getting md after omfs

[korndoctor]

since military does not offer md to omfs since its a 4 year residency, is there a way to go to med school for 2 more years to get that md for those that want the extra medical knowledge?

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[Truedat]

The military definitely won't pay for it post OMFS. And there are only 1 or 2 programs that let you get an MD after OMFS but that's only if you attend their program. Anyone can correct me if I am wrong, but if you are going military you won't be getting an MD.

 

[korndoctor]

i know they dont, but for our educational benefit, will they let us take 2 years and let us do it in the civilian world...has people done this?

also do residency programs in the military have any emphasis on research like how it is in civilian residency programs?

 

[krmower]

i know they dont, but for our educational benefit, will they let us take 2 years and let us do it in the civilian world...has people done this?

also do residency programs in the military have any emphasis on research like how it is in civilian residency programs?

The Army will not release you from your obligation or let you go and get the MD. I do not believe this is an option even outside of the military (graduating and then getting an MD) the reason being is I would assume 6 yr OMFS/MD programs are structured to build upon classes - if you attended another program it would not follow the same curriculum or credentialing necessary to get the degree.

There has been posts already about the benefit of the MD/OMFS degree - if that is your goal - don't go military.

All the specialty programs will require a degree of research since table clinics and lectures are regular parts of all the programs. I know that I have seen several papers published through the residency programs - but specifics about research beyond that I am not sure.

 

[korndoctor]

Thanks for the information. That makes sense.

Say after I serve my 4 year active duty obligation and apply for the omfs programs: can I apply to both military and civilian at the same time, and if I get the civilian one, end my military obligation (because technically I would owe them 4 years active duty service for 4 year scholarship) and go do the civilian residency? Is this possible with the Army?

 

[Truedat]

Good question, I would like to know this also.

 

[AFDDS]

Thanks for the information. That makes sense.

Say after I serve my 4 year active duty obligation and apply for the omfs programs: can I apply to both military and civilian at the same time, and if I get the civilian one, end my military obligation (because technically I would owe them 4 years active duty service for 4 year scholarship) and go do the civilian residency? Is this possible with the Army?

Not with the AF. I just read the application package for AF residencies. You sign a memo stating that you have not applied to nor will you be entering a civilian residency program.

You will need to apply to the military res early. In other words, you are usually applying to the military program to start 1 year from your acceptance. For the AF most of our applicants applying in 2010 will start in 2012. I have a resident that was accepted at the 2009 board to start in 2011.

With the AF another option is to contact the OMS consultant and discuss the possibility of delaying your entry to AD in order to apply to a civilian OMS program. If he OK's it and you are accepted, the AF doesn't pay anything and you don't come on AD until you finish your program. That allows you to do the program of your choice (provided you are accepted).

 

[krmower]

Thanks for the information. That makes sense.

Say after I serve my 4 year active duty obligation and apply for the omfs programs: can I apply to both military and civilian at the same time, and if I get the civilian one, end my military obligation (because technically I would owe them 4 years active duty service for 4 year scholarship) and go do the civilian residency? Is this possible with the Army?

Yes you can do that, only down side is that you will end up owing more time if you decide to do it through the Army. If you go into OMFS while you are still paying back the time you owe for HPSP, when you graduate OMFS the time you owe for that will be paid back simultaneously. So your total obligation could be done as early as 9 yrs. If you wait until after your 4 year HPSP is done, then you will end up doing a total of 12 yrs before your obligation is done. So my suggestion is that you decide earlier on what you want to do.

 

[korndoctor]

Let's just clarify. So in my senior year of dental school, one can apply to residencies in civilian and military? if i get a military residency, I am forced to go the military route?

But after my 4 years of AD, i have a choice again to apply to both civilian and military residency? If i get a civilian residency, I can leave the military and do my civilian residency and that's it. However, if I get both, I also have a choice of picking a military or the civilian residency since my 4 year AD was done?

I do not mind if the military route incurred more AD commitment. My ultimate goal is to further my education and be the best dentist i can be.

 

[korndoctor]

Yes you can do that, only down side is that you will end up owing more time if you decide to do it through the Army. If you go into OMFS while you are still paying back the time you owe for HPSP, when you graduate OMFS the time you owe for that will be paid back simultaneously. So your total obligation could be done as early as 9 yrs. If you wait until after your 4 year HPSP is done, then you will end up doing a total of 12 yrs before your obligation is done. So my suggestion is that you decide earlier on what you want to do.

