Girlfriend or Boyfriend - Status Entering Med School

[ONYX4000GT]

I have never had a girlfriend, that sad isn't it

Im sure when your a single Doctor you will find a few girlfriends.

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[ONYX4000GT]

But I figure my way of getting him back will be that since I'll be applying for residency first, I'll make him follow me
MUAHAHAHA.....

Women definetely have a way with men...

 

[tch001]

If you're weighing all options from breaking up to getting hitched, please- for the love of all that's holy- don't propose!

I may be a hopeless idealist, but I honestly believe that if you've really, truly found the right person, you'll know it. In the meantime, getting married for the "support" ain't a good idea. Do you have any idea how high the divorce rate is for physicians? The little missus/mister waiting for you at home won't necessarily be the support you're thinking. As med students/doc focus all their time and attention on their studies, spouses get awfully unhappy.

Think about it. Would you want someone to marry you so that they could have your support back home while they went off and studied exciting things?

Just my two cents,
Frogs

I broke up with my b/f of two and a half years about a month ago for this exact same reason. He wanted to get married and move with me wherever I ended up getting into medical school, but I just couldn't bear the thought of making someone uproot their life for me when I probably won't have much time for them or the relationship in the next 8+ years. It's hard though, I miss him

 

[deleted36260]

I'm in my junior year of undergrad (nontrad). I'll have been dating the same woman for ~4 years by the time I go off to school.
If I'm still with her at that time, I should have a pretty good idea if we are meant to be or not. If so, she's coming with. If not, I go single (a bad thing for me, because I'm VERY social and a single phatmonky is a slightly promiscuous phatmonky...NOT the distraction I need/want as an MS1)

 

[Sondra]

October 20 marks the 5th year of my relationship. Not 5 years of dating, but rather 5 years of living together. I don't know when we officially started dating before we moved in together. I was with my boyfriend through most of my undergrad. I worked and went to school and supported him through all of his master's degree. We have been through a lot of ups and downs including losing our home in hurricane Katrina.

I knew med school would be difficult. At first, I wondered if our relationship would make it through med school, but now, I am pretty confident that it will survive and thrive. I am only about 8 weeks into my M1 year, and my boyfriend did not move to med school with me. He stayed at our home about three hours from school, and I rented a house a few miles from my school. He comes to visit every weekend except for test weekends. We talk on the phone several times a day. Long distance is nothing unusual for us. We both did a lot of traveling for work the year before I entered med school. It taught us how to communicate, support and care about each other without being physically together.

He means more to me now than ever, and I don't think that I would be doing as well as I am in school without him. I don't think that there is anything that I can do or say to him that would allow him to understand the things that I am going through and how demanding school can be. I think it is a good thing that he is just far enough away that the stress that I go through does not burden him. He gives me the support and stability that I need. He also gives me self-motivation because I study hard all week long so I can spend time with him on the weekends.

I think every relationship is different, and not all of them will survive through med school. It seems that a lot of people in my class have hope that their relationships will last as I know three people in my class who have all gotten engaged since class began to people who are not in med school. I also know two guys in my class whose girlfriends left them the week of our first test. About a fifth of my class is married and at least a dozen of them have children.

 

[julie29524]

I would say:

If you have a difficult residency, then marriage at end of residency, beginning of fellowship, maybe get knocked up somewhere in fellowship?

If you have a less difficult residency, like family practice, then marry during residency, and get knocked up in residency too.

I guess I prefer late than early, because I don't think my parents should pay for anything, so we should at least have some kind of income to pay for the wedding.

This might be off topic but for those of you who are in a relationship right now, either going into medical school or already in medical school, when do you guys think is the ideal time to get married?

 

[FenderHM]

I have never had a girlfriend, that sad isn't it

i haven't since i became premed/now med... but there's always time for random hookups...

 

[crazy_cavalier]

Since he's an MD/PhD, it's a 7 year program (at least), and so I've calculated that I will actually graduate med school one year before him... On account of that, I'm trying to find a med school within a 1-2 hour range so that if any long term stuff happens during my next 4 years in school, we can actually try to make it work.

There are FIVE medical schools in Philadelphia. Apply to all of them, and if you (hopefully) get in somewhere you'll be very close (<< 2 hours)

 

[powerbooki]

back4more, good luck finding a good relationship with someone special. She's out there for you. If I had any magic power, I would steer you and Erina both to Pitt and make things work out for you two.

