getting a job on wall street vs. getting into med school

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nonsciencemajor

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what more difficult/respectable/prestigious:

Getting a job on wall-street or getting into med school.... just curious since everyone seems so impressed if someone gets a job on wall-street

also randomly curious: can someone get a job on wall-street with just a BS? Also what is the average salary of those starting on wall-street?
 
well, the general public is not too fond of bankers right now. 😀

many of my friends are taking the wall-street route right out of college, and will be graduating with BAs in economics (though a few have degrees in things like physics, computer science, statistics, and others). their starting salaries are very nice (~80k or more, with nice sign on bonuses of 10k or more). the money seems to be a little better if you have a hard science degree since econ majors flood the market. the hours for these types of jobs right out of college are hellish - my roommate spent this summer working in investment banking and literally worked regularly until 2 or 3 AM, getting up to go back in at 6 or 7 AM. also, she worked right through weekends. from what she tells me, this will be her approximate schedule for the next two years.

getting a job on wall-street right now is particularly impressive because many companies are not hiring at their same pre-recession levels.

EDIT: keep in mind your starting salary will probably depend on the skill set your future company sees in you.
 
double post.
 
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what more difficult/respectable/prestigious:

Getting a job on wall-street or getting into med school.... just curious since everyone seems so impressed if someone gets a job on wall-street

also randomly curious: can someone get a job on wall-street with just a BS? Also what is the average salary of those starting on wall-street?

Getting into (considering you do successfully graduate) medical school, IMO is leaps and bounds above getting a job on Wall Street in terms of prestige and respectability. I would have to say that it is easier to attain a job on WS because you can get an entry-level position with a bachelors degree whereas becoming a doctor requires an M.D. or D.O. (4 yrs vs 8 yrs + a residency).
From some entry-level salaries of graduates from some of the better NY business schools (assuming that a large number of them get a job on WS) you would be looking at a salary ranging from about $50-$60k - again, this is just based off of some of the top NY business schools (Fordham, NYU-Stern, Binghamton, Syracuse, Cornell, etc.)
 
Getting into (considering you do successfully graduate) medical school, IMO is leaps and bounds above getting a job on Wall Street in terms of prestige and respectability. I would have to say that it is easier to attain a job on WS because you can get an entry-level position with a bachelors degree whereas becoming a doctor requires an M.D. or D.O. (4 yrs vs 8 yrs + a residency).
From some entry-level salaries I have seen for some of the better NY business schools (assuming that the majority of them get a job on WS) you would be looking at a salary ranging from about $50-$60k

It is very difficult to get even an entry-level job at a Wall Street firm. Also, i-banking will get you a starting salary of around $80-100k per year. Don't assume that "most people" who graduate from a business school will work on Wall Street! That just doesn't happen.
 
what more difficult/respectable/prestigious:
Wall street is more difficult. Med school might win respect since bankers are being hated on right now.


also randomly curious: can someone get a job on wall-street with just a BS?
yes.

Also what is the average salary of those starting on wall-street?
Depends what you're doing. I-banking at one of the big firms is ~90k+ bonus.
 
what more difficult/respectable/prestigious:

Getting a job on wall-street or getting into med school.... just curious since everyone seems so impressed if someone gets a job on wall-street

also randomly curious: can someone get a job on wall-street with just a BS? Also what is the average salary of those starting on wall-street?

Is this a serious question?

Why is it respectable to earn money speculating with other people's money? Why is it respectable to earn money for the sake of earning money?

I don't think it's respectable to base your working life around greed, ego, and self-interest. (Wall street is ironically materialistic for not making anything of material themselves.)

I think this sentiment is especially salient in our present financial system. As a consequence, I think the chances of them getting any respect from me are about as good as their prospects for landing another job right now.
 
It is very difficult to get even an entry-level job at a Wall Street firm. Also, i-banking will get you a starting salary of around $80-100k per year. Don't assume that "most people" who graduate from a business school will work on Wall Street! That just doesn't happen.
True story. At least with medical school you have much more control over your candidacy. Whereas with Wall Street, prestigious undergrad really matters and connections, even more so.

...been through that process.
 
I don't think it's respectable to base your working life around... self-interest.

Right, because no one bases their lives around self-interest.

Economics is just completely false I guess. Silly Adam Smith, too bad he didn't have nearly the amount of wisdom teenmachinery does.

