the resident who was fired from the previous year yet?
Your first paragraph was very good; I agree. Second paragraph, also good points. Third paragraph: be content with contract non-renewal vs. firing. ok. I don't have a learning disability; how could I if I graduated medical school?
.
Last edited:
I was effin stupid for ranking this program.
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
How did you get burned?
Why would you want to get stuck with the learning disability label then? Why do you think the GME director brought it up?
If you look back at the multiple threads on SDN that talk about residents being asked to resign or getting a non-renewal, they are pretty much all counseled to not bring legal threats into it. When you bring a lawyer into the mix, the atmosphere changes completely. Any attempts at being cordial now or the future is very much in doubt. That's why that is not recommended. I know you aren't talking about a lawyer, but requesting the due process hearing is much the same.
You say there's guidelines not followed to the letter? Ok, there may be. That still doesn't change that the program would rather scramble to get a new resident next year than keep you in place. They just do not want you there. Why do you want to stay???
I feel I'm just repeating myself over and over here. People on here have given you some good, solid advice. It is up to you which way you want to proceed. Your entire future as a doctor is at stake here. Choose wisely.
.
Last edited:
#moveon
#itsnotworthit
#takewhatyoucanget
#thesehashtagshavemorevaluethantryingtostickaround
#itsnotworthit
#takewhatyoucanget
#thesehashtagshavemorevaluethantryingtostickaround
Honestly, I'd go by everyone's advice in this thread. Do not get a potential label put on you of some type of learning disability. For example, I just finished a medical staff application for my new job in the [very long] credentialing process. It specifically asks if I have any physical or mental "issues" that could or do affect my ability to work. If you have a learning disability, it would have to be disclosed. You can't rationalize falling behind, failing complex thinking or not passing board certification by "it just happens."
I am convinced that programs use the "learning disabled" label to justify firing residents. Every resident I've seen put on academic probation and/or fired (who confided in me), told me that it was suggested that they had a learning disability instead of trying to understand why the resident was having trouble (maybe something about 100+ hr work weeks, etc?).
As others have said, do not let them convince you to accept that label because IMHO they will use it against you, not to help you. The GME office is only concerned as far as their legal responsibility requires them to be.
Cut your losses, get the vague weak letter of support from your PD, bow out gracefully and call that resident who found a PGY-2 surgical position tomorrow.
As others have said, do not let them convince you to accept that label because IMHO they will use it against you, not to help you. The GME office is only concerned as far as their legal responsibility requires them to be.
Cut your losses, get the vague weak letter of support from your PD, bow out gracefully and call that resident who found a PGY-2 surgical position tomorrow.
usually people will say...don't listen to random people on an anonymous forum, but in this case i think it is better to listen to the random people on the anonymous forum...why? because we don't have any vested interest in this...people have relayed to you their experiences from both sides...and the overwhelming opinion here is that you are damn lucky to have the support (which maybe disappearing) of your PD to get you into another residency program and your unrealistic desire to stay in surgery is going to cost you in the end if you don't wise up...yes, they may be a new program and that makes them all that more motivated not to be seen to have any deficiencies...and if they have to place the blame on an intern with a "learning disability" as to why they had to let someone go...they will JUMP on it...if is not to your benefit to get labeled with a learning disability at this early point in your career...it will come out and easily becomes a rationale on why a hospital lets you go or doesn't give you privileges...
Yeah, OP you have gotten plenty of good advice pretty much all saying the same thing.
Hint - you might want to listen.
Or maybe you are learning impaired.......
#toughlove#
Hint - you might want to listen.
Or maybe you are learning impaired.......
#toughlove#
OP the reason the GME is encouraging you to pursue a due process review is to cover all of HIS bases. It has nothing to do with you or what happens to you. The end of the story will remain the same. Seriously think about cutting your losses and finding a new program if you can. You originally stated that you regretted not doing more during M4 because your skills became rusty. You really can't afford to sit around another year. Your skills will be awful by then.