 

[VPDcurt]

He's studying abroad this year

He's definitely boned at least 5 people while abroad.

 

[back4more]

back4more, good luck finding a good relationship with someone special. She's out there for you. If I had any magic power, I would steer you and Erina both to Pitt and make things work out for you two.

Thanks, but I think Erina has a boyfriend of 3 years or something like that.

 

[zimmie256]

Hey y'all here is my $0.02, I started my relationship during my freshman year of college. My bf and I went to the same college (he was a junior and studying for the MCAT when I met him). He got into medical school in NJ. We have done the long distance thing for a year and a half. It sucks and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone. You need a real trust for each other and alot of patience. Thank God, we are going to be going to the same medical school next year. Anyways, good luck and it is possible. You or your partner needs to understand that you/ your bf/gf will ALWAYS come second to medical school. That's a hard pill to swallow.

I disagree that this is necessarily true. It depends on the individual's priorities and motivations. For me, my family will always come first. That doesn't mean I'll blow off studying for an exam cuz my husband wants to go to a movie. (So short term, exam comes first). But not everybody puts their schooling/career above their family obligations over the long haul. Nothing wrong with doing it either way, depends on what works best for you. But regardless, it's good to be honest with yourself and your partner before you make/break any commitments. Everyone should go in with their eyes open.

P.S. Congrats on getting into RWJ! It's a great school, and I'm sure you're thrilled that you can finally get rid of the long-distance thing (definitely no fun).

 

[MDstudent101]

I hope that I find my special someone in med school I hope we are both doctors I mean if it doesnt work out like that thats okay but I just dont want to get divorced, I want her to understand !!!!!!!!!

 

[dutchman]

I am not dating anyone for the 4 years of med school. I was in a relationship during te mcat and that B*&%$ almost wrecked the test for me, bickering about how we need to spend more time.

 

[MinnyGophers]

It seriously depends if the person you are with is someone you'd consider worth spending the rest of your life with and going through all that crap together... otherwise, dump'em, it's just not worth the trouble.

 

[ICCONFETTI]

There are FIVE medical schools in Philadelphia. Apply to all of them, and if you (hopefully) get in somewhere you'll be very close (<< 2 hours)

Yea.... I 've applied to all of them........ BUT>.................... I HAVEn'T HEARD BACK at all! And I applied in like August!! i'm worried....
I have interviews at the two new jersey schools though... That's better than nothing huh?

 

[Remiller]

I am not dating anyone for the 4 years of med school. I was in a relationship during te mcat and that B*&%$ almost wrecked the test for me, bickering about how we need to spend more time.

I'm in a relationship and was in one while studying for the MCAT. I also work full-time. I was busy about 75 hrs a week, but our relationship did not suffer at all; it only continued to grow stronger as it has since we met nearly a year ago.

Some people will take out their frusterations with school on their SO, and some will not. Med school is not that different from the average job that demands 45 hrs a week away from home not including time to commute. Figure another hour for commuting and that's 50 hrs, but is never considered too much for relationships.

If it's meant to be, it will work. If it doesn't work, you were probably saved from a divorce down the line.

I'm looking at postbaccs/special masters programs for entrance next year and after discussing this with my GF, I will most likely ask her to marry me around the time I find out where I'm going. BTW - she just graduated with an English degree & is considering teaching.

 

[Falco2525]

I am dating someone who will be applying the MPH programs...we are hoping to end up in the same location or at least close to eachother....let me pose a question for your opinion....if you were accepted to several medical schools and had choices and your SO was accepted to only one place a place where your medical school for that area would be ranked lower than the other medical schools would you let where your SO is going to be influence your medical school decision? I know that was perhaps the worst sentence ever but if you can decifer it I would appeciate your input

 

[ahhh123]

I am dating someone who will be applying the MPH programs...we are hoping to end up in the same location or at least close to eachother....let me pose a question for your opinion....if you were accepted to several medical schools and had choices and your SO was accepted to only one place a place where your medical school for that area would be ranked lower than the other medical schools would you let where your SO is going to be influence your medical school decision? I know that was perhaps the worst sentence ever but if you can decifer it I would appeciate your input

well it really depends if you really want to be with the person for the rest of your life ..it is definitely worth going to a lesser school than to risk losing something so important... and plus since ur significant other is in mph school, she'll be done in 2 or so years.. she'll sacrifice for you when residency rolls around where do you won't be as flexible...if you're bound to succeed, you'll do well no matter which med school you go to.. and based on your list of schools.. i think they're all great! good luck to you!