... Every person bases his or her life around self-interest. Including you.

And by the way, Warren Buffet has contributed more to society than any doctor ever has. No, he hasn't made any material himself (most doctors don't make any material themselves either) - but he has helped thousands of people by making smart investments and allocating resources to the companies that could use it best (thereby creating jobs, products, services, etc.).
 
what more difficult/respectable/prestigious:

Getting a job on wall-street or getting into med school.... just curious since everyone seems so impressed if someone gets a job on wall-street

also randomly curious: can someone get a job on wall-street with just a BS? Also what is the average salary of those starting on wall-street?

I started on Wall Street in 2004 and at that point it was hard. I went into operations at a top hedge fund. To get the job I applied to about 50 places, interviewed at 10 and spent about 7 hour in interviews at the fund I finally got hired at. The 7 hours consisted of basically nonstop interviews and stress interview questioning such as asking why you wanted to be in finance, waiting till you were a minute or two into your spiel and then abruptly cutting you off to ask "what is 17% of 25". It's not a friendly business.

I came from a no name school with a BS in Finance, a 2.99 GPA and got my job through perserverance. In three years I worked my ass off and went from ops to being a trader. Money wise it is good. I made high 5 figures my first year, just hit 6 figures my second and was well into the six figures my third year. I was nothing special and didn't really like the job much. If I had been more of a team player I could have done much better, but I hated the backstabbing nature of it and rocked the boat. I was laid off when my area of the fund was shut down and after some soul searching I decided to do a post bacc program at 28 years old.

My feeling about wall street is that very few truly like finance. 99% of those I worked with did it for the money. Take that away and it's not a good field. Those who love it love the money. If you can deal with working for someone who exists to make money and is on their blackberry sending emails at 3am then you might like it, but it wasn't for me.

At the same time I am nothing special and I made it to a pretty high level in the business in a relatively short time so I don't think it takes all that much talent, just a bit of luck and hard work.

Feel free to PM me if you want more info.
 
Statistics alone suggest that getting into wall street is much harder based on the number of spots available for med school compared to the number of spots available in investment banking. Maybe a better comparison of difficulty would be getting into a ROAD specialty vs. breaking into investment banking?
 
Statistics alone suggest that getting into wall street is much harder based on the number of spots available for med school compared to the number of spots available in investment banking. Maybe a better comparison of difficulty would be getting into a ROAD specialty vs. breaking into investment banking?

Wall street encompasses investment banking, trading, operations, research and there are lower levels in each area. You aren't going from school to investment banker. You will be a junior analyst first, then an analyst, then associate, then VP, then an MD investment banker. At the entry level it's much easier to get onto Wall Street than into med school. If you want to be an MD on wall street (managing director) then it's probably close to the same amount of work but you will be much worse off as a person.
 
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My feeling about wall street is that very few truly like finance. 99% of those I worked with did it for the money. Take that away and it's not a good field. Those who love it love the money. If you can deal with working for someone who exists to make money and is on their blackberry sending emails at 3am then you might like it, but it wasn't for me.

I agree with this, according to the experiences of a close friend. After several years with a big company right out of college, she's trying to get out as soon as possible. The money is great, easily breaking six figures with the opportunity of making lots more with each promotion, but that's about it. The hours suck almost every day. Coming in to work on weekends, when you're not required to but you have stuff to get done, is normal. The people apparently suck too. It's not just a job to look forward to every morning. Prime example of money not equaling happiness right here.
 
Wall street encompasses investment banking, trading, operations, research and their are lower levels in each area. You aren't going from school to investment banker. You will be a junior analyst first, then an analyst, then associate, then VP, then an MD investment banker. At the entry level it's much easier to get onto Wall Street than into med school. If you want to be an MD on wall street (managing director) then it's probably close to the same amount of work but you will be much worse off as a person.

:laugh: When I first heard this term, I was like "what's a doctor doing in finance?"
 
Right, because no one bases their lives around self-interest.

Economics is just completely false I guess. Silly Adam Smith, too bad he didn't have nearly the amount of wisdom teenmachinery does.

... Every person bases his or her life around self-interest. Including you.

And by the way, Warren Buffet has contributed more to society than any doctor ever has. No, he hasn't made any material himself (most doctors don't make any material themselves either) - but he has helped thousands of people by making smart investments and allocating resources to the companies that could use it best (thereby creating jobs, products, services, etc.).