Yes I like that thought, but only problem is after reading everyone's threads in this forum, i get a sense that it's almost near impossible to get a residency that's not GPR or AEGD right after graduating dental school. Maybe that's not true?

 

[krmower]

Let's just clarify. So in my senior year of dental school, one can apply to residencies in civilian and military? if i get a military residency, I am forced to go the military route?

But after my 4 years of AD, i have a choice again to apply to both civilian and military residency? If i get a civilian residency, I can leave the military and do my civilian residency and that's it. However, if I get both, I also have a choice of picking a military or the civilian residency since my 4 year AD was done?

I do not mind if the military route incurred more AD commitment. My ultimate goal is to further my education and be the best dentist i can be.

No not correct in the Army. If you apply for specialty training your senior year - it will only be for military. Civilian is very rarely an option unless you coordinate ahead of time to do so (permission rarely given) if you apply for a civilian program without the permission of your service, they do not have to allow you to attend.

Once you have fulfilled your obligation you could apply to either program, and if you get in with the military you can stay in.
What you don't seem to understand is that if you choose not to apply for specialty training before your time is up, you will end up incurring many more years of obligation - much more than if you had specialized soon after school. Why is that important? If you don't plan on making the military a career, then that is more time before private practice. If you do plan on the military as a career, you won't get paid the large specialty bonuses as quickly.

 

[krmower]

Yes I like that thought, but only problem is after reading everyone's threads in this forum, i get a sense that it's almost near impossible to get a residency that's not GPR or AEGD right after graduating dental school. Maybe that's not true?

Not true in the Army - each year between 2-5 of the OMFS slots (10 available) have gone to guys graduating dental school.

 

[AFDDS]

Let's just clarify. So in my senior year of dental school, one can apply to residencies in civilian and military? if i get a military residency, I am forced to go the military route?

But after my 4 years of AD, i have a choice again to apply to both civilian and military residency? If i get a civilian residency, I can leave the military and do my civilian residency and that's it. However, if I get both, I also have a choice of picking a military or the civilian residency since my 4 year AD was done?

I do not mind if the military route incurred more AD commitment. My ultimate goal is to further my education and be the best dentist i can be.

In you Sr. year in dental school, you will apply through AF application process. Your package will meet a board and our board will decide if you will attend the AF OMS program of if they will be sending you to a civilian program via AFIT. If you get an AFIT slot, it's up to you to apply to the civ program. Usually, you decide which ones to apply to. You would have to discuss with the consultant if you want to go to a 6 or 4 year program.

Your other option in your Sr. year is to discuss the possibility of delaying your entry to AD with the OMS consultant. If he buys off on it, you can apply to any program you want. You don't get any financial assistance from the AF and you are not on AD, so no pay. Once you complete your program you come in the AF as an OMS to pay off the 4 years you owe for HPSP. We don't need a ton of people doing this every year, so it doesn't happen all the time, but has happened.

In your 4th year of payback, if you choose to apply to the military programs, you will sign a contract stating you haven't applied to a military program and that you won't be entering one. If you apply to a civilian program, you'll be on your own. Again, if applying to the military program, you could be going to the AF program or to a civ program through AFIT.

 

[korndoctor]

In you Sr. year in dental school, you will apply through AF application process. Your package will meet a board and our board will decide if you will attend the AF OMS program of if they will be sending you to a civilian program via AFIT. If you get an AFIT slot, it's up to you to apply to the civ program. Usually, you decide which ones to apply to. You would have to discuss with the consultant if you want to go to a 6 or 4 year program.

Your other option in your Sr. year is to discuss the possibility of delaying your entry to AD with the OMS consultant. If he buys off on it, you can apply to any program you want. You don't get any financial assistance from the AF and you are not on AD, so no pay. Once you complete your program you come in the AF as an OMS to pay off the 4 years you owe for HPSP. We don't need a ton of people doing this every year, so it doesn't happen all the time, but has happened.

In your 4th year of payback, if you choose to apply to the military programs, you will sign a contract stating you haven't applied to a military program and that you won't be entering one. If you apply to a civilian program, you'll be on your own. Again, if applying to the military program, you could be going to the AF program or to a civ program through AFIT.

Thanks for the information. Is it like this for all branches of service or just specifically AF?