 

[dutchman]

I'm in a relationship and was in one while studying for the MCAT. I also work full-time. I was busy about 75 hrs a week, but our relationship did not suffer at all; it only continued to grow stronger as it has since we met nearly a year ago.

Some people will take out their frusterations with school on their SO, and some will not. Med school is not that different from the average job that demands 45 hrs a week away from home not including time to commute. Figure another hour for commuting and that's 50 hrs, but is never considered too much for relationships.

If it's meant to be, it will work. If it doesn't work, you were probably saved from a divorce down the line.

I'm looking at postbaccs/special masters programs for entrance next year and after discussing this with my GF, I will most likely ask her to marry me around the time I find out where I'm going. BTW - she just graduated with an English degree & is considering teaching.

Yeah dude I agree with u. But the risk is sometimes u don't know how bad things could get with relationships until it gets bad. I just don't wan't to risk my focus in med school. Cos a bad relationship can do some strange things to u.

 

[stiffany]

Do you break up allowing yourself freedom to hang out, study, and so forth in med school? Im struggling with this whole thing..Please Discuss.

Getting the answer for your own relationship online, if applicable, doesn't bode well for one's significant other. The problem I see with the above quote is that, if you do truly love someone, want to be with them, etcetera, why does your time to hang out and study impinge on being in a relationship with them? It's never going to change. Working full-time and taking classes now with a boyfriend who's busy with his own school work already equals schedule juggling and I'm not in med school yet (which it seems like, barring clinics, will actually give me more flexibility and time). Do you really think you'll be busier in med school than residency? And, will you really have everything perfectly set up as an attending to finally find a special someone if there are still any left?

My point is, putting your personal life on hold because of med school is just silly. Your life is never going to be perfect and there's never going to be this one moment in time where you have enough time dedicated to every single priority. Get used to it now instead of realizing it down the road after breaking up with someone you would have been with (as opposed to someone you liked but not enough to deal with long distance, long term plans) if not for silly concerns.

 

[njcaldwell]

Get used to it now instead of realizing it down the road after breaking up with someone you would have been with (as opposed to someone you liked but not enough to deal with long distance, long term plans) if not for silly concerns.

You make some good points, but the best is listed above.

I think Im gonna opt, and try the long distance thing. I waiver alot, but yah....

And this post was identifying my problem, and asking other people about if they had similar problems, not searching from an answer

This is my biggest thread

 

[TMP-SMX]

I would say:

If you have a difficult residency, then marriage at end of residency, beginning of fellowship, maybe get knocked up somewhere in fellowship?

If you have a less difficult residency, like family practice, then marry during residency, and get knocked up in residency too.

I guess I prefer late than early, because I don't think my parents should pay for anything, so we should at least have some kind of income to pay for the wedding.

No matter when you get married you have to understand that if you are in primary care you will be doing paperwork until the late evening.

Anyway, my girlfriend since the beginning of college is now applying to pharmacy school (25 schools). She is also going to apply to nursing schools (new development). I applied to 19 schools. The plan is to hope that the acceptances occur in the same locales. If not... It will suck.

 

[Cirrus83]

True, but I mean...

Remember that feeling we all got when we left highschool of not wanting to be tied down upon entering college? Most people that tried it broke up during winter break any hoo.... so when the heck do you deceice to STAY together. Is it better to be in a reltionship with a fellow doc? My current gf is as far away from "sciency" as possbile, hates it when I talk about stuff I learn. But she takes care of me Do I want that though? heh..... any way, just thinking while I type

While the high school thing is true, theoretically by now your relationships should be of the more serious life-long variety. Of course, if your girlfriend hates it when you talk about stuff you learn maybe you don't really see your relationship as a life-long kinda dealio.

But yeah, if you have a relationship you can see yourself still in in 30 years then I'd fight tooth and nail for it. If, however, you can hardly even see yourself in the relationship 5 months from now then uhh...

 

[alwaysaangel]

If, however, you can hardly even see yourself in the relationship 5 months from now then uhh...