Are you still working now? Will you get full credit for the intern year? Have you called the other intern that was fired last year? What did she say?
Sent from my iPad using SDN mobile app
CALL THE GIRL!!!
I am in a similar position as the OP, except I'm in IM. I managed to get an application in time for the SOAP but not the match. Does anyone know of chances of securing an IM PGY-2 spot or anything else for that matter? Any and all sincere advice is welcomed.
You might want to start your own thread with specifics that you want to share. That way people can provide the best possible advice for your particular situation.
Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
I just heard pathologists can make around $500, 000 a year?... is that true?
I agree with most of the advice you've been given here.
Think about it this way: If you take this to a grievance hearing, there are one of two outcomes. Either:
1. You end up still fired. In that case, you're no better off. And, there is a reasonable chance that your PD will not feel as warm and fuzzy about you. Although I tell any resident that I'm terminating that it's their right to have a fair hearing, and that I won't hold it against them if they do, the adversarial nature of a grievance hearing is certain to elicit negative emotions in everyone.
2. Your program is forced to keep you. They don't want to, but the decision is binding. Unless you can magically have a much improved performance, this situation is unlikely to end well.
Getting a LD eval is only valuable for one thing -- more time on tests. And even that is hard to get from the USMLE or for the board exams.
As to your last post, if that's the metric you're using to try to choose a new program, you are going to be disappointed.
Think about it this way: If you take this to a grievance hearing, there are one of two outcomes. Either:
1. You end up still fired. In that case, you're no better off. And, there is a reasonable chance that your PD will not feel as warm and fuzzy about you. Although I tell any resident that I'm terminating that it's their right to have a fair hearing, and that I won't hold it against them if they do, the adversarial nature of a grievance hearing is certain to elicit negative emotions in everyone.
2. Your program is forced to keep you. They don't want to, but the decision is binding. Unless you can magically have a much improved performance, this situation is unlikely to end well.
Getting a LD eval is only valuable for one thing -- more time on tests. And even that is hard to get from the USMLE or for the board exams.
As to your last post, if that's the metric you're using to try to choose a new program, you are going to be disappointed.
Thanks for your reply. I appreciate your expertise. What type of program are you a director of?
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
Who cares?
Your goal is to be a physician, right? Why are you concerned with the salary of a pathologist when you're out of a job in 4 months?
Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
I've been offered a pathology pgy-1 job.
Yes, I believe it's decent. What do you know about pathology?
You might want to take that shit
Didn't you take a class on it in med school?
Didn't you take a class on it in med school?
lol, yeah but i forgot all that ****. j/k
Didn't you take a class on it in med school?
I've heart the job market could possibly be, well,...****ty.
They look at stuff really deeply and intensely.
It can be. I would look at the fellowship angle with it.
The hours, even during residency are very very good.
From what I have heard from, take with a grain of salt, jobs can be found but you usually have to do a fellowship. And be flexible on where you will live.
And the hrs are not nearly as bad as Surgery.
Might want to look at this.....or not.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...o-you-rule-pathology-out-as-a-career.1186883/
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...o-you-rule-pathology-out-as-a-career.1186883/
why dermpath?
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
Internal Medicine
What is the most common reason for you not to renew a contract and why do you think that reason happens?
Poor clinical skills, or major professionalism problems.
Clinical skills are usually a problem progressing from the intern year to the PGY-2 year -- interns "get things done when told" where residents "figure out what to do". Occasionally it's because someone can't get work done fast enough / efficient enough.
Professionalism problems presumably arise from a personality / ethical / morality issue. Not showing up for work. Being untruthful in work. Complete disregard for administrative tasks.
take it...take it yesterday...
if, for some reason, after you finish your pathology residency you still want to pursue a surgical residency, you will be in a better position to get one...that is of course you prove yourself to be an excellent resident.