He wasn't arguing the existence of self-interest, but the respectability of it. Listen before you speak.
 
who is happier in all your opinion?:

the fresh 22 year old making a awesome starting salary in NYC.

or the 22 year old swamped in medical textbooks, hoping that the work will eventually pay off and knowing that medicine is an enjoyable humanitarian profession getting great respect around the world
 
He wasn't arguing the existence of self-interest, but the respectability of it. Listen before you speak.

Oh right, and I guess he doesn't respect anyone then? I was trying to say that everyone, including those whom he respects, acts with self-interest and are respectable because of their acts despite being based on self-interest. This of course includes all charity workers and philanthropists who derive satisfaction from helping those in need. Are you capable of comprehending this now that I spelled it out for you?
 
who is happier in all your opinion?:

the fresh 22 year old making a awesome starting salary in NYC.

or the 22 year old swamped in medical textbooks, hoping that the work will eventually pay off and knowing that medicine is an enjoyable humanitarian profession getting great respect around the world


Seems horribly oversimplified IMO. I would bet that med students are on average happier than entry level i-bankers working 100 hours a week.
 
who is happier in all your opinion?:

the fresh 22 year old making a awesome starting salary in NYC.

or the 22 year old swamped in medical textbooks, hoping that the work will eventually pay off and knowing that medicine is an enjoyable humanitarian profession getting great respect around the world

...at first. But the "awesome starting salary" is less likely to maintain that happiness as time goes on, even when the salary is increasing.

I know of a number of people that went from finance to medicine, but does anyone know people who did the reverse?
 
I was trying to say that everyone, including those whom he respects, acts with self-interest and are respectable because of their acts despite being based on self-interest. This of course includes all charity workers and philanthropists who derive satisfaction from helping those in need. Are you capable of comprehending this now that I spelled it out for you?




Regardless of what you were trying to say, what you actually said was entirely irrelevant to the discussion. In the end you had to "spell it out for me" because you didn't even spell it right the first time.

You were originally arguing economics is proof that people base their lives around self interest and completely ignored the contextual subject of respectability. That is why I called you out.
 
Is this a serious question?

Why is it respectable to earn money speculating with other people's money? Why is it respectable to earn money for the sake of earning money?

I don't think it's respectable to base your working life around greed, ego, and self-interest. (Wall street is ironically materialistic for not making anything of material themselves.)

I think this sentiment is especially salient in our present financial system. As a consequence, I think the chances of them getting any respect from me are about as good as their prospects for landing another job right now.

Respect is subjective, many people find salary as a measure of respectability. Some argue not acting out of self-interest is actually very bad. Are you really suggesting that Wall Street serves no purpose and creates nothing of material?

It is very difficult in this economy for many to find a job on Wall Street, but there are a large minority who absolutely crushed the market when it crashed and can retire now if they want.
 
what more difficult/respectable/prestigious:

Getting a job on wall-street or getting into med school.... just curious since everyone seems so impressed if someone gets a job on wall-street

also randomly curious: can someone get a job on wall-street with just a BS? Also what is the average salary of those starting on wall-street?


this COMPLETELY depends on where you go to undergrad.

if you go to an ivy, all wall st firms will recruit on campus and getting a job thru corporate recruiting is WAY easier than getting into medical school - all you have to do is get a decent gpa in courses that are not as challenging as pre-med courses and do well in a couple of interviews. of course it also helps if you're well-connected.

it seems that breaking into wall st from other undergrads is much more difficult.

btw, what's the point of this question? are you trying to decide between banking and med school?
 
Wall Street seems to be more about connections, while Medical school I think is more about intelligence and what you put into it.