Yeah but why would you be in a relationship like this at all?!?!

People are weird.

 

[Looque]

I'm just hoping that not all of the unmarried female med students are entirely undateable.

...either that, or I hope to wind up in an area with a young population.

 

[Cirrus83]

True, but I mean...

Remember that feeling we all got when we left highschool of not wanting to be tied down upon entering college? Most people that tried it broke up during winter break any hoo.... so when the heck do you deceice to STAY together. Is it better to be in a reltionship with a fellow doc? My current gf is as far away from "sciency" as possbile, hates it when I talk about stuff I learn. But she takes care of me Do I want that though? heh..... any way, just thinking while I type

Yeah but why would you be in a relationship like this at all?!?!

People are weird.

Well, I never said I was in such a relationship, but I know people who don't even know the person they're regularly having sex with (they know their name and whatever, but they don't actually know anything about them lol), and they complain to me about how the sex sucks because there's no emotional feelings there I suggested perhaps trying to actually find out what the other person is like via a date or something but they said it'd be so awkward to talk to the other person.

Anyways, it didn't sound like the OP was super hardcore in love with his SO (or I would presume that this topic would not even need to be posted) so I'm going to go with the OP being closer to the 5 month description than the 30 year one

 

[Severus]

It'd be nice to have companionship.

You could get a dog [edited for clarification: the furry, four-legged kind].


No, I jest, I jest. I understand where you're coming from. I've never been kissed, but that's largely because I'm ugly as sin, my breath smells, and despite Looque calling it "love fur", I really do think the beard is a turn off. Of course, the hump on my back doesn't help matters any. It really gets in the way...

 

[alwaysaangel]

I really wish I could live close enough to my boyfriend to live with him. Financially and emotionally I think it would be better for both of us (cheap roomate cuz you just need a 1bedroom AND you already know you like each other). But since he has to be in Arizona and I can't go to medical school in Arizona thats out the window

 

[kdburton]

I hope at least some girls are single in med school

They're called undergraduates

 

[stiffany]

You make some good points, but the best is listed above.

I think Im gonna opt, and try the long distance thing. I waiver alot, but yah....

And this post was identifying my problem, and asking other people about if they had similar problems, not searching from an answer

This is my biggest thread

Sorry. I hope I didn't come out crabby in my suggestion about using the internet as a source for finding an answer. With the MCAT coming out in two days I've become rather snappy...

I think it's also important to realize that, as long as you're open and honest with the other person about uncertainties/the tough parts of long distance, you don't have to suddenly say "Okay, I don't see this working ten months from now (or whatever) when I go off to med school so buhbye." There's going to be times when it hurts regardless of what you do now, later, and if or if not you stay together (long distance works for some, sucks for others). Therefore, it's perfectly acceptable take some time to sort things out once you know where you're headed/what your partner's plans are and what that means.

 

[xylem29]

I'm unemployed, single, balding, and I live in my parents basement!

 

[dottore07]

hmmm...all this talk is making OSU's 60:40 guy/girl ratio look very attractive
Gotta love it when the odds work out to your benefit!

 

[rpm]

I know this might sound cliche but it is probably the best advice ever for relationships.

DO NOT get into a relationship unless you are happy with yourself. A lot of people get into one thinking that being with a guy/girl will magically make their life better and everything will be great from now on. You might be happy at first but the relationship will go downhill fast after that.

 

[ClemsonRunner]

I really think that what kind of a relationship you are in depends on exactly what you want. If you just want someone to be around/sleep with/clean- then a relationship is not a good idea. BUT if you genuinely love who you are with and can imagine yourself old and bald with this person- then I think it is a great thing! There again, I am truly an idealist.

That being said, I met my boyfriend at freshmen oritenation and am now in my junior year. I also took the semester to stay in Boston with him because he is going through chemo for treatment of lymphoma. Needless to say, our relationship is incredibly close- he is my best friend and the love of my life. We have talked about getting married between undergrad and med school.

I think that a committed relationship is not going to be easy at all and will require much sacrifice on both ends especially if it is a long distance thing. Oy! Relationships are so complicated.....

 

[chable]

I dumped my ex-girlfriend when I had to start studying for my MCATs back in junior year. I think that about says it about my readiness for a commitment.