 

[krmower]

Thanks for the information. Is it like this for all branches of service or just specifically AF?

Not Army.

 

[AFDDS]

Not Army.

That's what is good about this site. You'll get the answers from all services. Good to have someone from the Army and Navy that know about their procedures.

 

[korndoctor]

are the chances to land a residency spot about equal in both AF and army?

 

[Kabek]

are the chances to land a residency spot about equal in both AF and army?

Korn,

I hope you do understand that things like this can't be answered with the specificity which you desire.

Each year to each specific branch there is a unique group which applies to residency in the military. It is not like applying to a civilian program. There will be people applying both from the active side as well as direct accession individuals.

So this year for example in the Army the group applying could have very little to correlation to the next years group. Here is a hypothetical there is 30 applying for 10 OMS spots. There happens to be 10 directly from dental school who are ranked within the top 5% of their class. There is also lets say 20 guys/gals who have been in the Army, deploying, having stellar OER's, etc.

Now next year nobody wants to do OMS and they have 12 bottom runger type folks applying for those 10 spots.

It is not like the civilian world where there will always be highly qualified people applying each and every year so the answer is if your are a stellar candidate it won't matter which branch.

Comparing the AF to Army to the Navy has nothing to do with each other nor does comparing year to year. Of course there will likely be trends ex. now pedo becomes favorable etc, trends tend to follow who is pulling in cash, so now lots of people want to work on the rug rats, etc.

The best thing to do is bust your butt in school then you will possibly have the different options. Pick a branch you want to be in because working with somebody who doesn't want to be there isn't enjoyable or simply stay the civilian route.

Good luck.

 

[AFDDS]

Korn,

I hope you do understand that things like this can't be answered with the specificity which you desire.

Each year to each specific branch there is a unique group which applies to residency in the military. It is not like applying to a civilian program. There will be people applying both from the active side as well as direct accession individuals.

So this year for example in the Army the group applying could have very little to correlation to the next years group. Here is a hypothetical there is 30 applying for 10 OMS spots. There happens to be 10 directly from dental school who are ranked within the top 5% of their class. There is also lets say 20 guys/gals who have been in the Army, deploying, having stellar OER's, etc.

Now next year nobody wants to do OMS and they have 12 bottom runger type folks applying for those 10 spots.

It is not like the civilian world where there will always be highly qualified people applying each and every year so the answer is if your are a stellar candidate it won't matter which branch.

Comparing the AF to Army to the Navy has nothing to do with each other nor does comparing year to year. Of course there will likely be trends ex. now pedo becomes favorable etc, trends tend to follow who is pulling in cash, so now lots of people want to work on the rug rats, etc.

The best thing to do is bust your butt in school then you will possibly have the different options. Pick a branch you want to be in because working with somebody who doesn't want to be there isn't enjoyable or simply stay the civilian route.

Good luck.

Excellent answer.

 

[korndoctor]

Korn,

I hope you do understand that things like this can't be answered with the specificity which you desire.

Each year to each specific branch there is a unique group which applies to residency in the military. It is not like applying to a civilian program. There will be people applying both from the active side as well as direct accession individuals.

So this year for example in the Army the group applying could have very little to correlation to the next years group. Here is a hypothetical there is 30 applying for 10 OMS spots. There happens to be 10 directly from dental school who are ranked within the top 5% of their class. There is also lets say 20 guys/gals who have been in the Army, deploying, having stellar OER's, etc.

Now next year nobody wants to do OMS and they have 12 bottom runger type folks applying for those 10 spots.

It is not like the civilian world where there will always be highly qualified people applying each and every year so the answer is if your are a stellar candidate it won't matter which branch.

Comparing the AF to Army to the Navy has nothing to do with each other nor does comparing year to year. Of course there will likely be trends ex. now pedo becomes favorable etc, trends tend to follow who is pulling in cash, so now lots of people want to work on the rug rats, etc.

The best thing to do is bust your butt in school then you will possibly have the different options. Pick a branch you want to be in because working with somebody who doesn't want to be there isn't enjoyable or simply stay the civilian route.

Good luck.

Great, thanks!
are poeple in the hpsp program given priority over someone applying to residencies through direct accession? or is it irrelevant?

 

[krmower]

Great, thanks!
are poeple in the hpsp program given priority over someone applying to residencies through direct accession? or is it irrelevant?