Lot's of kids with mommy and daddy in the right places can get into Wall Street without a Harvard degree. Medical school is a little bit more difficult to pull with connections.
 
i have to say i disagree with a lot of posts here by premeds. as someone who almost pursued a career in investment bank (got recruited by lehman brothers my junior year in college), i have to say that getting into entry-level position at a bulge bracket firms (ex. goldman sachs, morgan stanley, deutsche bank, etc.) is much much harder than getting into med school. if you guys dont believe me, check out this website:
http://www.businessweek.com/careers/first_jobs/2008/4.htm


as you can see, in 2008, around 23000 applied to goldman for fulltime position. goldman made around 1000 offers, more than half of those offers went to their summer interns. so only around 500 offers were made to outside applications, making it around 2% acceptance rate. but mind you, top firms like goldman only recruits from super elite schools like MIT, Harvard, Princeton where as I have seen plenty of kids from state schools getting into med schools. so from that logic, getting an entry-level position with a Wall Street bulge bracket firm is much much tougher than getting into med school.
 
i have to say i disagree with a lot of posts here by premeds. as someone who almost pursued a career in investment bank (got recruited by lehman brothers my junior year in college), i have to say that getting into entry-level position at a bulge bracket firms (ex. goldman sachs, morgan stanley, deutsche bank, etc.) is much much harder than getting into med school. if you guys dont believe me, check out this website:
http://www.businessweek.com/careers/first_jobs/2008/4.htm


as you can see, in 2008, around 23000 applied to goldman for fulltime position. goldman made around 1000 offers, more than half of those offers went to their summer interns. so only around 500 offers were made to outside applications, making it around 2% acceptance rate. but mind you, top firms like goldman only recruits from super elite schools like MIT, Harvard, Princeton where as I have seen plenty of kids from state schools getting into med schools. so from that logic, getting an entry-level position with a Wall Street bulge bracket firm is much much tougher than getting into med school.

LOL...thank God you didn't pursue that opportunity....
 
well, a lot of Lehman employees end up working for Barclays Capital anyways because North American Lehman was sold to Barclays. But yeah, the year I was applying, the economy was not doing so hot so I decided to do this premed thing instead.
 
this COMPLETELY depends on where you go to undergrad.

if you go to an ivy, all wall st firms will recruit on campus and getting a job thru corporate recruiting is WAY easier than getting into medical school - all you have to do is get a decent gpa in courses that are not as challenging as pre-med courses and do well in a couple of interviews. of course it also helps if you're well-connected.

it seems that breaking into wall st from other undergrads is much more difficult.

btw, what's the point of this question? are you trying to decide between banking and med school?

I'd say advanced finance and econ classes are much more difficult than intro biology and chemistry. Don't kid yourself, premed classes are nowhere near the hardest thing you can do.
 
I'd say advanced finance and econ classes are much more difficult than intro biology and chemistry. Don't kid yourself, premed classes are nowhere near the hardest thing you can do.

completely agreed with Slack3r here. I dont think many of my bio-premed friends can handle the rigor of Stochastic Calculus, Monte Carlo Simulation Methods, Continuous Financial Time Series, etc. Hell, they were already complaining how hard Intro Physics was.
 
Anyone weighing career on Wall Street versus a career in Medicine should probably not go into Medicine.
 
Anyone weighing career on Wall Street versus a career in Medicine should probably not go into Medicine.

No I love Medicine, and am very excited to start med school in August!!! I just wanted to know what this wall-street is all about... just total honest curiosity that came out of the blue...that all

By the way, do you all think I can apply for a summer internship at a company in Wall-Street, before starting med school in August?.... I just feel its something I can add to my resume.... though I know it wont count for anything... just for the sake of experience
 
No I love Medicine, and am very excited to start med school in August!!! I just wanted to know what this wall-street is all about... just total honest curiosity that came out of the blue...that all

By the way, do you all think I can apply for a summer internship at a company in Wall-Street, before starting med school in August?.... I just feel its something I can add to my resume.... though I know it wont count for anything... just for the sake of experience


Bulge bracket firms hire summer analysts in the summer of their junior year. Summer analysts who perform well are offered fulltime position after they graduate from college. Also, most summer analysts at bulge bracket firms usually had some kind of internship experience with smaller shops/boutique firms before. Unless, you have riciculous connections on the Street or best friends with the recruiters, your chances are pretty slim. These positions are very competitive since summer analysts make about 10k a month (60k a year + bonuses prorated). Which area of finance are u interested in? Investment banking? Corp fin? Trading? M and A? Portfolio management? How much finance background do you have?
 
Bulge bracket firms hire summer analysts in the summer of their junior year. Summer analysts who perform well are offered fulltime position after they graduate from college. Also, most summer analysts at bulge bracket firms usually had some kind of internship experience with smaller shops/boutique firms before. Unless, you have riciculous connections on the Street or best friends with the recruiters, your chances are pretty slim. These positions are very competitive since summer analysts make about 10k a month (60k a year + bonuses prorated). Which area of finance are u interested in? Investment banking? Corp fin? Trading? M and A? Portfolio management? How much finance background do you have?