(We were also looking for different things in the relationship, anyway)

 

[Iceageheatwave]

Puhhhh-lease. You're the minority if you're into shy guys. As back4more was leaning towards, these type of girls that like these guys typically aren't attractive (nothing towards you froggiebet i don't know what you look like).

i went 3 of my 4 years undergrad being shy, sweet, and nice and it got me nowhere but another night with my h..... nevermind. but when i turned somewhat cocky, funny, and non-shy my 'play' increased exponentially and i met a great girl.
on a side note, older women sometimes dig younger shy guys. the reasoning behind this is clear, and usually they want you as a 'boy toy'. which has it's ups and downs ; )

it's a sad fact of life: people want what they can't get. and if that means the jerk guy who pays no attention to the girl, she will still go after him over the nice sweet guy. the latter is the one girls want to 'marry' after they've done 'messing around' in their younger days.

perhaps we are the minority, but our numbers range outside of the abysmally small, and not all of us are hideous looking.

I honestly believe that shy guys spend a majority of their time b1tching about the 'hot girls' they couldnt get and fail to notice the shy ones.

but back to the point of the thread, if you think your relationship is strong enough to overcome potential setbacks like limited time spent together and long distance then go for it. Be honest with yourself and with your SO and you should be fine.

 

[Looque]

You could get a dog [edited for clarification: the furry, four-legged kind].


No, I jest, I jest. I understand where you're coming from. I've never been kissed, but that's largely because I'm ugly as sin, my breath smells, and despite Looque calling it "love fur", I really do think the beard is a turn off. Of course, the hump on my back doesn't help matters any. It really gets in the way...

Don't let little minds belittle you; the love fur is lovely! And hey, I bet even Quasimodo got some love.

 

[ONYX4000GT]

He's definitely boned at least 5 people while abroad.

HAHA

 

[Rafa]

I honestly believe that shy guys spend a majority of their time b1tching about the 'hot girls' they couldnt get and fail to notice the shy ones.

Boo stereotypes. One could easily say shy girls spend the majority of their time inventing jealous fantasies of shy boys paying attention to pretty girls instead of them. But that would be generalizing, and generalizations suck.

The point is, whether you're a shy boy or a shy girl, you're going to spend a lot of time alone until you figure out how and when to approach people. Because who's going to pay attention to you otherwise? The hot girls/guys chasing after hot guys/girls? Unlikely. The shy one of your preferred sex? Probably not - because they're just as shy/insecure/introverted as you are. Unless you're willing to wait a long, long, LONG time for someone else to overcome his/her phobia and approach you, it's going to be a frustrating ride. Open up, and give yourself a chance to have your heart broken. That's the only way you'll have a chance of someone risking to show you theirs.

And by the way, this is coming from a guy who isn't shy in the sense of not being able to talk to people, but is shy in the sense of not approaching girls often.

 

[peterpansy]

They're called undergraduates

See, that makes me sad. As a single girl who plans on staying single for quite some time, I hate the lack of dating options out there. You guys can just go for the fresh meat, whereas I have never been interested in younger men. And the pool of semi-attractive single men my age or older is getting smaller and smaller. I guess I have two options - to try giving the young'uns a shot, or to start dating girls, neither of which seems like a good solution. And I have no idea what I am doing reading a thread about relationships in the first place.

 

[tch001]

See, that makes me sad. As a single girl who plans on staying single for quite some time, I hate the lack of dating options out there. You guys can just go for the fresh meat, whereas I have never been interested in younger men. And the pool of semi-attractive single men my age or older is getting smaller and smaller. I guess I have two options - to try giving the young'uns a shot, or to start dating girls, neither of which seems like a good solution. And I have no idea what I am doing reading a thread about relationships in the first place.

ahmen. as a senior i feel i have much less potential hook up options than as a freshmen, while for the guys in my class it's the exact opposite. oh well, i guess i'l just be celibate for awhile.

 

[lazyjayn]

ahmen. as a senior i feel i have much less potential hook up options than as a freshmen, while for the guys in my class it's the exact opposite. oh well, i guess i'l just be celibate for awhile.

You could always try dating someone off campus. You know, like.. a real person? They take up more time, though, have jobs, and money, and usually something else to talk about instead of school. It's also a much larger pool to chose from.

But when I say take up more time, I mean much more. Somehow, no studying gets done when we see each other. Going out to dinner somehow kills the whole day's studying. Maybe that's just me tho.