In the Army priority is not given to either. That being said, there are some programs that direct accessions can not apply for that graduating HPSP guys can.

 

[SFO]

In you Sr. year in dental school, you will apply through AF application process. Your package will meet a board and our board will decide if you will attend the AF OMS program of if they will be sending you to a civilian program via AFIT. If you get an AFIT slot, it's up to you to apply to the civ program. Usually, you decide which ones to apply to. You would have to discuss with the consultant if you want to go to a 6 or 4 year program.

Your other option in your Sr. year is to discuss the possibility of delaying your entry to AD with the OMS consultant. If he buys off on it, you can apply to any program you want. You don't get any financial assistance from the AF and you are not on AD, so no pay. Once you complete your program you come in the AF as an OMS to pay off the 4 years you owe for HPSP. We don't need a ton of people doing this every year, so it doesn't happen all the time, but has happened.

In your 4th year of payback, if you choose to apply to the military programs, you will sign a contract stating you haven't applied to a military program and that you won't be entering one. If you apply to a civilian program, you'll be on your own. Again, if applying to the military program, you could be going to the AF program or to a civ program through AFIT.

Is this correct:

In AF, HPSP grads are required to apply to AEGD-1 but may also apply, in addition, to the residencies that are opened up for that board cycle. Could an HPSP grad apply to AEGD-1 + OMS (or perio, or pedo, etc...)? Would all applications happen at the same time?

The list of open residencies on the AFMS site is the list of residencies that an HPSP seniors can apply to in addition to the AEGD-1. If a residency isn't listed as accepting applications from HPSPs, an HPSP can't apply to it that year.

Is there more than one board for senior HPSPs?

I saw there was a board in March for AEGD-2, pros & perio: is this for 2010 grads entering residencies in 2010?

Seems a lot is up to the way the winds blow the year you graduate...which I think is part of the fun!

Thanks for the info.

 

[AFDDS]

Is this correct:

In AF, HPSP grads are required to apply to AEGD-1 but may also apply, in addition, to the residencies that are opened up for that board cycle. Could an HPSP grad apply to AEGD-1 + OMS (or perio, or pedo, etc...)? Would all applications happen at the same time? Yes. The boards are held at the same time. You are required to apply to the AEGD. If accepted to the specialty program, you simply won't get an AEGD slot.

The list of open residencies on the AFMS site is the list of residencies that an HPSP seniors can apply to in addition to the AEGD-1. If a residency isn't listed as accepting applications from HPSPs, an HPSP can't apply to it that year.

Is there more than one board for senior HPSPs? No the boards happen at the same time, with the exception of supplemental boards (see next answer)

I saw there was a board in March for AEGD-2, pros & perio: is this for 2010 grads entering residencies in 2010? Possibly. Hard to say for sure, I'll have to look on Monday. Some programs accept a year early and may be trying to fill that class if possible. This is a supplemental board

Seems a lot is up to the way the winds blow the year you graduate...which I think is part of the fun!

Thanks for the info.

multiple board opportunities arise. If you want to know which ones you can apply to, contact the education officer at AFPC and she'll help.

 

[korndoctor]

thanks for all the replies.

so with army, there's no chance to defer AD assignment to do a civilian residency. Can someone tell me what the navy is like? Is it like army or is it like air force?

 

[shamrock2006]

anyone who wants to OMS in the military worried about what it will be like if you choose to separate at some point? There's a whole big debate on the the 4 vs 6 yr training (which is not new of course) and how that pertains to what surgeons can and can't do. Anyone concerned that, if you choose to separate at some point, that since you were trained as a 4 yr that its going to hurt you if you get out? Only wondering this b/c we had a pretty big discussion on 4yr vs 6 yr guys at school today....got kind of heated at one point.

 

[AFDDS]

anyone who wants to OMS in the military worried about what it will be like if you choose to separate at some point? There's a whole big debate on the the 4 vs 6 yr training (which is not new of course) and how that pertains to what surgeons can and can't do. Anyone concerned that, if you choose to separate at some point, that since you were trained as a 4 yr that its going to hurt you if you get out? Only wondering this b/c we had a pretty big discussion on 4yr vs 6 yr guys at school today....got kind of heated at one point.

I've known several 4-year trained and several 6-year trained OMS that have retired or separated. I haven't seen it be a problem with any of them so far, no matter which one they attended.