Not much finance background at all..... i am a humanities major... but I have medical research experience (publications), grades are good (took math and science courses and got A's in them), test scores are good, lots of leadership roles in undergrad, etc.... do you really need to be a business-related major to get one of these positions? can you learn on the spot?... thats at least how my medical research experience was....

can I apply for like customer relations (as thats what humanities majors are good at?)
 
By the way, do you all think I can apply for a summer internship at a company in Wall-Street, before starting med school in August?.... I just feel its something I can add to my resume.... though I know it wont count for anything... just for the sake of experience


I think you're narrowing your scope a little too much.


The converse of what you're saying is equivalent to being a business student and saying you want to shadow the top 10, and ONLY the top 10 neurosurgeons in the nation, just for the hell of it.


Wall Street are the biggest and the best of the business world and will only accept interns who are CONNECTED AND DEDICATED. They're not going to let you jump in the boat if you aren't gunna row. What you're considering is nigh impossible for an average joe on the street to do.
 
I think you're narrowing your scope a little too much.


The converse of what you're saying is equivalent to being a business student and saying you want to shadow the top 10, and ONLY the top 10 neurosurgeons in the nation, just for the hell of it.


Wall Street are the biggest and the best of the business world and will only accept interns who are CONNECTED AND DEDICATED. They're not going to let you jump in the boat if you aren't gunna row. What you're considering is nigh impossible for an average joe on the street to do.

well a business student theoretically could shadow a top 10 neurosurgeon.. especially if he is a business major who is premed, and is equally interested in both... I would think the neurosurgeon would be impressed with an applicant like this, more so than a science major since it shows that the applicant is multi-talented, something neurosurgery (and medicine) extensively needs

and looking at profiles of these companies, they are taking students from other majors and not just business-related majors... just like med schools are taking students who are not science majors... actually more nonscience majors (liberal arts) are getting the internships compared to science majors

so why are the chances slim, if I have got a well-rounded application?
 
what are some internships you all know where I can be a intern in a position like customer relations in business this summer before starting med school?
 
well a business student theoretically could shadow a top 10 neurosurgeon.. especially if he is a business major who is premed, and is equally interested in both... I would think the neurosurgeon would be impressed with an applicant like this, more so than a science major since it shows that the applicant is multi-talented, something neurosurgery (and medicine) extensively needs

and looking at profiles of these companies, they are taking students from other majors and not just business-related majors... just like med schools are taking students who are not science majors... actually more nonscience majors (liberal arts) are getting the internships compared to science majors

so why are the chances slim, if I have got a well-rounded application?


take it from someone who landed a position with Lehman Brothers. I am an econ major at one of the top schools in the nation and did 2 summer internships with a boutique investment management firm before landing a position with them. I had 2 rounds of interview, one on campus and another on "super-saturday" in the Lehman building on Times Square. I applied for an investment banking position so the questions they threw at me were very quantitative and technical. Some probability questions, some bond math questions. I studied my ass off for those. I have to say that unfortunately in the cut-throat financial culture, all these firms care about is your finance background, anything else is almost irrelevant. (unless if you have a PhD in Math or Physics, then you can help them support their functions on the trading floor as quantitative analysts.) Also, I dont think there's such thing as "customer relations" internship.
 
take it from someone who landed a position with Lehman Brothers. I am an econ major at one of the top schools in the nation and did 2 summer internships with a boutique investment management firm before landing a position with them. I had 2 rounds of interview, one on campus and another on "super-saturday" in the Lehman building on Times Square. I applied for an investment banking position so the questions they threw at me were very quantitative and technical. Some probability questions, some bond math questions. I studied my ass off for those. I have to say that unfortunately in the cut-throat financial culture, all these firms care about is your finance background, anything else is almost irrelevant. (unless if you have a PhD in Math or Physics, then you can help them support their functions on the trading floor as quantitative analysts.) Also, I dont think there's such thing as "customer relations" internship.

was this for a summer internship? on one of the websites, it says all majors can apply. I consider myself a well-rounded applicant, who would be able to get excellent LOR's. Is it worth applying just for the sake of applying?