 

[tch001]

You could always try dating someone off campus. You know, like.. a real person? They take up more time, though, have jobs, and money, and usually something else to talk about instead of school. It's also a much larger pool to chose from.

But when I say take up more time, I mean much more. Somehow, no studying gets done when we see each other. Going out to dinner somehow kills the whole day's studying. Maybe that's just me tho.

I was dating someone off campus (he graduated 2 years ago), but it didn't work out (see waay above post) due to the whole him wanting to get married and me wanting to go to medical school thing. so now I'm basically just looking for random hookups, not a real relationship.

 

[dutchman]

I was dating someone off campus (he graduated 2 years ago), but it didn't work out (see waay above post) due to the whole him wanting to get married and me wanting to go to medical school thing. so now I'm basically just looking for random hookups, not a real relationship.

"Random hookups" I endorse that

 

[kdburton]

See, that makes me sad. As a single girl who plans on staying single for quite some time, I hate the lack of dating options out there. You guys can just go for the fresh meat, whereas I have never been interested in younger men. And the pool of semi-attractive single men my age or older is getting smaller and smaller. I guess I have two options - to try giving the young'uns a shot, or to start dating girls, neither of which seems like a good solution. And I have no idea what I am doing reading a thread about relationships in the first place.

Don't get me wrong, I like older girls too... but just like you've stated it seems as though the pool of semi-attractive single women goes down as I age as well. If you plan on staying single for "quite some time" as you've stated and at the same time notice that your options are becoming limited then I guess its kind of your fault that you're not taking action Fortunately I am also attracted to girls that are younger than me, so if I was single, I don't think I'd have a problem finding someone else that was too.

 

[63768]

i plan on trying to make it work with my gf as i enter med school.

 

[pandulce321]

I started dating my boyfriend the summer before my freshman year of college. He is a year older than I am. We have now been dating for 3.5 years. He just began his first year at Brown medical school and I am in the process of applying and figuring out my next move. The past 2 months of our "new" long distance have been very hard, but fortunately I got to see him last weekend and it put everything into perspective. I love him very much, and know that I want to marry him, but now is not the right time. Please don't JUST get married to solidify a relationship. You can love someone just as much with or without a ring. Though I go to school in Florida, and may continue school in Florida, I truly believe that we will survive this period in our lives. The number one key to maintaining a relationship is communication, especially when you have to spend months away from the person you love. Best of luck to everyone doing their best to make it work, and I will let you know how it goes.

 

[Cirrus83]

fu**, I'm gonna have to loosen up and be somewhat of an dingus...thats gonna be hard

ur absolutely right though....all the girls I have had crushes on slept with these pure dinguses...makes me angry. And these were top of the line girls I'm talkin' about here, sleeping with the most immature jerks I have ever met in my life.

Dude, seriously, don't buy into that bs about having to be an a-hole. The guys you think are pure a-holes probably showed a pretty sweet side to the girls to land them anyways, they didn't just go up to them and act like jerks initially.

If you really want to land a girl, stop thinking about landing girls and just learn to be happy as hell being you. Once you totally love your life it'll just kinda show. Or at least don't hate your life quite as much as it sounds like you kinda do

Seriously, people like happy and confident people, and you're not going to be happy and confident if you're thinking about how the girls you know keep going out with a-holes, lol. And if they really go out with total jerks they'll get what they deserve for their dumb choices anyway.

Hit the gym, find a new hobby (not just studying, ahem), and just enjoy your own life, and I'm sure some girl will notice that nicely in shape and happy guy who has a cool hobby. Then when you think she's into you, just ask her out.

And this is from a guy who's been there and done that lol...

P.S. I just finally got a message back from this girl I think I like and I think likes me lol. I don't know if it's coincidence or what but I kinda stopped caring about girls for the last like 1 month and I've been focused on hitting the gym daily (or almost daily)....and it seems to be working out =P

 

[alwaysaangel]

fu**, I'm gonna have to loosen up and be somewhat of an dingus...thats gonna be hard

ur absolutely right though....all the girls I have had crushes on slept with these pure dinguses...makes me angry. And these were top of the line girls I'm talkin' about here, sleeping with the most immature jerks I have ever met in my life.

Theres an entire theory about this, you know - called the Ladder Theory. www.intellectualwhores.com