Some hospitals do have issues with granting privileges to someone that does not have an MD behind their name. It will vary by state, so if you are really concerned, you need to check with the state you plan to be in when you a civilian.

 

[korndoctor]

anyone who wants to OMS in the military worried about what it will be like if you choose to separate at some point? There's a whole big debate on the the 4 vs 6 yr training (which is not new of course) and how that pertains to what surgeons can and can't do. Anyone concerned that, if you choose to separate at some point, that since you were trained as a 4 yr that its going to hurt you if you get out? Only wondering this b/c we had a pretty big discussion on 4yr vs 6 yr guys at school today....got kind of heated at one point.

Yes, that was exactly why I'm having concerns. I feel the army should also let us have a choice of civilian residencies that have the MD option in case we decide we want to practice in civilian world once our AD commitment are up. Anyone know if army will bring back this possible option or even include it back into their own residency programs because this is way oral surgery is heading towards in future (this is what many soon to retire OS have told me).

 

[krmower]

Yes, that was exactly why I'm having concerns. I feel the army should also let us have a choice of civilian residencies that have the MD option in case we decide we want to practice in civilian world once our AD commitment are up. Anyone know if army will bring back this possible option or even include it back into their own residency programs because this is way oral surgery is heading towards in future (this is what many soon to retire OS have told me).

What you fail to understand is that you are speaking about your needs and your desires. Sure it will be great for your future career and future options - but how does it benefit the specific branch of service - in this case the army? What you need to understand is the Army's needs.

In the realm of military medicine - a 4 yr or 6 yr OMFS performs the same function. So if you are investing hundreds of thousands of dollars in an employee - are you going to send them off to a program outside of your organization - where they are not treating your patients (Soldiers) - and then bring them back 6 yrs later so they can serve for 6 yrs. Or do you keep them in house treating your patients/Soldiers and then keep them an additional 4 yrs afterwards? Or are you going to send him to a 6 yr program when you could have him back working in 4?

If it were me - If I am paying for someone to get trained, I want them working for me - not for someone else. This is my interpreation only. I think that is great that the AF has other options, and I am sure their is a great benefit they receive from it. But I don't see it changing in the Army again - used to be done a long time ago, and for whatever reason they didn't see fit to continue the program.

 

[AFDDS]

What you fail to understand is that you are speaking about your needs and your desires. Sure it will be great for your future career and future options - but how does it benefit the specific branch of service - in this case the army? What you need to understand is the Army's needs.

In the realm of military medicine - a 4 yr or 6 yr OMFS performs the same function. So if you are investing hundreds of thousands of dollars in an employee - are you going to send them off to a program outside of your organization - where they are not treating your patients (Soldiers) - and then bring them back 6 yrs later so they can serve for 6 yrs. Or do you keep them in house treating your patients/Soldiers and then keep them an additional 4 yrs afterwards? Or are you going to send him to a 6 yr program when you could have him back working in 4?

If it were me - If I am paying for someone to get trained, I want them working for me - not for someone else. This is my interpreation only. I think that is great that the AF has other options, and I am sure their is a great benefit they receive from it. But I don't see it changing in the Army again - used to be done a long time ago, and for whatever reason they didn't see fit to continue the program.

This goes right with what I've posted several times about assignments. Needs of the AF will come first. That's part of the deal. Same for the Army and Navy. We have a mission and that mission must be completed.

The AF doesn't let too many defer to complete training, but it has happened. Most will attend the AF program. You will be hard pressed to find a program that makes a more well rounded OMS than the military programs.

I think krmower makes some good points. If all you are worried about is your future after the military, then the 6 year program may look good to you. If you want great training and great experiences, look no further. It works much better for everyone if you are treating AD pts while completing your training. It helps the mission and it gets you trained. Worry about the other piece when you are getting closer to separation. Like I said earlier, I've known several OMS that have separated or retired from the AF and not having a 6-year program with the MD hasn't hurt them at all.

 

[SNOZBERRIES]

Well stated AFDDS.

The AF programs are extremely well rounded. We are very strong in some aspects (dentoalveolar, anesthesia, orthognathics) and we get good experience in cosmetics and TMJ. For our weaker areas we are sent to other programs to gain experience (trauma, cancer, recon).

Sure there is some debate currently going on pertaining to single vs. duel degrees. The big question comes up when dealing with cosmetics.

I have no doubt that my training in a four year program will be MORE than adequate for a post-military career.