should i mention heavily that i got into med school (implying I have credentials they are looking for since getting into med school is not ez).. med schools want applicants who are good grades, test takers, communication schools, good logical reasoning, friendly, etc....
 
was this for a summer internship? on one of the websites, it says all majors can apply. I consider myself a well-rounded applicant, who would be able to get excellent LOR's. Is it worth applying just for the sake of applying?

yes this was for a summer analyst position during the summer of my junior year. firms hire summer analysts, hoping that they would perform well and stick with the firms after they graduate. that way, firms do not need to waste more money on training ppl. so if you are in ur senior year now, i think u are better off just chillax this summer before med school starts. also, these positions do not require LOR's. if u want a business internship just for the "experience" why don't you try contacting entrepreneurs you know who are now running their own small businesses? that way, i think it's better for your future cuz u get to see how businesses in general operate. this experience might come in handy once u start your own medical practice. whereas in finance, all you get to do as an intern is running financial models on spreadsheets all day.
 
was this for a summer internship? on one of the websites, it says all majors can apply. I consider myself a well-rounded applicant, who would be able to get excellent LOR's. Is it worth applying just for the sake of applying?

should i mention heavily that i got into med school (implying I have credentials they are looking for since getting into med school is not ez).. med schools want applicants who are good grades, test takers, communication schools, good logical reasoning, friendly, etc....

I think the point of the summer internship is for them to evaluate people over a time that they are looking to hire. It's a weeding process. Why would they ever bother giving a highly-coveted spot to someone who is NOT dedicated to the field and is NOT interested in working there after the internship is done? That's just stupid.
 
let me know if you all think I should apply for a summer internship (its perfect as med school starts in mid-august for me)... do I even have a 1% chance.... if I do, I want to apply just for the sake of applying..

please let me know since I want to apply ASAP since the deadline is approaching near the end of the month I believe

I will obviously apply for medical internships (research primarily) and I know I will get accepted to some of them... but if I get a summer intern in one of these business companies, I will do that this summer
 
if u mention med school, they will ask u why would u wanna get a financial internship? again, firms only want ppl who have potential to stick with them and work as slaves for a couple years.
 
so why are the chances slim, if I have got a well-rounded application?


Because hundreds of Yale, Harvard and Oxford business and economic majors gunning for internships get rejected every year. I don't know another way to put it.

Wall Street is the top tier of the business world. Thinking you can just walk in and become part of that world is a foolish notion.


Seek a more modest position in a business elsewhere.
 
Because hundreds of Yale, Harvard and Oxford business and economic majors gunning for internships get rejected every year. I don't know another way to put it.

Wall Street is the top tier of the business world. Thinking you can just walk in and become part of that world is a foolish notion.


Seek a more modest position in a business elsewhere.

like where.... I am totally new to this field... in my hometown.. and how do I apply for these positions... call them?
 
if u mention med school, they will ask u why would u wanna get a financial internship? again, firms only want ppl who have potential to stick with them and work as slaves for a couple years.

can i say I have always been interested in business and medicine, and what I learn from this experience will help me in healthcare management down the road....
 
like where.... I am totally new to this field... in my hometown.. and how do I apply for these positions... call them?

when i first tried to get my foot in the door for finance, i sent out about 30+ emails to everyone I know and local investment management/advising firms. a couple of them replied to my email and then I went in for casual interview. if u have no finance background at all and just want a "real-world" business experience, i suggest that you do what i did. and btw, finance and business are not quite the same. business world consists of finance, marketing, accounting, networking, etc. and within the area of finance, there is trading, merger and acquisitions, corp fin, et. seems like you use the terms "business" and "finance" interchangeably.
 
so why are the chances slim, if I have got a well-rounded application?

It can't hurt to apply. However, from the lack of knowledge of the field you have displayed in this thread I would wager you don't have a shot. If you had any business credentials I imagine you wouldn't be asking for advice on how to land business internships on SDN.

can i say I have always been interested in business and medicine, and what I learn from this experience will help me in healthcare management down the road....
They aren't interested in helping your healthcare career. They are interested in evaluating potential employees.
 
can i say I have always been interested in business and medicine, and what I learn from this experience will help me in healthcare management down the road....


also, management is not the same as banking. see my previous post.
 
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